Also, the investigator is far better at the skill monkey side of things, so I'm fine with them being worse at dealing damage than a rogue.Vaguely useful in APs, Pretty good if the GM actually designs adventures around that in a homebrew campaign, utterly useless in PFS.
Not really. I have seen a successful Knowledge check in PFS prevent a TPK three times by avoiding a fight with a pass phrase that would have clearly killed the whole party. One time they even won the scenario easily with that encounter removed and all because they brought the iconic bard and he took 20. And that's just one of many uses for skills.
OK, so not utterly useless. But what did he bring to the non-optional fights?
That wasn't the optional encounter. It's actually another encounter that you can totally bypass with a Knowledge check. Other than that, he inspired courage.
Dot
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yeah, but in exchange for what is already considered the relatively poor damage output of a rogue some other sort of combat utility would be great. hence the call for some sort of debilitating strike.
Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!
Way ahead of you :)
Not really. I have seen a successful Knowledge check in PFS prevent a TPK three times by avoiding a fight with a pass phrase that would have clearly killed the whole party. One time they even won the scenario easily with that encounter removed and all because they brought the iconic bard and he took 20. And that's just one of many uses for skills.Also, the investigator is far better at the skill monkey side of things, so I'm fine with them being worse at dealing damage than a rogue.Vaguely useful in APs, Pretty good if the GM actually designs adventures around that in a homebrew campaign, utterly useless in PFS.
However in combat, which you almost always run into, you will want to be able to do something and it better darn well be fun. Studied strike isn't too useful and I wouldn't call it too fun either.
To be honest it sucks if you suck outside or inside of combat. Having a bit of both worlds always helps. Abilities that make you stand at the sidelines are always a downside imo. The game demands a bit of both, and while someone else can fill the role, that's not a garuntee nor a great thing to bank on.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better.No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.
Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.
I am leaning toward these three options right now.
1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).
Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.
I like the first option best. With an increase to Int modifier, I don't think the 24 hour restriction is onerous. How many fights per day are you fighting an opponent for more than 4 rounds?
I like the flavor direction that we are going here, and I love that it gives an accuracy bonus, as it addresses the "rogues can't hit anything" issue that people like to harp on. I see two problems: First, the current incarnation is tough on the action economy. It would be nice to drink an extract and study in the same round, for instance. Second, sneak attack has a certain inertia in the form of existing feat and item support.
However in combat, which you almost always run into, you will want to be able to do something and it better darn well be fun. Studied strike isn't too useful and I wouldn't call it too fun either.
Oh I don't disagree. In fact, levels 1 and 2 don't even have any combat abilities at all, and I was one of the first to point that out last round. I still think it needs something in those levels, and I agree the current Studied Strike is quite ineffective.
But we have to go into that discussion with our eyes open to the fact that being a better skill monkey is a HUGE advantage that should be a balance factor, rather than hand-waving it as meaningless.
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I just had a thought:
How come the Investigator's combat potential is measured up against a Rogue and not against its other parent: the Alchemist?
I just had a thought:
How come the Investigator's combat potential is measured up against a Rogue and not against its other parent: the Alchemist?
It's an interesting question--I'd say probably because it has pretty much all the Alchemist's out of combat, buff, and support abilities and more, so if it also was the alch's equal in a fight (say if it had Bombs as an alch instead of Studied Strike), it would obsolete the alchemist.
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yeah, but in exchange for what is already considered the relatively poor damage output of a rogue some other sort of combat utility would be great. hence the call for some sort of debilitating strike.Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!Way ahead of you :)
Like the Assassin's Death Attack, it'd be cool to observe your target for a turn or two before striking. If you waited the extra turn, you could use an investigator point to add punch to your attack to stagger, disable, or nauseate the foe.
;)
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yeah, but in exchange for what is already considered the relatively poor damage output of a rogue some other sort of combat utility would be great. hence the call for some sort of debilitating strike.Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!Way ahead of you :)
oh haha that was you that said that. i even quoted you above. :D though it appears Tirisfal has been time traveling.
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yeah, but in exchange for what is already considered the relatively poor damage output of a rogue some other sort of combat utility would be great. hence the call for some sort of debilitating strike.Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!Way ahead of you :)Like the Assassin's Death Attack, it'd be cool to observe your target for a turn or two before striking. If you waited the extra turn, you could use an investigator point to add punch to your attack to stagger, disable, or nauseate the foe.;)
Wow! Using your time machine to go back in time and one up me! Amazing!
:p
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yeah, but in exchange for what is already considered the relatively poor damage output of a rogue some other sort of combat utility would be great. hence the call for some sort of debilitating strike.Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!Way ahead of you :)Like the Assassin's Death Attack, it'd be cool to observe your target for a turn or two before striking. If you waited the extra turn, you could use an investigator point to add punch to your attack to stagger, disable, or nauseate the foe.;)Wow! Using your time machine to go back in time and one up me! Amazing!
:p
I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just stupid excited about this class :)))
But we have to go into that discussion with our eyes open to the fact that being a better skill monkey is a HUGE advantage that should be a balance factor, rather than hand-waving it as meaningless.
There are people who do combat and utility better than the rogue though. Bard still does a darn good job of keeping up with him in the skill department, if not better in some areas, and full casters still beat the investigator in everything(not that that's new...)
I'm not sure if its fair to compare him to the lowest common denominator and tell him to go lower though. Lots of other classes in the game.
I just had a thought:
How come the Investigator's combat potential is measured up against a Rogue and not against its other parent: the Alchemist?
Lots of reasons I'm sure. I'd still place the alchemist higher, vivisectionist in particular might be a more fair comparison since its the more rogue like. Vivisectionist has more ways to lay down its more powerful combat ability and many of the discoveries are very combat oriented. Bomb alchemist can lay down a cloud of status effects in a turn(sometimes novaing with them is just devastating. Entangled, Prone, Confused! All against AoE touch! In a stinking Cloud!) Alchemist also has access to defenses like self healing and mummification, and can grow additional appendages(arms/wings/Parasetic twin!) and can give his mutagen some oomph and it becomes almost all day later. 1 feat for a familiar is pretty cool too.
Edge! Alchemist!
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It's an interesting question--I'd say probably because it has pretty much all the Alchemist's out of combat, buff, and support abilities and more, so if it also was the alch's equal in a fight (say if it had Bombs as an alch instead of Studied Strike), it would obsolete the alchemist.I just had a thought:
How come the Investigator's combat potential is measured up against a Rogue and not against its other parent: the Alchemist?
Well, it would obsolete the Bomb-toting Alchemist, yes. The two main Alchemist builds I've seen are either Bombs (very strong), or melee with mutagen, either natural weapons or a big ol' 2-hander (pretty strong).
Now, I think most would say that the Alchemist is a lot stronger in combat than the Rogue. However, since the Investigator is the baby of the Alchemist and the Rogue, it can't supersede either, which leaves it in a very awkward position. It has to be worse than the Rogue combat-wise, because it's better at it utility-wise, but that means it's a lot worse than the Alchemist.
I'm rambling a little here, but the gist of it is that the poor Investigator is shackled to having a weak class as a parent and isn't allowed to be better than it, forcing it even further out of the picture as far as combat ability.
Removed post. Again, folks, keep it constructive.
That's uhm.....hrm.As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
Agreed.
A bit nonplussed by some design decisions but ... I'm a bit lost for words. Maybe taking this off a sneak attack damage scale?
I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better.No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.
Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.
I am leaning toward these three options right now.
1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).
Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.
I think the standard action to initially activate studied combat it is the way to go. It's a nastily cost to pay for this sort of ability, but it's thematic, and this is a class actively focused on non-combat abilities.
That being said though, what if, to sweeten the pot a little, studied strike gave the equivalent of the minimum roll to damage on every attack against a studied strike target, in addition to the full wad of dice at the end?
It's still a worse deal than what a rogue gets across the board:
Rogue- Round 1 only gets one hit in, and may not get sneak damage if the fighter is still getting into position. Past that, rogue's adding damage every round until the target drops.
Investigator- Round 1 no damage gets done. Round 2, hits land a little more reliably and for slightly more damage than usual, round 3, hopefully finish things off by doing rogue-like damage.
May actually play out over just 2 rounds, in which case hey, you're clearly doing worse than the rogue. May play out over 4 or 5, but if it is the rogue's finishing things up early. It also adds an element of thoughtfulness to weigh the timing of your finishing strike, and evokes the splash damage on alchemist bombs mechanically to some degree.
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But, bear in mind that at any point after level 3 you could take the Mutagen Discovery. From then on, whenever there is trouble you could don your tweed hat and say, "Elementary my dear Wa-ARHGHABARLGLEBARLEGL!" and turn into a scary monster.
i giggled like a schoolgirl at that image, but it still doesnt change the fact that the investigators class-unique combat shtick is pretty terrible.
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Hmm, Stephen raises a good point. Instead of complaining, let me figure out some ideas as to how the Investigator could be improved.
Current outstanding issues, as I see it:
-No combat ability until 4th level.
-Very restrictive combat ability from 4th level onwards.
Let's consider the first one. At 1st level, the Investigator gains three abilities: Alchemy, Inspiration, and Trapfinding. For the most part, these are utility abilities. It doesn't gain its first combat-focused ability until 4th level.
Solution: Inspiration is the core Investigator ability. Trapfinding isn't powerful enough to merit moving, therefore how about pushing Alchemy back to 4th level? There's no Caster Level - 3 Alchemist spell list class at present. This means that Investigators no longer have their utility front-loaded, and it gives us a spot to insert some combat ability.
Alright, that done, let us carefully consider how to increase the Investigator's ability to be useful in combat without outshining its place as a support/skill monkey character.
My suggestion: Give them Studied Combat at 1st level, move action activate, and some minor scaling static bonuses to hit/damage.
Then, as they level up, grant them an ability called Debilitating Strike, and increase its number of uses as they level up. What to base this on? Antipaladin Cruelty ability. Perhaps a slightly worse version of it. But let them end their Studied Combat on the target (possibly make them immune for 24 hours), and let them try to apply one of the Debilitating Strike conditions that they've chosen.
There you go, combat ability, rogue still has better damage, but it lets the Investigator deliver a blow to the stomach that Nauseates a target.
Thoughts?
(I'm at work, so this is hastily typed, but the idea is there)
You're off the marker on a few things.
For starters, from 1-3 you're not like a Fighter at all. You're a crappy Alchemist.
Then from 4-20, you're also a crappy Alchemist.
But, bear in mind that at any point after level 3 you could take the Mutagen Discovery. From then on, whenever there is trouble you could don your tweed hat and say, "Elementary my dear Wa-ARHGHABARLGLEBARLEGL!" and turn into a scary monster.
The funniest part about this is that as-is, using a Str Mutagen pretty much precludes you from using Studied Combat with an Int lower than 20.
So it makes you WORSE.
You're off the marker on a few things.
For starters, from 1-3 you're not like a Fighter at all. You're a crappy Alchemist.
Then from 4-20, you're also a crappy Alchemist.
But, bear in mind that at any point after level 3 you could take the Mutagen Discovery. From then on, whenever there is trouble you could don your tweed hat and say, "Elementary my dear Wa-ARHGHABARLGLEBARLEGL!" and turn into a scary monster.
The funniest part about this is that as-is, using a Str Mutagen pretty much precludes you from using Studied Combat with an Int lower than 20.
So it makes you WORSE.
Unless you're Dex based instead.
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True, true. But Dex based melee combat is hardly the best fighting style out there anyway. Years of Rogues struggling to get by has taught us that as a collective, no?
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Unless you're Dex based instead.
Weapon Finesse so there's a feat tax in that direction since you can't use Studied Strike ranged.
So what I propose is Studied Combat be gained at level 1, letting you get the INT bonus AC and To Hit bonus early. This means that you can walk into combat and not be immediately murdered, and in fact actually make yourself useful. Then, at level 4 you receive the ability to end your Studied Combat early in exchange for adding a status effect to your target as well as dealing damage. Then, every level where you would currently gain an additional d6, you may apply an additional status effect before your Studied Combat goes down. Sure, you'll never out-damage a rogue, but if at level 15 you go up against a Stone Giant Fighter with four attacks, and walk away a round later with the Stone Giant...
my main problem with this suggestion (and other similar ones) is that i want to be applying debuffs early in the fight not after i've been hitting the enemy for a couple rounds. if the debilitating strike ends studied combat, i don't want to have to spend another standard or move reapplying it.
True, true. But Dex based melee combat is hardly the best fighting style out there anyway. Years of Rogues struggling to get by has taught us that as a collective, no?
Honestly I think to be combat viable it's better to just ignore studied strike's existence completely and focus on utilizing extracts in combination with Inspiration.
Then, at higher levels where a 26 or 30 Int is certainly feasible use it as a swift action to gain +8 to attacks with arcane stike and power attack behind it.
One way to look at this is a very high level ability you happen to gain at 4th.
So in a sense it can be treated like a vivisectionist without feral mutagen and focusing on an ability that makes your attacks hit more often.
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I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better.No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.
Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.
I am leaning toward these three options right now.
1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.
3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).
Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.
I like option 2 the best, and option three the least ( although they all make reasonable options). I also want to support the idea of applying debuffs as an alternative to extra damage. I think this idea is extremely flavorful, and fits my mental image for this ability as described prior to the release of the revised document.
While you have stated that you have seen that certain people want the ability to apply to ranged attacks, I just wanted to note my support of that idea.
Now hopefully I get a chance to playtest the class before the end of the playtest period.
True, true. But Dex based melee combat is hardly the best fighting style out there anyway. Years of Rogues struggling to get by has taught us that as a collective, no?Honestly I think to be combat viable it's better to just ignore studied strike's existence completely and focus on utilizing extracts in combination with Inspiration.
Then, at higher levels where a 26 or 30 Int is certainly feasible use it as a swift action to gain +8 to attacks with arcane stike and power attack behind it.
One way to look at this is a very high level ability you happen to gain at 4th.
So in a sense it can be treated like a vivisectionist without feral mutagen and focusing on an ability that makes your attacks hit more often.
at the cost of being useful and actually hitting things every other turn (which unless the bonus is BETTER than simply (full-)attacking for a turn, is kind of a waste)
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True, true. But Dex based melee combat is hardly the best fighting style out there anyway. Years of Rogues struggling to get by has taught us that as a collective, no?Honestly I think to be combat viable it's better to just ignore studied strike's existence completely and focus on utilizing extracts in combination with Inspiration.
Then, at higher levels where a 26 or 30 Int is certainly feasible use it as a swift action to gain +8 to attacks with arcane stike and power attack behind it.
One way to look at this is a very high level ability you happen to gain at 4th.
So in a sense it can be treated like a vivisectionist without feral mutagen and focusing on an ability that makes your attacks hit more often.
Being forced to ignore the main combat ability of a class until high levels sits poorly with me. I'd rather just sidestep the whole issue and not play the class at all at that point.
Also, the investigator is far better at the skill monkey side of things, so I'm fine with them being worse at dealing damage than a rogue.
Totally. This class can't out sneak attack the rogue, but it certainly out skill-monkeys it. I'm brash enough to suggest that this class out skill monkeys the bard, even.
I like the class and am happy with the revision.
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So, skimming through the thread....
I look at the Studied Combat/Strike like gaining an advantage on a foe then twisting the knife as I get in that last hit.
It would be nice to have it at first level somehow, perhaps at a static plus to damage turned into 1d6 at 4th level? (Plus 1 at first, plus 2 at third?) and a min of plus one to hit for the studied combat?
I am playing a Rogue Investigator right now and this seems to be on par with her, better with the inspiration hits.
My question to the designers, would you be able to qualify for Sleepless Detective from this class?
True, true. But Dex based melee combat is hardly the best fighting style out there anyway. Years of Rogues struggling to get by has taught us that as a collective, no?Honestly I think to be combat viable it's better to just ignore studied strike's existence completely and focus on utilizing extracts in combination with Inspiration.
Then, at higher levels where a 26 or 30 Int is certainly feasible use it as a swift action to gain +8 to attacks with arcane stike and power attack behind it.
One way to look at this is a very high level ability you happen to gain at 4th.
So in a sense it can betreated like a vivisectionist without feral mutagen and focusing on an ability that makes your attacks hit more often.
Being forced to ignore the main combat ability of a class until high levels sits poorly with me. I'd rather just sidestep the whole issue and not play the class at all at that point.
Fair enough. I'm just working with what I got now. I already posted my fix suggestions up-thread.
Instantly forgotten of course. I just don't want sneak attack back in any way shape or form.
A few alternative thoughts on making Studied Combat work:
Grant Studied Combat at 1st level. Change the ability so that the duration does not start to 'tick' until the Investigator actually attacks the studied target. This gives the Investigator a +1 insight bonus on attack rolls through 3 level, which is of some benefit but still requires a round to set up. Remove the "once every 24 hours" restriction.
Grant Studied Strike as planned at 4th level, but have it increase every third level (2d6 at 7th, 3d6 at 10th, and so on, to a maximum of 6d6 at 19th level). This puts him significantly behind a Rogue in precision damage. However, because he no longer has a "once every 24 hours restriction" he always has the option to step back, re-analyze his target, then step in again to strike another precise blow.
Now that Studied Strike is every three levels, it leaves a couple of empty levels (10th, 14th, and 16th). To fill them, I'd make the following suggestions:
Have Studied Combat improve so that at 10th level, the Investigator can study one additional target. This would further improve to include a third target at 14th level.
At 16th level, add in a new ability - Surgical Critical: When the Investigator lands a critical blow against one of his Studied Combat targets, he has the option to immediately end the duration of his current Studied Combat against that target in order to increase the critical multiplier of his weapon by 1 for the attack (to a maximum of x4). This ability can only be used against a target once ever 24 hours.
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I really believe that iconic combat abilities should come at 1st level or near enough.
For instance, let's say you get Studied Combat at 1st. Move action, small bonus to attack and damage.
Then on 4th level you get Studied Strike. You've spent 3 levels familiarizing yourself with the mechanics of Studied Combat, and at this point you have a pretty good idea how to work it into most combats. Then you have this other option.
Heh. I bet there's a bunch of 17 int PFS character sheets being ripped up right now...
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Honestly, I think the Investigator should lift out the Slayer's Favored Target ability and run. 1st level, move action to initiate (providing that beard-stroking "hmn" moment), small bonus on attack and/or damage and skills.
It's interesting; both classes have very similar themed abilities (I take a moment and study the way you act); but the Investigator one is extremely convoluted and severely limited.
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Why don't you just make it:
Standard Action Use
+ Int to Attack
+ Int to Damage
Lasts Int Rounds
Only 1 Use per 24 hours per target
Remove the Sneak Attack-Esque abilities.
Keep the Quick Study Talent.
Either Keep Studied Defense or Modify it just always apply
Add additional talent that allows it to apply to saving throws.
Perhaps add a sneak attack mechanic in the form of talents?
Or something like that?
I really believe that iconic combat abilities should come at 1st level or near enough.
For instance, let's say you get Studied Combat at 1st. Move action, small bonus to attack and damage.
Then on 4th level you get Studied Strike. You've spent 3 levels familiarizing yourself with the mechanics of Studied Combat, and at this point you have a pretty good idea how to work it into most combats. Then you have this other option.
I wholly agree. I think granting Studied Strike at 1st is not imbalanced and gives it a much-needed low-level combat boost (without altering the overall power of the ability itself at end-game). At best, with a TWF Investigator, it grants a +1 on two attacks (and maybe an AoO) for 3 levels, but requires a standard action to set up.
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.
I never thought I'd say that, but... Bringing back Sneak Attack is actually a good idea. It's simpler and (surprisingly) more effective. Make it 1d6 at 1st level, 2d6 at 5th level and an extra d6 every 5 levels thereafter. That's half the Rogue's SA progression, so it won't step on their toes too much. SA is more about flavor than power anyway.
Spending a Standard action (or even a Move action) for a weaker version of SA is... Well... extremely weak. It'd still be incredibly weak even if it was full SA progression.
Studied Strike could be used as a swift action and lose the "once every 24h" limitation and it'd be okay. Maybe add a roll to it, so it's not an auto-success. Something like a knowledge check.
BTW, is there any reason for the limited list of Rogue Talents available to Investigators? It's not like RT are very good to start with, so limiting them seems rather unnecessary. If it's just for the "benefit" of Rogues, I gotta say it's a lost cause.
To be honest... IMO, any attempt to keep Rogues relevant through niche protection is a lost cause.
Here's a question: reading studied strike, it looks like you get to make one attack against your opponent and then its over.
For example, I study my target as a move action and gain the attack roll bonus. On my next turn, I hit my target and decide to use studied strike, dealing extra precision damage. Its not implied by studied strike itself, but studied combat seems to imply that this one attack with studied strike ends the benefits of studied combat for that target. Is that how its intended to work?
Yep. That's what it says.
Here's a question: reading studied strike, it looks like you get to make one attack against your opponent and then its over.
For example, I study my target as a move action and gain the attack roll bonus. On my next turn, I hit my target and decide to use studied strike, dealing extra precision damage. Its not implied by studied strike itself, but studied combat seems to imply that this one attack with studied strike ends the benefits of studied combat for that target. Is that how its intended to work?
Yup.
As currently written, the best use of Studied Strike is to wait until the very last attack you're guaranteed to have before Studied Combat's duration ends, then use it.