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I'm just worried about the lack of spelly things that can be done at low levels. With less spells and an extremely limited exploit pool, I'd find it would be a case of one spell/ability per fight and then rely on a crossbow or something to keep enough resources for future fights.
I'm wondering if it would be useful to double the exploit pool, but convert the existing abilities to double the cost. This could then allow the blast exploits to have an option to reduce their effectiveness now to an equivilent sorceror/wizard bloodline/school blast ability in uses and damage. Gives more chances for being a spellcaster in a fight rather than a feeble crossbowman with some spells at their disposal.
Other than that I do very much like the new setup - definetely a step up from the Arcane Pool stuff from the previous version.
Holy cow, this is cool, although I'm pretty sure that every arcane spellcaster I've ever played would have gladly traded all of their class features and tons of spells for JUST Spell Tinkerer. Heck, maybe even every CHARACTER. The ability makes it possible to pseudo-permanency things for free during downtime at very low levels.
I understand that giving spellcasters any downtime at all is intrinsically super powerful for them, but I don't know if I like that a day of level 6 Arcanist downtime means that somebody can fly for basically forever with minimal further Arcanist investment. For free. (Nine days to start with, which you can easily extend to forever with a little maintenance.) Or am i missing something?
also, i notice a lot of melee touch attacks (particularly the spell drain stuff) on a d6 HD no-armor character.
how exactly are we supposed to use these without getting gibbed immediately?
As explained above, use any number of the myriad of defensive arcane spells you have access to. Mage Armor and Shield are +8 AC right there. Add Blur and Mirror Image for 20% miss chance and decoys. Right there, you're incredibly defensive, and for only 6 levels worth of spells, some of which will last through multiple encounters (and one of which will last all day by higher levels).
No, you can't be good at every little thing at 1st level. Again, you have to sacrifice some areas if you want to specialize in others. But even then, you can still (again, as I said above) put stats into either Dexterity or Constitution and still only be just as MAD as the Fighter.
please pardon the late reply, but isnt that 2-4 rounds youre spending contributing nothing to the encounter? or quite the assumption of available preptime.
Use them on yourself when you get hit with an enemy effect. Ideally avoid getting hit with the effect in the first place, but they're very good as a backup plan.also, i notice a lot of melee touch attacks (particularly the spell drain stuff) on a d6 HD no-armor character.
how exactly are we supposed to use these without getting gibbed immediately?
im not entirely sure how thatd work, since most things that arent buffs are usually instantaneous (theyre done and youre damaged before you can eat it), and lasting effects that you fail your save against will usually down you outright (most SoL spells, particularly anti-mage ones).
other than the odd curse, im not sure how often it'd come up--i could see it saving your bacon vs acid arrow and black tentacles, but not sure what else.
I would have liked to see exploits that let you change:
- Elemental damage types for spells
- Increase spell ranges (excepting personal)
- Decreases/increase spell effect sizes (cone & line lengths, radius)
- Reshape spell effects (cone, cylinder, line, sphere)
ooh, we wordcaster now.
actually, speaking of wordcasters; are they ever going to get any more material?
Holy cow, this is cool, although I'm pretty sure that every arcane spellcaster I've ever played would have gladly traded all of their class features and tons of spells for JUST Spell Tinkerer. Heck, maybe even every CHARACTER. The ability makes it possible to pseudo-permanency things for free during downtime at very low levels.
I understand that giving spellcasters any downtime at all is intrinsically super powerful for them, but I don't know if I like that a day of level 6 Arcanist downtime means that somebody can fly for basically forever with minimal further Arcanist investment. For free. (Nine days to start with, which you can easily extend to forever with a little maintenance.) Or am i missing something?
You're not missing anything, per se... but it's obvious that Spell Tinkering will get fixed so that it only applies to a given spell effect once. Don't get excited over it just yet, this is definitely something that will get fixed immediately.
please pardon the late reply, but isnt that 2-4 rounds youre spending contributing nothing to the encounter? or quite the assumption of available preptime.Well, Mage Armor is 1 hour per CL, so that's already been cast very early in the day. As for the others, yeah, either you'll only get them all when you have time to prep, or you only use one or two at a time. But that wasn't my point: my point was that you don't need to stack defense in the first place, because it's incredibly easy to keep a mage out of the fray as is. I was only pointing those out for the people that still wanted to be super-defensive before getting in close.
...im not entirely sure how thatd work, since most things that arent buffs are usually instantaneous (theyre done and youre damaged before you can eat it), and lasting effects that you fail your save against will usually down you outright (most SoL spells, particularly anti-mage ones).
other than the odd curse, im not sure how often it'd come up--i could see it
doesnt it have to come from a magical source and have a CL/spell level for you to eat it?
doesnt it have to come from a magical source and have a CL/spell level for you to eat it?To gain bonus points back from dispelling it, yes. But not to dispel it in the first place. Though I'm not entirely sure if I'm answering the right question here, as it seems your quote formatting got skewed somewhere along the lines.
i quoted the whole thing, but it seems the forum has a hard limit on how big a quoted post can be--it cut off the rest and added an ellipse (ellipses?) in its place.
also, after re-reading the powers, you need to either successfully counterspell them for one eat effect, and the other you can only steal a spell effect from someone else that doesnt have a range of personal (so... some communal buffs?)
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I would have liked to see exploits that let you change:
- Elemental damage types for spells
- Increase spell ranges (excepting personal)
- Decreases/increase spell effect sizes (cone & line lengths, radius)
- Reshape spell effects (cone, cylinder, line, sphere)
ooh, we wordcaster now.
actually, speaking of wordcasters; are they ever going to get any more material?
In a horrible(in my opinion) move, Paizo will not be adding more material to Words of Power. Which really sucks because it's such a cool system. :(
In a horrible(in my opinion) move, Paizo will not be adding more material to Words of Power. Which really sucks because it's such a cool system. :(I would have liked to see exploits that let you change:
- Elemental damage types for spells
- Increase spell ranges (excepting personal)
- Decreases/increase spell effect sizes (cone & line lengths, radius)
- Reshape spell effects (cone, cylinder, line, sphere)
ooh, we wordcaster now.
actually, speaking of wordcasters; are they ever going to get any more material?
any reason why listed, beyond "we dun wanna"?
any reason why listed, beyond "we dun wanna"?In a horrible(in my opinion) move, Paizo will not be adding more material to Words of Power. Which really sucks because it's such a cool system. :(I would have liked to see exploits that let you change:
- Elemental damage types for spells
- Increase spell ranges (excepting personal)
- Decreases/increase spell effect sizes (cone & line lengths, radius)
- Reshape spell effects (cone, cylinder, line, sphere)
ooh, we wordcaster now.
actually, speaking of wordcasters; are they ever going to get any more material?
My apologies. Turns out I remember the post incorrectly.
It's not that they won't, it's just something very unlikely.
any reason why listed, beyond "we dun wanna"?In a horrible(in my opinion) move, Paizo will not be adding more material to Words of Power. Which really sucks because it's such a cool system. :(I would have liked to see exploits that let you change:
- Elemental damage types for spells
- Increase spell ranges (excepting personal)
- Decreases/increase spell effect sizes (cone & line lengths, radius)
- Reshape spell effects (cone, cylinder, line, sphere)
ooh, we wordcaster now.
actually, speaking of wordcasters; are they ever going to get any more material?
My apologies. Turns out I remember the post incorrectly.
It's not that they won't, it's just something very unlikely.
ah, so a very diplomatic "no" then. what a shame.
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There is a third party pdf for WoP though, sold here on Paizo.
yeah, but third party is just that: third party. lots of dms simply dont allow it.
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Which I've found rather unneeded. I've found more balanced stuff than unbalanced in 3rd party products.
Anyway, back to this threads actual topic now! XD
I like the revised arcanist.
The thing that bothered me at first glance is placing arcane exploits at odd levels instead of being placed at even levels, following the pattern set by other classes. In fact I would prefer tinkering with spells per day and spells prepared lists so the new spell levels would be gained at odd levels - I think such solution would made the flow and development of the class more harmonious.
Odd levels would grant new feat and level of spells (and additional dice to offensive exploits if any) while even levels would grant exploits and increase arcane reservoir starting pool.
This would also allow spread exploits between levels more. Assuming there will be Extra Arcane Exploit feat, there will be instances of character getting two exploits at the same - one from odd level and one from feat.
Spell Tinker exploit should have clause that it can affect specific effect only once to avoid extending single spell into perpetuity by using Spell Tinker multiple times on the same recipient.
then 110 x 1.5 or 165
then 164 x 1.5 or 246
then 245 x 1.5 or 367
then 366 x 1.5 or 549
then 548 x 1.5 or 822
then 821 x 1.5 or 1231
then 1230 x 1.5 or 1845
then 1844 x 1.5 or 2766
then 2765 x 1.5 or 4147
then 4146 x 1.5 or 6219
then 6218 x 1.5 or 9327
then 9326 x 1.5 or 13989 (remember that day has 14400 rounds)
then 13988 x 1.5 or 20982
then 20981 x 1.5 or 31471
Now, in 16 rounds arcanist spent 16 points from his arcane reservoir reaching the point where a single spell tinkering extends duration of the spell by over a 1 day and he has still 44 points to extend it further (my calculator tells me that 44 more points will extend the spell to over 300 thousands years of duration). Who needs permanency?
The same numbers would go for any spell with duration in rounds equal to caster level. Well, it would work for any spell with duration based on level, just adjust the basic time unit - rounds, minutes (multiply the duration by 10), hours (multiply the duration by 600), days...
Of course it still vulnerable to dispel magic, if the arcanist fails to counterspell but still it has terrible potential to spend month buffing the party with semi-permanent buffs.
Even 10th level arcanist pushing CL to 14th, using extend spell and filling his arcane reservoir to full 30 points can easily extend spells lasting 1 round per level into tens of days, allowing him to maintain them in the future for extended periods of times with single point per day...
I just loved the revised Arcanist.
Just need to improve and create new exploits and greater exploits.
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so you can no longer eat magical weapons and armor or standing magical effects? that's a bit disappointing.You can't eat actual magic items. Just consumables and you CAN suppress magic effects. Or eat your spell slots.
Magic is the new health craze!
yeah, but third party is just that: third party. lots of dms simply dont allow it.
Which makes me sad...
Like the flavor, any broken builds yet?
Being a spellcaster, I'd imagine that most things that applies to broken builds for wizard/sorc can also apply to arcanist. Spellcasting on its own is very powerful, and being prepared means you can potentially be ready for anything if you know what's coming, and spontaneous has a great convenience to it. The arcanist can also amass metamagic pretty quickly, which is a large part of making powerful in combat combinations.
Just a thought: I would change Dancing Electricity into something akin to a chain effect jumping between targets instead of a splash.
Also, could anyone of readers test if having improved versions of offensive exploits cost single point instead of two points be game breaking? I got feeling that it should not be a problem and instead encourage their use at higher levels where the regular versions would be probably subpar.
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This new version looks awesome and I can't wait to try it. I'm crunched for time today, so I skipped over posts after the first page, but I want to ask people not to kneejerk too much on this class. It's very versatile but needs its resources managed very well to be effective. I don't think it'll end up being overpowered, but none of us knows for sure until we test drive it.
Now the bloodline and school powers have gone the Arcanist looks/feels like an independent class but that means it doesn't fit in with the others which still look like bastardized versions of 2 other classes.
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Like the flavor, any broken builds yet?
Arcanists are full casters. What makes full-casters broken is their spell lists, not feats or even class features. Those are just gravy most of the time. Whatever spells make Wizards broken will also make Arcanists broken.
That said, Arcanist Exploits are so freaking powerful, they just make this class even more unbalanced... Teleport as a move action, boost spell DC and CL by +2, instant spontaneous dispel, suppressing spells or making them last longer. No Sorcerer bloodline comes even close, and other than a couple exceptions, no Arcane School either.
And of course, Arcanists can recover arcane points and possibly reach a huge amount of them. No other class gets to have that many points of whatever limited resource they use (usually limited to 3+attribute modifier or 1/2 level + attribute modifier) and very few can recover their resource pool without resting. The ones who can do it are not full casters and have a vastly inferior resource pool.
Let's see if I can build a decent Arcanist... I did it in about 10min, so I'm sure it could be improved.
Male Whatever Arcanist 8
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +8
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 70 (8d6+40)
Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +9
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Arcanist Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +17):
4th (3/day)—black tentacles(DC 21)
3rd (5/day)—haste, fly
2nd (6/day)—invisibility, alter self, glitterdust (DC 19)
1st (6/day)—liberating command, silent image (DC 18), mage armor, enlarge person (DC 18), grease (DC 18)
0 (at will)—mage hand, message, detect magic, read magic, ghost sound (DC 17), dancing lights, detect poison, prestidigitation (DC 17)
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 24, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +2; CMD 18
Feats Defensive Combat Training, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Toughness
Traits focused mind, reactionary
Skills Fly +12, Knowledge (arcana) +18, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +18, Knowledge (nature) +18, Knowledge (planes) +18, Knowledge (religion) +18, Linguistics +18, Perception +8, Spellcraft +18
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Daemonic, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Ignan, Infernal, Sylvan, Terran, Undercommon
Other Gear Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of mighty constitution +2, Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of vast intelligence +2 (Fly), Ring of protection +1, Ring of sustenance, Spell component pouch (2), Spellbook, 9475 GP
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Reservoir (up to 24) (Su) You get 5 arcane points when you prepares your spells and get up to 24 arcane points throughout the day.
Arcanist Exploit - Counterspell (Su): By expending one point from her arcane reservoir to attempt to counterspell a spell as it is being cast. The arcanist must identify the spell being cast as normal. If the check is successful, the arcanist can then use an immediate action and expend an available arcanist spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the level of the spell being cast. To counterspell the spell, the arcanist must make dispel check as if using dispel magic. If the spell being countered is one that the arcanist has prepared, she receives a +5 bonus on the dispel check.
Arcanist Exploit - Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see; this is in place of 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke an attack of opportunity for the movement caused by this ability, but any other movement provokes as normal.
Arcanist Exploit - Potent Magic (Su): Whenever the arcanist expends one use of her arcane reservoir to increase the caster level of a spell, the caster level is increased by 2 instead of 1. Whenever she expends one point from her arcane reservoir to increase the DC of a spell, the DC is increased by 2 instead of 1.
Arcanist Exploit - Spell Tinkerer (Su): The arcanist can alter an existing spell effect by expending one point from her arcane reservoir. She must be adjacent to the spell effect (or the effect’s target) and be aware of the effect to use this ability. She can choose to increase or decrease the remaining duration of the spell by 50% (adding or subtracting 50% from the remaining duration). Alternatively, she can suppress a spell effect for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the spell affects multiple creatures, this ability only suppresses the spell for one creature. At the end of this duration, the spell resumes and the suppressed rounds do not count against its total duration. This ability can be used on unwilling targets, but the arcanist must succeed at a melee touch attack, and the target may attempt a Will saving throw to negate the effect. This ability has no effect on spells that are instantaneous or have a duration of permanent.
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Ring of sustenance Immune to hunger and thirst, and only sleep two hours a night.
Arcanists don't even need Cha. At all. Sure, it helps, but it's hardly necessary. If the arcane pool were based on Cha rather than character level, it would be slightly less broken. This guy could use all of his exploits even if he had Cha 7.
He still has over 9000gp left (I had originally bought a Headband of Int +4, but since that might not be available at 8th level, I replaced it with one of Int +2, bought a Ring of Sustenance and didn't bother to spend the leftover money). And of course, let's keep in mind that he's a human with no bonus feat or extra skill points. His only racial trait is a +2 to Int.
Apparently, Panache is too good to increase with level (or even get a +3), but Arcane Pool, a much more powerful resource of a much more powerful class, scaling with level is okay.
Oh, well... C'est la vie. I already accepted the fact that Paizo doesn't care at all if the ACG is balanced or not, much less the Arcanist.
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Like the flavor, any broken builds yet?Arcanists are full casters. What makes full-casters broken is their spell lists, not feats or even class features. Those are just gravy most of the time. Whatever spells make Wizards broken will also make Arcanists broken.
That said, Arcanist Exploits are so freaking powerful, they just make this class even more unbalanced... Teleport as a move action, boost spell DC and CL by +2, instant spontaneous dispel, suppressing spells or making them last longer. No Sorcerer bloodline comes even close, and other than a couple exceptions, no Arcane School either.
And of course, Arcanists can recover arcane points and possibly reach a huge amount of them. No other class gets to have that many points of whatever limited resource they use (usually limited to 3+attribute modifier or 1/2 level + attribute modifier) and very few can recover their resource pool without resting. The ones who can do it are not full casters and have a vastly inferior resource pool.
Let's see if I can build a decent Arcanist... I did it in about 10min, so I'm sure it could be improved.
** spoiler omitted **...
+1 to this. The old version we found a way to allow. With this version, we are back to banning its usage. Nothing in the game gives bonus to caster level except a trait which is for a specific spell. Feats give bonuses to DCs but only for spells from one school. They get a base ability that does BOTH to ANY SPELL!
They have Improved Counterspell and Reactive Counterspell, the latter of which is a 15th lvl feat, as a base exploit, and can get the benefits as a dispel magic spell before they could even cast it.
Dimensional Slide gives them a better option for a 5 foot step.
They can mix both types of metamagic casting with a point expenditure.
Sorry, but this whole revision is a step way back.
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I think what bothers me is that Force Strike is clearly supposed to be the weak, but reliable option, but it actually does more damage than most of the elemental exploits.
Acid, Cold, and Electricity deal 1d4 + 1d4/2 levels, Fire deals 1d6 + 1d6/2 levels while Force Strike deals 1d4 + level. Level by level, let's take a look at the expected damage here (elemental/fire/force):
1st: 2.5 / 3.5 / 3.5
2nd: 2.5 / 3.5 / 4.5
3rd: 5 / 7 / 5.5
4th: 5 / 7 / 6.5
5th: 7.5 / 10.5 / 7.5
6th: 7.5 / 10.5 / 8.5
7th: 10 / 14 / 9.5
8th: 10 / 14 / 10.5
9th: 12.5 / 17.5 / 11.5
10th: 12.5 / 17.5 / 12.5
11th: 15 / 21 / 13.5
12th: 15 / 21 / 14.5
13th: 17.5 / 24.5 / 15.5
14th: 17.5 / 24.5 / 16.5
15th: 20 / 28 / 17.5
16th: 20 / 28 / 18.5
17th: 22.5 / 31.5 / 19.5
18th: 22.5 / 31.5 / 20.5
19th: 25 / 35 / 21.5
20th: 25 / 35 / 22.5
So here's the problem:
Early, Force Strike is flat out stronger, even if the elemental/fire attack hits and the save is failed. Fire jumps ahead at 3rd, but the other elements don't even consistently beat Fore Strike until 9th.
This is a serious problem to me because those other attacks have to hit and the enemy has to fail a save. I understand there are secondary effects to consider, but Dazzled is a joke, Sickened is ok, but a lot of foes are immune to it--only staggered is really worth inflicting as a standard action.
There's also the existence of energy resistance to consider--nothing resists force, and it does full damage to incorporeal creatures, but fire resistance is a standard buff almost every caster has on by mid level, and more creatures are immune to electricity than any other type.
Even at the highest level of damage, fire still does less DPR unless the enemy has an infinitesimal Reflex save and an auto-hit touch AC.
Really, though, the biggest issue is that this is just not a valuable use of a standard action regardless of your choice by level 8 or so. There's a reason Fast Bombs exist for the alchemist (and that they get static bonuses to add as well).
Basically, it feels like the Charisma stuff is a trap. There's basically no benefit to it. If you want damage, Force Strike is a better bet, and if you want status effects, uh, spells, duh. Now, unlike 3rd edition, I don't think this was an intentional trap or anything, I just think it was a "we had to write these abilities up really quick" kind of error that might merit some clean up. I think the elemental effects should:
1) Deal 1d6/1d8 rather than 1d4/1d6
2) Either have saves to reduce the special effects but not the damage or not require a hit roll
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Overall, the flavor is very good. Mechanically, I still find the class to be extremely strong/borderline overpowering compared to most other arcanes.
Particular concerns:
Counterspell: An immediate action counterspell is entirely too strong. There are numerous magic items (otherwordly kimono for example) which raise caster level checks which combined with this innate +5 bonus would result in minimal to no chance of failure on the dispel attempt.
Additionally, if combined with Consume Magic Items and/or Counter Drain, this effectively becomes free immediate counterspells for life unless you are just participating in an absurd number of encounters per day.
Potent Magic: Access to bonus spell DC's are huge for any spell caster. Strategic access to +2 to those DC's is akin to having +4 to your casting stat when it counts. While this is essentially on par with some bloodlines for certain spells or schools (fey bloodline for example), it remains incredibly strong for a class that is so versatile. Most other classes that access such things lack versatility.
Disrupt Spell, Siphon Spell, and Spell Thief: The need for a touch attack, successful caster level check, and a Will save to resist make this particular combination difficult to employ. I consider that reasonable, however, as the Siphon Spell portion of things effectively lends to unlimited free dispels since doing so successfully reimburses your arcane reservoir.
Spell Tinkerer: The ability to ignore terrible spells effecting you, even for a short period, is incredibly strong.
Edit: At least it will not work on instantaneous or permanent effects. That is slightly better than my initial perception.
If nothing else, the Counterspell power absolutely must go. You can retain the flavor of the this feature while still being useful and keep some semblance of balance by instead having this exploit act as follows:
"When readying an action to counterspell as normal, an Arcanist may use a spell of the same school and of equal level or higher than the target spell to perform his counterspell."
In that case, it becomes clearly superior to the Improved Counterspell feat with being mindblowingly powerful as it is now.
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There is only exploit I can think of that makes charisma worthwhile on an Arcanist. Spell Tinkerer.
"Nice Web spell bro."
"How did you ge-"
"Wanna see a magic trick?"
"What is this I don't eve-"
*Casts maximized burning hands*
LOVE the revision.....
Would like to see exploits that focus on "rune magic" (Glyph and symbol spells)....things along the line of spontanious symbology and some of the Cypher lore abilities.
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Counterspell: An immediate action counterspell is entirely too strong. There are numerous magic items (otherwordly kimono for example) which raise caster level checks which combined with this innate +5 bonus would result in minimal to no chance of failure on the dispel attempt.
I actually have to disagree strongly with this. Immediate Action counterspelling should already be how it works, and all of the caster level bonuses you're talking about are just as easily and commonly employed by the caster, so it's not as big a deal as you're suggesting.
Spell Tinkerer: The ability to ignore terrible spells effecting you, even for a short period, is incredibly strong.
I think more people having this ability (especially Fighters or other non-magical characters) would go a long way towards reducing magical domination at higher levels.
Admittedly, sticking these powers on a full prepared/spontaneous caster is risky, but I really don't think the Arcanist is more powerful than Wizards or Sorcerers, just different and, finally, with a flavor I really like.
Of course in my ideal game, magic wouldn't be better than literally every other possible option, but it is, so I'm happy to have more magical options at least, especially those that counter and reduce the impact magic has on the game, allowing non-magical characters more of a chance to shine.
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Am I the only person who noticed how broken the capstone is? At 20, most low level spells are meaning less to a full caster, and a arcanist with this capstone can easily convert them into nearly endless equivalent 9 or 8th level spell slots.
My only suggestion to balance this class is to reduce the absurdly huge pool to a reasonable scale, e.g. 5+ Class level +cha mod
I'd like to vote in favor of getting rid of the saves on the ray effects, considering they aren't that good to begin with. Plus, they're already ranged touch attacks. Plenty of ray attacks let your AC act as your saving throw against spell effects.
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I have a confession: the minmaxer in me is really excited for this class. Besides being a fullcaster with the wizard spell list, these arcane exploits are ripe for, well, being used as exploits. Also, the fluff of this class, being a magichacker, fits really well with being overly optimized and minmaxed. It's in character to do all of this! :D
On the other hand, the DM in me recognizes how absurdly broken this is. When I DM, I'll probably ban this class (though it would make a great villain!). I'll just have to hope the people I play with don't do the same when they DM.
I just noticed my build has the Scribe Scroll feat... This is because I made Zeh by creating a Wizard and HeroLab then adapting the class features, but forgot to remove Scribe Scroll, feel free to ignore that feat.
I'd like to vote that the damage-based arcane exploits be changed, so that they have Fortitude saves instead of Will saves, and that a successful Fortitude save negates the status effect but does not halve the damage.
is there going to be an "Extra Exploit" feat for the arcanist?
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Dimensional slide makes ths an excellent dip class for mobile fighter types (Magus being a good option, eldritch knight another).
Especially if it opens up the dimensional agility chain ( it doesn't now of course, but that is the kind of thing that often gets changed by a get, magic item, FAQ, etc)
Like many people I love the class and will be playtesting it. But it definitely needs to have some exploits toned down.
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Assuming I did the calculations correctly, it's 6400gp to craft a staff with a single 2nd level spell (1 charge). So with consume magic items and craft staff, it's relatively cheap to create a staff you can use to replenish up to 10 arcanist reservoir points. (Craft staff is already a great feat for an arcanist, as it helps you get around the limited number of spells you can prepare. Not at all a waste of a feat.) You can refill it with 2nd level slots at the end of the day or when you aren't adventuring. At high levels, just stuff an efficient quiver full of them. When you get magical supremacy, you get a lot of 9th level spells for basically free.
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I actually have to disagree strongly with this. Immediate Action counterspelling should already be how it works, and all of the caster level bonuses you're talking about are just as easily and commonly employed by the caster, so it's not as big a deal as you're suggesting.
But that is not how it works at present. That being our reality, do you believe it fair, balanced, or otherwise acceptable that Arcanist will be the only class it does work that way for?
I think more people having this ability (especially Fighters or other non-magical characters) would go a long way towards reducing magical domination at higher levels.
Perhaps. Perhaps it would also go a long way towards making magic largely ineffective outside of direct damage, instantaneous, and permanent effects, however.
I will be the first to agree with you and say magic is extremely dominant during later game. But a solution to that needs to be a reworking of the base system, not blanket immunities as Spell Tinkerer provides. Furthermore, the last thing such an ability deserves to be on is a full blooded arcane caster.
There are several things wrong with this idea. First you can only charge staves when you prepare spells. Second you can only replenish one charge in a staff a day. Finally, you can only do this on one staff any given day. 2nd level Wands would be a better investment. Craft for 2,250 gp, and can get 10 points out of each.
Oh, that's true. It's still something you could recharge when not adventuring (or using simulacra of yourself) and then blow through all of the charges when necessary. Or get everyone in the party who casts spells to contribute. What else is the ranger going to do with that 2nd level spell slot? It's less broken then I thought, but there's still some ridiculous stuff that can be done.
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Overall, the flavor is very good. Mechanically, I still find the class to be extremely strong/borderline overpowering compared to most other arcanes.
Particular concerns:
Counterspell: An immediate action counterspell is entirely too strong. There are numerous magic items (otherwordly kimono for example) which raise caster level checks which combined with this innate +5 bonus would result in minimal to no chance of failure on the dispel attempt.
Counterspell is a Supernatural ability that Jason said is a standard action. The Immediate action is casting the magical energies to counter it. So you end up wasting 2 resources (1 point and a spell level) to do an anytime counterspell. At higher levels you only have to use a spell level. So you it is not really an immediate counterspell.
Am I the only one that has noticed dimensional slide is part of a move action and only consumes 5ft of movement? Meaning you activate it and move 10ft/level, then still have 25ft you can move.
Also, the greater metamagic knowledge allows you to spend points to change your metamagic feat, however you can technically spend the points from the day before because of the wording.
Love love love the new direction and it's my number one to play now.
I had read that differently, but I see you are correct. As written, you could even spend two points (and double move) and teleport 20 ft. per level, and still have 50 ft. of movement left over.
But that is not how it works at present. That being our reality, do you believe it fair, balanced, or otherwise acceptable that Arcanist will be the only class it does work that way for?
I think it is better for one class to be able to do it than no classes, yes.
But I have to say, if the later explanation of this ability (that it costs a standard and an immediate action), would make it utterly useless and would be severely disappointing to me.
Perhaps. Perhaps it would also go a long way towards making magic largely ineffective outside of direct damage, instantaneous, and permanent effects, however.
I am totally ok with that. :)
Furthermore, the last thing such an ability deserves to be on is a full blooded arcane caster.
This, I agree with, but I'd rather it be on some class than no class.
Ideally, it'd be on a Spellthief rework of some kind, but this is better than nothing.
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So, the capstone actually mas me a little worried about what the Arcanist could do at level 20, so I decided to do the math to see how many times a level 20 Arcanist with 36 Intelligence (20 + 5 level + 5 tome (or wish 5 times) + 6 headband) could cast wish in a single day.
It turns out, if said Arcanists sacrifices all of their non-level 9 spell slots to their pool, they can cast Wish exactly 33 times in a single day, and the kicker, they can do this in just under 9 minutes, though it would cost them 825,000 gp. Every single one of these castings could be done at caster level 22 if the Arcanist wanted.
Now Wish is just an example I'm using, since wish can do almost anything your GM allows, but any level 9 wizard/sorcerer spell could be used instead, Time Stop for rounds, or maybe time stop for rounds and then gate 18 times, so that by the time time resumes 18 gates suddenly open and pop out 18 powerful creatures and you are no where to be found!
Using all of your daily resources in a small amount of time may not be a fair consideration, but what if the level 20 Arcanist isn't a PC, but the BBEG who has little reason not to use all of their resources to take care of the PCs as fast as possible! And if we're using the time stop/gate combo I mentioned above, well it could all be done in 1 round if one rolls high enough on the time stops.
I honestly don't have that much of an issue with this ability, aside from the fact that it suddenly makes the Arcanist feel like a completely different class at level 20 then it does at levels 1-19. At level 1-19, no spellcaster, not even an Arcanist can use multiple lower level slots to cast more higher level spells, but then suddenly at level 20 the Arcanist above can cast 297 levels worth of spells per day, rather then what their table says they can cast at level 20. If the Arcanist is going to use a "Spell Point system" it's not something that should all of a sudden be introduced at level 20 IMO. Name one other class that suddenly becomes completely different at level 20 the way the Arcanist does and I may change my mind, but the capstone is a really really big change for going from level 19 to 20.