Revised Investigator Discussion


Class Discussion

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Designer

Rynjin wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:

Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?

Mreikon wrote:
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)

Having 16 Int is now considered "dumping" it.

Who knew?

Investigator has officially slid from my favorite of the new classes, to one I would never consider playing.

Really? Because of a joke? I think you were taking my comment a tad too seriously. I did put a smiley face.

Right now that's what it says. I'm not saying it is not a potential problem, I was just answering a question about the current draft.

To be honest, I wanted to invert the duration. Have you level be the duration of the effect, and the Int mod be the bonus. I'm still on the fence about that one, and it would clear up the problem. As would just making it Int bonus.

If anything, the ability errors slightly too much on the side of caution. But I want people to play it, tell us what they like and don't like.

Oh, and not get too much in a huff when I don't give you the exact answer you want.


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Anyone got a breath of life?


Cheapy wrote:

Personally, it's more about being an interesting character with the 15 point buy that sean has mentioned as the default for designing against.

Oops.

Really?

I've been using 20. We always use 20. Everyone I know uses 20. PFS uses 20.

Guess I missed that memo. If I do get around to any more testing I'll try to remember to use 15.


Cheapy wrote:

Personally, it's more about being an interesting character with the 15 point buy that sean has mentioned as the default for designing against.

As an aside, I really wish that whoever calculated the average point buy of 4d6 drop lowest way back in 3.0 (the average is actually slightly over 20) had not made the huge math error that led to that default, as it makes it troublesome for groups that like to roll stats if classes wind up being overpowered when given more point buy. Fortunately, I've found that Paizo products are usually pretty well-balanced around the possibility of having more point buy, and it makes the most sense for that trend to continue, to keep making products stress-tested for a range of possible stats.


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:


Really? Because of a joke? I think you were taking my comment a tad too seriously. I did put a smiley face.

Right now that's what it says. I'm not saying it is not a potential problem, I was just answering a question about the current draft.

To be honest, I wanted to invert the duration. Have you level be the duration of the effect, and the Int mod be the bonus. I'm still on the fence about that one, and it would clear up the problem. As would just making it Int bonus.

If anything, the ability errors slightly too much on the side of caution. But I want people to play it, tell us what they like and don't like.

Oh, and not get too much in a huff when I don't give you the exact answer you want.

The two sentences were mostly unrelated. One, a sarcastic reply to your joke, the other a statement of fact that the Investigator as it currently stands is not a class I would play.

Designer

Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.


"The investigator must be able to see the target well
enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach
such a spot. An investigator cannot use studied strike
against a creature with concealment."

I can see that first sentence leading to ALL sorts of trouble. Maybe just keep it simple and no studied strike against concealment.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ouch. While I loved the idea of basing Studied Combat and Studied Strike on the new Sherlock Holmes movies, the implementation really makes the Investigator unsuited for combat games, i.e. all official Paizo published adventures. I'll try to playtest a bit with the class as it is, but the old version was clearly better and seemed balanced with the other "Advanced" classes from the APG.

Poison Lore also seems strange. An ability which lets you destroy loot for no gain? ^^ I think "pouring the poison onto the ground" also works well in destroying it. :p


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I like the IDEA of Studied Strike if it needs something to set it apart from the Rogue. The implementation is just (besides being pretty much unusable/broken currently) lackluster at best. If it were activated more quickly, or lasted longer by default, or...who am I kidding, BOTH, it would be kinda neat. A bonus on attack rolls is always welcome.


I like the flavor of Studied Combat\Strike. I'm very iffy on the way it's been implemented though.

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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.

That would be disappointing. I'd say the majority of people are complaining about the current implementation of Studied Combat/Strike as opposed to the removal of Sneak Attack. It's a step in the right direction, just - as you say - perhaps it errs too much on the side of caution.

FWIW, this is my initial impression of how I'd alter Studied Combat/Strike to make it something I'd use:
-Standard/Move/Swift progression built into ability tied to Investigator level, perhaps could use Inspiration for the next tier of speed.
-Duration based off of either full Int mod or Investigator level.
-Int mod to damage.
-Precision damage once per round, or once per duration. Perhaps could gain extra uses with Inspiration.

As it is, it's just far too limited in usefulness.


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Rynjin wrote:
I like the IDEA of Studied Strike if it needs something to set it apart from the Rogue. The implementation is just (besides being pretty much unusable/broken currently) lackluster at best.

This.

Dark Archive

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.

Yeah that may be best. I mean no disrespect but right now the ability is a none starter for my groups Investigator.


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Kevin Mack wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.
Yeah that may be best. I mean no disrespect but right now the ability is a none starter for my groups Investigator.

I disagree. I don't want to see it changed back to Sneak Attack. I want to see a useful and flavorful ability unique to the Investigator.

If that means I need to get some feedback on the specific ability so that it can be potentially revamped (even though I feel as a player or GM that it might be somewhat painful), then so be it. :)


Arkhios wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:

Is there any chance you can comment on the duration of it?

Mreikon wrote:
As Studied Combat is worded currently, it does nothing without Int of at least 18, because effects that last 1 round end at the beginning of investigator's next turn.
As of right now, this is correct. Don't dump Int, and try not to take Int damage. :)

You can't be serious. I mean, really? How is it that a class whose abilities are by far spread-out to several other factors than *Int only*, and you suggest that we players, if we have the 20 point-buy rule (as the majority of Pathfinder players do have, since Pathfinder Society), to simply overly dump our other stats in favor of just one class feature, which as of now, is worded to work with expending every second round for observation, and become mediocre in other areas of expertise we're supposed to be good at as Investigators.

I'm terribly sorry if I offend you but that's just ridiculous.

He was Joking

Designer

ubiquitous wrote:
That would be disappointing. I'd say the majority of people are complaining about the current implementation of Studied Combat/Strike as opposed to the removal of Sneak Attack. It's a step in the right direction, just - as you say - perhaps it errs too much on the side of caution.

I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the benchmark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had, or so it seems.


I personally like the fact that its not sneak attack (and so different from SA), but in its current incarnation, its not good enough to use. Not having as restrictive circumstances as sneak attack to benefit from it is definitely a plus, but only effecting a target once every 24 hours is too limiting and making it melee only really reduces your weapon options. I think changing the duration to level dependent and the bonus to Int mod would certainly help as well. Maybe starting at a lower level but increasing the damage dice advancement to every 4 or 5 levels instead?


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ArenCordial wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
I like the IDEA of Studied Strike if it needs something to set it apart from the Rogue. The implementation is just (besides being pretty much unusable/broken currently) lackluster at best.
This.

Indeed.

Dark Archive

Xaratherus wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.
Yeah that may be best. I mean no disrespect but right now the ability is a none starter for my groups Investigator.

I disagree. I don't want to see it changed back to Sneak Attack. I want to see a useful and flavorful ability unique to the Investigator.

If that means I need to get some feedback on the specific ability so that it can be potentially revamped (even though I feel as a player or GM that it might be somewhat painful), then so be it. :)

Fair enough but it feels like it should probably be something that can be used at Melee or range. At the moment that is my groups only problem with it they wouldent mind the other stuff but the has to be a Melee part is the the deal breaker.


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.

I think I speak for me when I say, "some of us just want a Vivisectionist that isn't ooky and evil."

Though I should warn you, the community seems to not like: Teamwork, Flanking, or Sneak Attack.

So you'd probably only be making me happy in the long run.

Dark Archive

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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:
That would be disappointing. I'd say the majority of people are complaining about the current implementation of Studied Combat/Strike as opposed to the removal of Sneak Attack. It's a step in the right direction, just - as you say - perhaps it errs too much on the side of caution.

I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the benchmark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had, or so it seems.

I would be perfectly happy with the ability if it was swift to activate and Int modifier duration. Don't be discouraged if our initial response wasn't that positive. I definitely love the flavor and wouldn't like to see that soulless sneak attack come to ruin a good idea.


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Stephen, My biggest beef with it is , what is it there for? the damage once every 24 hours and once every 2 rounds at most makes the amount of damage so low that you should pretty much never use it.

Maybe I just have a different mindset than most, but with this setup it appears as a cute ability that would just see zero use, because it's too weak to depend on and seems to be a lot of idea's to waste on something that becomes a "Kay I've got nothing else left might as well use this" last ditch effort ability.


ChainsawSam wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
Hmmm. Well given the first hour of comments, my inclination right now is to change it back to sneak attack with a every three level progression.

I think I speak for me when I say, "some of us just want a Vivisectionist that isn't ooky and evil."

Though I should warn you, the community seems to not like: Teamwork, Flanking, or Sneak Attack.

So you'd probably only be making me happy in the long run.

Lol, But that's what matters! ;)


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the bench mark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had it it seems.

To be fair, sneak attack itself is underwhelming, and every class needs to be good at combat in someway because combat happens a lot.


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Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:
That would be disappointing. I'd say the majority of people are complaining about the current implementation of Studied Combat/Strike as opposed to the removal of Sneak Attack. It's a step in the right direction, just - as you say - perhaps it errs too much on the side of caution.

I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the benchmark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had, or so it seems.

Dropping 24 hour reuses and boosting it to Int Mod duration would probably be the best option at this point. The player can tough it out till the next level when he can Study as a move action till then.

I'll also throw my hat in with everyone else saying that I like the ability's flavor as well and would not like it turned back into sneak attack.


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I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better. Show an alternative that's virtually unusable to make people herd back to the original choice. Like many others, the nature of the action economy has made the investigator pass from one of my favorite new classes to one of my least favorite.

As I seem to understand from the various comments, here is a summed-up version of the problems with studied strike:

1) Can only be used one every 24 hours: huge limitation

Studied combat:
2) Duration off intelligence; since it takes a standard action to study, any duration under 2 rounds CAN NOT BE USED. Since the duration is 1/2 int modifier, you need minimum 18 int for it to last into the second round (where you can attack). This is the first time I've seen a secondary caster REQUIRE such a high value on their casting stat. It also makes it difficult to compensate for 3/4 bab & the now "lower" to-hit stat.

As I see it, the investigator goes from a good combo of fluff & mechanics to pure fluff. I would not play it in it's current iteration. (unfortunately, all the local playtest groups filled up to fast for me to get a chance to test it out)


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:


I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the benchmark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had, or so it seems.

Well, yeah the benchmark is Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack is like the lowest benchmark in the game for "viable combat boosting ability for a 3/4 BaB class". It's not very good, but it's workable.

Anything worse than Sneak Attack had better have a damn good reason to justify its existence in the first place.

The problem with Studied Combat/Strike, even if you remove the 24 hour re-use thing OR lower the time (not both) is that it's too little benefit for giving up a Standard Action. 3 (2 effectively) rounds of boosted to-hit is cool...but if it takes a Standard or doesn't work on the target after it stops, it's not a big thing.

And it wouldn't be like Sneak Attack at all if you removed both, not sure where that comes from. Studied Strike only works once a round.

Hell, remove Studied Strike COMPLETELY and make Studied Combat better if that makes you feel all right. That's a better alternative than letting a poor combat ability limit your design because of mechanical similarities to another class.


My players and I are glad to see that sneak attack was removed. The mechanics of Studied Strike are disappointing though. I was expecting something more akin to a competence bonus to hit, damage and combat maneuvers that scaled with the either a successful knowledge check or with level similar to a bards inspire courage. I am not talking whole d6's here, just a +1 to +5 bonus.


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That's a bit more conspiratorial than I'd say.

The ability fits wonderfully, thematically.


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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:
That would be disappointing. I'd say the majority of people are complaining about the current implementation of Studied Combat/Strike as opposed to the removal of Sneak Attack. It's a step in the right direction, just - as you say - perhaps it errs too much on the side of caution.

I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the benchmark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had, or so it seems.

why not make it a move action and increase the duration to int modifier? that makes the talent unnecessary but useful. start the progression at level one and make it even three levels after 1. that would put you at +7d6 at 19th level. hardly broken. it would also be nice if you could use studied strike once a round at least without ending studied combat. OR it should end studied combat, but studied combat should also give you a static damage bonus of half your level or your INT mod or something so that the extra accuracy you're gaining can actually be effective.

EDIT: another OR!

Cheapy wrote:
Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, I gotta agree that studied strike and combat are kinda "meh" but I think it's a great opportunity to start coming up with other options along this flavor.

What if, after using studied combat, studied strike kicks in as a small bonus that increases as you connect hits on your opponent to simulate learning more about your opponent as you fight him?

So:

Rnd 1: Use studied strike, move up

Rnd 2: Using the improved attack bonus you connect and learn so you get a dmg bonus on your next hits, say d4

Rnd 3: Connect again, dmg bonus goes up to d6

And so on.

This feels a bit more like the Holmes movie to me.


Cheapy wrote:

That's a bit more conspiratorial than I'd say.

The ability fits wonderfully, thematically.

Heck, it might not even be conscious on their part. The best manipulators dont even try to be, they just are.

As for Rynjin's comment, I agree with it. Sneak attack (most precision damage for that matter) is pretty unreliable. I have not seen rogues play often, but when I do, they always seem to come across SOMETHING immune to sneak attack.

That would have been acceptable for an investigator since it has other toys. As it stands now... sigh.

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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

As I pointed out earlier, giving the Investigator an accuracy buff doesn't make it feel very powerful. If all you're hitting for is 1d6+strength (rapier, and strength isn't the Investigator's primary stat if they need 18 Int), it's almost not worth contributing at higher levels.

Additionally, at higher levels, if you're having to spend a Standard - though probably a Move action - to use an integral combat class ability, you're going to be left in the dust.

Another part of me is a little disappointed in that it's just more precision damage. It's being compared to Sneak Attack because it's practically the same thing, just with different requirements for its usage: spending an action in comparison with flanking/denied Dex bonus.

I was really hoping for some new mechanics.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the bench mark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had it it seems.

The knee-jerk reaction of anyone facing their nice toys being taken away and replaced with something they perceive as weaker is - of course - going to be clamouring for the return of whatever it was in the first place.

Cheapy wrote:
Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!

I'd be really happy with this too. If we're going back to the fighting style from the Sherlock Holmes films - which have been pointed out plenty of times as an inspiration - he's not only inflicting additional damage on targets, but - more importantly - he's targeting them in such a way to inflict crippling blows.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What if we combined Studied Defense as an AND instead of OR option, switched the bonus from half class level to Int mod, dropped Studied Strike entirely and replaced it with a flat damage bonus equal to class level, and removed the duration but only allowed it to be used once a day per every 3 levels or so? Then it at least has a bit of oomph to it, but is balanced by having it available only a limited number of times.

Grand Lodge

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Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:

I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the benchmark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had, or so it seems.

Well, it's only been an hour and this is the internet. So there hasn't been much time for people to fiddle with the new revision and ... it's the internet. *shrug*

Personally, I think Studied Strike has a lot of promise. The one big advantage it has over sneak attack is that it isn't situation dependent. You don't have to flank, or hit a flat-footed enemy. I like that.

What if you added an Inspiration point cost? Spend a point of Inspiration to activate Studied Strike, but then let it last for longer and give the investigator the opportunity to make multiple strikes against a single opponent? If using the ability requires spending a point from a limited daily pool, would that justify some extra oomph?

The Exchange

Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

Personally, having built and played an Investigator this past weekend, the short duration and once/24 hours/enemy made me give my computer screen a very disapproving look. At level 5 with an 18 int, I can take one turn to study the target and then use the next turn to get a +2 bonus on my attack roll and add 1d6 damage, and then I have to go find a new target if I want my ability to be useful again.

Increasing the duration to rounds=int mod alone would make this feel more useful to me. Removing the 24 hour prohibition would make this more useful when there is only one target, like a dragon or other massive boss monster. I don't think it should start as a swift action, if that is what you're implying

Also, one thing that occurred to me when I was eagerly waiting for the revisions is that the studied strike could be used to inflict status conditions instead of add damage, ala the Sherlock movie fight scenes (deafen with a strike to the ears, sicken with a strike to the stomach, etc.) either by expending the buff as you have written, or by spending inspiration during the studied combat buff. Just my thoughts


cuatroespada wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:
That would be disappointing. I'd say the majority of people are complaining about the current implementation of Studied Combat/Strike as opposed to the removal of Sneak Attack. It's a step in the right direction, just - as you say - perhaps it errs too much on the side of caution.

I hear what you are saying, I do. But to be honest, most people seem to want something that is quick, deals more damage often, and in the same ways that sneak attack does.

Studied strike has an entry fee, is more more focused on one foe, and it mostly a accuracy buff.

I would be comfortable either decreasing the activation to a swift or taking away the 24 hour reuses (but not both), and increasing the duration to Int modifier, but that's about as far as I would go. Anything more, and it just starts looking like sneak attack with a faster progression than the investigator should have.

And my guess is that most folks are not going to think that goes far enough, because the benchmark is sneak attack attack as the first iteration had, or so it seems.

why not make it a move action and increase the duration to int modifier? that makes the talent unnecessary but useful. start the progression at level one and make it even three levels after 1. that would put you at +7d6 at 19th level. hardly broken. it would also be nice if you could use studied strike once a round at least without ending studied combat. OR it should end studied combat, but studied combat should also give you a static damage bonus of half your level or your INT mod or something so that the extra accuracy you're gaining can actually be effective.

EDIT: another OR!

Cheapy wrote:
Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!

Alrighty my jaw is hitting the floor that you suggest that this is usable, so I'm going to assume I'm missing something.

7d6 once a round a 19th level? so over 2 rounds you get one standard action with an accuracy buff, and one full round of regular non damage buffed attacks and a single 7d6 damage buff?.

I do consider myself a bit of a power gamer so I think my standards for damage output are high, but I don't even have a player at my table that would consider that as anything other than a virtually useless contribution to the fight.

As something to add actual use to the conversation though, I do really like the idea of createing buff's and debuffs as a way of createing a meaning impact on the battle instead of more damage.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

How about a compromise? Put sneak attack back in (with the reduced progression), remove studied strike, and change studied combat into an ability that allows the investigator to treat a target as flat-footed for the purpose of sneak attack. Keep the general mechanics of studied combat (actions to activate, only works on a target once a day, etc), but either switch the duration and the bonus around, or use the full int modifier for the duration.

This gives some of the flavor that people are looking for, and helps the people concerned about the limitations of SA.

I also spent all of 30 seconds thinking about it, so it's probably horribly (under|over)powered.

Designer

williamoak wrote:
I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better.

No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.

Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.

I am leaning toward these three options right now.

1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).

Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.


I think the problem is, it isn't particularly useful in combat. If you're a ranged investigator it's useless, and if you're a melee investigator it's a one time damage buff per enemy. When you consider that a +4-+6 accuracy bonus becomes less and less useful as you gradually go up the levels, and that accuracy only boosts damage in terms of how often you actually hit, only the one time damage boost is actually useful. Being one time per creature per day means that it's only useful against creatures that are running seriously low on hp, and because it ends your accuracy bonus the only sensible time to use it is at the end of the last full round attack of the duration.

Personally, I reckon that INT bonus to attack and level to damage, for INT bonus rounds duration would probably be fine (puts it on a level with smite evil, but without the double damage against dragons and outsiders, and it doesn't last as long), with the ability to use it in ranged combat would make it actually useful. Because as it stands, for the kind of character this class is supposed to represent, a Rogue with the Investigator archetype gets the knowledge skills to pull his weight there and at level ten can pick up Hunter's Surprise and basically do this class's trick better.

I know you want us to judge this class on its own merit, so that's what I'm trying to do - and as far as I can see, there's no reason at all to play it in PFS. The elixirs you get in the early levels aren't particularly useful in combat, and it takes you until level 4 to get a class ability that makes it worth wading into the melee. I'd play this class in an investigation heavy AP, such as Carrion Crown, but that's because I'd be useful to the party outside of combat.


See the problem I have with options One and Two is that neither of them really fixes the issue (though One is a lot better). I think most of the problems would be solved with option Twoone though. I REALLY don't see the reason for the "Once per 24 hour" restriction.

@Chris: I don't think the Investigator would do too well in CC. When combat comes up in CC it's of the "You will win quickly or you will f+!&ing DIE" variety.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ubiquitous wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!
I'd be really happy with this too. If we're going back to the fighting style from the Sherlock Holmes films - which have been pointed out plenty of times as an inspiration - he's not only inflicting additional damage on targets, but - more importantly - he's targeting them in such a way to inflict crippling blows.
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Also, one thing that occurred to me when I was eagerly waiting for the revisions is that the studied strike could be used to inflict status conditions instead of add damage, ala the Sherlock movie fight scenes (deafen with a strike to the ears, sicken with a strike to the stomach, etc.) either by expending the buff as you have written, or by spending inspiration during the studied combat buff. Just my thoughts

I like this idea a lot, but thinking about analogues from existing classes took me away from rogue and towards monk. The movie Holmes wasn't just shanking a flat footed opponent and watching them keel over with a gushing stab wound (rogue's sneak attack or current investigator's studied strike), he was smacking them in the ears, punching them in the kidney, bashing them in the jaw and causing them to be stunned/fatigued/sickened/staggered/blind/deafened/paralyzed (monk's stunning fist).


Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
williamoak wrote:
I'm getting the impression that this is just a way to convince people that sneak attack was better.

No. Not at all. It was a shot at giving something different, within the same vein, but something that people wanted.

Personally, I would rather keep a version of studied strike. I think it is interesting.

I am leaning toward these three options right now.

1) Make it a move action to start, and keep it so you can only use it on the same target once every 24 hours. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

2) Keep it a standard, and remove the 24 hour prohibition. Increase the duration to Int modifier.

3) Go back to sneak attack with a 1/3 level increase (to a maximum of 6d6 at 18th).

Comments, questionnaire, and playtest feedback all told us that the sneak attack progression it had in the last iteration was too much. It was fairly universal. So there is where we are sitting right now.

Why not make it similar to other pre-existing "studied-combat" like abilities, like the lore warden's "know thy enemy" or the student of war's "martial stances". It's basically the same fluff, isnt can be used for as long as you like, & gives a similar bonus.

Designer

Rynjin wrote:
See the problem I have with options One and Two is that neither of them really fixes the issue (though One is a lot better). I think most of the problems would be solved with option Twoone though. I REALLY don't see the reason for the "Once per 24 hour" restriction.

::sigh::

If we make it a move action, and get rid of the 24 hour prohibition, as long as you stand still (or even if you don't when you investigator talent out of it) you will basically be getting the bonus to attacks and damage every round without any concern for positioning.

The design team thought that was too good, in general, but particularly with the faster precision bonus progression.


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What if instead of extra damage, Studied Strike applied a Dirty Trick debuff?

I'd still like to see the action economy improved, but that would seem more flavorful, more useful, and less competitive with the Rogue all in one shot.


Talcrion wrote:

Alrighty my jaw is hitting the floor that you suggest that this is usable, so I'm going to assume I'm missing something.

7d6 once a round a 19th level? so over 2 rounds you get one standard action with an accuracy buff, and one full round of regular non damage buffed attacks and a single 7d6 damage buff?.

I do consider myself a bit of a power gamer so I think my standards for damage output are high, but I don't even have a player at my table that would consider that as anything other than a virtually useless contribution to the fight.

As something to add actual use to the conversation though, I do really like the idea of createing buff's and debuffs as a way of createing a meaning impact on the battle instead of more damage.

Well, I was actually working under the assumption that we were already making it a move action and increasing the duration to INT mod rather than half... so you'd still be able to use studied strike the first round.

and i wasn't really suggesting that that would fix the class so much as it was more in line with the power level of some of the poorer archetypes whereas the ability as it stands makes me cry.

EDIT: though on second thought if you're going to limit it that much it should just be normal progression.


CrazyGnomes wrote:
ubiquitous wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Personally, I think I'd rather the focus shift away from damage to conditions or debuffs. Fight smarter, not harder!
I'd be really happy with this too. If we're going back to the fighting style from the Sherlock Holmes films - which have been pointed out plenty of times as an inspiration - he's not only inflicting additional damage on targets, but - more importantly - he's targeting them in such a way to inflict crippling blows.
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Also, one thing that occurred to me when I was eagerly waiting for the revisions is that the studied strike could be used to inflict status conditions instead of add damage, ala the Sherlock movie fight scenes (deafen with a strike to the ears, sicken with a strike to the stomach, etc.) either by expending the buff as you have written, or by spending inspiration during the studied combat buff. Just my thoughts
I like this idea a lot, but thinking about analogues from existing classes took me away from rogue and towards monk. The movie Holmes wasn't just shanking a flat footed opponent and watching them keel over with a gushing stab wound (rogue's sneak attack or current investigator's studied strike), he was smacking them in the ears, punching them in the kidney, bashing them in the jaw and causing them to be stunned/fatigued/sickened/staggered/blind/deafened/paralyzed (monk's stunning fist).

Agreed. That's actually interesting. A staggered Fighter only gets one attack, regardless of their BAB. Maybe studied strike could improve your threat range, and then later on you get an improved version that lets you pick up Critical feats without the Critical Focus feat.

Edit: I'd also suggest letting you count your Investigator level as your BAB for the purposes of such feats.

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