If we, say, give Brawlers Penetrating Strike for unarmed strikes at 5th level, and then Greater Penetrating Strike for unarmed strikes at say 9th level (when cold iron/silver kicks in), or 12th level (when alignment kicks in), then that would compare to a Fighter (or even another Brawler) using a weapon made with another material or blessed with an alignment, at the right stages that DR comes into play (I checked the bestiary by CR, and the 5/10 DRs kick in at around those times).
It's not apples and oranges. You want to give the brawler's primary method of attack the same mechanic as a 12th-level fighter feat.
I'm not debating this point any further. Brawler's strike works, people understand it, and it's not stealing class-exclusive abilities from any other class. We're using brawler's strike (and changing it to Ex instead of Su).
"The fighter has some really nice toys that only it can play with (because there's so little it otherwise gets), we should let others play with the fighter toys" is actually a really, really bad argument.
I don't think that's the argument at all.
The Fighter DOES get some nice toys (as you said, because he gets so little else).
The Brawler is a Fighter hybrid.
The Brawler needs some reliable way to overcome DR while fighting unarmed.
Brawler's Strike is an inelegant solution.
The Fighter (its parent class) has something that may or may not be a more elegant solution (I'm not 100% sold on it myself, but I don't see anything fundamentally wrong here).
Giving him this can possibly fix the problem, without hurting the parent class any (since the Fighter only Feats really haven't gone very far towards the goal of giving the Fighter new class features).
That's the chain of logic I followed anyway.
It's not apples and oranges. You want to give the brawler's primary method of attack the same mechanic as a 12th-level fighter feat.I'm not debating this point any further. Brawler's strike works, people understand it, and it's not stealing class-exclusive abilities from any other class. We're using brawler's strike (and changing it to Ex instead of Su).
Missed this while I was writing.
That works too. Like I said, it fixes the same flavor issue (just not the "identity crisis" issue the Brawler has...which runs a lot deeper than just having Brawler's Strike anyway, so it doesn't matter a whole lot).
I understand you aren't debating this and aren't going to change it.
However, in an effort of completeness and conversational fair play, I'd like to defend my point. There is a difference in that a Fighter can simply buy a weapon made of a material for his primary method of attack and gain DR penetration that way. With unarmed strikes, you can't. The Brawler ability is shoring up a deficiency of a normally (legitimately) weak weapon.
This was the reason for gaining DR penetration vs materials on the Monk class, as I understood it.
This is why I felt it was not stepping on Fighter toes. However, I understand that it's not going to change at this point, and there's a matter of debate on the valuation of penetrating DR blanket-wise. I also agree that penetrating strike is more complicated than the straight up on/off of the Monk version, so I can understand wanting to keep an already complex class (martial maneuvers) more basic in this aspect.
Last two cents since I love this class and will be playing one soon in a home game with point buy.
- More combat maneuvers usable on the brawler's flurry
- Link Martial Maneuver's to a stat. Reasoning behind this; It would be similar to a paladin's (warrior of the holy light archetype) power of faith. Lots of bonuses for a minute while using a resource. IMO it makes more sense to link it to a stat so player's are not afraid of using it often as opposed to saving it in case they need it.
That's it, other than that great class, I love it.
Linking it to a stat will probably result in LESS uses overall, unless you mean have it like Rage or something (4+Stat, 2 per level).
* We'd have to give it to the brawler at 5th level for the class to be viable, which is 7 levels before the fighter could get it, which isn't reasonable. By comparison, no archetype should give a 5th-level wizard the ability to use dimension door, and that would only be 3 levels early. Likewise, no archetype should give a non-fighter (even a hybrid fighter class like the brawler) Penatrating Strike at 5th level, which would be 7 levels early.
Monks get Stunning Fist (with a BAB +8 prerequisite) at level 1 with a BAB +0. The Monk of the Four Winds archetype gets Elemental Fist (also with a BAB +8 prerequisite) at at level 1 with a BAB +0. The Weapon Adept archetype gets Perfect Strike (also with a BAB +8 prerequisite) at at level 1 with a BAB +0. In all three of these cases the monk would have to usually wait until 11th level to purchase them. That is a 10 level gap. I don't see how a 7 level gap for a thematically better feat(ure) for the brawler would be that bad.
EDIT: And since I see Sean is done debating it, I will stop there.
I was thinking like stat + 1/2 level. Similar to many other classes abilities. In the brawler's case I can see wisdom (being part monk) or even constitution (remember Kong Fu was originally believed to be an exercise to increase the Shao Lin monk's endurance so that they could meditate longer)
I'm not quite sure why Penetrating Strike is in the discussion. What people want for Brawlers is Clustered Shots, but for melee attacks.
Penetrating Strike is "ignore 5/10 DR"
Clustered Shots is "total up damage before applying DR"
The pre-reqs on the latter? A couple of archer feats and +6 BAB. That's definitely no 12th level feat.
I'm not quite sure why Penetrating Strike is in the discussion. What people want for Brawlers is Clustered Shots, but for melee attacks.
Except for the people who offer Penetrating Strike as an alternative to ki strike.
I'm not quite sure why Penetrating Strike is in the discussion. What people want for Brawlers is Clustered Shots, but for melee attacks.
Penetrating Strike is "ignore 5/10 DR"
Clustered Shots is "total up damage before applying DR"
The pre-reqs on the latter? A couple of archer feats and +6 BAB. That's definitely no 12th level feat.
Honestly. Either one would work...
I'm not quite sure why Penetrating Strike is in the discussion. What people want for Brawlers is Clustered Shots, but for melee attacks.Except for the people who offer Penetrating Strike as an alternative to ki strike.
Ah. I missed the push for that. I thought that "Clustered Shots for Melee" was the current favoured Ki Strike replacement.
I'm disappointed that the designers have settled for Ki Strike. It's certainly "good enough," and sure - as an Ex ability - it fits the flavour. It just doesn't do anything to help define the Brawler as its own class, something which has been already pointed out needs some assistance before level 13.
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Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
Sweet. Thanks for keeping us in the know as to what direction the class is heading. At the end of the day, still looking forward to when this book comes out. It's going to be a long half-year.
I'm not quite sure why Penetrating Strike is in the discussion. What people want for Brawlers is Clustered Shots, but for melee attacks.Except for the people who offer Penetrating Strike as an alternative to ki strike.Ah. I missed the push for that. I thought that "Clustered Shots for Melee" was the current favoured Ki Strike replacement.
I'm disappointed that the designers have settled for Ki Strike. It's certainly "good enough," and sure - as an Ex ability - it fits the flavour. It just doesn't do anything to help define the Brawler as its own class, something which has been already pointed out needs some assistance before level 13.
I agree. Well since Sean said they won't be moving on this topic, I have nothing else to add about the class. As said before, the Brawler's only unique mechanic is Martial Maneuvers till level 13 when he gets Knockout.
Edit: Neat. Atleast Knockout comes earlier.
Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
Hnnnng...may need to respec my new planned Fighter/Monk in that case.
Hnnnng...may need to respec my new planned Fighter/Monk in that case.Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
From you, Rynjin, this seems the highest of praises.
If we, say, give Brawlers Penetrating Strike for unarmed strikes at 5th level, and then Greater Penetrating Strike for unarmed strikes at say 9th level (when cold iron/silver kicks in), or 12th level (when alignment kicks in), then that would compare to a Fighter (or even another Brawler) using a weapon made with another material or blessed with an alignment, at the right stages that DR comes into play (I checked the bestiary by CR, and the 5/10 DRs kick in at around those times).It's not apples and oranges. You want to give the brawler's primary method of attack the same mechanic as a 12th-level fighter feat.
I'm not debating this point any further. Brawler's strike works, people understand it, and it's not stealing class-exclusive abilities from any other class. We're using brawler's strike (and changing it to Ex instead of Su).
Gaining access to a feat that's not great when you can take it and is tagged fighter only more so that fighters have something that helps them without other martials getting on on the bus is stealing something class exclusive.. That several other classes including the brawler can get anyways. Taking the monk style DR bypass, which I don't think anything else has, is not. I don't even like the free penetrating strike idea and I cant see how that logic tracks.
Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
The lack of intelligence requirement and more martial maneuvers means I'm now on board. And the lower level knockout is rather neat as well.
From you, Rynjin, this seems the highest of praises.
I'm...not sure if this is a compliment ("Oh I respect your opinion on classes") or an insult ("Man you're a nitpicky bastard who's never happy with anything, jeez."). =p
Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
Awesome! I'm planning on running a brawler soon--good to know I don't need the 13 int.
Its great that youre adding more uses per day--could you possibly tell us what way you're leaning towards for determining martial maneuvers usage per day (based on stat, level, etc)?
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Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for the brawler (and other classes) now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
I'm liking this class more and more...
My one nitpick is the size penalty to Awesome Blow... It still feels wrong to apply the same penalty twice... Or has that changed and I missed it?
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Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
Can't wait for the book to come out, this looks awesome!
I'm...not sure if this is a compliment ("Oh I respect your opinion on classes") or an insult ("Man you're a nitpicky bastard who's never happy with anything, jeez."). =p
From you, Rynjin, this seems the highest of praises.
Whichever you think is better. That's the beauty of communication via text: you can pick which reading you like the most.
But you also know lots about monks, so there's that.
Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for the brawler (and other classes) now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
Update them with the results for this Round 2 of playtesting, or with the proposed changes in mind?
and it's not stealing class-exclusive abilities from any other class. We're using brawler's strike (and changing it to Ex instead of Su).
I think a clustered shots mechanic would hurt those times when you can't full attack. That's not a deal breaker for me, but it's something to remember. I think Penetrating strike and Brawler strike are both achieving basically the same thing and neither is any better or even all that different in terms of flavor. And both are taking "class-exclusive abilities" from another class. penetrating strike from the fighter, and ki strike from the monk.
However, if there is no difference between "Magic Fists" and "Bruce Lee Fists" to me that means there should be, not that it doesn't matter.
But like I said, I'm fine with Brawler Strike and I'd be fine with melee clustered shots and I still think that it'd be potentially worth a feat (especially via Martial Maneuvers) on its own for specific circumstances.
PS: Very excited about the Combat Ex change, even if I'd prefer they just count as having it for combat feat prerequisites... even if I'd prefer the game just eliminate redundant prerequisites so that if I could get improved disarm somehow I wouldn't still need to grab combat ex for greater disarm etc.
Well the BIG change with the prerequisite waiving is that it makes a versatile Combat Maneuver character viable through Martial Maneuvers.
Grabbing Combat Expertise + Improved/Greater Combat Maneuver is now a possible option, which is great.
Well the BIG change with the prerequisite waiving is that it makes a versatile Combat Maneuver character viable through Martial Maneuvers.
Grabbing Combat Expertise + Improved/Greater Combat Maneuver is now a possible option, which is great.
As much as it will pain me I'll probably pick up Combat Expertise with my regular feats to try and preserve my MM uses. I need it for half the combat maneuvers anyway.
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Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
I really do urge you to consider an alternative. 3+1/2 level is still VERY few full uses of the ability, only counts as about one more overall (but DOES very handily fix the "Almost unusable at low levels" thing, which I very much do like).
Unless you were planning on dropping the "Each Feat takes a separate use" clause and changing it to "Make take one Feat as a Free action, two as a Swift, or 3 as a Move action, each of these options takes only one use of Martial Maneuvers".
Which actually now I think about it really ups the options there. That would mean you can, if you choose, burn 3 uses of Martial Maneuvers to get 3 Feats with 3 Free actions, essentially Novaing your gained Feats, which I don't think is a bad deal at all.
Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
I really do urge you to consider an alternative. 3+1/2 level is still VERY few full uses of the ability, only counts as about one more overall (but DOES very handily fix the "Almost unusable at low levels" thing, which I very much do like).
Unless you were planning on dropping the "Each Feat takes a separate use" clause and changing it to "Make take one Feat as a Free action, two as a Swift, or 3 as a Move action, each of these options takes only one use of Martial Maneuvers".
Which actually now I think about it really ups the options there. That would mean you can, if you choose, burn 3 uses of Martial Maneuvers to get 3 Feats with 3 Free actions, essentially Novaing your gained Feats, which I don't think is a bad deal at all.
Actually that sounds awesome. If I'm in a pinch I'd be willing to burn for speed.
Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for the brawler (and other classes) now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
This is plenty of uses if the ability were also changed to not take multiple uses jsut to fully utilize your own ability. Otherwise, I don't know...
EDIT: which is what Rynjin said.
Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for the brawler (and other classes) now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
This is plenty of uses if the ability were also changed to not take multiple uses jsut to fully utilize your own ability. Otherwise, I don't know...
EDIT: which is what Rynjin said.
As it is right now it still requires 3 uses to take 3 feats.
As it is right now it still requires 3 uses to take 3 feats.Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for the brawler (and other classes) now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
This is plenty of uses if the ability were also changed to not take multiple uses jsut to fully utilize your own ability. Otherwise, I don't know...
EDIT: which is what Rynjin said.
Yep. Which is why I recommended changing it, as Rynjin mentioned.
Yep. Which is why I recommended changing it, as Rynjin mentioned.As it is right now it still requires 3 uses to take 3 feats.Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for the brawler (and other classes) now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
This is plenty of uses if the ability were also changed to not take multiple uses jsut to fully utilize your own ability. Otherwise, I don't know...
EDIT: which is what Rynjin said.
Sorry. At first glance I thought you were confused as to if it had been changed or not.
Sorry. At first glance I thought you were confused as to if it had been changed or not.Yep. Which is why I recommended changing it, as Rynjin mentioned.As it is right now it still requires 3 uses to take 3 feats.Leaning toward (3 + half your brawler level) uses of martial maneuvers per day.
Also, please remember to update your survey responses for the brawler (and other classes) now that the playtest period is coming to a close: survey link.
This is plenty of uses if the ability were also changed to not take multiple uses jsut to fully utilize your own ability. Otherwise, I don't know...
EDIT: which is what Rynjin said.
Rereading my post, I see how one could do that.
/derail
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My one nitpick is the size penalty to Awesome Blow... It still feels wrong to apply the same penalty twice... Or has that changed and I missed it?
I didn't mention it, but that'll be fixed, too.
Update them with the results for this Round 2 of playtesting, or with the proposed changes in mind?
Let's say "with these proposed changes in mind."
As for changing to other than 3 + half level per day, you don't need flex your max-at-a-time allotment of feats for every fight, and the normal duration is 1 minute per use, which should last an entire combat.
A brawler10 would have 8 uses per day, which is enough for 2 uses of 3 feats each and 2 uses of 1 feat, or 4 uses of 2 feats, which is 4 combats.
And given that the brawler also has a good selection of permanent bonus combat feats, by the time you reach mid-levels you're going to have some favorite quick-builds and probably be partially invested in some of those feat chains, so you won't be needing to burn as many daily uses of martial maneuvers each time you activate it.
Frex, a Str-focused brawler who actually takes Power Attack with a bonus feat is now only one feat away from most of the Improved [Maneuver] feats, and is only two feats away from the Greater [Maneuver] feats, so the example brawler10 would have 3 uses of 2 feats each and 2 uses of 1 feat, which is 5 combats. And if your build really requires you to spend a lot of uses, you can take a feat to get more.
Martial maneuvers is intended as a way for you to adapt to combats when necessary, but should still be a limited resource (not a scarce resource, but a limited resource).
My one nitpick is the size penalty to Awesome Blow... It still feels wrong to apply the same penalty twice... Or has that changed and I missed it?I didn't mention it, but that'll be fixed, too.
Update them with the results for this Round 2 of playtesting, or with the proposed changes in mind?Let's say "with these proposed changes in mind."
As for changing to other than 3 + half level per day, you don't need flex your max-at-a-time allotment of feats for every fight, and the normal duration is 1 minute per use, which should last an entire combat. A brawler10 would have 13 uses per day, which is enough for 4 uses of 3 feats each and 1 use of 1 feat, which is 5 combats. And given that the brawler also has a good selection of permanent bonus combat feats, by the time you reach mid-levels you're going to have some favorite quick-builds and probably be partially invested in some of those feat chains, so you won't be needing to burn as many daily uses of martial maneuvers each time you activate it. Frex, a Str-focused brawler who actually takes Power Attack with a bonus feat is now only one feat away from most of the Improved [Maneuver] feats, and is only two feats away from the Greater [Maneuver] feats, so the example brawler 10 would have 6 uses of 2 feats each and 1 use of 1 feat, which is 7 combats. And if your build really requires you to spend a lot of uses, you can take a feat to get more. Martial maneuvers is intended as a way for you to adapt to combats when necessary, but should still be a limited resource (not a scarce resource, but a limited resource).
Is it 3 + half level, or 3 plus level per day? 3 + half level would be 8 uses at level 10. It would be 13 uses at level 20, right?
Oops. 3 + half, so at level 10 that's 8 uses per day. I had a level 20 example planned as well, but didn't post it. I've updated my numbers.
My one nitpick is the size penalty to Awesome Blow... It still feels wrong to apply the same penalty twice... Or has that changed and I missed it?I didn't mention it, but that'll be fixed, too.
That's awesome!
Now I don't have any problems with the class... I'd like to see Rynjin's suggestion of only spending 1 use of Martial Maneuvers to get all feats instead of each feat being considered a different use, but that's me being greedy... ^^
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
Do we adhere to these changes in PFS?
As for changing to other than 3 + half level per day, you don't need flex your max-at-a-time allotment of feats for every fight, and the normal duration is 1 minute per use, which should last an entire combat.
A brawler10 would have 8 uses per day, which is enough for 2 uses of 3 feats each and 2 uses of 1 feat, or 4 uses of 2 feats, which is 4 combats.
And given that the brawler also has a good selection of permanent bonus combat feats, by the time you reach mid-levels you're going to have some favorite quick-builds and probably be partially invested in some of those feat chains, so you won't be needing to burn as many daily uses of martial maneuvers each time you activate it.Frex, a Str-focused brawler who actually takes Power Attack with a bonus feat is now only one feat away from most of the Improved [Maneuver] feats, and is only two feats away from the Greater [Maneuver] feats, so the example brawler10 would have 3 uses of 2 feats each and 2 uses of 1 feat, which is 5 combats. And if your build really requires you to spend a lot of uses, you can take a feat to get more.
Martial maneuvers is intended as a way for you to adapt to combats when necessary, but should still be a limited resource (not a scarce resource, but a limited resource).
These are good points, and I think it means we're looking at this from a different perspective.
You see Martial Maneuvers as one trick in the Brawler's arsenal, and therefore if it's only at half effectiveness a lot of the time, it's not an issue. Which is understandable.
I've been coming at this from the perspective that Martial Maneuvers is supposed to be the Brawler's main trick, much like Rage, Smite, Judgement, Favored Target, or whatever, and from that perspective I don't think it has enough uses.
Not sure if you guys are still reading these threads or not, but I figure since posting is still open I might as well give it a shot.
Still looking forward to seeing the final product.
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Do we adhere to these changes in PFS?Here's a heads-up on some brawler changes I'll be implementing:
* Brawler counts as having Int 13 for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.
* Brawlers soon gain an ability to scale up close weapon damage (downleveled from her unarmed strike damage).
* Brawlers gain more uses per day of martial maneuvers.
* Knockout gained at a much lower level 1/day, then a level where you get 2/day, capping at 3/day like the current iteration.
* Brawler strike is Ex instead of Su.
This is a really good question.