Stats go something like 26 str ...
attack of +20 comes from +8BAB, 10 STR, 1 feat and 1 amulet.
Nitpick here: 26 Str -> 8 mod, not 10
So, he is at -2 BAB from what you thought.
/cevah
Sorry, maybe i went in the wrong game, it just seems silly that chars can be strong as gods or weak like the most puny cobolds only because somebody had hours over hours to spend looking through the manuals.
It seems odd to you that the person with more knowledge of the game can make a better character/be better at it than people with no knowledge of it?
Can I be the first to welcome you to gaming, since it seems like you're new to it? Of any kind. Video, tabletop, or otherwise.
Even Chess. Spend hours looking at GrandMaster's games, opening etc, and you'll be a FAR better player than without those.
At this level you need at least a +3 weapon (+1 and +2 for holy) made of cold iron or silver. Maybe you have the cold iron or the silver one, probably not and sure not both of them. Or you have the adamantine.Right now, my war has 2 +2 swords.
The Fighter can just carry non-magical Cold Iron Weapons he bought for a few hundred gold pieces as secondary equipment. In two levels he can also get the Penetrating Strike Feat.
However the Summoner can also overcome most DR by Greater Evolution Surge, giving himself DR/alignment overcoming one of the hardest DRs. With
Faith and Purity he could even add Smite with a lower Evolution Surge and say goodbye to all DR.
I ALSO BELIEVE THE PROBLEM CAN BE RESOLVED BY ENCOUNTER DESIGN even without focussing the Synthesist by only attacking his weaknesses. The encounters have to be designed form the base. Don't design the bad guys to screw over the Summoner. Design the environment to protect the villain(s). And design the Villans with a strategy. There was a low-level encounter in an old D&D-Encounter book, which I loved. It featured a Bugbear in a room with a pit. The Bugbear started out hidden and when the heroes came in, he would bullrush one of them into the pit.
One of the best ways here are the already mentioned Illusions. One can really irritate a group this way. Greater Invisibilty is a Classic and likely needs the Cleric to get rid of it.
Mirage Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirage-arcana) is an awesome spell, that allows the villain to create an entire preplanned Illusory dungeon out of nowwhere. With a premade floorplan you can have the PCs illusory Prison cells spawn around the characters, whil the villain is suddenly hidden behind a labyrinth of illusory walls, while using True seeing to attack the PCs.
If you wanna be really mean you can also add http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/shadow-grasp-metamagic Shadow Grasp, to bind them to the ground with the Shadows. Then punch them with Shadow Gambit http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shadow-gambit. Being really bound to the ground and with with real damage by the environment, they won't take much damage, since Shadow Gambits damage sucks, but they will also hjave to work hard to get the villain.
Also CONTINGENCY IS YOUR BEST FRIEND! Every enemy should have a few contingency spells active to make them survive.
When attacked/down to X HP --> teleport away/Heal. Someone Charges you --> automatic Repulsion Spell etc.
Tactis like the Repulsion Spell still allow the PCs to act(unlike the Dominate Person), but they need to find a different way to attack(like Ranged Weapons).
Sadly encounters like this need lots of time and a basic idea. If it's just mooks just let the Eidolon rip it's way through them. Make them weak, and have them the rest of the group can also beat them up rather easy and feel powerful too.
If however you still feel overpowered by the Eidolon or are more into straightforward combat, I can understand if you just want to ban the character.
I'd also talk to the player, before making such a decision. How much is he into this character? Does he like him very much? If yes maybe just rebuild the Eidolon. Maybe he already wants to try another class? Perfect have him make a new character.
26 str +4 from belt = 30Stats go something like 26 str ...
attack of +20 comes from +8BAB, 10 STR, 1 feat and 1 amulet.
Nitpick here: 26 Str -> 8 mod, not 10
So, he is at -2 BAB from what you thought.
/cevah
Adding his parenthetical text, he said:
Stats go something like 26 str (16 base, 20 with free boost, 24 evos, 26 level and 30 with belt)
His detailed text does not add up to 26. But he said the strength was 26. I went with the main text, not the detailed summary.
/cevah
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I think you realy need to audit his sheet closely and read the rules on eidilons, natural attacks, his archetype, etc. very closely. If his sheet is correct, you do have a right to complain. That kind of AC and damage at level 10 should not be. Post a copy of the sheet or just type it. Otherwise, we need to have a petition to nerf this arhcetype. Maybe you should just ask him to play a normal summoner or a barbarian. Even bloodrage would work.
Just make more challenging encounters and if the Monk is left behind ramp him up with a cool template. I gave a PC a template called shadowlord or some such from 3.0 I believe. It gave dr and shadow jumping and shadow blending and spell casting and stat bumps. But you could even just make something cool up to help out the monk. Then everyone is on the same playing field. Discover a mysterious tenple or artifact gain mysterious powers cool hook or adventure down the road when unforeseen consequences are revealed.
My group has been trying to tackle summoners for a while and one of the biggest house rules that we use is that special attacks, like poison, rake, and energy attacks, count against the maximum number of attacks. I know this "cripples the eidolon" according to our groups minmaxer but it makes a lot of sense and reigns in some of the power.
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Sorry if I repeat. Not reading 5 pages.
At level 10, it's reasonable to run against casters that have banishment, dispel and the like available. Use them.
I did see others already called out bonus types not stacking. This is important.
Just as much as buffs help the party, debuffs equally hurt. Use them. You can whittle down someone pretty low with multiple -1/-2 effects.
I saw the target touch AC suggestion with negative levels. This is evil. Definitely use it.
I know you said you audited his evolution spend but take another look. Really scrutinize the wordings of those abilities. Just because they have the same name as most monster abilities, only a few work the same way. The rest (read: most) have odd quirks that are meant to balance them out.
I saw someone mentioned affecting the eidolon but not the synth with something. This is impossible per the rules. They are a single creature. You can't split hairs like this. Put this out of your mind. An effect on the one is an effect on the other but this isn't even accurate. It's a single creature with a single effect.
That's about it.
OP, why not try my earlier suggestion? :But the solution is easy "Bob, I know you're having fun playing your PC, but he's way out of line power-wise with the other three PC's. In order to challenge your PC, the other PC's either will die or be mostly useless. If i build the challenge for them, you'r PC will walk all over it. So, this is getting to be Not Fun for me and the other three. So, bring in a new PC, OK? Thanks, I know you'd understand."
OP, why not try my earlier suggestion? :But the solution is easy "Bob, I know you're having fun playing your PC, but he's way out of line power-wise with the other three PC's. In order to challenge your PC, the other PC's either will die or be mostly useless. If i build the challenge for them, you'r PC will walk all over it. So, this is getting to be Not Fun for me and the other three. So, bring in a new PC, OK? Thanks, I know you'd understand."
He should make a proper challenge and if the other players die they can make better characters. It really suck to hold back. It makes it so when your player you keep thinking about what you should be able to do and that breeds resentment.
When one player is hyper-optimized and the other three don’t care for that play style, then the singleton has to bend to the majority.
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My group has been trying to tackle summoners for a while and one of the biggest house rules that we use is that special attacks, like poison, rake, and energy attacks, count against the maximum number of attacks. I know this "cripples the eidolon" according to our groups minmaxer but it makes a lot of sense and reigns in some of the power.As long as you do the same with a warriors energy weapons sure that works...
Or you can actually work with a summoner and come up with something fair.
Sure. Everyone knows a flaming weapon you swing up to twice per round is gamebreaking and should be nerfed as hard as the one using it 4/5 times per round before the haste at the same level.
We are silly for suggesting such a nerf and not applying it to the most OP classes of all times, aka melee combatants with elemental weapons.
But singletons are always in-scope. *snicker*
You don't have to try to force someone to bend, which, btw, can really sour the whole dynamic if it is otherwise fine. But, it takes a certain finesse to handle both types at the same time. If the GM is the only one going "wtf" then it's fine, really, as long as the build is legal.
Would you call for a highly optimized PFS character to be scrubbed just because he's playing with generalists? That may be different from the more voluntary non-PFS campaign, but even in the pace of play there are stronger monsters of the same CR and weaker ones.
I would say having outliers is part of the system even when an outlier is a PC.
Sure. Everyone knows a flaming weapon you swing up to twice per round is gamebreaking and should be nerfed as hard as the one using it 4/5 times per round before the haste at the same level.
We are silly for suggesting such a nerf and not applying it to the most OP classes of all times, aka melee combatants with elemental weapons.
I don't understand. Did someone suggest haste works with natural attacks? (It doesn't.)
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Yes it does actually : "When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.".
I brought Haste in because Titania suggested that the synthesist's elemental attacks shouldn't be nerfed if all other characters using elemental attacks aren't.
To which I replied that the same level optimized synthesist typically hits twice as often, and the weapon enhancement actually sucks for everyone else, so no, because the evolution takes a nerfhammer doesn't mean every other poor sap already sacrificing efficiency for style should be screwed.
That's like wondering "oh damn, this character triple wielding keen falchions hits hard" then answering "let's ban all falchions for everyone instead of making it so that this specific class build actually cannot triple-wield them".
So it does. My mistake.
Directed, arbitrary changes against a PC's character don't really buy you anything than confused looks and a kind of subtle resentment. They should make sense within the larger realm of the rules overall.
To say a 3-handed creature can't wield 3 weapons doesn't make sense. You should explore other options such as a deformity or something. Make it roleplayable and make it make sense within the world overall. This leaves options open and can potentially even be a boon in some other, inventive way. Outright nerfs or bans to small facets are rarely ever actually necessary.
This thread, with all the rules argle-bargle is a perfect example why the Synthesist should be banned. over 100 posts of "well the rules work like this! "No, they dont a natural attack is..." "well, yeah but multi-attack does...."
The Synthesist is, beyond a doubt, the most broken class in PF (that doesn't mean it's the most powerful, mind you, but...)
It's not broken. It's actually put together okay but it does require a depth of rules knowledge and an attention to ability wordings that the other classes don't need.
For the other classes you need to really pay attention to few things from level 1 to 20 not counting spells, just class abilities. Synthesists require you to pay close attention to potentially a dozen or so things at all times during play and almost as soon as level 9, when you get a full dozen EPs.
It simply caters to a different play style. It's definitely not for everyone. I would say this potentially makes it a good candidate for removal altogether because it is fundamentally different. But, I don't think it's broken.
The eidolon has weaknesses built in for balance reasons.
It doesn't make a person a bad DM to exploit them.
This thread, with all the rules argle-bargle is a perfect example why the Synthesist should be banned. over 100 posts of "well the rules work like this! "No, they dont a natural attack is..." "well, yeah but multi-attack does...."
Hey, the Natural Attack rules are pretty darn clear. Just because a bunch of people keep saying they work like they don't work or don't work like they actually do doesn't mean the Synthesist should be banned.
No, the Synthesist should be banned because the Eidolon rules are a jumbled mess of argle-bargle with things that should work one way but have typos or key phrases missing that breaks the whole thing (By RAW, Eidolons can Rend more than once a round, for example. Definitely not RAI due to dev quotes and common sense, but still.).
It's really simple, a synthesist summoner is not a game breaker, but he certainly is a GAME CHANGER
first up are his true strengths
His high caps on damage and defense
his versatile range
His redistributed wealth (It's a lot easier to become a beast when you can't buy armor)
what is he really weak against?
Dispells and debuffs.
the whole thing about summoners are that they exist within the buff, take them from the buff and they've got nothing left but minions and purely offensive magic (Which i'll bet they can't optimize)
Now look at this from an enemy's perspective "Stabbing it aint gonna work, maybe i should WEAKEN IT somehow here i'll call my necromancer buddy and he'll back me up... he can even bring his skeletal horde along for fun"
How about ability damage? Specifically wisdom damage will do the trick. His will save isn't going to be crap but it will invariably be the hole in his gate.
Make him succumb to madness, it's easy and not an uncommon tactic in the game.
evil party attacks?
Well a shadow dancer will mirror the monk in a lot of aesthetics (Light armored combat guy) but will bring his shade to the fight to really take things up a peg
A flat necromancer cleric (Archetype) will mirror the heal cleric.
As for the fighter? how about something a just as martial and dangerous. specifically a heavily armored magus (Think something like three phalanx soldier fighter, and seven black blade skirnir magus with some arcane failure reduction and a ripsaw glaive) and finally i offer you the enemy of your summoner, cavalier/antipali and hippogryph rider ranger 4
He'll charge in there from the air, and will flyby attack your synthesist upon a beastly creature
this party will have four dangerous foes along with three dangerous pets. these guys can bring along with them a lot of minions (Particularly skeletons), have a lot of magical capability, and can really dish out the scary.
The kicker? you want the players to lose. wake them up with something strange occuring. like the enemy party forcing them to fight a greater foe, but have the synthesist go mad.
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The kicker? you want the players to lose. wake them up with something strange...
This statement is a severe misunderstanding of a GM's role. A good GM never wants the players to lose. Quite frankly it's easy to defeat players as the GM. A good GM poses challenges and keeps players on their toes with the intention they succeed. A fantastic climax for an adventure has the players barely scraping their way to victory. But they still achieve victory.
The synthesist and summoner should be banned for a variety of reason. We don't need to argue its brokenness since this has been debated since the class was first released and constantly proven. Seriously sit down at a table with a summoner who actually used his EP correctly and you will see how broken it is. It was depressing when the devs released the synth since it allowed something they repeatedly avoided in PF which is stat dumping where an ability would replace your own. They modified every spell and ability from beast shape to wild shape to not allow stat dumping. Then what happens? They release a broken class that was not needed (Conjurers were pathfinder's summoners) followed by a broken archetype.
The outdamaging part I'm skeptical on. I believe the eidolon and/or the alchemist are the current kings of DPR. All those attacks and monster stats to go with them add up.
The eidolon is hard to kill. The reason the summoner has such a massive Con score is so he can give his HP to the eidolon, and when it goes away, his con 'bounces back' to its proper level, meaning he'll still be alive.
Having to rely on spellcasters to get rid of a PC is hard to do. Most monsters are melee monsters in one form or another, and this PC is effectively thrashing all the melee monsters.
Having to resort to special tactics to take down one character is muchly unfun and feels like targeted attacks to a DM. Not that they can't do it, the DM will always win if they want to, but still.
One of the best ways to determine just how broken the class is is to use one against the party. NPC casters are great because their power, like the PC's, comes from cast spells, not from items, unlike melee sorts. The Summoner is no exception.
Take and build a synthesis of your own and use them against the party with some support. See how they take it.
==Aelryinth
Sure. Everyone knows a flaming weapon you swing up to twice per round is gamebreaking and should be nerfed as hard as the one using it 4/5 times per round before the haste at the same level.
We are silly for suggesting such a nerf and not applying it to the most OP classes of all times, aka melee combatants with elemental weapons.
At almost every level you can find enemies that have resist 5 of the element the eidolon is using.
It isn't hard. It also isn't hard for there to be a lot of native outsiders who want the party dead, or for a monster/opposed character to just drink a potion that grants resistance.*pokes Maxximilius's head*
Use your brain when you DM or your players will always walk all over you. If they have a super-stacked fire-wizard of epic doom then throw lots of enemies that are resistant to fire but not enough so to negate the wizard, while never sending fire immune monsters at them.
Its like DR but VS elements, and when enemies have DR the people who can just cut through it are the ones who shine.
For optimal shining, aside from going to the Overlook Hotel, a party can reliably run into a group of enemies that enable all of them to optimally shine, but this isn't required.
If your PCs are willing to put in the work to make characters and show up, then you should be willing to put in the work to give them a good time. As we all know PCs LOVE being able to show off their strengths, while also having their weaknesses challenged.
Everyone always says "This class is OP" but never has the party in a position where an enemy is attacking them from max range and they have to close the distance. Some classes (melee classes, also the summoner) thrive in close quarters, while the offensive arcane casting classes thrive at long distance since their long ranged kill everything spells with a range of 400+40/lvl are their best assets in many cases.
Also, remember that when someone is pinned they cannot defend themselves offensively save for with very specific items.
Creativity and cunning defeats mechanics. If you cannot defeat the party legitimately as the DM then you are DMing wrong, since defeating them should be overwhelmingly easy. However, "winning" isn't your goal as the DM, but instead your PCs overcoming challenges and progressing the story is your goal.
Remember: It is extremely easy to suck as a DM, since you have to walk a blade's edge to do it well. Finding your own personal style of DMing is also difficult for many, but once you do it is all good from then on.
When I played a synthesist, the one thing I cared about was keeping my party safe, and being a meat shield. Sure, I was powerful, but I felt vulnerable. So maybe focusing on the numbers game of HP and ac isn't the way to go?
And if you make things too dangerous, of course the synthesist isn't going to back down, and he's going to push his way to the front so his allies don't need to. Speaking for myself, the only time I shown was when I had to--when the party was too weak and vulnerable, and when we couldn't use smart tactics. And in those instances we were glad to survive, but some people in party *still* saw me as the weak little gnome that had to be protected and kept out of trouble. So I really don't buy into this 'characters need to be balanced' thing.
Given the opportunity, I opted to do different things in different circumstances. There was a segment in a narrow passage way when I stayed in the back row, spamming my summon ability to create feint partners for the front row. The synthesist is versatile enough that he can step back if he wants to. Let him.
Basically, the synthesist has the ability to be two people: Bruce Banner and the Hulk. Don't focus on beating the Hulk, but on giving Bruce good reasons to come out. Win win.
don't forget Devolution spell it's only a 3rd level.
Sure it's a rare and specific anti-summoner spell but if their enemies know what they are up against having a spell to downpower the Eidolon is perfectly reasonable.
and never underestimate illusion spells
EX: Veil - everyone in the party now looks like the evil wizard you are in combat with. Feel free to pick whichever target you want.
Maybe some approaches of 'how to deal with big opponents' using little ones? Nasty small sized things with better flight abilities? Ghosts? Swarms?
Fact is classes like Syn Summoner and Magus are completed OPed and ruin encounters. I have no idea why the creators allowed them in. Ive read countless posts about a magus just completely railroading encounters. Makes playing any other kind of straight damage dealing class useless.
Syn is no better. 40 Ac at lv 10 is silly. And add to that a truckload of damage? I can see a big burly warrior all shieldwalled out but his damage would suck. In this case, the Syn has both great ac and great damage.
Its not a fun game when one character steals to show. It is no fun playing clean up or 2nd/3rd fiddle to a character.
Clearly the player knew this going in. I blame him 100%. As a DM, sure you should know the ins and outs but Ive been there where Im just trying to get the game going and get shortsided only to regret later on non censoring something. We all do it.
Punt the character and CLOSELY watch the player on what he makes next.
If not, say goodbye to your game.
If AC 40 by level 10 is silly, how silly is 28 AC at level 6?
I'm sorry Mr Black, but its possible to build a monk with a touch AC nearly that high and compete with the summoner in damage. The fact is, any class can be so optimized it blows others out of the water. The summoner has very obvious ways of doing it.
Not at level 10.
Im fine with acs of 40 but level 10? Thats crazy. The wealth by level guideline is 62,000 gp for level 10. Please explain how a monk can have a 40 touch ac at lv 10 with 62k gold? For that matter, explain how any class short of a walking wall that does little damage can have a 40 ac at lv 10.
I don't agreee with the HP blob theory. He is an HP blob, with attacks as strong as a fighter or barbarian, with armor higher than both, with in built immunity to element for just 2 evo poits, in...[ . . . ]Synthesist characters are hugely disruptive to the game because they can be great at all things, especially with a 25 pt buy. You build the summoner for skills, buffing and healing; build the eidolon for combat and always wear it. I have yet to see one in a game where it didn't cause other players to feel worthless. It's by that measure that people keep suggesting you ask him to roll a new character.[ . . . ]I always disagree with telling someone to roll another character because "it is too powerful."
So, to not go with the bandwagon of "Give up as a DM" I'll offer even MORE.
ILLUSIONS.My favorite spells as the DM are illusions. Most of them do not give a save unless you interact with them. Now, here is a very important aspect: if you cast something like Still Image, and spend your standard concentrating on it then if the PC attacks it then they get a will save to disbelieve, if they fail then they attack again next round and get another save to disbelieve, and this continues until they succeed.
A Gnomish Illusionist with the feat that lowers the concentration tax to a swift allows a gnomish character to maintain the illusion as a swift so he can use his standard to do all manner of things such as cast spells.
The tools to deal with the summoner are there. For a direct approach use a true-dragon that breathes an element, and have it focus on the summoner with its breath weapon--it can spam it every round--so the damage is constant each round.
The point is to not give up as a DM. You don't need to include more powerful enemies, you just need to include the right enemies in the right environments to defeat the synthesist, and at the end of the day the Synthesist is really just a dangerous blob of hit points, and little else.
I agree completely with you. The synthesist is too good it beats the martialsk in there own game and ia a great caster on top.
I suggest you ask your friend to make another character.Even the normal summoner with action economy ++ and all is Easter because he have weaknesses that the synt. Dosent have.
So do away with the synt and consider boosting the monk a bit.
Consider letting the synt reroll as a wizard it is also overpowered but he wont be stealing the figther and the monks limeligth.
And good luck
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For that matter, explain how any class short of a walking wall that does little damage can have a 40 ac at lv 10.
10 + 5 (+3 Light bashing shield w/Shield Focus) + 13 (+4 Full plate w/Defender of the Society trait) + 2 (natural AC amulet) + 2 (Deflection ring) + 3 (Dexterity).
= 35/15/32 AC.
Up to 38/15/35 with a +4 Heavy shield.
Add in fighting defensively for +3 to AC, up to +6 with a Halfling (small sized + racial feat) :
= 38/18/32 AC. (41/21/33 halfling)
Up to 41/18/35 (44/24/36 halfling) with a +4 Heavy shield.
"Short of a walking wall that does little damage"
Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain
Dex 18 (base) + 2 (level) + 2 (race, pick one) + 4 (item) = 26 (+8)
Wis 14 (base) + 4 (item) = 18 (+4)
AC Bonus = +2
Ki = +4
Dodge feat = +1
Iron Monk = +1
Iron Limb Defense = +2
Flowing Dodge = +1 for each adjacent enemy, let's say min 1
33 AC with 2 items, class features and a feat. Continuing...
Bracers of Armor +4
Ring of Protection +2
39 AC with protective magic items. Splurging a little and getting +6 bracers puts him at 41.
Add midcombat buff spells here for around 46-50 total.
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"Short of a walking wall that does little damage"
You'd be surprised how damage can stack nicely when you TWF with a fighter, especially when you get to 11th level and spam Bashing Finish with your main 15-20 scimitar.
Before then, just pick a quick draw shield and TH your main/draw shield/shield bash/TH your main/draw shield/shield bash.Or hey, if you want a high AC monk, try a snapping turtle Tetori : a 20 Wis/16 Dex grants you 10 + 5(wis) + 3(Dex) + 3(monk with robe) + 4(bracers of armor) + 4(barkskin) + 2(deflection) + 2(shield) + 4(with a Ki point) = 37/25/22 AC.
Armor Master Fighter
Dex 14 (base) + 2 (item) = 16 (+3 with Armor Training)
Deflective Shield +3 touch
+3 Full Plate +12
+3 Heavy Steel Shield +5
33 AC with core, "fighter" items.
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
36 AC
Because we're a smart fighter, we fight defensively often +2 (this is available to ALL characters, even the monk build I threw up)
38 AC
Again, midcombat buffs pushes this potentially into the high 40s