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I'm just going to put this out there, if you don't like the core monk, several 3pp have already published fixed monks. I'd rather we not focus on negativity and waste the devs time, and focus on making the brawler something a lot of people will want to play.
Letting awesome blow affect opponents one size larger would open up a lot of options. It's already better than monster Awesome Blow, which only affects smaller opponents. But I'm wondering if there's some space for an Improved Awesome Blow feat, that adds a +2 bonus to the maneuver check and lets you affect opponents one step larger.
What I am actually proposing is that the brawler can take all the combat feats that she could've taken previously. Then she also has unique brawler-specific choices.
As to what is gained:
- greater diversity as more options are available to the brawler (both combat feats and "special" disciplines)
- a natural vehicle to present class specific options to the brawler (as opposed to feats), consider the number of rage powers available and how such a big list is implausible to offer as feats. Additionally it is a natural vehicle to offer supernatural/magical upgrades to the class (e.g. Elemental Rage rage power)
- rule locality, it is very easy to find rage power and rogue talents (etc) for their respective classes - they are all listed with their class; class-specific feats however aren't always as obvious to find
Brawler disciplines are not actually "new". It is a new name, but for a familiar class feature (rage powers, rogue talents, ninja tricks, oracle revelations, slayer talents, alchemist discoveries, magus...
While I like this idea in general, I don't think it works too well for Brawler.
While Arcanist and Witch are doing weird magicky things, Investigator is spending points, Alchemist is transmuting its body, and Barbarian is doing things that only work while raging, the Brawler here mostly would want his "Brawler Talents" to improve his combat maneuvers and melee fighting abilities... And the vast majority of these would be "You gain improved X as a bonus feat" or "You gain greater X as a bonus feat." Sure, there would be some other things in there as well, but I feel like you'd need to justify why these are things that /only/ a Brawler can pick up.
Personally, I loathe the Rogue Talent class feature. Half of them would work fine on any character as a bonus feat. What makes Rage Powers cool is that they only work when raging- they're not bonus feats, they modify a class feature you have. Alchemist Discoveries very often modify bombs, and when they don't they're either new spells or give you a weird magic mutagen that wouldn't make sense for anyone who wasn't an Alchemist.
So my challenge to you is coming up with... Lets say three "Brawler Talents" to start that would "make sense" as a brawler talent, but not be something that it feels like other people should be able to pick up by spending a feat. (And don't use Rogue Talents as an example, please: Most of them SHOULD be available as feats.)
I'm just going to put this out there, if you don't like the core monk, several 3pp have already published fixed monks. I'd rather we not focus on negativity and waste the devs time, and focus on making the brawler something a lot of people will want to play.
Keep in mind the two main reasons folks want monks fixed by Paizo in core:
1 - PFS
2 - GMs that do not like to bring in 3PP
Fixing monk issues in core means making use of the fixes in the vast majority of games without skipping PFS play or having to jump through hoops to convince your group to bring in non-core material.
That said, yes, this is the Brawler discussion. Let's talk brawling.
You could pretty much redesign the Rogue class using feats, creating a new Skill category of feat and a family of feats that modify Sneak Attack. But honestly, I'd rather go the other way; the fighter would be improved in some ways by having some unique abilities that maybe should not be general feats. If more than one class should have a talent, you republish it. But we're not redesigning the fighter or the rogue, or even the monk.
I don't see the justification to have to create and then playtest a whole slew of new Brawler Talents, most of which are just "Bonus feat: pick a feat from this list," when its parent classes are both feat-based with a handful of flavorful, unique features. If the Brawler has deep enough access to feats, they will shine.
I disagree on the brawler having better defense. The monk in my playtests and builds always has better defenses (with the possible exception of Flat AC). From my stand-point the brawler has better HP and better damage - that's essentially the only point where it stands out from the monk. (It also has a much bigger feat pool for its bonus feats and of course Martial Maneuvers.)
The brawler is not prohibited from light armour and shields, and at most levels those more than beat the monks wisdom AC bonus, and that gives him better AC. He has better hit points too. Worse touch AC, but better flat-footed AC. These are the defences that matter most for a melee class, and that's what both Brawler and monk are.
Outside that, the monk does have spell resistance, but that's as much a handicap as an asset; he also has evasion, and a better Will save. However, the Brawler can compensate for the both with his extra feats so he's not significantly weaker.
As a side thought, I don't think it is reasonable to ask for the brawler to be a less unarmed damaging class than the monk.
Read all that I wrote about it, please. If you reduced the scaling of the Brawler's unarmed damage slightly and then gave them weapon training on it, they'd be doing MORE damage than the monk, and hitting more often.
Which would you rather, 2d10 damage, or 2d8+3 at +3 to hit?
It's essentially a bonafide unarmed specialist.
Like the monk was meant to be, only with a bit of wisdom and mysticism thrown in?
The monk does many other things as well,
Yes, but those are gravy, not meat, and not very good gravy at that because while most help the monk, few help the rest of the party. As such the monk's limited offence is the only sure thing he brings to the team.
but the brawler just goes around punching and kicking really hard.
So did the unarmed fighter archetype. In that respect, this role is already catered to, so why do we need the brawler? What does the brawler bring that isn't already catered for? From what I can tell it's yet another unarmed specialist that's a lot better than being an unarmed specialist than the core rulebook unarmed specialist, and isn't significantly worse in any other areas.
That's the problem. This is yet another class that takes what the monk can bring to the party and trumps it soundly. I don't have a problem with the Brawler actually being an effective unarmed fighter, I have a problem with the fact that the monk isn't when he's meant to be.
Anyway, as someone wiser than I said above, this is BRAWLER discussion, so I'll get off my monk soapbox now.
What I am actually proposing is that the brawler can take all the combat feats that she could've taken previously. Then she also has unique brawler-specific choices.
As to what is gained:
- greater diversity as more options are available to the brawler (both combat feats and "special" disciplines)
- a natural vehicle to present class specific options to the brawler (as opposed to feats), consider the number of rage powers available and how such a big list is implausible to offer as feats. Additionally it is a natural vehicle to offer supernatural/magical upgrades to the class (e.g. Elemental Rage rage power)
- rule locality, it is very easy to find rage power and rogue talents (etc) for their respective classes - they are all listed with their class; class-specific feats however aren't always as obvious to find
Brawler disciplines are not actually "new". It is a new name, but for a familiar class feature (rage powers, rogue talents, ninja tricks, oracle revelations, slayer talents, alchemist discoveries, magus...
While I like this idea in general, I don't think it works too well for Brawler.
While Arcanist and Witch are doing weird magicky things, Investigator is spending points, Alchemist is transmuting its body, and Barbarian is doing things that only work while raging, the Brawler here mostly would want his "Brawler Talents" to improve his combat maneuvers and melee fighting abilities... And the vast majority of these would be "You gain improved X as a bonus feat" or "You gain greater X as a bonus feat." Sure, there would be some other things in there as well, but I feel like you'd need to justify why these are things that /only/ a Brawler can pick up.
...
So my challenge to you is coming up with... Lets say three "Brawler Talents" to start that would "make sense" as a brawler talent, but not be something that it feels like other people should be able to pick up by spending a feat. (And don't use Rogue Talents as an example, please: Most of them SHOULD be available as feats.)
Referring to the rogue talents: I agree, there should be a simple feat that grants anybody access to 1 rogue talent. That is something we can hope for.
As to the brawler disciplines: that is easy. You just need to give options that cater to the brawler's class abilities:
- Adrenalin Rush - while making use of Martial Maneuvers, the brawler gains a +2 bonus to all attack rolls
- Awesome Power - the brawler is considered one size category larger for the purpose of using his Awesome Blow class feature. A brawler may select this discipline up to two times.
- Brutal Knockout - when a foe struck by Knockout successfully saves against the ability, he is sickened for 1d6 rounds
- Evolving Maneuvers - while making use of Martial Maneuvers, the brawler may change one feat through Martial Maneuvers as a swift action. The duration remaining does not change, this use does not count against her daily uses of Martial Maneuvers, and she must still satisfy all prerequisites of the new feat chosen.
- Iron Training - the brawler is considered 3 levels higher for the purpose of her brawler's strike ability
- Naked Brawler - the brawler gains double the dodge AC bonus from her AC Bonus class feature, this only applies when she is not wearing any armor and not making use of shields
- Versatile Flurry - select a single martial weapon that the brawler has proficiency in, the brawler may use that weapon in a flurry. The brawler may pick this discipline a second time, if she does, she may select from exotic weapons as well.
These could all be implemented as feats as well, and I'd welcome them all, but I don't think I'll have too much trouble coming up with twenty more. A given book may offer as many as three or so class specific feats and nobody would mind - but if you dedicate 10 or more feats to one class then people might pipe up. In contrast, nobody bats an eye when 10 new rage powers are added.
Adrenalin Rush and Evolving Maneuvers would be my primary examples of how a constant stream of new disciplines could be added that mimic the rage powers in that they only grant a bonus in a limited situation rather than all the time.
I disagree on the brawler having better defense. The monk in my playtests and builds always has better defenses (with the possible exception of Flat AC). From my stand-point the brawler has better HP and better damage - that's essentially the only point where it stands out from the monk. (It also has a much bigger feat pool for its bonus feats and of course Martial Maneuvers.)The brawler is not prohibited from light armour and shields, and at most levels those more than beat the monks wisdom AC bonus, and that gives him better AC. He has better hit points too. Worse touch AC, but better flat-footed AC. These are the defences that matter most for a melee class, and that's what both Brawler and monk are.
In contrast, all my monks have potions or wands of mage armor from level 1 onwards and have the barkskin ki power. Although the brawler can kickstart her AC with light armor, she also has a limit on maximum dexterity that can be applied. The brawler also has a harder time picking up natural AC unless she chooses to be a weapon-based brawler (as the amulet of mighty fists usually takes precedence). The brawler also forfeits her AC Bonus class feature when using a shield, so that offsets the gains a little bit.
As a side thought, I don't think it is reasonable to ask for the brawler to be a less unarmed damaging class than the monk.Read all that I wrote about it, please. If you reduced the scaling of the Brawler's unarmed damage slightly and then gave them weapon training on it, they'd be doing MORE damage than the monk, and hitting more often.
Which would you rather, 2d10 damage, or 2d8+3 at +3 to hit?
Ah, there we are talking about different things, I'm referring to your disappointment in the brawler being better at unarmed smacking around than the monk.
I'd certainly take 2d8+3 at +3 to hit over 2d10. As is, the brawler already does about 30% more damage than a monk, according to my simulations and calculations before considering a weapon training upgrade.
Additionally, the brawler archetypes may be considerably more potent than many monk archetypes: any archetype that gives up flurry leaves the monk at 3/4 BAB, whereas the brawler would still retain a full BAB. A "master of many styles brawler" would on that simple basis be a greater force than the equivalent monk.
In contrast, all my monks have potions or wands of mage armor from level 1 onwards and have the barkskin ki power. Although the brawler can kickstart her AC with light armor, she also has a limit on maximum dexterity that can be applied. The brawler also has a harder time picking up natural AC unless she chooses to be a weapon-based brawler (as the amulet of mighty fists usually takes precedence). The brawler also forfeits her AC Bonus class feature when using a shield, so that offsets the gains a little bit.
A strength-based build will not have a massively high dexterity anyway. I do agree the qingong monk would have an advantage over a core monk with the barkskin power, but armour supplies other advantages.
A shield can for one feat for proficiency (or perhaps none if you use a mithral shield) give you a +2 AC bonus, and another +5 enhancement on top, and up to +5 in properties.
Light armour can supply +4 armour bonus, another +5 in enhancement bonus, and up to +5 in properties (brawling armour, anybody?).
That's +16 on AC there.
The monk can get +8 from bracers, with no properties, and his wisdom bonus. A dexterity based monk could get more out of dexterity but he's going to pay for that in damage. That means the monk would need a wisdom of 26 to equal the brawler, and that isn't likely to happen if he places anything like as much emphasis on the physical traits - which he needs to do in order to have anything like offensive parity.
I don't discount the mage armour solution, but it's not a long term solution - it's overtaken by bracers of armour at mid-level, and is easily debuffed. It also requires ready access to potions in order to restock, which some campaigns do not have provision for. Qingong monk can get the balance out of their powers, but that's the balance, and not every monk is a qingong monk - and the brawler still has all those armour and shield properties...
Ah, there we are talking about different things, I'm referring to your disappointment in the brawler being better at unarmed smacking around than the monk.
I'd certainly take 2d8+3 at +3 to hit over 2d10. As is, the brawler already does about 30% more damage than a monk, according to my simulations and calculations before considering a weapon training upgrade.
Additionally, the brawler archetypes may be considerably more potent than many monk archetypes: any archetype that gives up flurry leaves the monk at 3/4 BAB, whereas the brawler would still retain a full BAB. A "master of many styles brawler" would on that simple basis be a greater force than the equivalent monk.
In other words, we're agreed the monk as "unarmed specialist" is left standing in the cold by the brawler...
Mechanically Sean mentioned that Extra Martial Maneuvers as a feat will exist. I'm concerned that this is a feat tax, as there are nowhere near enough uses per day. The only playtest responses I recall that didn't complain about the limited uses, were the ones that either didn't use it at all (due to unfavorable action economy) or those who fully refresh all stats on the brawler between every encounter.
Actually, I said that "not having enough uses of martial maneuvers at level 1/2/3" and "there will be an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat" are separate issues. IOW, I agree that the brawler should have more uses by default, but should also be able to take Extra Martial Maneuvers in addition to that.
I also agree that "I can temporarily gain two feats" costing two uses of the ability feeds into that problem, which can partially be solved by granting more uses of the ability and partially by changing how the "gain multiple feats" version of the ability works/costs.
The class can't do anything that it can really call its own until 13th level.
This is a valid criticism.
These could all be implemented as feats as well, ...
Which is exactly the reason they should be feats. There's no reason to create a similar. parallel game mechanic along side feats when you could just make them feats, and by making them feats they become usable to other classes with related abilities, such as archetypes that dip into the abilities of these hybrid classes.
For example, say you have a barbarian archetype which trades something for martial maneuvers. As you'd have it, that barbarian wouldn't be able to access any of the brawler disciplines because they're locked away within the brawler class. Sure, you could create a feat that allows that archetype (as well as other classes/archetypes who gain access to the martial maneuvers ability) to be able to select a brawler discipline, but then you're just creating a feat that allows someone to emulate a non-feat that should have just been a feat in the first place.
Since martial training is a flag, rather than an ability in itself, is there perhaps room at 1st level for fast movement?
Since martial training is a flag, rather than an ability in itself, is there perhaps room at 1st level for fast movement?
Inquiring minds wish to know!
I think theres definitely a place for a non-scaling fast movement bonus at 1st level. This guy should be a little quicker than most, but not supernaturally quick.
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Wild idea for Brawlers to have something to call their own...
What if Brawlers just flat up don't provoke attacks of opportunity for performing combat maneuvers? I'm not talking about the Improved X feats that give +2 on top of that or the great X feats that then do more things, but what if we just say at X level they don't provoke. They'd still need improved whatever for the +2 and to qualify for greater, but this would mean that with no investment you can just reposition, drag, trip, disarm, whatever your opponent. I've found on fighters there's often times when you want to just take the AoO to perform a maneuver. Last game I was in, I took an AoO to trip an opponent (by intentionally moving through his threatened area first so that if his AoO hit I wouldn't lose my trip attempt), and I use bull rush plenty, and the allure of a class that can just do that no penalty seems really cool.
Another thing I'd REALLY like Brawlers to be able to do, either just by class features or by feat options, is hit foes into each other to damage them both.
Oh, man, what if "awesome blow" included other creatures as obstacles you could throw people at?
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Wild idea for Brawlers to have something to call their own...
What if Brawlers just flat up don't provoke attacks of opportunity for performing combat maneuvers?
This... is a REALLY good idea! It gives a way for the Brawler to Brawl without an intelligence of 13 while still making the Combat Expertise feat chain relevant for a Brawler who want to focus more on maneuvers. It gives the Brawler a neat trick that reinforces the class's name while not being overpowered. I like it!!
This... is a REALLY good idea! It gives a way for the Brawler to Brawl without an intelligence of 13 while still making the Combat Expertise feat chain relevant for a Brawler who want to focus more on maneuvers. It gives the Brawler a neat trick that reinforces the class's name while not being overpowered. I like it!!Wild idea for Brawlers to have something to call their own...
What if Brawlers just flat up don't provoke attacks of opportunity for performing combat maneuvers?
This is good stuff. SKR, please take note of this idea.
Mechanically Sean mentioned that Extra Martial Maneuvers as a feat will exist. I'm concerned that this is a feat tax, as there are nowhere near enough uses per day. The only playtest responses I recall that didn't complain about the limited uses, were the ones that either didn't use it at all (due to unfavorable action economy) or those who fully refresh all stats on the brawler between every encounter.
Actually, I said that "not having enough uses of martial maneuvers at level 1/2/3" and "there will be an Extra Martial Maneuvers feat" are separate issues. IOW, I agree that the brawler should have more uses by default, but should also be able to take Extra Martial Maneuvers in addition to that.
I also agree that "I can temporarily gain two feats" costing two uses of the ability feeds into that problem, which can partially be solved by granting more uses of the ability and partially by changing how the "gain multiple feats" version of the ability works/costs.
The class can't do anything that it can really call its own until 13th level.This is a valid criticism.
Oooh, nice. I misunderstood your intent the first time too.
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Perhaps Martial Maneuvers should be half-level + Con? That would make sense to me. Knockout might then also use Con as its stat.
In contrast, all my monks have potions or wands of mage armor from level 1 onwards and have the barkskin ki power. Although the brawler can kickstart her AC with light armor, she also has a limit on maximum dexterity that can be applied. The brawler also has a harder time picking up natural AC unless she chooses to be a weapon-based brawler (as the amulet of mighty fists usually takes precedence). The brawler also forfeits her AC Bonus class feature when using a shield, so that offsets the gains a little bit.A strength-based build will not have a massively high dexterity anyway. I do agree the qingong monk would have an advantage over a core monk with the barkskin power, but armour supplies other advantages.
A shield can for one feat for proficiency (or perhaps none if you use a mithral shield) give you a +2 AC bonus, and another +5 enhancement on top, and up to +5 in properties.
Light armour can supply +4 armour bonus, another +5 in enhancement bonus, and up to +5 in properties (brawling armour, anybody?).
That's +16 on AC there.
The monk can get +8 from bracers, with no properties, and his wisdom bonus. A dexterity based monk could get more out of dexterity but he's going to pay for that in damage. That means the monk would need a wisdom of 26 to equal the brawler, and that isn't likely to happen if he places anything like as much emphasis on the physical traits - which he needs to do in order to have anything like offensive parity.
I don't discount the mage armour solution, but it's not a long term solution - it's overtaken by bracers of armour at mid-level, and is easily debuffed. It also requires ready access to potions in order to restock, which some campaigns do not have provision for. Qingong monk can get the balance out of their powers, but that's the balance, and not every monk is a qingong monk - and the brawler still has all those armour and shield properties...
You're neglecting the +5 AC the monk gets as bonus AC. The brawler also gets +4 bonus AC but only if he doesn't use a shield (so we can neglect that aspect). The +5 monk bonus AC means 18 Wisdom is enough to get to brawler's AC and that much is pretty much expected for a high-level monk, even if he focuses on Strength. Any additional money spent by the monk to increase Wisdom and Dexterity will have him pull ahead of the brawler.
Perhaps Martial Maneuvers should be half-level + Con? That would make sense to me. Knockout might then also use Con as its stat.
Doesn't seem like it would be enough. On average, that's only going to be 2-3 more uses, which translates out to really ONE more use (for 3 Feats).
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Con to Natural armor might be worth considering:
1) The amulet slot is needed for mighty fists, so an alternative natural armor source is useful
2) Several posts have commented that the armor class looks low
This would also fit thematically with the big bruiser who you cannot hurt
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Just a couple of suggestions (these may have already been posted, so sorry if I missed them).
What if the brawler got a special ability that let them qualify for stunning fist, elemental fist, or touch of serenity (a choice between the three, not just one as the only choice) at first level? I mean, saving throws being based off of wisdom makes them more MAD, but stunning fist is a prerequisite for feats in the dragon style feat chain, elemental fist is a nice way of adding a little (not a lot, but some), extra damage, and touch of serenity is a will save, and thus can be lower v. a lot of enemies (with better fort/ref than will). This could give them something cool to use at low level.
What if they could follow Adam Teles suggestion when they got maneuver training, and perhaps could use martial maneuvers for improved maneuver feats without using additional abilities? To make this class better at maneuvers.
Overall, I really like the class, but I agree that there isn't much at low levels that makes the class unique. I mean, if they got an ability that let them inflict statuses at lower levels that are less severe than unconscious (such as stunned, entangled, blinded, etc.) at low levels that eventually evolved into knockout it might really help the class be unique.
You could give the Brawler a "parrying" maneuver, as a swift action the Brawler could roll a CMB check against an enemy within his threat area to negate an attack. Each parry would replace an AoO. Combined with combat reflexes the brawler could beat an enemy bloody and prevent any counter attacks, would work better on weaker mook monsters but could slow down a tougher one.
Perhaps Martial Maneuvers should be half-level + Con? That would make sense to me. Knockout might then also use Con as its stat.Doesn't seem like it would be enough. On average, that's only going to be 2-3 more uses, which translates out to really ONE more use (for 3 Feats).
2 to 3 more uses would still put it in the realm of feasible play. At 10th level it may not mean a full 3-feat use in every encounter, but you could get around three encounters worth out of it. With Con to daily uses, I could see myself only needing one Extra Maneuvers feat to feel comfortable about my brawler.
These could all be implemented as feats as well, ...Which is exactly the reason they should be feats. There's no reason to create a similar. parallel game mechanic along side feats when you could just make them feats, and by making them feats they become usable to other classes with related abilities, such as archetypes that dip into the abilities of these hybrid classes.
For example, say you have a barbarian archetype which trades something for martial maneuvers. As you'd have it, that barbarian wouldn't be able to access any of the brawler disciplines because they're locked away within the brawler class. Sure, you could create a feat that allows that archetype (as well as other classes/archetypes who gain access to the martial maneuvers ability) to be able to select a brawler discipline, but then you're just creating a feat that allows someone to emulate a non-feat that should have just been a feat in the first place.
I think I'm sold on the feats, provided that the ACG makes a committed effort to have a big set of brawler-related class feats. Not just feats that the brawler will like, but the paladin and ranger take them too - I mean a good dozen feats that tie directly into the brawler's mechanics: flurry and martial maneuvers. (The flurry feats would also be a boon for the monk.)
Slightly off-topic: will there be "old" class support in the ACG? I don't mean feats that happen to be available for everybody, but, for example, will there be a monk archetype that gives up flurries in favor of martial maneuvers, a paladin archetype that gets blessings, and so forth?
Generated a 12th level Brawler for a playtest this weekend. Below are my thoughts:
-Still incredibly excited for this class. Despite needing some tweaks, I would play this class as is.
-As has been mentioned, I'm 12th level, and I don't feel like I have any signature abilities. Brainstorming things I wish I could do.
I keep coming around to a Mighty Strike idea. Make a single attack as
a standard action, if the attack hits, you can initiate a combat
maneuver as a free action that doesn't provoke an attack of
opportunity. I think that this also feeds well into Awesome Blow.
Bring it on: Gain a bonus on attack equal to the number of enemies
that threaten you.
Brawler's Toughness: Each time the Brawler is dealt damage by a melee
attack, he may convert one point of damage into nonlethal damage.
-I know that this has already been discussed a bunch, but I still think that there can be a different end around to make Brawler's viable against damage reduction that feels more in line with the less mystical brawler. Maybe bypassing Damage Reduction equal to half Brawler level, and at a certain point it applies to hardness?
Slightly off-topic: will there be "old" class support in the ACG? I don't mean feats that happen to be available for everybody, but, for example, will there be a monk archetype that gives up flurries in favor of martial maneuvers, a paladin archetype that gets blessings, and so forth?
Yep, we mentioned that in this ACG blog.
(I'd assume we'd say so in the official product page for the ACG, but it doesn't exist yet. :))
Some sort of short range AOE would be nice. Like a shockwave punch to the ground that knocks people off their feet in a frontal cone.
-j
Wild idea for Brawlers to have something to call their own...
What if Brawlers just flat up don't provoke attacks of opportunity for performing combat maneuvers? I'm not talking about the Improved X feats that give +2 on top of that or the great X feats that then do more things, but what if we just say at X level they don't provoke. They'd still need improved whatever for the +2 and to qualify for greater, but this would mean that with no investment you can just reposition, drag, trip, disarm, whatever your opponent. I've found on fighters there's often times when you want to just take the AoO to perform a maneuver. Last game I was in, I took an AoO to trip an opponent (by intentionally moving through his threatened area first so that if his AoO hit I wouldn't lose my trip attempt), and I use bull rush plenty, and the allure of a class that can just do that no penalty seems really cool.
+1 I really like this idea, it Also makes all those Combat menuvers seem more viable as a whole rather than having to specialize. Which in turn i feel, evokes more of the down in the dirt brawler imagery.
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Just spitballing an idea here,
At level 6, she may spend a number of points from her pool equal to the number of attacks she would make in a full attack to instead replace each attack with a combat maneuver that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, using each attack's respective base attack bonus. This does not allow her to Two-Weapon fight with maneuvers. She may also at 6th level, expend one point as a move action to gain 2 combat feats for one minute, or 1 point as a swift action to gain the use of a single combat feat.
At level 10, he may gain the use of 3 feats combat as a move action, 2 feats as a swift action, or 1 feat as a free action by expending one point.
[
2 to 3 more uses would still put it in the realm of feasible play. At 10th level it may not mean a full 3-feat use in every encounter, but you could get around three encounters worth out of it. With Con to daily uses, I could see myself only needing one Extra Maneuvers feat to feel comfortable about my brawler.
I still don't feel like it should have less uses per day at an equivalent level than stuff like Smite, Wild Shape, and Judgement. It's simply not as powerful as those abilities in pretty much any circumstance you could care to name.
What it is, is versatile in combat. Which is cool. As long as that versatility is available whenever you need it (or want it), it doesn't need to be powered up to that level. Number of uses and modularity can make up for the lack in raw power.
But, this argument is mostly irrelevant. We've already been told that uses per day will probably be upped, and I have more fingers crossed for a "significantly" in front of that.
These could all be implemented as feats as well, ...Which is exactly the reason they should be feats. There's no reason to create a similar. parallel game mechanic along side feats when you could just make them feats, and by making them feats they become usable to other classes with related abilities, such as archetypes that dip into the abilities of these hybrid classes.
I actually agree with Sean here, even though I'm the person that suggested Brawler Disciplines.
But that's because when I suggested the disciplines, it wasn't to give the Brawler more feat-like abilities. It's *not* supposed to be like Rogue Talents. It's *not* supposed to be like Rage Powers.
What my suggested Disciplines were for were to let a Brawler tailor create his own Unarmed Strike method. That's it.
So you give up doing 2d10 damage, and instead gain the ability to add weapon special features to your attack routine, or increase your critical range/multiplier. Note how every single one of my suggestions were focused on wielding weapons, and mimic'd almost all the weapon special features (specifically: Blocking, Deadly, Disarm, Distracting, Grapple, and Weapon Finesse).
These are absolutely *not* appropriate as feats, because a Monk doesn't need to boost his unarmed strike like that.
It was a "kill two birds with one stone" idea: give a Brawler a little more of a way to self-differentiate, and to differentiate from the other unarmed fighters (specifically the Monk's flurry).
Tossing in more feat-like ideas into disciplines just clouds over my suggestion.
*Edit*
If you took out the "chooseable" factor to my suggestion, then this is how I'd look at changing the Unarmed Strike damage table for Brawlers:
(Note: Increases occur at the same time the normal table damage dice increases).
01 . . 1d6 20/x2
02 . . 1d6 20/x2
03 . . 1d6 20/x2
04 . . 1d6 19-20/x2
05 . . 1d6 19-20/x2
06 . . 1d6 19-20/x2
07 . . 1d6 19-20/x2
08 . . 1d6 19-20/x2, blocking, disarm
09 . . 1d6 19-20/x2, blocking, disarm
10 . . 1d6 19-20/x2, blocking, disarm
11 . . 1d6 19-20/x2, blocking, disarm
12 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, disarm
13 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, disarm
14 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, disarm
15 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, disarm
16 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, deadly, disarm, grapple
17 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, deadly, disarm, grapple
18 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, deadly, disarm, grapple
19 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, deadly, disarm, grapple
20 . . 1d6 19-20/x3, blocking, deadly, disarm, grapple, maneuvers treat as one size larger
Then, give the option to do 2d6 damage per attack when not TWF (hasted gives 5x 2d6 plus crits/specials), and you've got a neat, competitive alternative to Monk's attacks (ki hasted 8x 2d10 but low crit and no specials).
Slightly off-topic: will there be "old" class support in the ACG? I don't mean feats that happen to be available for everybody, but, for example, will there be a monk archetype that gives up flurries in favor of martial maneuvers, a paladin archetype that gets blessings, and so forth?
Yep, we mentioned that in this ACG blog.
(I'd assume we'd say so in the official product page for the ACG, but it doesn't exist yet. :))
Thank you very much. The blog post wasn't 100% clear to me with respect to what lengths the ACG goes to support the new material in existing classes.
...
If I may suggest: a monk archetype that gives up flurries for martial maneuvers, should please count the monk level as his BAB while using martial maneuvers. (Though I have a hard time imagining how the monk would stay competitive without an additional mechanic that is more damage orientated. I guess you could remove the ki pool instead to grant martial maneuvers; then you essentially have an unarmored brawler.)
Edit: Actually, let me re-think that last part: if a monk archetype gets martial maneuvers, then I'd suggest having it run on the monk's ki (if you actually remove the ki pool, then you suddenly have to add brawler's strike as well).
One thing I just noticed: In the description of the Brawler's Unarmed Strike ability, it mentions that both that they receive Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and also that they can choose to deal lethal or nonlethal damage with their unarmed strikes. The latter is also a part of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat description, so it seems redundant (although I can see a reason for the redundancy, I suppose, if only to keep the information in one spot. But I just thought I'd mention it.)
On second thought, I guess the Monk has it in their description, too, so never mind. It's probably by design, and not oversight.
I still think they shouldn't be feats, but new combat options.
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Suggestions for the class:
- Instead of giving magic/material properties to his attacks, why not make the Brawler's attack penetrate an increasing amount of damage reduction and hardness?
- Give him some damage reduction and status immunity.
- Knockout seems a bit sudden. The brawler could get debilitating strikes as he levels up.
1st level options:
• Fatigued;
• Shaken;
• Sickened;
• Stunned.
4th level options:
• Dazed;
• Bleed;
• Staggered.
7th level options:
• Exhausted;
• Frightened;
• Nauseated.
10th level options:
• Blinded;
• Deafened;
• Paralyzed;
• Stunned.
13th:
• Knockout;
• Petrified.
16th:
• Death;
Suggestions for the class:
- Instead of giving magic/material properties to his attacks, why not make the Brawler's attack penetrate an increasing amount of damage reduction and hardness?
- Give him some damage reduction and status immunity.
- Knockout seems a bit sudden. The brawler could get debilitating strikes as he levels up.
1st level options:
• Fatigued;
• Shaken;
• Sickened;
• Stunned.4th level options:
• Dazed;
• Bleed;
• Staggered.7th level options:
• Exhausted;
• Frightened;
• Nauseated.10th level options:
• Blinded;
• Deafened;
• Paralyzed;
• Stunned.13th:
• Knockout;
• Petrified.16th:
• Death;
I'd love this. It'd also be something that makes the brawler feel a little more unique as he levels up.
Suggestions for the class:
- Instead of giving magic/material properties to his attacks, why not make the Brawler's attack penetrate an increasing amount of damage reduction and hardness?
- Give him some damage reduction and status immunity.
- Knockout seems a bit sudden. The brawler could get debilitating strikes as he levels up.
1st level options:
• Fatigued;
• Shaken;
• Sickened;
• Stunned.4th level options:
• Dazed;
• Bleed;
• Staggered.7th level options:
• Exhausted;
• Frightened;
• Nauseated.10th level options:
• Blinded;
• Deafened;
• Paralyzed;
• Stunned.13th:
• Knockout;
• Petrified.16th:
• Death;
I like this, too. Blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened are all able to be applied by adding Dirty Trick to a strike. Adding in the ability to add other combat maneuvers would also allow you to add grappled, disarmed, prone, broken (to weapon or armor), pushed, pulled, etc. I also noticed that you had Stunned at first level and at 10th level, but I'm guessing that was just a typo.
I love the idea of having it scale up through the level up to knockout, and maybe killing punch at a higher level.
- Instead of giving magic/material properties to his attacks, why not make the Brawler's attack penetrate an increasing amount of damage reduction and hardness?
This was brought up and the devs said no. Bypassing certain types of DR is a quick check. (Do I, or don't I?) Bypassing a set amount of DR requires extra math every time. (Also, it would invalidate the comparatively low DR/- that is supposed to protect against all attacks, and it would start bypassing DR/Epic from low levels, which would be weird.)
You're neglecting the +5 AC the monk...
Check! I missed that the brawler's bonus is contingent on the brawler not using a shield, so the two factors I assumed all but cancelled out do not. Still the brawler has access to light armour and potentially up to +5 of properties in addition to a slightly better AC bonus from armour than the monk can manage, but I do now agree the monk can probably manage a slightly better AC at high level.
At mid to low level, I still think the brawler has the edge on AC, or at least an equal footing, because of the low cost of that initial +4.
Wild idea for Brawlers to have something to call their own...
What if Brawlers just flat up don't provoke attacks of opportunity for performing combat maneuvers? I'm not talking about the Improved X feats that give +2 on top of that or the great X feats that then do more things, but what if we just say at X level they don't provoke. They'd still need improved whatever for the +2 and to qualify for greater, but this would mean that with no investment you can just reposition, drag, trip, disarm, whatever your opponent. I've found on fighters there's often times when you want to just take the AoO to perform a maneuver. Last game I was in, I took an AoO to trip an opponent (by intentionally moving through his threatened area first so that if his AoO hit I wouldn't lose my trip attempt), and I use bull rush plenty, and the allure of a class that can just do that no penalty seems really cool.
Another thing I'd REALLY like Brawlers to be able to do, either just by class features or by feat options, is hit foes into each other to damage them both.
Oh, man, what if "awesome blow" included other creatures as obstacles you could throw people at?
I like this but I imagine based.on the lore warden's +2 CMB being too good, giving the brawler the other half of all those feats would be considered the same.
A compromise could be not provoking for maneuvers selected with maneuver training, but those are the ones you most likely have improved versions of anyway.
On second thought, I guess the Monk has it in their description, too, so never mind. It's probably by design, and not oversight.
It's one of the many places where 3E and PF use redundant language (things stated in other parts of the books). Unfortunately, the game has grown so big and complex that nowadays, if we decide to not be that redundant in a similar section, people wonder if we're trying to state something different by doing so (when we're actually just trying not to repeat so much text).
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On second thought, I guess the Monk has it in their description, too, so never mind. It's probably by design, and not oversight.It's one of the many places where 3E and PF use redundant language (things stated in other parts of the books). Unfortunately, the game has grown so big and complex that nowadays, if we decide to not be that redundant in a similar section, people wonder if we're trying to state something different by doing so (when we're actually just trying not to repeat so much text).
Not sure if this was intended or not, but it also technically means that if for some reason a Brawler or Monk loses access to Improved Unarmed Strike they can still choose to deal lethal or nonlethal damage (but now no longer count as armed when attacking with an Unarmed Strike).