Revised Brawler Discussion


Class Discussion

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Maybe grit in exchange of the ki pool isn't that bad.
a good way to add wis to ac is it also or isn't that possible because this mechanic is to much of a gunslinger? I said that before but I think there is no good solution in sight.


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:


I suspect the brawler will also be fighting lower-CR foes, even when she's at level 20. So "I can't make use of this" is hyperbole and inaccurate. "Rarely works on the boss encounter" is accurate... and something I'm comfortable with.

Last year I finished up a years-long game that went from 1-18, and I have to say...

CMDs are /stupid/ at high levels. Even a character built to do nothing but perform combat maneuvers will have an incredibly difficult time succeeding against high level foes. Looking at Bestiary 2, lets go through the CMDs of foes at high CRs, meaning here 16+:

Bythos, CR 16, CMD 44, Large
Pleroma, CR 20, CMD 57, Large
Draconal, CR 20, CMD 51, Large
Star Archon, CR 19, CMD 42, Large
Brigidine, CR 17, CMD 43, Medium (Hey, something the Brawler has a not-horrendous chance against)
Astrademon, CR 16, CMD 41, Large
Olethrodaemon, CR 20, CMD 54, Gargantuan
Purrodaemon, CR 18, CMD 47, Large

As a side note, I haven't been noting which creatures here are immune to trip, but it's a lot of them.

Shemhazian, CR 16, CMD 48, Gargantuan
Vrolikai, CR 19, CMD 47, Large
Bdellavritra, CR 16, CMD 41, Large
Purgarus, CR 19, CMD 49, Large

And then there's a bunch of dragons... Not goign to list them all, but
CR 16, Huge, 47 is the low and CR 19, Gargantuan, 50 is the high

Rune Giant, CR 17, CMD 44, Gargantuan...
Adamantine Golem, CR 19, CMD 54, Huge

okay, I think I've made my point. At a +30 CMB, Awesome blow is less than 50% likely to work on any of these, with the "best" chance being against the CR 17 Brigidine, where he needs a 13. For comparison, if his favored combat maneuver is grapple (and mine always is), he has a +39 to grapple and can grab the biggest, baddest thing here on a 17. Awesome blow doesn't work against challenges even close to appropriate.


Adam Teles did you add in the cumulative -5 penalty for each size category larger the creature is to the Brawler? I believe that further skews things against him.


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I suspect the brawler will also be fighting lower-CR foes, even when she's at level 20. So "I can't make use of this" is hyperbole and inaccurate. "Rarely works on the boss encounter" is accurate... and something I'm comfortable with.

Take a look at this spreadsheet. Notice how the mean CMD value doesn't dip below 40 after CR 14? The class's main ability working less often than not on anything stronger than APL-5 is completely unacceptable. That's like a spellcaster tossing DC 25 saving throws around at level 20. (Hello, Bloodrager!)

EDIT: Or even less than that, since I forgot about that stupid size modifier thing. Why do these even exist?


Craft Cheese wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I suspect the brawler will also be fighting lower-CR foes, even when she's at level 20. So "I can't make use of this" is hyperbole and inaccurate. "Rarely works on the boss encounter" is accurate... and something I'm comfortable with.
Take a look at this spreadsheet. Notice how the mean CMD value doesn't dip below 40 after CR 14? The class's main ability working less often than not on anything stronger than APL-5 is completely unacceptable. That's like a spellcaster tossing DC 25 saving throws around at level 20. (Hello, Bloodrager!)

Given all the design work and statistical analysis I'm sure the developers have put into these classes, I'm sure this is not any new information. After all, one of the basic parts of design is to test to see how effective the designed item/process is in achieving its goals in expected usage conditions.


Scavion wrote:
Adam Teles did you add in the cumulative -5 penalty for each size category larger the creature is to the Brawler? I believe that further skews things against him.

Not in the numbers, but it's why I noted the sizes. Brijidine at 43 winds up being the lowest because even though there's a few 41s there, they're both large making them 46s vs Awesome Blow.

Scarab Sages

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Broken wrote:
Broken wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Broken wrote:
Out of curiosity did I miss it or is the dagger not in the close weapon category?
Daggers are simple weapons, and brawlers are also proficient in simple weapons.
*FACEPALM

OK, I think I figured out why I was confused. Brawler's Flurry is limited to unarmed, close, and monk. So you couldn't Flurry with the dagger.

Visions of epic knife fights from the 80's just keep popping into my head, even if it's not optimal.

This is an interesting point, Broken. I hadn't realized that. I'd envisioned my Brawler as a prizefighter and knife-fighter. It's strange that the Brawler can't flurry with one. Hmm.

Grand Lodge

I like the concept of the design, but when I read it I don't feel like playing it.

My first character is a dwarf Fighter(Brawler), so when I saw brawler in the playtest I was happy. Then I read it, and lost interest.

I actually like most of the class, it just doesn't feel right.

This is what I don't like.

Martial Maneuvers needs more work. I like the concept but PFS GMs are going to hate this class as players waste everyones time searching for feats.

It doesn't feel like a "brawler" until they get knockout, awesome blow, and imp. awesome blow are great. Why can't knockout come earlier? Until 13th level just have the duration be 1 round like Stunning Fist. The earlier version of awesome blow could be an enhanced Bull Rush. Something like you get extra movement, or reduced penalty for moving multiple targets. Maybe let them "crit" with maneuvers to different affects. Something like that.

Liberty's Edge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Dispari Scuro wrote:
Sounds pretty much like what Amulet of Mighty Fists already does. As Linkara would say, "It's magic, I don't have to explain it!"

Right... but the other poster wants an amulet of mighty fists that's a weapon slot, or a hand slot.

Tels wrote:
Sean, how do you feel about a 'clustered shot' mechanic for Brawer's to replace the current Brawler's strike?
I think the brawler's strike as written accomplishes what we want it to do.

Sean,

As I read through the Brawler threads, the predominant feedback I keep seeing is that the Brawler's Strike doesn't fit the class as written. It is agreed that this is largely a fluff thing between SU and EX.

I gave an alternate for it in the Brawler thread.

Brawler's Scarring

Brawler's Scarring wrote:

What if:

Armor & Weapon Proficiencies = Zero. None. Zilch. Nada. (save em for an archetype).

They get an ability called:

Brawler's Scarring (EX): Due to the constant use of his hands, arms, legs, and forehead to violently pummel his enemies, the brawler gains scar tissue across its body. The scar tissue forms in such a way, that they can choose to do slashing or piercing damage instead of bludgeoning damage. Additionally they gain natural armor of 2.

At 3rd level, this scar tissue becomes hardened and can be enchanted like a weapon. At 7th level the scar tissue can also be enchanted like armor. The cost is he same to enchant a weapon or armor, but the brawler must be available for 8 hours a day for the enchanter to work their magic.

At 5th level, the scar tissue becomes so tough that they can avoid magical DR. Brawler's fists, however, are not considered magical weapons unless enchanted as above. At 9th level the brawler can avoid cold iron or silver DR, alignment based DR at 12th level, and adamantine DR at 17th level.

And a follow up post:

Follow Up

Follow up wrote:

I honestly don't feel that

1/2 Brawler Level + Constitution Modifier, rounded down, in DR Avoidance will slow the game down at all. I have a 9th level Monk I've been playing with Planar Amulet of Mighty Fists for awhile now, and that avoids up to 5 DR on Extraplanar creatures with DR. I just say, I hit for 9 damage and can avoid 5 DR. It wouldn't be that different for the Brawler, except the number changes as they level.

Alternatively, since they can enchant their scar tissue, what if instead of being able to avoid the metal DR's they can lace their scar tissue with the metal for the same cost of making a two-handed sword of that metal.

Then the only sticking point would be how to avoid alignment DR, and if they can enchant their hands, the answer then becomes get holy or axiomatic scar tissue.

It would be interesting to see your feedback on these.

I know that the ability, "Does what you want it to do", but just because that's true, doesn't make it necessarily an appropriate ability for the Brawler.

Additionally, I'd like to see your further input on why a level based number for avoiding DR would slow the game down? My experience is the opposite in using the planar weapon ability on my Monk's amulet of mighty fists.

I feel this class is very close, and this and the Shaman are the two I'm really excited about playing.

But the resistance to at least look at optional wording for the Brawler's Strike I think is a sticking point for almost all the feedback I'm seeing. Entertaining alternate wording or a slightly different mechanic I think is extremely important for the viability of this class.

Yeah, I know. It doesn't make logical sense that the fluff of a mechanic would make people not want to build the class. But we are all obsessive nerds that think movies should be exactly like the books or comics...


Sean Do magic weapon bonus apply to Awesome Blow checks? like a +5 Scythe would apply to trip? such as +5 amulet of might fist, or a +5 shield if preforming awesome blow. if Awesome blow is going to be the cap stone and lower level ability it need something to improve it self. at least the other maneuvers feats can be used to increase their bonus or weapon training ect. Can a Brawler take Awesome Blow as one if his maneuver training? Or does it have to be one of the standard maneuvers?

Dark Archive

Since the Awesome Blow is treated as though made with their weapon, the enhancement bonuses (including variable ones like Bane) and other attack roll modifiers (e.g. Weapon Focus) from the weapon count towards the CMB check. Are we taking those into account?

With sufficient bonuses you could easily land the hit.


Psyren wrote:

Since the Awesome Blow is treated as though made with their weapon, the enhancement bonuses (including variable ones like Bane) and other attack roll modifiers (e.g. Weapon Focus) from the weapon count towards the CMB check. Are we taking those into account?

With sufficient bonuses you could easily land the hit.

+5 from a weapon, +2 from greater weapon focus... That'd overcome the -5 for Large, but that's still far from "easily" especially when things start getting bigger than Large.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

I don't think we're going to let a character get a permanent weapon or armor enhancement bonus on her skin.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
ubiquitous wrote:


The Brawler is a guy who beats things up. He's a dude from the UFC. He's an average - if physically and martially gifted - guy. How does he know how to magically enhance his fists?

Maybe when he was 2nd level, he was the dude from UFC. At 12th level, he's Beowulf, as played by Chuck Norris.

I don't get all the complaining on CMD. Even at 20th level, you still run into humanoid NPCs. Surely, the ability to suplex Elminster is worth something.


It would be fun if the brawler had a way or reason to mix attacks between different weapons, such as being able to add her unarmed flurry attacks to an attack sequence with a manufactured weapon. I've got this image of a great sword fighter throwing in kicks and shoulder slams to keep momentum between her swings, bull rushing her opponent and charging after them.

Liberty's Edge

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I don't think we're going to let a character get a permanent weapon or armor enhancement bonus on her skin.

What about the lacing of metal in their scar tissue? Or even just the name and fluff of it?

Any thoughts on my commentary on:

Avoid DR = 1/2 brawler level + Con Mod?

As long as the player keeps track of the number, this shouldn't slow game play at all. My experience using the Planar weapon ability has shown me this.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

My reply about brass knuckles is:

Normal human unarmed strikes are weak (nonlethal damage, –4 on the attack roll if you want to deal lethal damage instead).

Brass knucks let an untrained combatant deal lethal damage without the –4 penalty.
Improved Unarmed Strike feat (or the equivalent class ability) lets a combatant deal lethal damage without the –4 penalty.

So the brawler (and monk) are already getting the benefits of brass knuckles, for free. So brass knuckles don't "stack" with the benefits of IUS. And when the brawler's or monk's unarmed damage scales up, the brass knuckles don't add to that because they already match brass knuckles at the baseline.

In the same way that a fighter could say, "how come I don't have a 1st-level ability that lets me deal more damage with a dagger?" The answer is "because you have martial weapon proficiency, which means you can use short swords, longswords, and bastard swords without a penalty, which are better than daggers." In other words, the fighter is asking "why can't I use an inferior weapon (dagger) to do as much damage as a better weapon I have access to (longsword)?" And for the monk and brawler, it's "why can't I use an inferior weapon (brass knuckles) to do as much damage as a better weapon I have access to (unarmed strike)?"

(Basically, monks and brawlers already have a built-in ability of "treat my unarmed strikes as if I were using brass knuckles, so I don't provoke AOOs and don't get the –4 penalty for dealing lethal damage.")

Also, because real world badass martial artists don't use brass knuckles, they use their fists; brass knuckles are for thugs who don't really know how to fight.

You know...that's a very good point, and well said. :)


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Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I don't think we're going to let a character get a permanent weapon or armor enhancement bonus on her skin.

Then please tell you have a solution for being forced to choose between being unarmed as the class intends or getting an amulet of natural armor?

Because without amulet of mighty fists all you're gonna have is "style" and inferiority. Without Amulet of Natural armor your gonna be even more behind on AC as a class that will already be behind on AC.

It's really sad :(

Adding either "magic tattoos", "enhanceable gloves", or letting them use an amulet of mighty fists as a weapon as opposed to a neck slot wondrous item.


Just a different take on the Brawler's Strike DR discussion. Instead of the DR bypassing that is copied from the monk, what about:

"The enhancement bonus of the brawler's unarmed strike is considered 2 higher for the purpose of overcoming DR."

Liberty's Edge

There is the bodywrap of mighty strikes.

I mean, they're still not perfect and are incredibly clunky and don't play well with attacks of opportunity, but it's a thing!


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I don't think we're going to let a character get a permanent weapon or armor enhancement bonus on her skin.

Then please tell you have a solution for being forced to choose between being unarmed as the class intends or getting an amulet of natural armor?

Because without amulet of mighty fists all you're gonna have is "style" and inferiority. Without Amulet of Natural armor your gonna be even more behind on AC as a class that will already be behind on AC.

It's really sad :(

Adding either "magic tattoos", "enhanceable gloves", or letting them use an amulet of mighty fists as a weapon as opposed to a neck slot wondrous item.

To add, Amulet of Mighty Fists is a bit of a tax on Monks/Brawlers/Unarmed fighters everywhere. It charges you for the Natural attacks even if your not using them. And thats been said to be the reason why the price is so high.

Brawling Gloves/Greaves: These apparel may be enchanted just like a weapon(At the same cost) to grant an enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage on unarmed strikes using fists or feet (Choose one).

Flavor!:

Boss O'mally looked onto the gaggle of misfit "heroes" that had broken into his warehouse with disgust. "Looks like I'll have to take care of this myself," he remarks, stepping over the bodies of his henchmen. He pulls out a pair of rough looking leather gloves and slips them on, pulling them tight over his hands. His fists crackle with electricity as he assumes a fighting stance.

He bats aside the blade of a charging warrior and plants a vicious hook in his jaw in return, sending him reeling. A familiar pain in his side causes him to jerk to the left, coming eye to eye with a cowardly knife wielding wench. Growling, he unleashes his signature "O'mally Special" kicking her feet from under her and slamming her into the floor with a mighty blow. Boss O'mally turns his attention from the nuisance.

He takes his time with the warrior. He wants them to see how futile it is. The blade comes close again, but just before connecting O'mally launches a swift chop to the wrist sending it off course. The warrior is sweating. Boss O'mally decides to end it. The warrior swings in desperation but his blade is knocked free and clatters to the ground. O'mally weaves back and forth pummeling the man through his armor. One. Two. Three. Four. Wobbling the warrior collapses, his dented and crumpled armor a testament to the Boss' brutality.

A few slit throats later and the Boss is back to enjoying his brew in one of his safehouses.


Alice Margatroid wrote:

There is the bodywrap of mighty strikes.

I mean, they're still not perfect and are incredibly clunky and don't play well with attacks of opportunity, but it's a thing!

That item is absolutely terrible. Its obviously for Monks/Brawlers but takes no heed of Flurry.

Liberty's Edge

I didn't say it was a good option... :)

Silver Crusade

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

I don't want to derail this into discussion about brass knuckles, but W. Kristoph Nolen also replied on my fan page, so I thought I'd repost my answer from there to here. In any case, if you want to continue discussing brass knuckles, make another thread about it (outside of the playtest boards), I don't want it here.

My reply about brass knuckles is:

Normal human unarmed strikes are weak (nonlethal damage, –4 on the attack roll if you want to deal lethal damage instead).

Brass knucks let an untrained combatant deal lethal damage without the –4 penalty.
Improved Unarmed Strike feat (or the equivalent class ability) lets a combatant deal lethal damage without the –4 penalty.

So the brawler (and monk) are already getting the benefits of brass knuckles, for free. So brass knuckles don't "stack" with the benefits of IUS. And when the brawler's or monk's unarmed damage scales up, the brass knuckles don't add to that because they already match brass knuckles at the baseline.

In the same way that a fighter could say, "how come I don't have a 1st-level ability that lets me deal more damage with a dagger?" The answer is "because you have martial weapon proficiency, which means you can use short swords, longswords, and bastard swords without a penalty, which are better than daggers." In other words, the fighter is asking "why can't I use an inferior weapon (dagger) to do as much damage as a better weapon I have access to (longsword)?" And for the monk and brawler, it's "why can't I use an inferior weapon (brass knuckles) to do as much damage as a better weapon I have access to (unarmed strike)?"

(Basically, monks and brawlers already have a built-in ability of "treat my unarmed strikes as if I were using brass knuckles, so I don't provoke AOOs and don't get the –4 penalty for dealing lethal damage.")

Also, because real world badass martial artists don't use brass knuckles, they use their fists; brass knuckles are for thugs who don't really know how to fight.

I'm moving on to other questions...

You make a valid argument...while completely ignoring the enchanting issue. The issue has always been, and the issue you chose to ignore is monks, brawlers, etc are told "limit yourself to 1d4 damage, or pay twice as much for enchants and limit yourself to +5" there's no upside in the current ruleset.

Of course you could say AoMF has the 'advantage' of enchanting the whole body. Which is fine for nonhumanoid creatures, but ever since Ultimate Combat it's been ruled that a flurry could be done with 1 hand or weapon. Hell the brawler rules specifically say it. So at the end of the day there's no effective benefit to the AoMF for people who use unarmed strikes.
That's what this whole thing boils down to for me. Paizo game designers stepped in and made a rule that rendered taxing unarmed enchants obsolete, but didn't get rid of the tax. The AoMF works the way it does because "that's the way it worked in 3.5". But in 3.5 it was assumed you needed both hands to flurry so yeah it made sense to give it a penalty. Well you changed the rules, now its time to stop ignoring the artifacts left in the wake of that change.


Alice Margatroid wrote:
I didn't say it was a good option... :)

Jumping out a window to leave a building generally isn't a good option, I would much rather someone just let me take the stairs like everyone else.

Or rather, one guy gets to pay 10 dollars for his ticket, I have to pay 15. And paying for this ticket keeps me from going to another event.

Point is, Monks and anyone else using Unarmed Strikes have been unduly penalized through gold and equipment slots for the benefits of being always armed and thats it. I don't think you can disarm someone of armor spikes so even thats not that fantastic.

Myths about Unarmed Strike
Unsunderable: Sort of true, but is incredibly vulnerable to having their Amulet of Mighty Fists sundered. 10 points of damage renders it inoperable.
Undisarmable: Like every other guy with a locked gauntlet or armor spikes.
Damage!1!1!: Over the course of 20 levels, the Monk gains an average of 8 points of damage from his scaling damage dice. The Fighter matches that with his Weapon Training and his Fighter Only feats(Weapon Spec/Greater). The good monk builds don't rely on unarmed strikes. That should say something about Unarmed Strikes as a fighting style.

Its been brought up multiple times that when a party has their weapons taken away the monk shines. Well so does the Barbarian/Fighter/Anyone intelligent who punches you with his gauntleted fist. So really its when the Party is absolutely stripped of everything, the Monk does kinda well.

I want to see the Brawler succeed as a Great Unarmed Combatant. This is how I think it would achieve that best.

Step 1) Extraordinary Clustered Shots method of penetrating DR. Something along the lines of what Tels posted with Brutal Blows. Replaces Brawler Strike.

Step 2) Design a magic item that doesn't take up an important item slot like the neck for enhancing ONLY Unarmed Strikes. The item could be Gloves, Boots, Magic Tattoos(Kinda bad ass now that I think about it.) or anything really. Yall are smart, creative dudes. I'm sure you could come up with something. It can only be a few kinds of Unarmed Strikes it applies to if that makes things better. Like fists or kicks. It must pointedly not apply to Natural Attacks. Step 2 is most important. It turns around and also says, "Alright Monks. We're done making you pay more for less."

Optional) Make Awesome Blow more useful at high levels =P Drop the -5 penalty for sizes bigger. Monsters already get a bonus to their CMD because they're massive. Grant the Brawler a bonus equal to half his level to the check. This gives him a good shot at knocking those monsters around. I think we should all want to see an epic Brawler punch the Tarrasque or Cthulu so hard they launched them 10ft into the air and fall down.


Sean, one of the reasons why Monks never had an 'easy' method of enhancing their attacks, or having a decent crit range, is that they have the highest damage dice in the game, for PC races.

The Warpriest has the ability to freely enhance their armor, their weapons, and they get the second highest damage dice of the PC classes that applies to any weapon.

A Warpriest could dual-wield Kukris and by 20th level, have a crit range of 15-20x2 that deals 2d8 points of damage per hit.

Why is it that the Monk/Brawler class don't get similar abilities? The idea that 'Monk unarmed strikes need to be bad because they have high damage dice' is kind of non-existent now.

[Edit] I'm kind of looking forward to the "Warpriest - Vital Strike" threads that involve the Warpriest using Lead Blades + Enlarge Person (or capstone) for 4d8 damage dice and then Improved Vital Striking for 12d8 damage on a hit.

BTW, I will be reposting this comment in the Warpriest thread.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:


The problem with that is your unarmed strike is not limited to your hand. It could be a kick. So suddenly you have a magical glove on your hand... but you can designate your unarmed strike as any body part... so do you get the glove bonus on your kick, or a knee or elbow? And it becomes even more vague when you have a race with claws (on the hands), and they want to use the claws and unarmed strikes in the same round, suddenly you have a natural attack on a limb using a limb-specific magic item, and a limb-agnostic unarmed strike that may or may not be using the bonus from a limb-specific magic item, and so on.

Magical glove making you kick harder = Hard to make sense because well golly its on your hand and you might be kicking.

Magical Amulet making me better at umarmed = Okay because I guess by the relevant ability wording I'm capable of punching with my neck ? And this one is probably even weirder with claw attacks.

Can you see the bit of disconnect were having here ? Magic items are magic and thanks to amulets' rings cloaks and hats were all pretty used to things not just magicing up the area they're attached to at this point.

Silver Crusade

For the record I think that the neck slot issue, while having merit, is way overblown on the forums. I think in the grand scheme of things, taking up the neck slot is a valid price to pay for say unarmed fighters using twf instead of flurry. Ultimately though I think its just as reasonable to disregard such builds when balancing unarmed enchants since its such a specialized circumstance.
I think complaining about the neck slot has more to do with the general attitude on the forum that things are either perfect or utter crap, with nothing in between.


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I think we should really drop the itemization issue here. It has nothing specific to do with the Brawler, honestly. I have my own ideas on what would be appropriate for my game, and the game designers have decided to go with their own way with it. It's not something to really discuss unless the "fix" (and whether there needs to be one) is supposed to be built into the class itself here.

.

What I feel the biggest issue with the Brawler is that he's not going to look terribly different from one incarnation to the next.

In fact, he's not going to look all that different (attack-wise) from a Monk.
Between the flurry of blows and DR bypassing stuff, it really feels like there's not much to create a distinction.

And compared to a Fighter.. well, at least the Fighter gets to choose what weapon training he focuses on.

Of all the ACG classes, the Brawler suffers the most in identity crisis. The Swashbuckler coming a close second (but at least he has a long series of unique abilities that no other class can do with panache), and even he can pick up extra deeds to make himself more unique. Everyone else gets talents, rage powers, or spellcasting (often spells + chooseable stuff) to distinguish between individual characters.

In the survey, I listed a low score for that particular question (sameness between Brawler builds).

.

I think that despite Brawlers coming from a Monk background, they should get something more unique than the Flurry of Blows ability, and something that can be tailored to the individual Brawler.
I'm not arguing that it isn't mechanically sound. I'm saying that it's a good avenue to give the Brawler something unique and more... "Brawlery" than just more "Monkery" (??).

How about instead of increasing the damage through the roof, the brawler started at 1d6 damage, and then can tailor his unarmed strikes, gaining better critical range or multiplier (or limited one of both) or pick from a list of weapon special features.

So something like the following changes...

Quote:

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a brawler gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A brawler’s attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a brawler may make unarmed strikes with her hands full.

Usually a brawler’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A brawler’s unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that modify either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A brawler's unarmed strike damage is also increased to 1d6 for a Medium sized creature (1d4 for Small, 1d8 for Large). The brawler can use unarmed strikes as part of two weapon fighting, dealing normal damage for using light weapons (half Strength damage on the offhand attacks), however the attacks do not need to be made with different parts of the body.
If the brawler instead makes a normal attack, or full attack action without offhand attacks, then the unarmed strike damage is doubled (2d6 for Medium, 2d4 for Small and 2d8 for Large), and she applies 1-1/2 Strength damage, similar to making an attack with a two-handed weapon.

Design Thoughts: The Brawler loses out on full Strength damage for making two weapon fighting style of extra attacks, so other than needing only a single weapon (unarmed strikes), they are the same as normal combatants.

The option to basically do "two-handed" unarmed strikes gives the Brawler the choice of slower, more devastating strikes, that mimic two-handed combat (something they get from their Fighter parentage).
Now you can build a TWF Brawler, or resort to just slaming people around with big hits. Nice thing is that this gives Charge and Vital Strike options for the big hitter Brawler too. Different ways to play.

And note: all without being in any way "stronger" than what a Fighter could do with his weapons, damage-wise.

.

Quote:

Brawler Disciplines: As the brawler gains experience, she learns a number of disciplines that improve her ability to strike at foes. Starting at 2nd level, the brawler can choose one brawler discipline. Every 4 additional levels the brawler may choose an additional brawler discipline.

Disciplines grant benefits that apply when using brawler unarmed strikes, weapons with the close weapon group, and melee weapons with the monk special feature, unless otherwise noted.
Disciplines can only be applied to brawler gained unarmed strikes; they do not function with unarmed strike features gained from another class.

Additionally, for every discipline chosen, the Brawler can ignore 2 points of damage reduction. This is reduced by one half for untyped damage reduction. This does not stack with the Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike feats.

Unless otherwise noted, a discipline can be selected only once. All brawler disciplines are extraordinary in nature.

Crushing Strike: The brawler's unarmed strikes crit multiplier is increased to x3. This discipline can be selected a second time to increase the multiplier to x4, however you must not have selected the precise strike discipline.
This does not improve any other weapon other than unarmed strikes and shuriken.

Deadly Strike: The brawler may attempt a coup-de-grace as a standard action. In order to select this discipline, she must have the Critical Focus feat, or have selected at least two disciplines in any combination of crushing strikes or precise strikes.

Deflection: The brawler gains a +3 shield bonus to AC when fighting defensively. This stacks with the blocking weapon special feature.

Grabbing Blow: The brawler can entangle herself with her enemy when attacking. On a successful critical hit, she can attempt a combat maneuver check to grapple her opponent as a free action.

Interference: The brawler gains a +4 bonus on Bluff skill checks to feint in combat. This stacks with the distracting weapon special feature.

Ironhand: The brawler's unarmed strikes can bypass hardness 20 in objects, and bypass DR/adamantine.
This does not improve any other weapon other than unarmed strikes.

Nimble: The brawler can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply her Dexterity bonus instead of Strength bonus to attack rolls. This discipline can be selected a second time, granting weapons that are already finessable (such as light weapons, unarmed strikes, and certain other weapons) to gain Dexterity bonus to damage instead of Strength. Dexterity damage is multiplied normally on two-handed strikes, however it is precision based damage and does not apply towards creatures immune to critical hits.
This second application of this discipline also applies towards shuriken.

Off-balance: The brawler is treated as one size larger when making and defending against combat maneuvers.

Precise Strike: The brawler's unarmed strikes crit range is increased to 19-20. This discipline can be selected a second time to increase the range to 18-20, however you must not have selected the crushing strike discipline.
This does not improve any other weapon other than unarmed strikes and shuriken.

Swatting Strike: The brawler gains a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to disarm an enemy. This stacks with the disarming weapon special feature.

Design Thoughts: This allows a Brawler to build his unarmed strikes (or combat with close/monk weapons) to many different ways.

You gain bonuses at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th an 18th levels. Since it would replace brawler's strike and flurry, you could move Knockout down to 12th level to make sure there's no empty levels. It also makes it so Knockout->Awesome Blow->Improved Awesome Blow is a 4 level jump each time.

Regarding the discplines themselves, the "strongest" brawler unarmed strikes can get is 2d6 19-20/x3. Kinda like a 2-handed version (1 step up) from a falcata. If that scares people, then take out the language that allows mixing Crushing Strikes and Precise Strikes.
Other strong disciplines (like a coup-de-grace as a standard action, allowing a move up and kill) require a number of discplines or high level feat choice to force it to be a high level option only (min 10th+).

Dex to damage is in there, which once again, if it scares people just take out that 2nd selection of Nimble. However, it is relegated to finesse weapons only, and starts at 6th level+ (similar to a Pistolero's Dex bonus to damage).
Note however, that the Crushing Strikes, Precise Strikes, and 2xNimble disciplines make it so that the Brawler can use shuriken for their ranged combat at the very least, and not feel completely let down by their class (1d2+Dex 19-20/x3 weapon).

The built-in feature of damage reduction penetration mimics the feats, and with 5 total discplines it grants up to 10 DR penetration (or 5 vs DR/-). Highest DRs are in the 15s (I believe), so by the time you have 10 reduction, DR 5 won't be as harmful.
It also breaks away from the "supernatural" feel of enhancing against alignments and such things, giving a better thematic value to the class.
As I understand it, how the class feels in play is just as important here... complaints about feeling too much like the Monk, or too mystical, are as valid as "this class feature doesn't do enough damage for it's level, etc".

With this you could build...

A Brawler that attacks less often, but blasts for huge damage (massive on a critical hit), destroys objects like they are paper (sundering enemy weapons/armor with his bare hands!), overbears his opponents in combat maneuvers, and can run up and kill a helpless person before anyone knows what happened.

Or...

A Brawler that makes many quick precise attacks, most often in critical areas, grappling a quarter of the time, and dealing major damage despite being a weak old man.

Or...

A Brawler that flings a deadly barrage of shuriken at range, and when people get close, deflect attacks better or disarm them.

Or any combination of that. Distinct brawler combat styles abound.


+1 I'm all in favor of changes that give the brawler a unique feel. I'd vote for many more Brawler Disciplines though, both in terms of choices available as well as frequency (i.e. one discipline every 2 levels).


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You know...I don't know if anyone has brought this up yet or not, but since the brawler is a dedicated melee class, why doesn't it have Fast Movement or something similar?


@LadyWurm: for the same reason that other melee classes (except for the monk, and a lesser extent barbarian) don't have Fast Movement. And just like other melee classes the brawler has no trouble picking up a crossbow and shooting it at an enemy.


Also because the brawler is limited to light armor, he could take fleet feet several times and it stacks add boots of speed and your moving 50ft in no time.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Let's phrase this differently. Why are barbarians faster than brawlers?


Because barbarians are superhumanly angry. So angry they can perform amazing feats of strength, move incredibly fast, and keep fighting past the point they should be dead.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The rules say that Dodge bonuses to AC are also added to CMD.

Does this mean that the AC class ability doubles up on bonuses to CMD? If so, it would be totally in line with them being maneuver masters.

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Removed a post. Discussion or mention of rape is only acceptable on paizo.com when referring to the topic of sexual assault. Let's keep it out of the playtest threads, please.


Ravingdork wrote:

The rules say that Dodge bonuses to AC are also added to CMD.

Does this mean that the AC class ability doubles up on bonuses to CMD? If so, it would be totally in line with them being maneuver masters.

Yeah it sure does. It makes them masters of Maneuvers. One in our group last session, Grappled a Devil Handmaiden by him self and subdued her. in 2 rounds. He was 4 hit dice lower then her also.

Liberty's Edge

KainPen wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

The rules say that Dodge bonuses to AC are also added to CMD.

Does this mean that the AC class ability doubles up on bonuses to CMD? If so, it would be totally in line with them being maneuver masters.

Yeah it sure does. It makes them masters of Maneuvers. One in our group last session, Grappled a Devil Handmaiden by him self and subdued her. in 2 rounds. He was 4 hit dice lower then her also.

Actually, it doesn't. Regardless of the bonus's type, multiple bonuses from the same source never stack. So while the ability says you get +X dodge to AC (and by extension to CMD) and then +X to CMD as well, you still only get +X to CMD, not +2X, because both bonuses come from the same source, and thus do not stack.

Of course, the wording of that ability is obviously a mistake in the first place, so when they remove the redundancy this issue won't even need to be clarified anyway.


My bad, I thought ravendork was talking about adding that ac bonus to cmd at all. preforming double duty of adding + to ac and cmd. SO bush is correct, you can't double up on it taking it twice. but you can add other dodge bonus to it. from feat, combat expertise, fighting defensively ect.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

I appreciate the suggestion of brawler disciplines, but the brawler already gets 7 bonus combat feats, and bonus combat feats are how you customize individual members of this class. Anything like these suggested brawler disciplines are exactly the sort of thing that would make an interesting combat feat, and should be available to any character able to select combat feats (because these aren't unique, magical abilities, because this isn't a magical class, so they're things you should be able to learn with the proper training, and therefore should be combat feats).


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
I appreciate the suggestion of brawler disciplines, but the brawler already gets 7 bonus combat feats, and bonus feats are how you customize individual members of this class. Anything like these suggested brawler disciplines are exactly the sort of thing that would make an interesting combat feat, and should be available to any character able to select combat feats (because these aren't unique, magical abilities, because this isn't a magical class, so they're things you should be able to learn with the proper training, and therefore should be combat feats).

Man that would be really cool. Some of those disciplines WOULD make a really cool feat.

But the reasoning behind that is odd. Because those abilities are mundane in nature and learnable through proper training because this is a martial class they would be better suited as feats that everyone could pick from.

Couldn't we apply that logic to everything the Fighter or Rogue has? I would kill for a Weapon Training feat for the Rogue (Ohmygosh archetype!) or armor training for a Paladin or Cleric.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Yes, we could apply that logic that way, but that ship has sailed for the fighter and rogue.


Sean Maybe you guys should release a new core book down the line and fix the fighter and rogue. Add all the class in one book, It would be a pretty hefty book, but you guys could adjust spell spiritual weapon to work with cha for original since that is there casting stat instead of wisdom. Add all the FAQ adjustments and stuff like that all in one massive volume. Update the old stuff to match all the new stuff, fixing those ships that already sailed by bring them back into port again. I would buy it =) It be 1000+ pages but it would be awesome.


Soo... what you're saying then is there should be a Rage Feat? Rage Power Feat (not extra rage power, a feat that lets you take Rage Powers)?
Uncanny Dodge Feat? Improved?
Evasion Feat? Improved?
Favored Enemy Feat?
Favored Terrain Feat?
Hunters Bond Feat?


I don't understand anybody saying that Monk has the highest damage dice of any PC. Monk has the highest damage dice of any PC at level 16. At any level before that, a great many other PCs are packing 2d6 (or the mostly equivalent 1d12), even as early as level 1. And they're getting another +half strength to damage on single attacks. (Full attacks only exist at high levels when fighting another melee creature. Anyone else is either going to tumble or take the AoO so that you never get more than two attacks.) And Monks never get an increased threat range without spending feats.

From 1-3 a Monk or Brawler is using the equivalent of a club while a Warrior (and I do mean the NPC class) is using a Masterwork Longsword that gives +1 to hit and does 1d8 damage, 19-20/x2. The monk matches the d8 at level 4, but never overcomes the "19-20/x2" part, and if the Warrior's using a Greatsword (or my personal favorite weapon, the Falchion), then even at high levels it's hard to claim the monk has the best base damage. 2d10, 20/x2 may look better than 2d4, 17-20/x2, but with a high strength, weapon training, a magic weapon, and power attack it's pretty clear that the Falchion is the more damaging weapon at level 20.

Now, Flurry does help here on a full attack, but the penalty to hit at low levels and the fact that it only works on a full attack and the fact that Furious Focus exists means the Falchion guy still has a major attack bonus.

My suggestion: Let Brawler make two attacks as a standard action. This would mean that the thing they're supposed to be doing (attacking more often for less damage) would work all the time. And yeah, make enchanting an unarmed strike cost the same as enchanting a weapon.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

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Tels wrote:

Soo... what you're saying then is there should be a Rage Feat? Rage Power Feat (not extra rage power, a feat that lets you take Rage Powers)?

Uncanny Dodge Feat? Improved?
Evasion Feat? Improved?
Favored Enemy Feat?
Favored Terrain Feat?
Hunters Bond Feat?

Is that what I'm saying? I don't see where I've said anything like that. I'm talking about combat feats, and you're trying to broaden that into "every single nonmagical class feature." Don't.


A feat or trait to let you do the Captain Kirk two handed overhead smash would be nifty.

:)

-j


On the topic of magic gloves... how about magical belts of different colors? That enhance the entire body? Perhaps adding on appropriate Strength bonuses? More expensive, sure, but brawlers eventually need gloves of Dexterity anyway.

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