I don't get the double limit on the elemental bloodline's level 1 power.
So to recap no actual improvement on casting -- plus a bunch of damage dealing spells == self buffing barbarian archetype.
An item or archetype could fix this problem with minimal effort. Add a ring of Evasion and poof! Problem solved. I'd like to see either included in the book.
An item or archetype could fix this problem with minimal effort. Add a ring of Evasion and poof! Problem solved. I'd like to see either included in the book.So to recap no actual improvement on casting -- plus a bunch of damage dealing spells == self buffing barbarian archetype.
... or we could have a class designed to not be a self buffing barbarian.
I mean honestly who looks at the barbarian and says, "Lets take the rage powers away, give it 4th level casting, an automatic buffing spell when it gets greater and might rage as well as bloodline powers and that will be balanced."
I'm also disappointed to see the whole kneecapped spell list--lets give you damage spells that you wont use, since they come late and generally capped out BEFORE you get them, that are also competing with your buffs and actually attacking things with your sword!
so hooray, we get another buffing melee-er to the pile of them, great job paizo.
Not much different but I was never real big on this one to begin with.
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Well, people complaining about the blasting to be fair...blasting is usually always the subpar option for any spellcasters even moreso for a class with full bab and 4th level spell. Which I didn't understand during the previous version how so many people wanted to add more blasting stuffs. Usually any spellcaster is better off improving your melee prowess so you can one shot the enemy.
I tend to agree that adding some earlier access Polymorph spells like Monstrous physique/form of the dragon/geniekind etc would be very fitting.
Random thought: What if Blood Sanctuary not only granted the Bloodrager a bonus versus damage from his own spells and those of his allies, but on spells where he still fails his save it grants him (an) additional round()s of rage?
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I very much like having heroism and false life on the spell list, but it's kinda sucky only have spells from CRB/APG/UC/UM. I suppose avoiding having the list as a mess of superscript is a good thing, but it is a little unfortunate that bloodragers no longer have access to some cool tricks (Keep Watch comes to mind).
Just like haste, slow appears as both a 3 and a 4.
I think currently the only spell they have at a reduced spell level is Ablative Barrier, which is hardly unique.
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How about Bladed Dash? That was a magus spell I really looked forward to using with the Bloodrager. Perhaps Greater bladed dash could become a 4th level spell for them too?
Also, with how many bloodlines grant natural weapons, why is magic fang not present?
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The unique spell list is a good start but still needs a major revision including significant numbers of early entry spells so that the bloodrager can get at least some spells at levels where they are still relevant.
For comparison look at the paladin spell list. It is full of both early entry spells and paladin specific spells (many of which are swift actions to cast). The bloodrager spell list should look similar to have it work for a full-BAB 4 level caster.
I personally think that the bloodline spells should be both significant early entry as well as spells that are not otherwise on the bloodrager spell list in order to make them more relevant as well as help differentiate bloodragers of different bloodlines.
An item or archetype could fix this problem with minimal effort. Add a ring of Evasion and poof! Problem solved. I'd like to see either included in the book.So to recap no actual improvement on casting -- plus a bunch of damage dealing spells == self buffing barbarian archetype.
... or we could have a class designed to not be a self buffing barbarian.
I mean honestly who looks at the barbarian and says, "Lets take the rage powers away, give it 4th level casting, an automatic buffing spell when it gets greater and might rage as well as bloodline powers and that will be balanced."
Balanced is not their goal. The rule of cool prevails. There is something cool about enlarging when you get mad, the Hulk found out. Adding some other effects could be cool too.
I agree with you that the class should be more versatile from there. I would love if they could make spells like fear and confusion viable at high levels, that way a barbarian who transforms into, say a dragon has a legitimate scare factor going on.
There are a few things that could make it that way, and they don't have to be tied into the base class, because not everyone would want them. Self-buffing is probably the best way for them to go that would be useful for most players and you can make adjustments from there. I'd be surprised if all the possibilities for a class came from simple class features due to the amount of items out there that seem to be somewhat indispensable for certain builds. It's the nature of the system.
I also think that it's a good idea to tell people how you feel about it here, but again, knee-jerk reactions may not get the results you would like to see. Nothing's finalized yet. If there isn't an option for your style of bloodrager by the time the book comes out, I'll apologize for encouraging the high road on this one.
I've given the modified class a look over. There are some pretty nice changes (especially the changes to Greater/Mighty Bloodrage). Also, thank you for giving the draconic bloodline Form of the Dragon 2!
However, I feel like the real problem the class still has is that some of the Bloodlines are spread too thin. They are trying to cover a lot of thematic powers, but end up being too weak. Draconic, Fey, and Elemental bloodlines are great examples of this: Draconic needs a bite attack really badly so that the claws are worth using past level 6, and Fey needs some help (maybe a dex boost to fit the fey theme) badly. Elemental needs a more consistent way of doing elemental damage during early levels. However, there currently isn't any space in the bloodline to fit these abilities in without possibly removing other thematic powers from the bloodline!
Personally, I think it would be best if the Bloodrager class gave up some of its barbarian powers so that it can gain 1 or 2 additional abilities in each bloodline. This would also be an easy way to rebalance each bloodline without having to pick them apart.
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I'm cross-posting this from the shaman thread, because it ended up being more about the bloodrager anyway.
I'm a big fan of the [shaman] spell list change. It's a great compromise that gets the flavour of the spell list right without sacrificing backward compatibility by giving it its own brand new list. In fact, I'd kind of like a similar approach on the bloodrager maybe. The brand new bloodrager spell list ended up being so similar to the magus spell list anyway, but because it's not the magus spell list a lot of the cool magus spells from books like Inner Sea Magic that actually would have felt useful on a bloodrager will never be available to them.
Bladed dash, especially, will never be a bloodrager spell if the bloodrager has its own spell list. It comes from a Golarion-specific product, which means it won't be referenced in a core product unless it gets reprinted in a core product (like Ultimate Spells, *hint hint*). This is why I was a little weary of "new spell list" as the solution, rather than "new mechanics to help fit an existing spell list". I didn't love the magus spell list with the existing bloodrager frame, but the new list doesn't work any better.
I really think bloodragers should either use an edited sorcerer or magus list (the way the shaman uses an edited druid list), or they should get a mechanic that helps incentivize them to cast more of the spells they have access to.
I'm cross-posting this from the shaman thread, because it ended up being more about the bloodrager anyway.
I'm a big fan of the [shaman] spell list change. It's a great compromise that gets the flavour of the spell list right without sacrificing backward compatibility by giving it its own brand new list. In fact, I'd kind of like a similar approach on the bloodrager maybe. The brand new bloodrager spell list ended up being so similar to the magus spell list anyway, but because it's not the magus spell list a lot of the cool magus spells from books like Inner Sea Magic that actually would have felt useful on a bloodrager will never be available to them.Bladed dash, especially, will never be a bloodrager spell if the bloodrager has its own spell list. It comes from a Golarion-specific product, which means it won't be referenced in a core product unless it gets reprinted in a core product (like Ultimate Spells, *hint hint*). This is why I was a little weary of "new spell list" as the solution, rather than "new mechanics to help fit an existing spell list". I didn't love the magus spell list with the existing bloodrager frame, but the new list doesn't work any better.
I really think bloodragers should either use an edited sorcerer or magus list (the way the shaman uses an edited druid list), or they should get a mechanic that helps incentivize them to cast more of the spells they have access to.
How about if improved uncanny dodge was replaced with an improved Blood Sanctuary where the bloodrager becomes immune to their own spell damage and Bloodrager's could cast AOE spells centered on themselves as a standard action combined with a melee attack? I think it would encourage the casting of fireball a lot more.
Is it an oversight that Elemental Bloodline bloodragers cannot do that thing that elemental bloodline sorcerers do? the whole
Whenever you cast a spell that deals energy damage, you can change the type of damage to match the type of your bloodline. This also changes the spell's type to match the type of your bloodline.
Thing? I wanna shoot electric damage fireballs and burning hands.
Rage fatigue is not the primary balancing method, rounds are. Even barbarians eventually become tireless ragers. It's just a levy, and if someone wants to pay it with a level dip rather than occasionally dealing with fatigue penalties, I think that's okay.
Burning hands is a really under-rated spell when it comes to mid-CR swarms.
I can still have my black tentacles, but only if I am an Aberrant freak. Sweet.
The main thing that will prevent bloodragers from rage cycling is that they may want a spell that they cast at the start of their rage to stick around for an entire battle. If anything, becoming immune to fatigue is a fairly pointless ability for a bloodrager if it plans to reach level 11.
The main thing that will prevent bloodragers from rage cycling is that they may want a spell that they cast at the start of their rage to stick around for an entire battle. If anything, becoming immune to fatigue is a fairly pointless ability for a bloodrager if it plans to reach level 11.
Becoming immune to fatigue helps a lot. You ever been shot with a ray of exhaustion and kicked out of rage because of it?
I am kinda of thinking there is Too much Barbarian in this Hybrid that it kinda of replaces barbarian. There should not gain DR...Uncanny Dodge...Fast Movement....and there Rage should be weaker than a barbarians(IE I don't think they should get mighty or tireless rage at any level).
Otherwise it look like a good class.
The main thing that will prevent bloodragers from rage cycling is that they may want a spell that they cast at the start of their rage to stick around for an entire battle. If anything, becoming immune to fatigue is a fairly pointless ability for a bloodrager if it plans to reach level 11.Becoming immune to fatigue helps a lot. You ever been shot with a ray of exhaustion and kicked out of rage because of it?
I don't think Fatigue stops your Rage... It just makes you unable to start a new one.
The unique spell list is a good start but still needs a major revision including significant numbers of early entry spells so that the bloodrager can get at least some spells at levels where they are still relevant.
As is it's not even a good start. For me the new spell list kills the class. Non of the spells I wanted to use is still on there.
As long as the class doesn't get any Swift casting the new spell list is plain useless in my eyes.Byebye bloodrager.
We have our next playtest session scheduled for tomorrow and I guess I'll be telling my GM that I want to keep the Magus list or roll up another class for the game.
Bye bye bloodrager. *sadpanda*
We have our next playtest session scheduled for tomorrow and I guess I'll be telling my GM that I want to keep the Magus list or roll up another class for the game.
Bye bye bloodrager. *sadpanda*
So, instead of playtesting it (the point of the playtest) and trying it out to give real feedback you're just dumping it now? Strange.
So, instead of playtesting it (the point of the playtest) and trying it out to give real feedback you're just dumping it now? Strange.We have our next playtest session scheduled for tomorrow and I guess I'll be telling my GM that I want to keep the Magus list or roll up another class for the game.
Bye bye bloodrager. *sadpanda*
I don't Need to Play it to know that none of the spells (except perhaps featherfall) suits my style of Play. And as such I will not use them. What's the Point in playing a spellcaster without spells to cast?
Edit: my damn autocorrect keeps on writing things with large letters, sorry for that.
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Permit me to just cut in here and ask for a clarification - Bloodline Powers: By default, do you only have them while raging? I just downloaded the new version, I'm looking at it, and the wording looks distinctly unclear. Unless I overlooked it, neither the primary descriptions of the Bloodrage nor Bloodline class features stipulate that Bloodline Powers only apply while raging - but at the beginning of each specific Bloodline Powers spiel, it says something that suggests you only get them when you rage.
Consider the Undead Bloodline: Frightful Charger, Death's Gift, Ghost Strike, and Incorporeal Bloodrager are all silent on the issue. Frightful Strikes specifically says "once per bloodrage" - clear enough. Compare that to the Elemental Bloodline's Elemental Strikes power, which says "three times a day [and the deal improves with levels]" and says nothing about raging or not. The trouble arises when the Elemental Bloodline's Elemental Body, the Undead Bloodline's One Foot In The Grave, and several other Bloodline Powers sprinkled around (including the majority of 20th-level powers) make the effort to mention "You have these benefits constantly, even while not bloodraging." Why would they bother to spell that out if these abilities aren't exceptions to an unspoken but otherwise-universal rule?
In the first paragraph about bloodlines it is specified:
Unless otherwise specified, he only gains
the effects of his bloodline powers while in a bloodrage;
once a bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline
immediate cease. Any that cause a physical change revert
to normal when the bloodrage ends.
So unless the power clearly tells you that you can use it out of rage you can't.
On the spell list:
I looked at some other spell lists and it seems that for me every single other spell list in the game would fit my image of the bloodrager and what he should be able to do with his spells better than his own spell list.
That includes even the adept's list.
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In the first paragraph about bloodlines it is specified:
So unless the power clearly tells you that you can use it out of rage you can't.Unless otherwise specified, he only gains
the effects of his bloodline powers while in a bloodrage;
once a bloodrage ends, all powers from his bloodline
immediate cease. Any that cause a physical change revert
to normal when the bloodrage ends.
Oh. Okay, I did totally miss that. In that case, though, I don't know - I'm inclined think that's a little weak. It's in line with the effects of normal Barbarian Rage Powers, of course, but what I guess I'd do is make more exceptions (with a special eye on the kinds of powers gained at 1st and 3rd level).
On the spell list:
I looked at some other spell lists and it seems that for me every single other spell list in the game would fit my image of the bloodrager and what he should be able to do with his spells better than his own spell list.
That includes even the adept's list.
The spell list is mostly fine, I think. Mostly. What I'd want is a way for them to channel certain spells through their weapons (maybe not fireball, although that would, at the very least, be funny). The Magus' Spellstrike, Arcane Archer's Imbue Arrow, whatever ability it was the Spellsword from Tome and Blood and Complete Warrior had...something like that.
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The bloodrager concept is all about the bloodline, and yet bloodline spells are gained late.
The bloodrager gains his bloodline spells 3 levels late - he gains his first level bloodline spell when he gains his second level normal spell, and so on. While I can see balance reasons to have the bloodline spells come late in this way, I feel it hurts the concept a lot (just like the similar effect on the sorcerer does).
I feel that the bloodline spell should be the power that comes to the bloodrager (and sorcerer) early and naturally. It ought to be the first spell of each level he learns. If this means the bloodrager spells known list has to be scaled back, I can live with that. I could actually see how the bloodrager would get ONLY the bloodline spells at levels where he has zero spells of a particular level (levels 4, 7, 10, and 13).
About the spell list outside of bloodline spells, I don't mind the current spell list, but why not simply use the magus list? Afraid of the "wall" spells?
This spell list is pretty awful overall though. While there are some new spells on it, the Magus list has at least 6+ spells for each one that got added. Overall the list now is much smaller and many good spells were lost.
This is more or less my opinion. I can't really see any of those spells added being spells without this class would not work.
On another note, the +2 to saves against friendly spells is weird. It's not like the Bloodrager has evasion, so he's still going to get hurt. Additionally, +2 is NOT a reliable bonus. It's not something to make you confident you are going to make saves if you weren't confident before.
Most likely something to offset the crippled/useless spell list without meaningful doing anything.
I really liked (you could say loved) the class before the revision. Now it's wasted pages. Much like the warpriest was before the revision.
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The direct damage spells were always a problem, both with the original spell list and the new one. The problem with the magus spell list is the large amount of trap options, sure a little of that is bound to happen, but why choose fireball if your going to do more damage more reliably with your greatsword. Sure the magus spell list had some useful spells, but about half the spell list was pointless. The new spell list is practically the same (honestly it's like 70% identical), we got some new and useful spells but lost some really good ones, and ironically the fireball, burning hands, lightning bolt, and similar spells that should have gone away, didn't. Or, they have changed the bloodrage mechanic to add a bonus to charisma while raging to raise the DC's of their spells, or changed their casting stat to Con, or removed (improved) uncanny dodge and added in two new abilities that increased the DC & damage of their spells while raging.
My only issue with the original bloodrager was why cast spells other then a few buffs, and my current issue with the class is why cast spells other then a few buffs. The bloodline powers/feats and the rage mechanic synergies quite nicely, but the spell-casting feels tacked on almost pointless.
Still I have to play-test or it's all just theory crafting, and I won't be able to do so until Thursday.
The most important spell at 1st level which the magus did have and the bloodrager lacks is vanish. You are a glass cannon lacking all the damage mitigation the barbarian has. Now you don't even have the escape option vanish gave.
Other than that I used one spell more than once and that was keep watch. What a cool utility spell. Gone now. And the last one I had chosen was swift girding. Really valuable even with "only" medium armor. Especially if you have to sleep because you can't cast keep watch.
The new list deleted all the utility and versatility that being a spellcaster normally gets you.
But no, it still has a little utility left. Endure elements, spider climb, water breathing are still in. That's one for each of the first three spell levels.
There's also the bizarre and ridiculous focus on direct damage spells. The Bloodrager, despite the flavor text, still has ZERO affinity for these spells. His DCs will be lower, the damage will be low (low damage caps), and overall casting or learning them is a horrible idea.
I agree here. I really don't see why the bloodrager would ever cast a spell that has a save DC honestly. Unless he gains an ability that increases the DC of his spells *and* the max damage dice of his spells then they're going to be an overlooked part of the class.
I find Blood Sanctuary very weird; bonuses against your own spells? Definitely. Bonuses against your allies' spells? Just seems weird to me.
I'm going to second the casting issues. It may be because I come from a high power level background, but I just feel like the Bloodrager is not going to be able to effectively cast any spell that has a save DC. Charisma is a secondary stat at best, and coupled with slow spell progression, it just seems futile. By the time the Bloodrager can cast the archetypical blaster spell, fireball, he's level 10, if I'm remembering my chart right (no access at work). And his Charisma is likely to be in the vein of 16, 18 at the very high end. That's a DC (sans spell focus, which I doubt he has the feats for) of 16-17. Looking at the monster creation guidelines table, a CR 10 foe has a poor save of +9, and a good of +13. A 35-40% chance of an enemy with a poor Reflex save failing against your best spell seems sad. Even a group of CR 7 foes have a 50% or so chance of success, with a poor Reflex save.
When compared to a same-level sorcerer's best spell, we're talking about a save DC that's 4-5 points lower. These comparatively weak save DCs turn those spells into traps, and lead the Bloodrager to being, as has been said, yet another melee character who buffs himself before (and sometimes during) combat.
The changes to Greater/Mighty Bloodrage do an excellent job reinforcing the self-buffing melee warrior, but we need something to prop up offensive casting so it's worth the standard action when we do it. In that vein, I'd like to replace Blood Sanctuary with an ability that boosts your save DCs while raging. Blood Focus, I suppose (the name's freed up from the Arcanist, I think), boosts your Bloodrager spell save DCs by 2 while raging? I'm not sure 2 is enough.
I know that in the time available there wasn't much opportunity to do anything with new spells for the Bloodrager spell list, but for the full book there is time.
Let me describe what I'd like to see in that spell list:
- Self-buff spells
- Blast spells (single & multi-target)
- A little bit of basic utility; not enough to compete with the full caster, but to have some spells worth spending slots on outside of combat and combat prep. Things more like mount than comprehend languages.
- Some early access to spells, to compensate for the slow progression itself.
- Some non-standard action spells; these could be swift, or even move actions. (Or an ability on the Bloodrager to do some limited quickening of spells.) These would probably be unique spells written for the Bloodrager.
- I'd love to see dispel magic back on the list, because of how useful it is, but I could also see that as an excellent bonus spell for the arcane bloodline.
I also think we should remove or tone down something from the barbarian feature set.
And finally, it seems there's a lot of review needed on the bloodlines, as a lot of the bloodlines just seem lackluster. Fey in particular seems weak, and for brute melee power, nothing seems to come close to Abyssal, giving you claws in the early game, and then size & strength bonuses later on. Arcane looks excellent as an anti-caster (especially if the 3rd-level spell changes from lightning bolt to dispel magic, and the True Arcane Bloodrage list changes so as not to mess with your core competencies (none of those spells allow you to still both cast and fight with a weapon).
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Oh wow, the bloodrager spell list got *worse*. Bloodrager needs abjurations, conjurations, illusions and transmutations. Not all those blasty evocation and necromancy spells that have super low save DC's. What good does a 9th level Bloodrager tossing out DC 14 2nd level spells do in combat? He attacks, thats what. By loading the spell list down with blasty spells, we're shoehorning this guy into a suboptimal role.
Also, we're still missing a distinction in Bloodline on whether it functions as a sorcerer's bloodline in regards to feats and other requirements. Also, we're still missing a notice in Spells that the class is LVL-3 for Caster Level or some unique CL4 before I can cast a 1st level spell.
Oh wow, the bloodrager spell list got *worse*. Bloodrager needs abjurations, conjurations, illusions and transmutations. Not all those blasty evocation and necromancy spells that have super low save DC's. What good does a 9th level Bloodrager tossing out DC 14 2nd level spells do in combat? He attacks, thats what. By loading the spell list down with blasty spells, we're shoehorning this guy into a suboptimal role.
Also, we're still missing a distinction in Bloodline on whether it functions as a sorcerer's bloodline in regards to feats and other requirements. Also, we're still missing a notice in Spells that the class is LVL-3 for Caster Level or some unique CL4 before I can cast a 1st level spell.
I agree that the spell list got 'worse'. It's more thematic now, shouting Fireballs at people is very blood-rage-y to me, but mechanically there isn't much reason to as-is. They definitely need a DC boost to these if they want this list.
Otherwise, I'll just be requesting the 1-4 Magus list for my Bloodrager so I can keep the actual utility spells.
Oh wow, the bloodrager spell list got *worse*. Bloodrager needs abjurations, conjurations, illusions and transmutations. Not all those blasty evocation and necromancy spells that have super low save DC's. What good does a 9th level Bloodrager tossing out DC 14 2nd level spells do in combat? He attacks, thats what. By loading the spell list down with blasty spells, we're shoehorning this guy into a suboptimal role.
Also, we're still missing a distinction in Bloodline on whether it functions as a sorcerer's bloodline in regards to feats and other requirements. Also, we're still missing a notice in Spells that the class is LVL-3 for Caster Level or some unique CL4 before I can cast a 1st level spell.
already been said previously, BRs have full CL, unlike the paladin and ranger--specifically to help their rather wimpy spells, since they lack the synergistic options of the paladin (swift action spells) and ranger (good long-term utility and buffs) lists.
so yes, you end up with the odd (but helpful) CL4 when you first get to start casting.
I stand by the idea that the Bloodrager needs:
A) Some way to boost his save DCs.
B) It's own version of Spellstrike (to make those blasty spells not worthless compared to a full attack).
Do that, and I'd love this class to death.
Don't do that, and it stays as just another boring self-buffer that this system is already bloated to death with.
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Oh wow, the bloodrager spell list got *worse*.
I do not understand this position. Bloodrager has now traded a little bit of their crowd control spells for better buffs. Overall, their spell list is stronger than the magus list up to the same level because very few people will attempt to DC cast with them. Yes, the loss of vanish is a little painful. But I would happily trade that for resist energy, heroism and see invisibility (which magus's do not get) any day of the week. The loss of black tentacles and web and the like is not really a problem since most bloodragers won't be rocking a huge Cha.
Bloodrager kept all of the other great buffs from the magus list as well. If it is utility that you feel is missing, I think such things have more cause to be in the hands of the Investigator or the like anyhow.
I'm late to the party, it seems. I just saw that the new document was released and scrambled to check out the Bloodrager. This is way closer to the class I was hoping for. I'm posting this before reading through the rest of the discussion, but I'll touch on my first thoughts before backtracking. Because I'm impatient sometimes.
I'm a bit disappointed in the Bloodrager spell list. Shaman got this awesome hybrid spell list that works really well for what they're doing. They have access to spells like Gozreh's Trident or Vinetrap or any other awesome Druid spell from some splatbook or another. Bloodrager got a smattering of specific spells that'll never see anything out of the heap of books we already have out with tons of awesome and thematic spells.
Note: This is a kneejerk response and I'll probably revisit this idea later when this has had more time to sink in.
The spell list is just a stub, I guess, since it's very short. If the theme works, it will be expanded, won't it?