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First, counterspell is too powerful. Too powerful because it changes action economy and it grants two feats (one which AFIK, doesn't exist elsewhere). If it did one of these I would feel better about it. If it cost more to use than a acid dart I would feel better about it.
Speaking of feats. Most casters have to spend a feat to counterspell a spell with the same school. I dinnae think there is a feat to allow counterspelling with any school. (dispel magic is the front runner for that). This exploit does both, and is worth two feats in my opinion.
Recommendations: counterspell uses the standard action of your next round.
Counterspell costs more arcane reservoir points.
Counterspell is two/three exploits (immediate, same school, any spell).
Bolded for emphasis; this should be up front and centre in the quoted post, not hidden behind a spoiler, because it's that important.
I played an Abjurer from level 1-20 in Shackled City, and his ability to wreck incoming spells was considered powerful, even when I had to spend a slot of the same school, and a level higher than the targetted spell. And even that required a feat to perform.
The Arcanist may lag a spell level (or two) behind any expected BBEG caster (at least till level 18), but he doesn't necessarily need to be able to use immediate counterspells on the highest-level incoming spells, given that she has a way to automatically suppress them.
E.g., if the BBEG's highest-level spell is an effect with a duration, and the Arcanist identifies the spell during casting, and realises she hasn't got any slots that high, so what?
What's the worst that can happen, if the Arcanist can act before the affected ally, and (as currently written) automatically suspend the effect?
Worst-case scenario is that the ally is affected for one round. Usually, spells with durations are not powerful enough to kill an appropriate-level PC in one round of that duration.
There is very little appreciable difference between a spell with a duration, that can automatically be switched off for the duration of the encounter, and a spell that was countered during casting.
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your abjurer was automatically doing it because it was using a feat to counter it by using the same school rather than the counterspell/same spell.
Counterspell (Su): By expending one point from her arcane reservoir to attempt to counterspell a spell as it is being cast. The arcanist must identify the spell being cast as normal. If the check is successful, the arcanist can then use an immediate action and expend an available arcanist spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the level of the spell being cast. To counterspell the spell, the arcanist must make dispel check as if using dispel magic. If the spell being countered is one that the arcanist has prepared, she receives a +5 bonus on the dispel check.
The arcanist is far from guaranteed, they are a handful of ways of boosting your caster lvl beyond your lvl, but mostly they are expensive, or just not really available. You can't even arcane empower it...
If he fails and uses the spell tinkering like you're discussing, again he's using an action... and resource... but he's also gotta be adjacent... or in the effect.
I do suspect the suspension part they may change the action on, but I honestly wouldn't care if they didn't. It's a kewl ability that has zero impact if it affects the wizard for the most part... since the ones you're going to be upset if he suspends tend to prevent him from doing so.
How do people see discussions like this and still think WBL is a good thing in any way? I am even more convicted in my "no magic items at all" stance.
That said, once again, I need to advocate for the removal of Consume Items as a balance point, because my players will never get to do it.
hey, lets make it even harder for martials to keep up with casters because a new caster profits from it!
magic items exist for EVERYONE. and not every party will be okay with him snacking on their emergency potion stash or whatever. what he spends his money on is his own business, but i would in-character shank a person who keeps filching our rather expensive magical supplies--its like dealing with a rogue robbing the other players.
im reminded of necromancers having to shell out constantly for onyx, only for the arcanist theyre buying potions and such.
i fear for the wallet of a necromancer arcanist.
but yeah, dont punish mortals for that the gods are doing.
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Ahh yes, the horror of having literally years of downtime for magic item creation and (assuming you managed the kingdom correctly for the first 2-3 years) being able to pull ~10,000gp/month salaries for the party. I just hate being loot starved like that. ;-)
To be fair, the first couple modules, before your kingdom's magic item economy kicks in, are pretty loot starved.
Well I don't. The Arcanist does not need a buff, and this would be one. It would also take too much from the Sorcerer who's more inherently innately magical in nature than either of the book casting classes and this feat is part of that flavor for them.
I agree that it's stepping in on the sorcerer's fluff, but eschew materials is so weak and is so rarely helpful in practice that I don't think it's much of a buff to give it to the arcanist.
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How do people see discussions like this and still think WBL is a good thing in any way? I am even more convicted in my "no magic items at all" stance.
That said, once again, I need to advocate for the removal of Consume Items as a balance point, because my players will never get to do it.
hey, lets make it even harder for martials to keep up with casters because a new caster profits from it!
magic items exist for EVERYONE.
Huh? I'm not removing magic items because of the Arcanist.
I remove magic items because I hate magic items in my game. My problem is that if they balance the Arcanist around using Consume Items to keep their AR up, they'll be really boring in my game since they won't have any AR.
I am fully aware of how powerful full casters are, so I have plenty of things in place in my game to prevent that. Spellcasters have never taken over my games, and actually, it's never really come up because the vast majority of my players avoid prepared casters like the plague (because Vancian Magic is tedious and unfun).
I just don't want the Arcanist, a class I think is cool in concept, to be balanced around eating items.
If it was so weak and worthless. why do you want it? On the other hand it....
1. Means you don't have to worry about a spell component pouch which factors into 2.
2. Makes all sorts of shape-chanaged or handless spellcasting possible.
Oh I don't particularly care whether arcanists get eschew materials. I think it could be given for free to all spellcasters and there'd be barely any impact on power level for the classes. Or it could be completely removed from the game and it would hardly affect anything.
There's not much worry in having a spell component pouch. There is the danger that it gets sundered or stolen, but how often does that happen? Also, except for maybe really low levels, it's really easy to carry around spare spell component pouches. Eschew materials helps in prison break scenarios and the like, but that's really situational.
As for polymorphing, somatic components still get in the way of handless spellcasting, so eschew materials won't help you there. The rules for polymorph do state that your gear melds into your form and you cannot cast spells without eschew materials or natural spell. However, some of the forms you can turn into are capable of using spell component pouches. For example, dragons don't get eschew materials as a bonus feat, yet they still cast spells as sorcerers. They have to be getting the materials from somewhere. Hence, the issue with polymorph and eschew materials has to be that any spell component pouches on you become unusable. If a player in a game I was DMing did something like give a spell component pouch to a familiar to carry so they could grab it after polymorphing, I'd be perfectly okay with allowing that.
In any case, eschew materials does make polymorph better, depending on how your DM rules things. If they don't like you getting around the gear melding issue, then eschew materials is useful.
For reference:
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body... While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
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I just don't want the Arcanist, a class I think is cool in concept, to be balanced around eating items.
I don't think the Arcanist is balanced around Consume Magic Items. It's balanced around Consume Spells, the class feature you get at level 1. Consume Magic Items is one from a list of possible Exploits, and probably one that someone would choose 5th at the earliest. I would take Dimensional Slide, Counterspell, Potent Magic and Spell Tinkerer first. And possibly Metamixing and/or Metamagic Knowledge.
You won't really want Consume Magic Items until high levels where you can afford high-level consumables or Staves.
There are plenty of spells that don't need int. As long as you have enough int to cast your highest level spells you don't need any more. Better to have unlimited arcane points and make all your spells have unlimited duration than have a greater amount of spells that only last the normal duration. In essence, you can have MORE spells with higher charisma because the spells you cast yesterday are still going when you get todays spells...I don't see how you came to this conclusion, considering you don't gain AR points based on your CHA modifier. Besides, I wouldn't expect spell tinkerer to get printed in the final book as it is now: As-is, it's Incantatrix on crack.
I'm basing my replies on the class as is. With Spell tinker and spell thief you can dispel your own cantrips with a rather large bonus to the dispel checks (cha and other mods added). You spend 1 arcane point to dispel and with a good enough roll you get two points back (easy to do). Net gain of one point per cast and dispel and unless you fail it's still only break even. In no time pool full.
Take any spell with duration then add 50% to until it lasts over a day, move on to next spell taking recharge breaks until all spells running for over a day. Sleep and pick different spells. repeat plus buff already spells to stay till next day. By the end all your duration spells are up and running and your prepared spells are all instant or non-personal ones.
You end up with MANY more spells my making your dispel rolls get you 2 points back. Cha is a HUGE bump to this. Note that it DOES take 13th level to do this.
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Really hope there will be some illusion and necromancy and enchantment exploits...
i dont know about anyone else but for flavor reasons alone i will defiantly be running arcanists without the spellbook and tied directly to wordcasting.
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Consume Magic Items (Su): The arcanist can consume the power of potions, scrolls, staves, and wands, using them to fill her arcane reservoir.
Huge disparity in costs with those items, and money being converted inefficiently into power I lose at the end of the day makes me sad.
Counterspell (Su): By expending one point from her arcane reservoir to attempt to counterspell a spell as it is being cast. The arcanist must identify the spell being cast as normal. If the check is successful, the arcanist can then use an immediate action and expend an available arcanist spell slot of a level equal to or higher than the level of the spell being cast. To counterspell the spell, the arcanist must make dispel check as if using dispel magic. If the spell being countered is one that the arcanist has prepared, she receives a +5 bonus on the dispel check.
Okay, I love this idea, but it's just too potent as-is compared to the rest of the game. It's like wrapping Mythic Improved Counterspell up with Counterspell Mastery from the Counterspell Arcane school, and then letting you do it more than once per day. I'd be more than happy with something that worked like this:
Counterspell (Su): As a swift action, you may spend one point from your arcane reservoir to prepare yourself to counter enemy spells. This preparation lasts for rounds equal to 1/2 your Arcanist level, minimum 1. While this ability is active you automatically attempt to identify spells cast by enemy casters (DC 15 + Spell Level). If you successfully identify the spell, you may then Counterspell it as an immediate action, as if you had used the Counterspell readied action against that target. If you have Dispel Magic prepared, you are not required to identify the spell before countering it. (Though you are still entitled to the roll.)
Dimensional Slide (Su): The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to create a dimensional crack that she can step through to reach another location. This ability is used as part of a move action, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per arcanist level to any location she can see; this is in place of 5 feet of movement. She can only use this ability once per round. She does not provoke an attack of opportunity for the movement caused by this ability, but any other movement provokes as normal.
This is more powerful than Shift, but the relatively limited amount of use you get makes it work for me. Too bad that unlike Shift, it is not a get-out-of-grapples free card.
Metamagic Knowledge: The arcanist can select one metamagic feat as a bonus feat. She must meet the prerequisites of this feat.
I'd actually like for this to be available more than once - but probably staggered, say, you may take it once for every 5 Arcanist levels you possess.
Metamixing (Su): The arcanist can expend one point from her arcane reservoir to add a metamagic feat to a spell as she casts it, using a higher-level spell slot as normal, but using the spell’s original casting time. She can use this ability to add a metamagic feat to a spell that she prepared using a metamagic feat, although she cannot the same metamagic feat on a given spell more than once.
Beautiful way to make metamagic useful for a spontaneous caster. Maybe for a more advanced version of this exploit, you could spend points from your arcane reservoir to reduce the level of the spell slot used? Make it cost say, three per spell level. I think 12 points to quicken a spell is reasonable, personally - especially as you're unlikely to pull that off more than once a day.
Spell Tinkerer (Su): The arcanist can alter an existing spell effect by expending one point from her arcane reservoir. She must be adjacent to the spell effect (or the effect’s target) and be aware of the effect to use this ability. She can choose to increase or decrease the remaining duration of the spell by 50% (adding or subtracting 50% from the remaining duration). Alternatively, she can suppress a spell effect for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1). If the spell affects multiple creatures, this ability only suppresses the spell for one creature. At the end of this duration, the spell resumes and the suppressed rounds do not count against its total duration. This ability can be used on unwilling targets, but the arcanist must succeed at a melee touch attack, and the target may attempt a Will saving throw to negate the effect. This ability has no effect on spells that are instantaneous or have a duration of permanent.
Limit this to one use per spell and make it require a Spellcraft check similar to counterspelling, maybe? Seems too good to just do it for a point.
Consume Spells (Su): The arcanist can spend a standard action to expend an available arcanist spell slot, making it unavailable for the rest of the day just as if she had used it to cast a spell. In doing so, she adds a number of points to her arcane reservoir equal to the level of the slot consumed. She cannot consume cantrips (0 level spells) in this way. Points added to the arcane reservoir in excess of the limit (see arcane reservoir) are lost.
I do like this, lovely feel to it, nice and unique.
Counter Drain (Su): Whenever the arcanist successfully counterspells a spell, the arcanist regains points to her arcane reservoir depending on the level of the spell countered. Spells of 2nd-level or lower do not restore any points. Spells of 3rd, 4th, and 5th level restore one point. Spells of 6th, 7th, and 8th level restore two points. Spells of 9th level restore three points. The arcanist must have the counterspell exploit before selecting this exploit.
Couldn't make it easier and just say that you restore points equal to one-third of the spell level? Oh well. Personally I think one-half would be nice.
Disrupt Spell (Su): The arcanist can disrupt a spell effect or magic item by expending one point from her arcane reservoir. This acts like a targeted dispel magic with a range of touch. The arcanist can add her Charisma bonus to the dispel check.
I'd like this to have some range - say, 30 feet, as I really don't want to touch that Wall of Fire to dispel it - but otherwise it's lovely.
Siphon Spell (Su): When the arcanist uses the disrupt spell greater exploit, she can siphon some of the power to restore her arcane reservoir. If the caster level of the spell is equal to or higher than the arcanist and she exceeds the DC of the dispel check by 5 or more, she regains 1 point to her arcane reservoir. If she exceeds this check by 10 or more, she instead regains 2 points to her arcane reservoir. This has no effect on magic items. The arcanist must have the disrupt spell greater exploit before selecting this exploit.
I'd like it if this didn't require the spell to be of equal level or higher. It would be nice if it functioned on the same scale as Counter Drain (1/3 the spell level), but only happens when you succeed at the dispel check by 5 or more, rather than every single time you use it. Make it better and let it give you half the spell level in points?
Spell Thief (Su): The arcanist can steal a spell affecting one creature by expending one point from her arcane reservoir. If the creature is unwilling, she must succeed at a melee touch attack to steal the spell; the target must succeed at a Will saving throw to negate the effect. The arcanist can specify a spell affecting the target to steal, but if she’s incorrect or doesn’t know what spells are affecting the target, the spell stolen is determined randomly from all those affecting the target. If successful, the spell effect transfers to the arcanist, affecting her for the remaining duration. This ability doesn’t grant the arcanist a saving throw against the effect, unless it normally allows for a new saving throw during its duration (such as at the end of each round). The arcanist cannot use this ability to steal a spell with a range of personal or a duration of permanent. The arcanist must have the spell tinkerer exploit before selecting this exploit.
I'd rather this worked to copy spell effects rather than steal them. If you want to take a spell off of them, that's what Disrupt Spell should be for - this ability completely negates that, otherwise. How about this?
Spell Shadow (Su): The arcanist can duplicate a spell affecting one creature by expending a number of points from her arcane reservoir equal to the spell level of the effect. She must succeed at a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + Spell Level) and succeed on a melee touch attack. The arcanist can specify a spell affecting the target, but if she's incorrect or does not know what spells are affecting the target, the spell copied is determined randomly from all those affecting the target. If successful, the spell effect transfers to the arcanist (or, for an additional point from the Arcane reservoir, the arcanist may select a new target within 30 feet), affecting her as long as the original spell remains in effect on the original target. This ability doesn't grant the new target a saving throw against the effect, unless it normally allows a new saving throw during its duration (such as at the end of each round). The arcanist cannot use this ability to duplicate a spell with a range of personal or a duration of permanent. The arcanist must have the Spell Tinkerer exploit before selecting this exploit.
Magical Supremacy (Su): At 20th level, the arcanist learns to easily convert her arcane reservoir into spells and back again. She can cast any spell she has prepared directly from her arcane reservoir, instead of expending a spell slot, by expending a number of points from her arcane reservoir equal to the level of the spell to be cast. When she casts a spell in this fashion, she treats her caster level as 2 higher than normal, and the DC of any saving throws associated with the spell increase by 2. She cannot further expend points from her arcane reservoir to enhance a spell cast in this way.
I think this needs something stating that the Arcanist can only cast spells of a given level in this way a number of times per day equal to her normal daily allotment. (So at most, she can cast twice the normal number of spells per day.)
Lead Designer
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In anticipation of a revised version of the playtest document going live, this thread is locked. A new thread will be created to discuss the revised version of the class. Please refrain from carrying over existing discussions to the new thread to avoid confusion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer