Lead Designer
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Bloodrager. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
-Waits for the revision to be posted-
EDIT: Oh man, looks like a lot of revisions are coming down the pipeline. I'm excited.
EDIT2: Still feeling like Abyssal takes the cake in terms of pure overwhelming power. I find it a little irritating (personally) that it still dwarfs celestial and infernal in terms of power, considering those would be "comparable" sources of power. I do like the whole "work even while not bloodraging" addition to a lot of the capstones, but considering that most people will never see that come into play, I'm not really sure how relevant it is. Still absolutely adore the class though.
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I noticed that the Destined Bloodline's level 8 power, "Certain Strike", has been unaltered. Combined with rage cycling (from a lvl 3+ paladin's Mercy, Oracle's lame curse, human trait, etc) this means "reroll 1 attack roll per round, as long as you are raging." It seems overly powerful to me.
The bonus spell lists for the various bloodlines are still a total joke, I'm afraid. I mean, Draconics get Fear as a 4th level spell at level 16. I'm sure that will come in handy. Or Elementals with Burning hands at level 7 - 2 levels after it capped out. Most of the bonus spells are completely pointless by the time they are granted. This really needs to be changed, I feel.
I noticed that the Destined Bloodline's level 8 power, "Certain Strike", has been unaltered. Combined with rage cycling (from a lvl 3+ paladin's Mercy, Oracle's lame curse, human trait, etc) this means "reroll 1 attack roll per round, as long as you are raging." It seems overly powerful to me.
I'm afraid I don't follow. Are you talking about ways to subvert the fatigue? Assuming a paladin is just sitting on you, waiting for you to end your rage and clear the fatigue, I'm not really sure how this is an issue. I would take it this is more to ensure Bloodragers who fight multiple times a day can re-use the ability, whereas otherwise a 1/day ability of a single reroll would seem a little underpowered.
Agree with you on the spells though. Fear is... Kind of a joke at that point.
I noticed that the Destined Bloodline's level 8 power, "Certain Strike", has been unaltered. Combined with rage cycling (from a lvl 3+ paladin's Mercy, Oracle's lame curse, human trait, etc) this means "reroll 1 attack roll per round, as long as you are raging." It seems overly powerful to me.I'm afraid I don't follow. Are you talking about ways to subvert the fatigue? Assuming a paladin is just sitting on you, waiting for you to end your rage and clear the fatigue, I'm not really sure how this is an issue. I would take it this is more to ensure Bloodragers who fight multiple times a day can re-use the ability, whereas otherwise a 1/day ability of a single reroll would seem a little underpowered.
Agree with you on the spells though. Fear is... Kind of a joke at that point.
There is a human racial trait that makes you immune to fatigue, so you can drop in and out of Rage (resetting the 1/bloodrage power freely) at will, without penalties. A 3-level dip into paladin means that you can use Lay on Hands with a Mercy to clear fatigue as a swift action on yourself. A 1-level Oracle dip allows for the same (Lame curse), and there's several other ways well before level 17 (when any Bloodrager can do it).
In other news, the level 8 Fey bloodline power "Blurring Charge" is still a strong contender for the most underwhelming ability of any class at that level. Seriously: Blur, for 1 round only, and just when you charge that round? Arcane gets Blur for the duration of an entire bloodrage at will from level 4 onwards, no matter what they do during their turns.
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One thing that strikes me as interesting is the new Blood sanctuary ability. Combined this with (improved) uncanny dodge, and well you could just target yourself with any area of effect offensive spell (like fireball). It's almost understandable, bloodragers are imbued with magic, and very destructive in their abilities so targeting yourself while running into a group of enemies seems appropriate.
There is a human racial trait that makes you immune to fatigue, so you can drop in and out of Rage (resetting the 1/bloodrage power freely) at will, without penalties. A 3-level dip into paladin means that you can use Lay on Hands with a Mercy to clear fatigue as a swift action on yourself. A 1-level Oracle dip allows for the same (Lame curse), and there's several other ways well before level 17 (when any Bloodrager can do it).I noticed that the Destined Bloodline's level 8 power, "Certain Strike", has been unaltered. Combined with rage cycling (from a lvl 3+ paladin's Mercy, Oracle's lame curse, human trait, etc) this means "reroll 1 attack roll per round, as long as you are raging." It seems overly powerful to me.I'm afraid I don't follow. Are you talking about ways to subvert the fatigue? Assuming a paladin is just sitting on you, waiting for you to end your rage and clear the fatigue, I'm not really sure how this is an issue. I would take it this is more to ensure Bloodragers who fight multiple times a day can re-use the ability, whereas otherwise a 1/day ability of a single reroll would seem a little underpowered.
Agree with you on the spells though. Fear is... Kind of a joke at that point.
Ahaaa, gotcha. Well, I definitely can see the issue there. I'm also pretty terrified of what this same rage-cycling barbrian could do with a fortune-maintaining Witch in his party. Essentially 2 rerolls a round every round... Yikes.
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Lead Designer
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There is a human racial trait that makes you immune to fatigue, so you can drop in and out of Rage (resetting the 1/bloodrage power freely) at will, without penalties. A 3-level dip into paladin means that you can use Lay on Hands with a Mercy to clear fatigue as a swift action on yourself. A 1-level Oracle dip allows for the same (Lame curse), and there's several other ways well before level 17 (when any Bloodrager can do it).
Just checking here, what racial trait are you referring to? The one in the ARG is only once per day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
There is a human racial trait that makes you immune to fatigue, so you can drop in and out of Rage (resetting the 1/bloodrage power freely) at will, without penalties. A 3-level dip into paladin means that you can use Lay on Hands with a Mercy to clear fatigue as a swift action on yourself. A 1-level Oracle dip allows for the same (Lame curse), and there's several other ways well before level 17 (when any Bloodrager can do it).Just checking here, what racial trait are you referring to? The one in the ARG is only once per day.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
You're correct (as usual). "Heart of the Fields" is once per day only. So a 1 level Oracle dip may well become very common, I'm afraid. There will always be people tempted by the power, and this one will have huge impact, especially in PFS, where GM fiat has no bearing.
I don't think that barbarian/bloodrager abilities should be designed with Rage cycling in mind. If the super cheesy builds are what design is based around, the game will go downhill quickly.
That boat has long sailed. I think it's better to make the fatigue unpreventable and be done with the issue once and for all. I'm not sure it's feasible to go back and change that in how a Barbarian works, though, and with that the bloodrager is equally free. So in home games it's not an issue, but...
I also noted the presence of inappropriate spells, especially save-or-die types, at high level. Fey is probably the worst, with deep slumber at level 13 (it only works on 10HD of creatures along with a couple other save-or-suffer kind of spells. The Bloodrager is unlikely to have extremely high Charisma, so combined with the extremely low spell level I can't see the DCs being high enough to make these spells generally useful.
A couple of the bloodlines also still compare poorly to each other. For example, Celestial and Infernal are very close. However, Celestial's bonus damage is always active from level 1, whereas the Infernal damage (which hits slightly more targets, but is the most common resistance type) has to be activated as a swift (interfering with Arcane Strike) and likely wouldn't stack with flaming (unlike the Celestial's, whose damage explicitly stacks with holy). At level 8, Celestials gets wings, while the Infernal just gets flaming on a charge (still doesn't stack, still often resisted, the Celestial still gets it free on all attacks). He has to wait all the way until 16 for the exact same wings, where the Celestial gets a nice reroll ability. Spells and feats do not make up the difference, though I would argue Celestial has the better set here too. While obviously not everything needs to be the same, I think there is a distinct power gab between the two archetypes.
I have similar sentiments towards Arcane and Fey, though they are less closely related.
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OOH OOH Look at all these blasty spells that I don't have enough slots for and aren't worth casting because I'm a CRAPPY CASTER!
So much for something other than another buffing martial class.
Angelic Protection has a hilarious typo. I believe it was meant to say "Deflection." =)
Haste is printed twice in the Bloodrager's Spell list. Once at 3rd and again at 4th.
The list itself was put together rather poorly. Save or Lose spells shouldn't be on there, at all.
Why is haste a level 4 spell for bloodragers? Everyone and their grandmother gets it at level 5 (4 for summoners...) but the poor 'rager needs to wait until level 13?
I couldn't find it in the old forum, but was a stance issued in regards to bloodline support for this class. Alternatively was a reason given why they made special bloodline adjustments for the bloodrager instead of making them use the standard sorc bloodlines in order to let any new bloodlines be worked in with minimal effort.
The other classes that get late-entry four-level spellcasting have text like "Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3." Is the bloodrager supposed to have equivalent text, and if not, do they have a caster level before level four?
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The other classes that get late-entry four-level spellcasting have text like "Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3." Is the bloodrager supposed to have equivalent text, and if not, do they have a caster level before level four?
So far yes, it has been stated that the BR has full caster Level.
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One thing that strikes me as interesting is the new Blood sanctuary ability. Combined this with (improved) uncanny dodge, and well you could just target yourself with any area of effect offensive spell (like fireball). It's almost understandable, bloodragers are imbued with magic, and very destructive in their abilities so targeting yourself while running into a group of enemies seems appropriate.
I believe you have Uncanny Dodge confused with Evasion.
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One thing that strikes me as interesting is the new Blood sanctuary ability. Combined this with (improved) uncanny dodge, and well you could just target yourself with any area of effect offensive spell (like fireball). It's almost understandable, bloodragers are imbued with magic, and very destructive in their abilities so targeting yourself while running into a group of enemies seems appropriate.I believe you have Uncanny Dodge confused with Evasion.
You're right, my bad.
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im not impressed witht he bloodrager spell list at all. i think it should be polymorph effects at lower then standard levels, similar to a summoners lower spell level choices, and damaging spells able to be applied on a faster then standerd cast time.
i would love for the blood rager to be able to cast a spell and charge, not stacking with pounce. this would m,ake a unique casting mechanic and would be a prevention of pounce abuse, or atleast an alternative.
undead , dragon form, and elemental form should be blood line spells, of the corrisponding levels (1/1 2/2/ 3/3 4/4) and those spells should then deminish the value of the bloodline in question.
while monsterous physique should be a standard 1/1 for all bloodlines.
thats how i would change the bloodrager to make it more of a powerful spell caster.
I actually like that idea enough that I hope that they make Blood Sanctuary way better. +2 is okay, but it doesn't seriously affect your decision-making in terms of dumping fireballs on yourself (or volunteering to have fireballs dumped on you.) "Guy who willingly stands in the area of allied spellcasting" is an AWESOME (and not outrageously powerful) sub-angle for a class to have.
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Nice, but it still heavily stomps on the Barbarian's toes. I really like this class, it's is, IMHO, the best designed class in the play test, but it really doesn't need 2 capstone abilities, the Barbarian's and a bloodline one.
Considering how powerful bloodlines are, and the fact that BRs have spell, Bloodrage really doesn't need to be as powerful as Rage. BRs also don't UC and DR. Even Tireless Bloodrage is unnecessary, since BRs don't have "once per Bloodrage" abilities.
Really, the only Barbarian that can compete with a BR is a highly optimized Pouncing Spell-sundering Barbarian with CaGM.
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I'm not sure what to think about the revision. I thought the original bloodrager was among the strongest of the first drafts, but it definitely wasn't perfect and it doesn't feel like enough changed in the port to this version. I like the additions to greater bloodrage and mighty bloodrage, and I think it was important to give bloodragers some way of melding casting with combat, but it feels a little late in their career and a little limited.
I personally think they borrow a little too much from the barbarian and should lose at least two of the following four abilities: fast movement, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction in favour of better spell melding at an earlier level. I really like the idea of them accruing points for doing martial things in combat that they can redeem later to quicken spells or add metamagic to spells without increasing the spell level. This lets them first and foremost be face-beaters, but gives them a way to channel that face-beating into relevant magic later on.
I'm glad they got their own spell list, but if the spell list resembles the one published in this PDF, it really, really needs to be accompanied by a mechanic like the aforementioned. There's just zero incentive to cast offensive spells with this class. It rarely (if ever) feels like the right decision, especially since most of those offensive spells are showing up way too late in their career to be relevant. If they get a way to add free metamagic (especially quicken), those spells become gravy on top of the face-beating plan, but right now they just feel wrong.
On the other hand, the list could easily lose those spells and focus more on early entry buffs and transmutation spells, in which case it wouldn't need the extra mechanic. This is trickier because this class really wants spells like Giant Form, Form of the Dragon, and Elemental Body, but they would need to be at much lower spell levels than they normally are, which opens up all sorts of scroll and wand-oriented cans of worms that probably shouldn't be opened. The better bet seems to me to keep the spell list more or less as it is and give it a mechanic that lets it benefit from such a spell list, which it currently can't.
I like Blood Sanctuary. It's a cool little level stuffer that doesn't impact much, but feels really cohesive. Kudos!
This is definitely on the right track, but I still think it feels too much like a barbarian with spells stapled to it, and I think it could be such a simple fix to replace Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge with a pool of points that begins each day empty but builds throughout the day and can be used in place of level increases when applying metamagic feats that the bloodrager knows to spells. It would also give bloodrager players an incentive to take metamagic feats as a replacement for the non-bloodrager-functional Extra Rage Power barbarian staple.
The other classes that get late-entry four-level spellcasting have text like "Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3." Is the bloodrager supposed to have equivalent text, and if not, do they have a caster level before level four?
One of the developers mentioned with the previous version that that text was intentionally ommitted, and bloodragers do get full caster level from 4th level on. Prior to 4th level, they don't have spells, so they wouldn't have a caster level, but when they hit 4th, they're immediately caster level 4.
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You're right, my bad.One thing that strikes me as interesting is the new Blood sanctuary ability. Combined this with (improved) uncanny dodge, and well you could just target yourself with any area of effect offensive spell (like fireball). It's almost understandable, bloodragers are imbued with magic, and very destructive in their abilities so targeting yourself while running into a group of enemies seems appropriate.I believe you have Uncanny Dodge confused with Evasion.
That is an awesome idea though, wouldn't mind swapping out UC for Evasion so I could just nuke myself and everyone around me :3
Thank you for listening. The bloodlines are more balanced, there is now reason not to go Dragon Disciple instead of Bloodrager to level 20. The added mechanic of being able to cast spells while beginning to rage is good.
Ben Roe is right, level 11 is really late for any bloodline besides Arcane (and Abyssal) to have spells they cast while raging. Perhaps if you made it more incremental and did first level spells at 6, 2nd at 11th, 3rd at 16th, and 4th at 20th, it would do the trick.
The HD requirement for spells is an easy work around as well, that would really shake up the class a bit. You should have a feat or a class ability that would ignore the HD requirements on spells cast when beginning a rage, or give a bonus equal to that limit based on their Strength bonus or something like that. It would make all the complaints about that part of the class go away (for reasonable people anyway). With another feat have one that can give a bonus to the maximum number of dice used when casting a blasting spell, and it makes the caster part of this class be more exciting.
I wouldn't mind trading some of the barbarian goodies for such a possibility. I appreciate you listening, and I think that you have done a good job of making this class unique and fun.
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Thank you for listening. The bloodlines are more balanced, there is now reason not to go Dragon Disciple instead of Bloodrager to level 20. The added mechanic of being able to cast spells while raging is good.
Ben Roe is right, level 11 is really late for any bloodline besides Arcane (and Abyssal) to have spells they cast while raging. Perhaps if you made it more incremental and did first level spells at 6, 2nd at 11th, 3rd at 16th, and 4th at 20th, it would do the trick.
The HD requirement for spells is an easy work around as well, that would really shake up the class a bit. You should have a feat or a class ability that would ignore the HD requirements on spells cast when beginning a rage, or give a bonus equal to that limit based on their Strength bonus or something like that. It would make all the complaints about that part of the class go away (for reasonable people anyway). With another feat have one that can give a bonus to the maximum number of dice used when casting a blasting spell, and it makes the caster part of this class be more exciting.
I wouldn't mind trading some of the barbarian goodies for such a possibility. I appreciate you listening, and I think that you have done a good job of making this class unique and fun.
They've always been able to cast their spells while raging.
Two capstones is kind of ridiculous, but honestly I think this class could ditch improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction, and possibly even uncanny dodge.
Though the swift action first level abilities to buff damage will face a lot of competition from Arcane Strike. I think they should become free actions around level 7 or 10. This probably would not overpower Infernal and Elemental bloodlines.
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I agree with Lemmy that this class is still stomping all over a Core Barb's toes.
But more than that, I think you guys entirely missed the point with requests for a separate spell list. This class NEEDS some early-access spells. Without them, why even bother? Level 13 Fire Shield? No thanks.
Can we keep Mount/Phantom Steed on the list? I liked being mounted on magic :c
The Fey bloodline still has a more-or-less useless level 1 ability, at that level at least. You need all of these to be true to have an effect:
You need to be in a bloodrage
You need to make a crit threat, hit and confirm the hit.
The target needs to not die from the crit.
The target needs to not be immune to mind-affecting.
The target needs to fail the save.
The confusion needs to come up with a result that the target wouldn't be doing anyway. (I'm assuming that the creature isn't considered confused until after the attack confusing it is complete, otherwise it will automatically attack the bloodrager.)
A swift action ability with uses per day would actually be more useful.
Also the bonus spells are a problem. A Fey bloodrager will get use out of Entangle at character level 7, true, and there's synergy with their ability to move thru difficult terrain and Blood Sanctuary.
However Hideous Laughter at 10th, Deep Slumber at 13th and Poison at 16th aren't useful spells. Buffs or more weird druidic spells would work better.
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The Fey bloodline still has a more-or-less useless level 1 ability, at that level at least. You need all of these to be true to have an effect:
You need to be in a bloodrage
You need to make a crit threat, hit and confirm the hit.
The target needs to not die from the crit.
The target needs to not be immune to mind-affecting.
The target needs to fail the save.
The confusion needs to come up with a result that the target wouldn't be doing anyway. (I'm assuming that the creature isn't considered confused until after the attack confusing it is complete, otherwise it will automatically attack the bloodrager.)A swift action ability with uses per day would actually be more useful.
I believe automatically attacking the BR is the point of the ability.
And "The target needs to not die from the crit" is not a legimate criteria.
"The target needs to fail the save" that kinda only applies to 99% of all abilities.
If you have say a level 1 bloodrager who does 2d10+18 damage on a crit while in a bloodrage, you will not often get any usage out of an debuff which only triggers on a crit because people you crit tend to go down anyway. That is the point of that condition.
An ability which forces big, tough monsters whom you crit to attack you is not useful. Casters maybe, but not big, tough monsters.
Dot
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If you have say a level 1 bloodrager who does 2d10+18 damage on a crit while in a bloodrage, you will not often get any usage out of an debuff which only triggers on a crit because people you crit tend to go down anyway. That is the point of that condition.
An ability which forces big, tough monsters whom you crit to attack you is not useful. Casters maybe, but not big, tough monsters.
Being dead and no longer a threat is one of the best debuffs I can think of.
And making big tough monsters attack the big tough Bloodrager instead of the Rogue or the Wizard is very useful in my opinion.
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I was just thinking to myself the other day, and I thought, "Self you know what the bloodrager needs? It needs to be a barbarian without rage powers that gains the ability to self buff as soon as it enters rage -- yeah this is what the bloodrager needs."
Honestly I was expecting some minor tweaks and thought that was all that was needed... something to bring it more in line with a rageful angry butt kicker of doom.
Instead we get a barbarian that buffs itself.
I mean really? How utterly disappointing and mundane.
Oh, a bonus on spells my friends cast, neat but functionally useless since I can't actually DODGE THE SPELL COMPLETELY even with that bonus -- how about instead he get evasion verses spells from friendly sources if that's the idea?
So to recap no actual improvement on casting -- plus a bunch of damage dealing spells == self buffing barbarian archetype.
I have to say this is one of the few times I have been really disappointed in Paizo.
I thought we were going to get a really interesting 4 level full 20 BAB class that could turn things on its head.
Being dead is a very good debuff, but you don't get any advantage in confusing the dead. The ability is to confuse. The ability triggers on a crit but it does not cause the crit. See my point yet?
IME big tough monsters you've just dealt a crit to attack you, not the wizard in the corner. The rogue who's about to deliver a flanking attack, yeah maybe - if you had any control on when the ability triggered it would be useful for that.
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Being dead is a very good debuff, but you don't get any advantage in confusing the dead. The ability is to confuse. The ability triggers on a crit but it does not cause the crit. See my point yet?
IME big tough monsters you've just dealt a crit to attack you, not the wizard in the corner. The rogue who's about to deliver a flanking attack, yeah maybe - if you had any control on when the ability triggered it would be useful for that.
Um no not really, even more confused now actually.
True, but there's more to monsters than just "Smash nearest target" so by having a fallback of no matter what your fighting having it attack you instead of others is a boon in my opinion.
OK, try it this way. Could you please explain the usefulness of applying the confused condition to a dead target?