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tryhardGM wrote:

Stats go something like 26 str ...

attack of +20 comes from +8BAB, 10 STR, 1 feat and 1 amulet.

Nitpick here: 26 Str -> 8 mod, not 10

So, he is at -2 BAB from what you thought.

/cevah

26 str +4 from belt = 30

"the rules wrote:

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.

Bonus HP and Fort saves are both based on Con. When he wears his Eidolon, his Con changes to 12. Thus, his hp will go down (as will his Fort save). And then he gets the Eidolon's HP as temp hit points that are difficult to restore.

Which base form is his Eidolon? I'm trying to check his evolution points, and noticed that they all start at 13 Con so his being 12 is hinky.

probably con is 13, i maybe wrong about one or two stat points.

This way he will have to drop teh 4 points increase for str and get big. i think he will end up having even more str and HPs than before.

tryhardGM wrote:

ZanThrax wrote:

tryhardGM wrote:

Guys, speaking about the healing thing, he gets to transfer damage done to eidolon on 1on1 basis to the pc, so that silly thing about temp HP is useless.

He can't give his real hit points to the eidolon until / unless the Eidolon would be dropped to zero (or less) hit points. So if he takes enough damage during a fight, he can sacrifice his real hit points to keep the Eidolon around and actually benefit from healing magic and channels. Outside of a fight the only way to heal the Eidolon is with rejuvenate spells.

That's what he does, and in fact is like having a ton temporary HPs that can be healed separately and his own ton of HPs, that is why he has that high con score. He has high enough con and D8 for the HPs thast he is tougher than the tha cleric on his own.

His Con score doesn't matter. When he's wearing the Eidolon, his bonus HP are based on the Eidolon's Con as it replaces his own.

Are you sure of this? it says that the eidolon HPs are added to his own as temporary, his HPs are not replaced.

Maybe i am wrong, but it looks odd that he loses HP when wearing the eidolon.

Eidolon gets his own stats increase from his own table. Eidolon has 8th HDs so he gets +1 and +1, summoner does the same.

tryhardGM wrote:

Sure i can start dropping on him giants wielding outsider bane weapons, backed up by a caster or two using banishment, devolution and something else. in an ambush.

But that would be, as people said, creating encounters just for him. To target his weakness (many of them can be covered with evo surge, and he is not even large sized all stats i posted are for medium size) and i don't like a game that forces me to do something like this.

But the game is about the characters, why shouldn't the encounters be? And they don't have to ALL be. Just once in awhile to make the others not feel outclased, to make him feel pressed, basically help him justify his decision. And a spellcaster with the spells I mentioned will also have other spells. So it doesn't have to be all about the synthesist.

I agree with you on the Summoner=Summoner by the way. I'd run it the same way as well.

On a side note, teh group would make tons of cash from the bane weapons by selling them O.O

So what throw a monster with 15 DR that the summoner can't beat and the fighter can and I bet the fighter will be out damaging the summoner. The fighter does have a +2 weapon at least right?

The point is to give the characters a chance to shine. (expect the monk don't know what you can do for him)

Most DR 15 monsters have near impossible wepon requisites such as good and cold iron, good and silver, adamantine.

At this level you need at least a +3 weapon (+1 and +2 for holy) made of cold iron or silver. Maybe you have the cold iron or the silver one, probably not and sure not both of them. Or you have the adamantine.

Right now, my war has 2 +2 swords.

I have a suggestion. There is a downside to natural attacks as opposed to weapon attack mainly DR. Other melee charters can just pick up a silver or cold iron or magic weapon however the summoner has only natural attacks. Frankly I don't see how this has not come up yet monsters with DR magic are very common.

power attack 3 lets him do high damage with +19 on almost all attacks thanks to heroism. If he is hasted is all hell breaks loose. If he uses (and almost never does) evo surge greater to grow large damage becomes abnormal.

Damage gets to +17 just for power attack, when large sized he is something like +21 throw in rend and it's even worse. By now he should have had an amulet +2, but he has a lot less wealth than a level 10 character gets.

Give him his full WBL and only DR 15 monster can really hold up to him.

Anything he can't really damage he can always tank, use -3 to hit get +3 AC, good luck hitting.

Only spells and touch attacks are of any use.

Absolutely nothing wrong with Synthesist. It's effective but far from over-powered.

In this case touch attacks can be awesome, the touch AC is for garbage. Go for sonic or force damage, no immunity to those bad boys. You also have some nice anti-Eidolon spells that strip evolution points. You also have the basics like Dispel Magic or Banishment.

The eidolon is an outsider and has an alignment, Circle of Protection from Appropriate helps there. Bane Outsider weapons of the appropriate type amp the damage level.

Size large can be nice, but isn't always helpful depending on the terrain they're fighting in.

You also have complete control of battle circumstances. Does the synthesist always have his eidolon on? That would be odd and there could be some strong roleplaying negatives to that. If not, ambushes can do some serious damage before any buffing can occur.

Does the group have a reputation? Reputations are awesome. The group can be treated like the heroes that they are. And their enemies know exactly what they're in for during a fight, and can be prepared for it.

Sure i can start dropping on him giants wielding outsider bane weapons, backed up by a caster or two using banishment, devolution and something else. in an ambush.

But that would be, as people said, creating encounters just for him. To target his weakness (many of them can be covered with evo surge, and he is not even large sized all stats i posted are for medium size) and i don't like a game that forces me to do something like this.

@Kimera the feat "improved evolution" says you must have the eidolon class feature, he gets fused eidolon and for me it's the same thing, an eidolon is an eidolon and a summoner is a summone, archetype is not a different class.

Sorry, he dropped the improved damage evos for bite and claws last time i checked to take rend.

The rest of us aren't sure. There might be more honest errors. It's complicated. I don't know if any one of us could spot all the errors, but that's what crowd-sourcing is for.

As far as i remember eidolon evos are (he has 16 evo points thanks to improved evolution, i let him take that because it looked awkward that a synth couldn't take the only summoneresque good feat)

4 points for +4 strenght; 2 points for +2 dex; 2 for +4 nat armor; 1 for extra claws; 1 for improved claws (1d6); 2 for imm. fire; 3 for damage reduction; 1 for improved bite (1d8).

Stats go something like 26 str (16 base, 20 with free boost, 24 evos, 26 level and 30 with belt), dex 18 (12 base, 4 free, 2 evos) cos 12.

Eidolon HPs around 60

attack of +20 comes from +8BAB, 10 STR, 1 feat and 1 amulet. Heroism last almost 2 hours so it's usually up, bringing it to +22.

14 nat armor comes from base 2, 8 free, 4 evos. Stacks with barkskin.

We keep asking to see the character sheet and haven't seen it. Do you have it? Could you scan it and post it?

Don't have it right now, but i'm sure everything is all right. We forgot about the bull's sternght stacking with belts, but everything else is legit.

tryhardGM wrote:

Guys, speaking about the healing thing, he gets to transfer damage done to eidolon on 1on1 basis to the pc, so that silly thing about temp HP is useless.

He can't give his real hit points to the eidolon until / unless the Eidolon would be dropped to zero (or less) hit points. So if he takes enough damage during a fight, he can sacrifice his real hit points to keep the Eidolon around and actually benefit from healing magic and channels. Outside of a fight the only way to heal the Eidolon is with rejuvenate spells.

That's what he does, and in fact is like having a ton temporary HPs that can be healed separately and his own ton of HPs, that is why he has that high con score. He has high enough con and D8 for the HPs thast he is tougher than the tha cleric on his own.

Guys, speaking about the healing thing, he gets to transfer damage done to eidolon on 1on1 basis to the pc, so that silly thing about temp HP is useless.

The eidolon can be worn for over 24 hours, you just have to skip a night of rest, and it's done for feats and such.

As far as i see it, it's broken. Also, all of his nat. attacks are listed as primary.

He gets to enjoy his gear, it's written on the summuoer, he just can't use the armor thanks to a FAQ, but the belt still applies.

It's utterly broken, adn disrespectful for melee classes. He is as strong as them, harder than them, and much more versatile. Having a class the needs to banned means bad work by the devs, and having to blow my head up to make a single satisfying encounter seems really bad.

Also, asking the others to optimize is ridicoulous, everyone should play teh class he likes and be good. Not everybody has the time to look on manual after manual just to find the best "combo" tu build a powerful char.

Sorry, maybe i went in the wrong game, it just seems silly that chars can be strong as gods or weak like the most puny cobolds only because somebody had hours over hours to spend looking through the manuals.

I'm going to come at this from a different angle:

You might try starting a new game, from first level, with only base character classes until your group gets a better handle on the rules. I'm saying this because at 10th level, no one in your group seems to know which magic items and spells can stack together, and that kind of mistake will completely break the game. It will be especially frustrating to you as the GM because the monsters and NPCs are designed assuming that the players are following those kinds of rules.

Another example of why I make this suggestion:

Quote:

His feats include something to get -1 attack/+1 AC, power attack for low armor monsters

The "something" sounds like Combat Expertise, which requires a 13 Intelligence and scales up as your BAB increases (for a summoner, it should be -2/+2 at 10th level, -3/+3 at 11th). Power Attack requires a 13 Strength, and it scales the same way that Combat Expertise does (-2/+4 at 10, -3/+6 at 11).

With the stats you posted for the summoner, he can't take either of these feats. Did he take Power Attack on his eidolon? How high does an eidolon's Intelligence need to be to take feats? Does a synthesist's eidolon even get feats? (The synthesist summoner is a brain-meltingly complicated archetype. I don't even understand it well enough to decide whether I think it's broken.)

Also, both Combat Expertise and Power Attack are "on or off" in Pathfinder. Once he hits BAB 4, your summoner can't take a smaller penalty in exchange for the smaller benefit: it's always -2/+2. If your synthesist is using both Combat Expertise and Power Attack on the same round, he's taking a net -4 to hit.

-------------
Back to your original question:

For the AC issue, as others have pointed out, you get around this by targeting touch AC and catching him flatfooted.

Quote:

AC 40 (10 +3 dex, +2 deflection, +4 mage armor, +14 natural, +4 barkskin, +1 dodge, +2 shield)

His touch AC is only 16 (18, depending on the source of the shield bonus)....

sorry, int is 13, and yes he can use the eidolon strenght to qualify for power attack (keeping the suit for 24 hours).

The eidolon has no feats of his own, he uses the ones of the summoner.

The shield bonus comes from his class, normal summoner gets it from being close to the eidolon he gets hit when is suited up.

They all have their WBL except him, some of them have more partially because he gave up something along the way.

They saved for that handy rod of quickening, that was smart. it is really useful.

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

So let me get this straight:

We have:
1 highly optimized and effective character.
3 poorly optimized and ineffective characters.

Are we supposed to be surprised that the optimized character is outshining them? Hell no, why would we be?

No it is:

1 optimized and effective character using a broken class
3 poorly optimized and ineffective characters using CRB classes.

Yes, the player with the optimized character will always shine, just not to the unbalancing degree that an optimized synth can.

Suggestions of dominance, level drain, ect. are not helpful. Specifically targeting a player in encounters is terrible DMing and will quickly make the player unhappy. I have been in this situation before.

Instead talk to the player, lay out how his character is broken, point out it's banned from organized play, and let him rebuild his character from the ground up. If desired develope a creative solution about why the player is leaving the group and heck possibly even pit the new party against the old PC.

Well an encounter or two in an entire adventure could be tailored on him (maybe the bad guys know who they are and they are at least a bit ready) but not all the encounters can go that way.

The fact that paizo releases a class clearly broken, makes a ton of FAQs about it and then bans it from the organized play makes me think. They should have released a fix, remaking the entire class/archetype saying "hey, here is the new summoner, now melee guys won't suck while a caster does the melee for them".

And instead, they just ban it.

All the other characters have their WBL, some like the monk have even more.

@Mathwei nice suggestion. in fact the fight with the enemy adventure group will give them an headache. They will use spells such as necromancy, banishment, debuffing and self buffs. They will have a slayer (the new beta class), a wizzy, a cleric and a fighter.

On my monk I was going by memory so some details are fuzzy. I think it was closer to 26to28 self buffing to 32. 3 dex 3 wis 4 armor 2 def 2 nat 1 dodge. That comes to 25. I'm sure there was something more but it was a year ago.

He didn't have an amulet of fists? The 2 natural armor seems strange.

kaisc006 wrote:

Taku Ooka Nin wrote:

The difference between PFS and Pathfinder is that the DM can actually create content that is hand tailored to deal with classes

Hand tailoring an encounter to nerf a character is poor dming and easy to do. Hand tailoring an encounter so each character can shine is good dming and often difficult to do. When incorporating an OP class like summoner, it can be darn near impossible. If hand tailoring an encounter requires a dm to nerf one character so the others can shine then there is a problem in his/her game.

So let me get this straight:

We have:
1 highly optimized and effective character.
3 poorly optimized and ineffective characters.

Are we supposed to be surprised that the optimized character is outshining them? Hell no, why would we be?

Here, try this, DOMINATION SPELLS.
The synth is considered BOTH of his race AND of the eidolon (So probably Humanoid and outsider) but it takes the worst possible effect. Dominate person will work on him, and then he will turn on his party.
Each round he is full attacking them he gets a will save to snap out of it.

If the OP feels that his current issue is a powerful character then he should act accordingly and find ways to remove the character with some form of crowd control or dominations. This, by virtue of him being unable to act, allows them all to shine.

However, after having been able to shine they might come to the realization that the Synthesist is integral to their success.

Seems fair, and in fact it went something along the line once.

bad guys casted slow, and synth got slowed. monk and war did not (war got a 20 on his dice roll!). Synth was out of haste, they were at the end of a long adventure so he got stuck and nearly useless.

Wasn't really fun since he could do nothing, but at least the other shined. Still, events such as this requires him failing a save, and his will save isn't bad at all (good save, moderate wis, good cloak).

Sure he can be dealt with, but in my eyes he is still OP as hell compared to other melee classes. he has more Hp, does about the same damage, has about or more to-hit bonus and he doesn't get the crappy -5 for each attack after the first, has better AC, in built all sort of buffs and utilities such as fly and dispel, in built healing, in built immunities (and i can never say enough, elemental IMMUNITY for 2 evo points) and in built DR. he also has High CMD thanks to awesome strenght and good dexterity, and can spend evo points to get free manuever attacks.

No, synth is totally unbalanced, but as you guys say i won't let this get me down and i will find a way to make some nice encounters for all of them.

tryhardGM wrote:

yes, orc barbarian is awesome, but orc is not a core race. Werwolves can't be players as far i know, and i wouldn't let a player get something like that.

And the barbarian at least can't fly on his own.

You let the Orc not being a core race stop you?

The Werewolf is a +1 acquired template that can be applied to any humanoid.
For a PC I would recommend you give them one level in an NPC class to offset the +1 template.
I recommend classes where a single dip is more or less a hit-dice that doesn't give anything really special, such as commoner/expert/aristocrat, since Adept gives spells and Warrior gives 1 bab.

Don't fear templates: they can add extra flavor to characters.
Part of being a good DM is knowing how and when you can bend or break rules, and, just to point this out, NOWHERE does it say PCs cannot take templates. It is sort of like honor in Dark Souls, people just came up with it.

Not really, the templates change the CR of something, not it's effective level. They are taylored for monsters.

Getting DR 10/silver and a ton of stats bonuses and natural armor among other things is something reserved for monsters, not PCs. Same goes for the half dragon and such things.

In 3.5 some templates had a character level adjustment that was usually way higher than the template's CR adjustment, and for good reason.

Anyway, we are getting of topic.

tryhardGM wrote:

I don't agreee with the HP blob theory. He is an HP blob, with attacks as strong as a fighter or barbarian, with armor higher than both, with in built immunity to element for just 2 evo poits, in built damage reduction, in built spell such as fly, dispel magic and haste, better skills than the fighter, and an unbalanced evolution surge to get ultra strong if needed, or get some more elemental immunities (like hey, there is a white dragon! "guys, i just got immune to cold").

It is just wrong, sure there are ways to counter that, but it is just wrong.

Yes, he ~can~ attack stronger than a 2-handed fighter or a 2-handed barbarian IF all of his attacks hit, and if he is built to do a ton of damage.

A Barbarian built to do damage would tear a summoner apart at level 10, especially if it was an invulnerable rager. If he is of a race that is there to do a ton of physical damage--think Orcs--then he is probably just going to kill him without a problem.

For added-badassery make the barbarian a werewolf orc.
Now DR10/silver.

yes, orc barbarian is awesome, but orc is not a core race. Werwolves can't be players as far i know, and i wouldn't let a player get something like that.

And the barbarian at least can't fly on his own.

How big is the sythesis when combined? The stronger ones tend to be huge are bigger, and not every building/dungeon is going to be that big. Even being large will be a problem at time.

As for the monk, they can be made to do effective, but you really have to know the rules well, and it also often involves the use of an archetype or multiclassing.

On another note: The synthesis is easier to deal with than a normal summoner. It just looks better on paper, and they are not that difficult. The problem is that they are easier to optimize than front line combatants.

he is large when using evo surge, so ogre sized. most dungeons can fit that.

Ketsueki wrote:

[ . . . ]Synthesist characters are hugely disruptive to the game because they can be great at all things, especially with a 25 pt buy. You build the summoner for skills, buffing and healing; build the eidolon for combat and always wear it. I have yet to see one in a game where it didn't cause other players to feel worthless. It's by that measure that people keep suggesting you ask him to roll a new character.[ . . . ]

I always disagree with telling someone to roll another character because "it is too powerful."

So, to not go with the bandwagon of "Give up as a DM" I'll offer even MORE.
ILLUSIONS.

My favorite spells as the DM are illusions. Most of them do not give a save unless you interact with them. Now, here is a very important aspect: if you cast something like Still Image, and spend your standard concentrating on it then if the PC attacks it then they get a will save to disbelieve, if they fail then they attack again next round and get another save to disbelieve, and this continues until they succeed.

A Gnomish Illusionist with the feat that lowers the concentration tax to a swift allows a gnomish character to maintain the illusion as a swift so he can use his standard to do all manner of things such as cast spells.

The tools to deal with the summoner are there. For a direct approach use a true-dragon that breathes an element, and have it focus on the summoner with its breath weapon--it can spam it every round--so the damage is constant each round.

The point is to not give up as a DM. You don't need to include more powerful enemies, you just need to include the right enemies in the right environments to defeat the synthesist, and at the end of the day the Synthesist is really just a dangerous blob of hit points, and little else.

I don't agreee with the HP blob theory. He is an HP blob, with attacks as strong as a fighter or barbarian, with armor higher than both, with in built immunity to element for just 2 evo poits, in built damage reduction, in built spell such as fly, dispel magic and haste, better skills than the fighter, and an unbalanced evolution surge to get ultra strong if needed, or get some more elemental immunities (like hey, there is a white dragon! "guys, i just got immune to cold").

It is just wrong, sure there are ways to counter that, but it is just wrong.

Yeah you may want to look at why the monk is so weak and not "because he is a monk"

The last monk I played around that level had balanced stats and was self buffing to 34 or so ac with saves the synth only has in his dreams. He should have +16 or so to hit while flurrying and 4-5 attacks. But defensively he should be in line with the fighter. I would audit their wbl and other stuff ro see how above or below the baseline they are.

How could he get to AC 34 is beyond me. He can't even wear the A.O.N.Armor because he needs the one of mighty fists.

mine has something like +3 dex, +3 wis, +3deflection, +4 armor, +3 class
getting him to 26. Sure he can spend a ki point to get to 30, but just for one round.

His saves are awesome, that's true.

@kimera he never payed for the gloves. Check with WBL and he should be there, in fact he has even more than he should, monk's robe and A.O.M.F +3 costs a lot.

tryhardGM wrote:

basically, i have to throw away 4 monster manuals and come up with a strange move just to try and counter a single class. Nice work, paizo.

And he still has to fail his high fortitude save, that goes something like +12 (because he has to use the eidolon kinda low con score right? Otherwise it would have been higher)

Incorrect: Bestiary 1 has the Lich.

The Lich might be interested in unlocking the secrets of the summoner arts. Remember, the paralyze is permanent. If the Summoner gets paralyzed the lich can then teleport away and wait for the party to decide that the summoner has indeed died and leave. Then the lich comes to collect his prize.

The ability to defeat the summoner is there, and within your CR. You just need to keep in mind that the entire point is for the PCs to win in the end, but with a challenge.
If your PCs are insanely good at fighting then add in lots of hazards, if they are insanely good at defeating hazards, then add in traps, if they are insanely good at defeating traps, then add in social bits that could have repercussions.

No character is insanely good at Fighting, traversing hazards, avoiding traps, AND being a socialite. The party might be, but not the single character.

Also, attack at night when they are sleeping, even if they are using Keep Watch to stay awake. Have them make someone with a small army angry at them, preferably your main villain, and have him try to have them assassinated.

Also, keep this in mind, your overall goal is NOT to defeat the summoner, it is the threaten the PARTY. Everyone should be being targeted equally if at all possible. Sure, the summoner will kill whatever he is fighting in 1 or 2 rounds, but the rest of the party will be struggling. The more they are damaged the more resources are spent supporting them.

Will try. As it seems right now, they would have better made the summoner less OP.

The fact that the summone as yous say can "kill whatever he is fighting in 1 or 2 rounds, but the rest of the party will be struggling" means that it is completly wrong.

The rest of the group should be as awesome as he is, not getting their backsides kicked while he does all the job. A couple times they even let the synth go on own his against an enemy just to save rosources because that enemy could only get him on 15+.

I'm lucky enough that they are all adults and never whine about him being OP like hell, or it would have been a real mess.

As I remember it Syth cant ever get pounce anyways, its only available for quadrupeds and the synth is a biped. Also a big thing is that it is not a humanoid and an outsider, it is only which ever is worse for it in any situation, that rules out a lot of spells the last time i checked. Likewise throw an encounter at them in an enclosed space where he cant go big. Cant a banishment tear off his eidolon and leave him particularly squishy? How is his touch AC? Throw an undead gunslinger at them? I believe there is a template for those in beastiary 3.

i like the idea of banishment, i will try that. The gunslinger class is something i'm not really familiar with, i'm going to try that.

Dispel magic anyway seems the best way to deal with them, since they usually rely on buffs like haste,heroism and barkskin.

The thing that makes me a bit sad is that i have a whole collection of monsters and many of them get useless because they lack that kind of attacks. As told earlier, i lack the time to make every fight they make a fight against casters and other NPCs, i wanted to pick up some cool monsters and throw them against the party, but no. They will usually get squashed without making at least a level 10 caster (thing that thakes me about half an hour).

@kymera no the monk has mage armor up all the time, spent nothing on bracers. He has an amulet of mighty fists +3, a cloak of resistance +3, ring of deviation +3 and monk's robe. He also has some old school gloves of dexterity +2, i just thought that they could help. All in all he is somewhere around 25 or 26 AC

Didn't knew about the belt not stacking with bull's strenght, nice to know. Same for cat's grace and dexterity equipment.

He is not wearing an amulet of nat armor, he gets that up using barkskin.

They roughly have WBL of equipment in their hands, just the summoner is on the low end, anyway they have saved a bit to get a rod of lesser quicken to quick cast haste

The problem with synthesist are that eidolons make a lot of rules exceptions and the archetype slaps tuem on top of a pc.

That said he actually looks like the most balanced synty I've ever seen. He only uses nat attacks and only has 4?. The only issue with him I can see is his ac. I'm also assuming he is large sized?

You have two options here. 1 ask him just to not cast mage armor which brings him closer to the other pcs or introduce enviromental constraints where being big is an issue.

Well you can do both really. Having to fight bad guys and deal wity enviromental challenges is often the best way to approach characters limitations tho. Being squeezed does aweful things to hit and ac tho.

He only gets big when he casts evolution surge. And by now, he did it only once and just for fun, he never really needed becoming even more OP.

He has 5 attacks, the maximum for his level, gets the sixth in haste. Throw in rend that is a basically auto hitting strike and he has 7.

he is lacking pounce, that is true.

Now now, saying "You cannot play this class that I allowed you to play because NOW I think it is broken is the DM's way of saying, "I am not creative enough to deal with this issue. You win sir, you win the game. Now, smugly watch me grovel before you."

So, further tips on dealing with your Sythesist:
GHOUL TOUCH, yes, ghoul touch. Now-now, let me explain.

Add an NPC to the game who is a necromancer, now have him specialize entirely on necromancy, have him pick up Spell Focus(Necromancy), and greater spell focus(Necromancy), and then heighten spell.

At level 10 he should have int 21 (15+2(race)+1[4th]+1[8th]+2[headband])
This translates to a base save of Ghoul touch DC 18 (10+5[attribute]+2[spell level]+1[SF{N}]+1[GSF{N}]
add in Heighten spell and it become Ghoul Touch DC 19.

Now, why does this matter?
You can put Ghoul Touch in Spell Storing Armor.
Ehh? Ehh? Get me, yet?

So, you have this necromancer use HIS money to buy his headband, or not, and then use his gold to outfit his minions with cheapy spell storing armors, then he casts his super-duper-ghoul-touch of doom spell into them and BOOM, make a save on hit.
Failed save means Coup de Grace on Eidolon, which means no more eidolon for the day.
Oh, Woe is the Summoner!

Another method is a Witch who Slumbers the Synthesist. If he falls asleep the Eidolon goes bye bye until he spends 10 rounds summoning it again.

basically, i have to throw away 4 monster manuals and come up with a strange move just to try and counter a single class. Nice work, paizo.

And he still has to fail his high fortitude save, that goes something like +12 (because he has to use the eidolon kinda low con score right? Otherwise it would have been higher)

First step....

AUDIT THE EIDOLON.

Read up on all of the rules used in making the character and his pet, and check it out yourself. You SHOULD have an up to date copy of the player's character sheet.

I have rebuilded the eidolon myself checking if everything was all right, found that he could have been much stronger (he has no pounce, spnet some bad evolution points here and there) decided to keep it for myself.

Fighter actually has a two weapon fighter archetype. Gets his armor up under full attack, weapon mastery on full atks, reduces (later negates) penalties for 2wpn fighting.

Vampires and spawns have to hit his stupidly high AC. Sure better than nothing, i could pitch him against four vampires, if they all hit one in the round he gets -8 negative levels, i'll just have to make them hit him.

Thanks for the quick replies.

His sheet is completly legit. he could have been stronger, but he has left some of the loot to his friends.

He is already made out with a 20 point buy sistem. his stats are str 8, dex 8, con 20, int 12, wis 14, cha 18 (this includes the +2 from levels)

I'm really at a loss, i think the only way to solve this is to make him change character.

Paaizo should pay more attention to what they release anyway.

@Mister in fact next fight will probably be a group of evil adventurers, they willf buff each other and cast OP necromancy rays like enfeelbment and the E thing. But i can't make all the fights like that, i took me hours to make that group and i don't have all that time.

For what i have seen the only way to deal negative levels against a char with good saves is a silly spell called E something, a necromancy ray with no saves dealing 1d4 negative levels.

Yeah, that would work, but that would work against anybody. Ranged touch attack that can be easily maximized or empowered with no save (it's only level 4 if i rememeber). But that spell is broken, i will try that only as a last resort.

and healbot always readies at least one restoration.

Well for what i have seen the dex fighter deals out punishment.

They usually have some potions of cat's grace for him, plus haste he gets 33 AC when doing full atk for 1d6+15 damage per strike, critting on a 17-20 and for a total of +24/+24/+24/+19/+19. Only high Dr monsters (like the golem) can really take his full attack.

Monk is useless, i rarely attack him with the monsters so he can stay alive and play, otherwise he is screwed.

Healbot is just that, yeah it sucks he could have been stronger. When he really wants to do some melee he gets the party wide haste, casts divine power on himself and tries to do something, but that's not really good.

@nicos i wouldn't like to have the synth make another character, he is a nice player and since he is already so strong gets only minimum loot by his own free will (he has less than half his WBL, left the rest to the others). He just choose a class he liked, found out a really simple way to become something like a monster.

By rules, his Char would be CR9. Not even CR13 monsters usually can get in his way, how would that be balanced?.

Hi all!

I am a DM, as far as it goes i really like this game but i would have really liked some class balance in the game. As it is right now it looks totally silly.

Here goes, i have a 4 man team of plyers, all of them level 10. I will call them A, B, C and D

First there is A. A is a summoner (synthesist), here are is main features.

AC 40 (10+3 dex+2 deflection+4 mage armor+ 14 natural+ 4 barkskin+1 dodge+2 shield)

4 claws attacks +20/22 with heroism each does 1d6+11
1 bite +19/21 1d8+11
and rend for 1d6+16

DR 5/good, immunity to fire (lol 2 points evolution) can fly using spells, auto cast haste and OP buffs like bull's strenght and greater evolution surge to grow big, granting himself +8 strenght,+6 con and reach.

something like 180 HPs

His feats include something to get -1 attack/+1 AC, power attack for low armor monsters and some other things. He also has near to 0 equipment other than an amulet of mighty fists +1, a cloak of resistance +2 and a belt of strenght +4

How should i even deal with a beast like that? No one in the group, no even B that has some silly fighter with awoseme dex (18+2 human+4 belt+2 level= 26) with dex weapons and dex damaging weapons can deal havok like this man. He is usually just AC 28/30 when taking full attacks and hits for 21/16 (1d6+13)x2 swords.

B can make mincemeat out of CR 9 monsters, can take some punishment with AC 30 after full attacks and 125 HPs but is still nowhere near the synth.

Then we have C, a cleric usually heal botting/buff spamming and getting in melee when really needed, he also has ungodly AC thanks to holy avenger class (until they hit him, but at ac 40 it is a bit difficult)

Lastly, we have D, a monk. This guy is rather useless, sure he deals nice damage when using his flurry but he hits less frequently than the others and his AC is embarassing, something like 25, monsters usually hit him on a 4+ on the d20.

I've tried putting them against CR 14 (advanced iron golem) and they blasted it, they gave the golembane scarab acquired when they were level 6 to the synth, he had haste and bull's strenght up in one round (haste from himself, strenght from cleric) and got in melee. War drunk a potion of cat's grace and got in melee. the poor golem didn't last long.

He needed an 11 to hit the OP synth, when he did he just caused him 20 damage (25-5 from DR), while he got hit frequently (ac 32 vs + 25 to hit) and got killed after 3 rounds (2 actually, 1 was getting in melee and PC's buffing like hell), did some damage only because the war was getting auto hitted or almost.

God if even a CR 14 monster can be laughed at i don't know how to deal with them anymore, help me please.