I've suggested it more than once, and I'll not be using them in my next game. For the most part, though, the issue with clerics and wizards is their spells, not the mechanics of the class itself. Removing broken spells, items and feats brings the wizard and cleric at least closer to in-line with sanity.
We tried both the synthesist and he summoner in my group. The synthesist player suggested banning the class himself. My group have played RPGs for 20 years, and are very good optimizers.If you haven't suggested banning wizards and you think you are good optimizers, think again!
I find it pretty funny that synthesist summoner get called out so much. Regular summoners actually end up better overall, starting around 10 because of their action economy, but pale in comparison to the mighty wizard.
Maybe it is because clerics and wizards have existed for 40 years but summoners are new
My last home game I took out the teleporting and fly spells (though that was really storyline purposes) and banned all spells higher than 5th level. They still got spell slots they could metamagic, but didn't get the higher level spells. Campaign only went until 15, but it seemed to work pretty well I think.
You could try pooping on a sheet of paper, and then flinging it at the guy playing the summoner.
I'm interesting in seeing the exact build, as a few other people here suggested. Eidolons are incredibly easy to build incorrectly to the player's advantage. More eyes looking at it could make sure it's completely legit.
I have a synthesist in the party and...he is overpowered.
Rather than make adjustments, I think you learned a valuable lesson. Synthesists are overpowered.
Many believe all summoners are overpowered, but the master summoner and synthesist seem to be more overpowered than the other archetypes. As the DM you can just not allow the summoner class. Many recruiting threads specify no summoner.
A humorous spell that would permanently switch the synthesist's eidolons physical stats with mental stats would be the great balancer.
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There's a fairly high chance of a math/build error in the Pc's favor. So easy to do.
But the solution is easy "Bob, I know you're having fun playing your PC, but he's way out of line power-wise with the other three PC's. In order to challenge your PC, the other PC's either will die or be mostly useless. If i build the challenge for them, you'r PC will walk all over it. So, this is getting to be Not Fun for me and the other three. So, bring in a new PC, OK? Thanks, I know you'd understand."
The devs specifically ruled that if you can stay up for 24 hours (easy) you get to qualify. Chug a potion of lesser restoration and its really easy (remove fatigue).
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I am glad you are posting that monks can be great if they are multiclassed with one of the tier 1 classes, clerics.
Monks are great right out of the CRB; it's just that few players are willing to build them according to their virtues. (Instead, it's always "make strength your highest stat, and...." No wonder they get their asses killed all the time.)
It is late here and I'm asleep in my chair, so I'm sorry if someone pointed this out already.
But on page 1 of this thread, didn't the OP say that his Summoner had a Str 8, Dex 8, Con 20, but an Int of only 12? HOW is he casting spells over 2nd level? You must have an Int equal or greater than the level of spell you want to cast.
Sorry again if someone else pointed this out already. Or if that post wasn't about the summoner but another PC. Like I said, I'm asleep in my chair. :)
I have this thread interesting so far, I had NO idea that the synthesist was supposed to be so dangerous. I must examine it myself.
Later, :)
Summoner is a Charisma based caster.
To the OP honestly your only mistake was not saying no. Learn to say no. Player A is a munchkin. Remind him that if you're not having fun anymore, you're not going to want to DM.
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I am glad you are posting that monks can be great if they are multiclassed with one of the tier 1 classes, clerics.Monks are great right out of the CRB; it's just that few players are willing to build them according to their virtues. (Instead, it's always "make strength your highest stat, and...." No wonder they get their asses killed all the time.)
Sidetrack: May I present you to the Treantmonk guide for Monks, which does exactly what you're saying not to? Monks need strength to hit, or an agile/guided weapon, or else they suck sans archetypes and such (please tell me this cleric only dipped two levels of monk, and bonus points if they were Sohei/Master of Many Styles.)
Non sidetrack: I really can't agree more with everyone stating that it's a mediocre party with a superstar traveling around. That Cleric could be at the same levels of brutality if they were more active and more system savvy. I also can't agree more that a regular summoner would be tearing up your game even worse.
I've heard it mentioned before but I can't remember who said it, but most people's issue with the summoner is that it's an Arcane caster who's able to melee, which is basically unheard of in legacy. Clerics and Druids have a legacy (at least in 3.5, since I don't have much older exp) of CODzilla, Bards are rarely thought of as combat beast, so with the Synth coming to town with its very solid casting and ability to outmelee a Fighter (not hard when you have spells), people cry broken because they don't think an arcane caster should be laying the hurt down like this.
I don't think a Synth was a good choice for your player to take, especially if they knew there'd be a Fighter and Monk in the party. It's less about how powerful it is and more about the expectations of play. You've got 3 people who want to bring the pain, so the one that's optimized for it (by class or otherwise) is going to shine, while the other two sit out and pout about how magic trumps everything a Tier 5 class can do.
I think you might need to talk to your party more about roles and such, get a group that all fills different slots in combat so you don't come to the party with 3 hammers all looking at 1 nail.
And to think that just the other day I heard tell of a cleric/monk hybrid with Repose & Domain Strike that'd probably solo half the encounters the OP's GM is making right now.No one said monks are not bad for dipping, they are great for dipping!
I am glad you are posting that monks can be great if they are multiclassed with one of the tier 1 classes, clerics.
It really shows how powerful they can be when you add class levels of the best class to them
I wouldn't let a guy in my homegame dump his strength, then give him the option to qualify for powerattack just because his eidolon has 13+ strength.You know this is a houserule right? Do you not let someone who has a belt of str qualify for power attack? Functionally that is what a fused eidolon is
Are you sure that is a house rule? It takes 24 hours typically for a spell or effect to switch from a temporary bonus to a permanent bonus. A temporary bonus does NOT allow someone to qualify for feats or abilities.
Since the eidolon is only out when summoned, and vanishes when he rests, it isn't likely to be in the over 24 hour duration bracket.
Note: I'm not saying I know he doesn't qualify, because I have zero interest in the synthesist, as it is a broken class... but normal rules for enhancements to stats and such are considered with the temporary/permanent clause. Ie. A belt of str counts for power attack qualification after worn for a day, but bull’s strength spell never does because it doesn’t last long enough.
Try using spells that attack stats or drain levels, in general those are a pain to anybody but to your summoner a feeblemind spell (arcane casters take a -4 to their saving throw :p) is a terrifying thing. Bring his int and charisma down to 1, step aside ask him to tone it down if he doesn't drain that last point of charisma and turn him into a comatose summoner.
That aside the thing to do is to talk with the player outside of the game and asking them to tone it down or change characters. It happens from time to time that somebody finds a way to get some ba character that outshines the party, I've wandered into it myself and it's not fun for the rest of the party. Once the other player realizes that maybe it won't be as much of a problem.
One other thing I forgot, since the eidolon gives temporary hit points to the summoner have an encounter where the party is all given so many d8's of temps like a booster... one problem is that the synthesist now loses a lot of his buffer from the eidolon and his real hp since temporary hit points do not stack.
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A snarky suggestion:
Whenever he rolls to hit, he hits (barring a 1), before he rolls for damage just say, "you killed it" Do this over and over and over and over and over and over again. Give him loot on par with the work he has accomplished, and xp to match (that is, near zero). If he complains, just say, "Well, what did you expect to happen after you beat the game? It won't be challenging if you are the all time perfet best."
In regards to the earlier comment about not disallowing a class after the fact, uh... you *can* say, "I did not forsee you unbalancing the game. I think this class/Archtype is overpowered. I think you will agree, if you are honest. What other class can dump 2 out of 3 physical stats and still be the overwhelmingly best melee in the party? I would like you to re-roll your character so we can continue this campaign." This does not mean be mean about it. Talk to the player about a story exit for Bob the Synthy and re-roll.
If you really want to be a jerk, photocopy Bob the Synthy 4 times and have the PCs run into them as a party. When you *absolutely* mop the floor with them, ask the Synthy player, "Still think they are balanced?"
(this is why I dislike/disallow Summoners (and their Eidolons...) when I run games. Yes I am a jerk. No, I don't care that you dislike my 'limited point of view'. The game should be fun for *every* player at the table, from GM to crap-arse Monk. My most recent game is a Cleric of Shelyn, a Paladin of Iomadae, an Alchemist, a Shadow Wizard and a Dwarf Fighter. Man, these guys will never have fun with such gimpy characters. :) )
So you've got one player who is playing a semi-optimized character (and I'll chime in on the "let us see the build" comments as it's easy to get Eidolons wrong) and is good at one thing - smashing big stupid melee enemies. And then you try to solve this by sending bigger melee enemies? It looks as though every one of his defenses except regular AC is weak. Most of his durability is in the form of temporary hit points that don't return naturally; and given the number of buffing spells mentioned in the OP, he must be pretty much out of spells after one fight between the buffing and rejuvenate eidolon spells. Might I suggest mixing up the encounters a bit and possibly having more than one encounter per day?
[ . . . ]Most of his durability is in the form of temporary hit points that don't return naturally; and given the number of buffing spells mentioned in the OP, he must be pretty much out of spells after one fight between the buffing and rejuvenate eidolon spells. Might I suggest mixing up the encounters a bit and possibly having more than one encounter per day?
Just to agree with ZanThrax in many ways, if you are one of the DMs who have 1 battle per day or allow the party to rest whenever they want without consequences then you are doing it wrong if you are attempting to threaten them.
To put this in perspective lets say you have a super-blaster wizard of awesome in a party.
If he knows that they are going to rest after every encounter then he can go ape-s+%@ on spells, and dump all of his super-high-level-death-spells on enemies to effectively solo the encounter. It doesn't matter if he is harmless afterwards because he gets to rest afterwards.
If you can force the summoner to use rejuvenate eidolon multiple times an encounter then you are whittling him down. If you don't allow them to rest because they are being pursued then you are denying him--and the other PCs--the ability to regain spells. This emphasizes the power of the non-casters since they don't really lose power from being fatigued while deemphasizing the power of casters since they are actively losing power with each spell they cast.
This encourages people to memorize/learn spells that are, in a combat sense, useless such as Keep Watch, while at the same time ensuring that you can send your money-shot encounters at the party when you want to emphasize or deemphasize certain characters.
You could add in cursed items, such as an item that prevents the eidolon from leaving the material plane, and therefore, if it dies it doesn't just come back with 1/2 hp the next day, but instead stays on the summoner at 0hp, just not giving him its physical statistics or evolutions. Of course this shouldn't stop the summoner from eating or drinking if you decide to try it out.
I agree with LazarX about needing an audit of the synthesist character. I know of no feat that at L10 allows for only a -1A for a +1 AC. Most feats force players to take harder penalties as they level. I'm sure these have been mentioned, but I would like to emphasize the weaknesses of the synthesis summoner:
first off, all of his attacks that are not with hands/weapons are secondary attacks, thus granting him/her a -5 to attack. Make sure s/he is adding this -5 into his/her attack modifier.
second, and s/he isn't going to like this: the belt of strength +4 does not affect him/her in eidolon-battle armor form. S/he only gets to keep his mental attributes, the physical attributes (strength, dexterity, constitution) are those of his eidolon. If the eidolon goes away, then s/he gets the +4 to strength.
third, being a synthesist summoner, s/he is considered an outsider. spells like banishment and dismissal work wonders against him/her. The summoner has to summon the eidolon to be his/her battlearmor, so dispel magic also works to dismiss the eidolon.
forth, s/he is a natural armor guy - his/her touch ac is 16. If you have trouble hitting the base AC of 40, throw some spells at him/her. They will hit 95% of the time at L10
fifth, for future game sessions ban synthesist.
...They are not primary attacks just because he does not choose to attack with his primary attacks. They are classified as secondary attacks in the APG.
Multiattack (Monster)
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
Using the cheapest tricks to screw a character because these are the only ways to challenge him isn't good GMing ; neither is the passive agressive attitude toward the player I've seen suggested way too often on this thread.
There's a difference between using the cheapest tricks to threaten a specific character and in having a variety of encounters. Most of the posters who've been suggesting encounters that threaten a one-trick synthesist are not saying that all the encounters should be tailored to defeating the character, merely that having all (or even the majority) of the encounters being the type that it cakewalks is bad GMing. It'd be poor GMing even if there wasn't a particular PC that can destroy them.
If they are considered primary attacks, then a player has a maximum of 2 primary attacks per round; not 5. If he does not have TWF, then he takes a -6/-10 penalty to each attack. You'll have to give me a few minutes to find the exact page and quote for the 2 primary attacks per round per 5 bab.
TWF: "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6."
MWF: "Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands."
Weapons are defined as either martial or natural. (Having trouble finding this in the Core Rules - I will look if someone really cares for an exact page number)
He does not qualify for 5 primary attacks, because he only has two hands. The eidolon is summoned battle armor, thus does not qualify him for MWF feat. If he does not have TWF feat, he suffers a -6/-10 to his attacks.
Could you just sit the group down and give them a chance to rework their characters as a joint effort, to close the power gap?
It's not RAW or RAI, but it would be a better first choice than the summoner having to play a different character.
He does not qualify for 5 primary attacks, because he only has two hands. The eidolon is summoned battle armor, thus does not qualify him for MWF feat. If he does not have TWF feat, he suffers a -6/-10 to his attacks.
Nothing in there about limiting number of natural attacks based on BAB. The rules for eidolons due limit how many natural attacks they can have, based on level. At level 10, that maximum is 5. In the descriptions of the different evolutions, they state whether an attack is primary or secondary. For example,Natural Attacks
Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Claws (Ex)
An eidolon has a pair of vicious claws at the end of its limbs, giving it two claw attacks. These attacks are primary attacks. The claws deal 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must have the limbs evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can only be applied to the limbs (legs) evolution once This evolution can be selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an equal number of the limbs evolution...
Tentacle (Ex)
An eidolon possesses a long, sinuous tentacle, granting it a tentacle attack. This attack is a secondary attack. The tentacle attack deals 1d4 points of damage (1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). This evolution can be selected more than once.
Claws and bites are both listed as primary natural attacks. The eidolon has a bite (head) and 4 claws (hand, hand, foot, foot) for a total of 5 natural attacks. Further, eidolons get Multiattack as a bonus feat at 9th level, assuming they have 3 or more natural attacks. Since the summoner/eidolon isn't wielding a manufactured weapon, their natural attacks are all treated as primary.
Unless there has been a stealth errata to natural attacks I'm unaware of, the rules are quite clear. The eidolon is correctly built, at least with regard to its attacks.
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TWF: "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6."
MWF: "Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands."
Weapons are defined as either martial or natural. (Having trouble finding this in the Core Rules - I will look if someone really cares for an exact page number)
He does not qualify for 5 primary attacks, because he only has two hands. The eidolon is summoned battle armor, thus does not qualify him for MWF feat. If he does not have TWF feat, he suffers a -6/-10 to his attacks.
...You really don't seem to understand how natural attacks work. First don't look in the core rulebook, look in the Bestiary. There you will find a nice chart for each natural attack type and determination of whether it is Primary or Secondary. ALL of this builds attacks are primary and since it's not using any manufactured weapons they stay primary.
Asking the other three players to optimizer harder to compete with the synthesist isn't a good solution.
It would be giving them (all 4) the opportunity to balance their characters with each other. If the sumoner toning down his evolutions keeps the game from sucking for 75% of the group and the DM, I don't see why changing a few evolution choices and still have a good build would be a bad thing.
It's just an offering. They may not be interested, maybe they are.
In regards to spells like banishment:
Ultimate Magic page 80
“Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon”
In regards to synthesist Attacks:
APG page 60 (Under Bite Description)
“This attack is a primary attack.”
APG page 60 (Under Claws Description)
“These attacks are primary attacks.”
Ultimate Magic page 80
“The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks.”
APG page 58
“Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.”
APG page 59
“Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat.”
Ultimate Magic page 80
“The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own .”
The synthesist does not gain Multiattack because the eidolon has no feats.
Bestiary page 315 (under Multiweapon Fighting feat)
“Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands ”
HE DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR THIS FEAT! HE ONLY HAS TWO HANDS!
Bestiary page 315 (under Multiweapon Fighting feat)
“Normal: A creature without this feat takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a -10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinders RPG Core Rulebook.”
Are these specific enough for you?
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At level 10 an Eidolon can have up to 5 Natural Attacks and he does.
Multiattack is not needed for this. Multiattack only reduces the penalties for using Secondary Attacks. Claws and Bite are both Primary as per the table in the link above. The presence or lack of for Multiattack is a non-issue.
Multiweapon Fighting has nothing to do with Natural Attacks. It's used for manufactured weapons.
Anything which targets touch AC will wreck that Synthesist, with his extremely high natural armor bonus. Gunslingers (admittedly a class which I ban in my games ^^), ghosts and other incorporeals (Shadow Demons, for example) will give him a run for his money.
In regards to synthesist Attacks:
APG page 60 (Under Bite Description)
“This attack is a primary attack.”APG page 60 (Under Claws Description)
“These attacks are primary attacks.”Ultimate Magic page 80
“The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks.”APG page 58
“Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.”APG page 59
“Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat.”Ultimate Magic page 80
“The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own .”The synthesist does not gain Multiattack because the eidolon has no feats.
Bestiary page 315 (under Multiweapon Fighting feat)
“Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands ”HE DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR THIS FEAT! HE ONLY HAS TWO HANDS!
Bestiary page 315 (under Multiweapon Fighting feat)
“Normal: A creature without this feat takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a -10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinders RPG Core Rulebook.”Are these specific enough for you?
I like the part where you keep quoting Multiweapon Fighting when the Feat in question is Multiattack.
Allow me to quote Multiattack for you:
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
And the general rule of "Eidolons get no Feats" does not override the specific rule of "Eidolons get Multiattack". This is just common sense, use your head. Why would it be printed that they get it if they don't actually get it?
No, what that refers to is the Feats an Eidolon can normally choose, I'd wager.
And none of this that you've quoted prohibits the Synthesist from making a Bite and 4 Claw attacks if his level allow him 5 Natural Attacks in the first place.
Though if you wanna pull something out of this in that vein, how does he have 4 Claw attacks if he only has two hands? Last I heard claws were not for feet, those were for talon attacks.
I didn't read the whole thing so I din't know if it was mentioned but buff spells like Bull's Str, Bear's Endurance, Cat's grace etc. etc. DO NOT stack with the belt/headband that does the same
Yes thanks, I believe Rynjin responded accurately. Are we still in disagreement?In regards to synthesist Attacks:
APG page 60 (Under Bite Description)
“This attack is a primary attack.”APG page 60 (Under Claws Description)
“These attacks are primary attacks.”Ultimate Magic page 80
“The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks.”APG page 58
“Max. Attacks: This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.”APG page 59
“Multiattack: An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat.”Ultimate Magic page 80
“The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own .”The synthesist does not gain Multiattack because the eidolon has no feats.
Bestiary page 315 (under Multiweapon Fighting feat)
“Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands ”HE DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR THIS FEAT! HE ONLY HAS TWO HANDS!
Bestiary page 315 (under Multiweapon Fighting feat)
“Normal: A creature without this feat takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a -10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinders RPG Core Rulebook.”Are these specific enough for you?
The bigger question is:
Does this eidolon use secondary attacks, and after being denied mutli-attack, wouldn't he just switch to using all primary attacks?A slam-reach build can be quite a bit meaner than a mass tentacle build.