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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber. Organized Play Member. 30 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


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Silver Crusade

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Don't forget this is not EVERYTHING that will be in the final product. This is a sampling to be tested and see if the mechanics work. And let's be clear, this approach to multiclassing is superior and streamlined. It gives you everything the old version did without the crazy power bumps or exploitations from certain combinations. this is an amazing system that has actually been around even in 1E, though just not an official part.

Multiclassing archetypes are a home run and I'm glad the designers found that 3pp material and adopted it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I too am of the feat tax party. You gain minor benefits but you can't start truly exploring the divided nature of your ancestry. As pointed out above weapon familiarity or iconic elf/orc things get pushed to 5th level or beyond before they are even an option. I'm sure it was done for balance reasons, but maybe make the Half ancestries be free then gain the traits as written but also the ability flaw. Then you have immediate access to human and half ancestries. This keeps humans from being an automatic choice and gives them a free ancestry only for taking the half option which also streamlines things like you are aiming for.

Silver Crusade

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I have been tweaking this idea for a bit. It is a sword and pistol wielder so it draws on the deeds of both Gunslinger and Swashbuckler. Would welcome feedback

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A Gentleman is proficient with light armor but not with shields. A Gentleman is proficient with all simple weapons, a single light or one-handed piercing weapon of his choice, and the pistol. This replaces the Rogue’s normal proficiencies.

A Gentleman gains a battered pistol that is identical to the gun a Gunslinger gains at first level.

Canny Gentleman
A Gentleman gains the Amateur Gunslinger feat with the following modifications. A Gentleman gains the deed below and has a maximum amount of Grit/Panache equal to his Intelligence modifier. This feat cannot be traded for Extra Grit if the Gentleman gains levels in Gunslinger or Swashbuckler.

Dexterous Reload (Ex): At 1st level, as long as the Scoundrel has 1 point of grit/panache, he may take a full-round action to sheath his weapon, reload his pistol, and redraw his weapon. If the Scoundrel has the Quick Draw or Rapid Reload feats he may instead do this as a standard action. If the Scoundrel has both the Quick Draw and Rapid Reload feats he may execute this as a move action.

This ability replaces the Rogue’s Sneak Attack +1d6 and Trapfinding

Gentlemanly Combatant
The Gentleman practices making precise and exact thrusts, relying on skill and finesse rather than force to connect with his enemy. This practice grants the Gentleman Weapon Finesse at 2nd level. At 4th level, a Gentleman becomes exceptionally skilled at combining the use of his blade and pistol. While wielding both weapons, a Gentleman benefits from the Two-weapon Fighting feat and is considered to have a light weapon in his off-hand. The Gentleman may take feats that improve this ability but he only qualifies while wielding the blade and pistol. At 8th level, a Gentleman gains the benefits of the Sword and Pistol feat without needing to meet the prerequisites. Additionally, a Gentleman gains increasing understanding of his chosen fighting style and may select from the following feats at 3rd level and every four levels after (7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th)as long as he meets the prerequsites:

Weapon Focus, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Dodge, Mobility, Shot on the Run, Spring Attack, Signature Deed, Gunsmithing, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Break Guard, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Feint, Slashing Grace, and any Grit feats.

This replaces the Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge abilities and Sneak Attack damage increases at 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th.

* The Signature Deed feat may be taken twice, but may only be applied to one Gunslinger Deed and one Swashbuckler Deed.

A Gentleman’s Understanding
In addition to the normal Rogue Talents, a Gentleman may also select a Deed from the Gunslinger and Swashbuckler list that he qualifies for. Additionally, the Gentleman may not select any talent that modifies the Sneak Attack ability.

This augments, but otherwise functions exactly like, the Rogue Talent ability.

Gentleman’s Prowess
As a Gentleman gains levels he increases his understanding of his combat abilities, gaining an increasing pool of Grit/Panache. At 3rd level and every three levels after (6th, 9th, 12th etc) his starting pool increases by +1 (To a maximum of his intelligence modifier).

This ability replaces the Rogue’s Trap Sense ability

Cunning of the Gentleman
The Gentleman is crafty and careful in placing his strikes. Starting at 5th level and every four levels after, a Gentleman gains +1d6 sneak attack (+2d6 at level 9, +3d6 at lvl 14, and +4d6 at level 18). This otherwise functions in all ways like the Rogue’s sneak attack. Additionally, the Gentleman has access to some unique Deeds.

Sword Sighting (Ex): A Gentleman of 5th level may select this deed. This functions in all ways like the Ricochet Shot deed except you may only use the squares you threaten as the new origin of the shot.

Blast and Stab (Ex): Using a full-attack action, a Gentleman of 9th level may use his firearm to attack a creature he threatens in melee. He takes a -2 penalty on the attack and damage rolls. If the attack hits, you may make a single attack with your blade. Your target is considered to be flanked for this melee attack.

Perfect Style (Ex): When making a full-attack action with a pistol and blade, you suffer no penalties as long as you have at least 1 point of grit/panache

This ability alters and replaces the Sneak Attack increase to damage gained at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Something I think to keep in mind when reading these. A single caster can do things that A party could not. As a single caster, he was able to stay invisible and bypass many things, if you had a party that just would not have been possible. He also was able to cast And Dash leaving the bad guys to reel against the effects of his spells.

And personally, I don't think anyone is calling into question the validity of what he is showing us. I think most people are merely pointing out that when you run both sides of an adventure path you can't really call it ate "playtest" it is a theirycraft because you're doing it all by yourself. I for one one find it interesting to see how the arcanist works out, but am well aware that he make some assumptions that most DM's wouldn't and that these adventure paths would play out completely different had a DM been involved or more party members

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Not to mention vanish is the worst spell to do that to.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
JRutterbush wrote:
snorter wrote:

PC has obstacle.

PC spends cash/drains item.
PC tells GM that the party is now below expected WBL.
GM increases next loot drop, to compensate.
PC has used ability for free.

That's the sort of situation you need to avoid. It should be more like:

PC has obstacle.
PC spends cash/drains item.
PC tells GM that the party is now below expected WBL.
GM tells PC that no, the party isn't behind, one PC is.
GM tells PC to use their money more wisely and learn to accept...

I would have to say that is the silliest interpretation of WBL I could conceive. "I got my gp and spent it all on potions so now I need more money." WBL is a guideline for how much a PC should have available in total when they reach a level. GM should be keeping a running total of the loot they hand out and just double check themselves at each level. So it goes more like this;

PC has obstacle.
PC spends cash/drains item.
PC tells GM that the party is now below expected WBL
GM looks at notes and says "no you aren't"
Game moves on

1)you shouldn't ever be given more loot just because you spent yours...play kingmaker and learn what loot starved truly is
2)you are not supposed to magically find X amount of gold around each level. WBL is a guideline.
3)consume items as written is not a good exploit.
4)to the person that compared trap sense to consume magic items I say "nay". Trap sense is always active and provides you a bonus in the proper situation without any cost to you and scales with your level. Consume magic item requires a standard action plus a magic item of value, and only returns a small benefit regardless of level.

Silver Crusade

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mbauers wrote:

People seem to like the "magic hacker" aspect of the arcanist, but dislike the overall effectiveness (or lack thereof) of consume items. Since there needs to be some way to recharge the arcane reservoir, what if the arcanist instead had access to either a base class feature or exploit called "Siphon Magic" or something similar. It would allow him to target a caster and drain some spell levels from them, using the stolen spell levels (and/or possibly Su/SLA uses per day) as the fuel to recharge the AR.

I know there'd have to be limits, but it might help with the whole "loot" problem. The party bard/cleric/druid might rather sacrifice some spells instead if letting the arcanist eat all if the items.

Now that could be fun, like a rogue secretly stealing loot from the party the arcanist just secretly steals magic from the party. That idea has merit as well. However I feel suppressing magic items or siphoning off their potency would be better alternatives. Keeps the theme of taking the power from the magic item without changing everything

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Biggest problem with all this is you are running and playing by yourself, you are missing on the randomness of someone else making the judgement call. And knowing stats and saves just isn't something a DM will (ok should) ever tell you. With a good knowledge check you might find out one save is a little better or worse but you should never know exact numbers. I like the idea of what you did and it is helpful info, just not sure we can call it 100% accurate since you did it all solo.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Other than dampening magic items, perhaps another way, going off that last post, would be to siphon off some of the potency of magic items as you use them. Lowering the CL by X of an item as a swift action to gain Y points for your AR. This fits the idea of a magic hacker just like suppressing permanent items temporarily would.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Probably want to post playtest results in the other forum.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

That was my and another person suggestion. You get AR points out of it and it disables the item until you put them back essentially

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The point is a class feature should not be something you use in emergencies only. Especially when that class feature is used to power another class feature. Am I saying it should be Uber powerful? No. I'm saying it should be moderately useful. As is it just isn't worth it at any level. And the staff, as already pointed out, is only good in PFS play. Otherwise all the points you get out of it have to be put back over a minimum of 10 days.

Silver Crusade

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redward wrote:
Scavion wrote:


I think the point is that its not supposed to be always a good option to consume your items.

I think you guys are missing on the whole desperation factor =P

Exactly. It's for the times when eating your Scroll of Break Enchantment is worth it so you can Disrupt the enemy's Anti-life shell and let your melee in to attack. Or whatever.

I have to completely disagree. Who would design something they don't expect you to use? The idea is you are supposed to be able to use it. The more logical assumption is that because the Arcanist revision was a rush job they made something they thought would work and tossed it to us. With time and our comments they will most likely alter it to make it more useable.

It is something you grab as an exploit, which means its one of the ways your character has learned to tinker with the normal magics of the world. It's meant to be used, it's just an infant version. With time and attention the devs will help it mature into an adult contributing member of the class. It's not an "emergency only" ability, or you wouldn't have to pick it as an exploit, it would be given like consume spells is.

Silver Crusade

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Cheapy wrote:

As an idea, limiting the points gained per day by Consumed Magic Item to your twice Charisma modifier might be a useful limit, and a huge anti-cheese factor.

People are going to find ways to top off their pool with this exploit. Limiting it to twice your Charisma times per day with would go a long way to future-proofing this class.

Or maybe Charisma mod times per day, per item type (staff/wand/potion/scroll).

The problem is consume magic item just isn't good....unless you are playing PFS and using a staff or two. The runestones, as already pointed out, can't actually be used for your AR, rather you can turn spells into points then use the stones later to cast spells. Any other item just isn't worth it from a monetary standpoint. And you can bet limiting magic items that add to the AR is high on the priority list of the devs so as to not make this class OP. Don't nerf a cool and thematic ability that isn't very good already. Not only is it very expensive, but you lose any points you don't use the next day....this ability doesn't need any more limits placed on it, it need to be retooled to be useful and worth taking.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tels wrote:

PFS will take care of itself, and will have it's own rules on how the Arcanist is played.

Balance the core mechanics of the class, and let PFS balance itself as it always has.

This

Silver Crusade

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An arcanist should have a mechanic to learn spells outside the sorcerer wizard list in a limited fashion. They are learning the inner workings of magic so why wouldn't they be able to adapt even divine spells for arcane use (although maybe at a higher level?).

The more I think about it, I think spell tinker should replace the exploits as the class ability and you can choose from a plethora of ways to adjust the magic around you. As someone just mentioned using your reservoir to modify an ally's spells as they are cast would be awesome. Or instead of counter spelling you apply magic debuffs to spells the enemy casts. Identify then lower a save DC or caster level, decrease the time it lasts, or even change the target. Stealing a healing spell the enemy casts and redirecting it to one of your allies. I think spell tinkering is what this class should do with it's arcane reservoir. I love what they have done, but remove the rather pathetic blasts and it is all tinkering with magic. This is the way to go I think.

Silver Crusade

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Scimmy wrote:

Ah so as is the arcanist is fairly powerful in PFS....however it is very much not so in regular play. I do think it should be noted how it works in PFS, but arcanist should not be nerfed because of PFS play options.

Note I did say tell us how it works, but the important part is in bold. PFS is not what we should be balancing to, because in regular play (non-PFS), unless your DM is hand waving a lot for you consume magic items is not going to work in its current for . So people talking about how powerful it is or can be in PFS are going to give the devs an incorrect view of how it works.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Robert A Matthews wrote:
Scimmy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session.

So maybe I'm missing something since I don't play PFS, but wouldn't the staff still be drained for the next scenario? Or does everything "refresh"?

Regardless, we have established that balancing to PFS is not really reasonable, and using that time in regular play wouldn't work very well because you would have to take ten days to refill it before you could drain it again. Obviously you don't have to wait the full ten days but you wouldn't get the full 10 charges from it otherwise. You can't cycle staves, and consumables are a waste of resources. Currently it is a neat concept, but fall short of what is needed to make it a playable option.

Time between PFS scenarios is undefined and you generally everything refreshes. 1/week abilities are usable again, you can teach an animal a trick or general purpose, you can retrain, etc. Since you don't just set out on your next scenario right away, you spend the next 10 days recharging your staff before your next scenario.

Ah so as is the arcanist is fairly powerful in PFS....however it is very much not so in regular play. I do think it should be noted how it works in PFS, but arcanist should not be nerfed because of PFS play options.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session.

So maybe I'm missing something since I don't play PFS, but wouldn't the staff still be drained for the next scenario? Or does everything "refresh"?

Regardless, we have established that balancing to PFS is not really reasonable, and using that time in regular play wouldn't work very well because you would have to take ten days to refill it before you could drain it again. Obviously you don't have to wait the full ten days but you wouldn't get the full 10 charges from it otherwise. You can't cycle staves, and consumables are a waste of resources. Currently it is a neat concept, but fall short of what is needed to make it a playable option.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I am in favor of a suppression mechanic. But it has to be something that costs to get the item back. Much like someone suggested earlier, you drain an item for your AR and that item becomes mundane, to be able to use (or even sell) the item later you essentially have to put the points back into the item. I also think you should be able to choose how much to pull out at a time. So instead of draining a wand for 5 charges worth at a time, maybe you are in a pinch with the a big baddie and need a boots to your AR, you should be able to pull more out, perhaps using a full-round action instead. Although to be honest, especially from an item with charges, the current consume ability should be a move action a most.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Consume Magic Items either needs to be a temporary suppression of the items abilities (possibly for a 24 hour period) that goes into a temporary pool as suggested earlier, or it needs to be a faster ability that provides more points to make it worth the standard action and giving up an item.

And no, arcanists are not over powered, they have some versatility in trade for a huge chunk of spells. And the exploits don't even make up for all you lose, you max your free points out at 11 at 20th level. The response to this is "but they can hold 60 points" to which I say sure, but they have to burn a ton of resources and don't get to keep anything not used. To be useful during an entire day of adventuring you are required to consume magic items (extremely costly and inefficient) or spell slots (a scarce commodity). If you start trying to counterspell you burn spell slots at both ends and any other spell caster can trump you through sheer numbers, assuming they haven't marked you as a target to be rid of already.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It would be nice if everyone would stop personally attacking each other and stick to the conversation at hand. To that end, I must disagree with the assertion that these classes are similar to gestalts or edging toward that power level. Even in the infant stage they are in they don't even come close to gestalt level power. They are fusions that make something new, not because they get all new material, but because they are put together using existing material in a new way. Are they perfect? No, of course they aren't, but we are only in our what third week of playtesting? Are they pretty close to balanced against the core and base classes already in existence, absolutely. There is give and take on all of them, and most actually come in a little under powered.

To reiterate, stop letting this thread degenerate into attacks agains people. If you nicely try and point something out and they argue back, ignore and move on...it is becoming a rather pathetic trend among all the ACG threads. Stick to helping these classes become better and ironing out the kinks and get away from the verbal sparing....no one cares and no one wants these spaces eaten up with it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
MrSin wrote:
Davick wrote:
Also, we're going offtopic probably.

I read that and literall laughed out loud. This thread has been off topic for almost four full pages now. Balance the class to the me bank a in place, not to an ideal. It is not more powerful than a wizard or sorcerer, it has versatility. Exploits need tweaking but this is a first draft. Oh and those complaining about not seeing exploits you want....please reread the revision post, these are a sample of exploits, not a definitive list. If you want to see an exploit in the final list just say "hey I have an idea"

On that note, "Hey, I have an idea." I would love to see an exploit (or series of them) that allow you to modify magic items on the fly. Something to allow you to heighten wands for more charges, or substitute a known spell for the wand spell. Temporarily modify the properties of magic weapons and armor, either by swapping abilities or adding abilities. Take it the other direction and make it a baleful ability, degrading the weapon or armor abilities of your enemy, causing their wands to "misfire" overload or use the wrong spell. I would love to see this class focus more on the exploits than the spells, but even as is it is an awesome class I can't wait to play.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think there should be some resevoir points retained between days. Maybe just a few, I understand the idea is the keep people from burning spells at the end of the day to top off before resetting, but losing all makes consuming magic items something I would only rarely do. Since you can only gain a few points from consuming magic items and it is a standard action to do so it's not that viable in combat and unless you know an encounter is coming out of combat is a coin toss to do it. Perhaps an exploit that allows you to retain some? Or make consuming items a swift/move action or allow them to get more out of an item quickly but reauire it be expended within a time limit. Perhaps move action for consumables or a single point, standard for half charges, or full to completely drain an item. I think encouraging the use of this ability is a good thing, and it makes them more flexible.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tels wrote:
Scimmy wrote:

Am I the only one that has noticed dimensional slide is part of a move action and only consumes 5ft of movement? Meaning you activate it and move 10ft/level, then still have 25ft you can move.

Also, the greater metamagic knowledge allows you to spend points to change your metamagic feat, however you can technically spend the points from the day before because of the wording.

Love love love the new direction and it's my number one to play now.

I had read that differently, but I see you are correct. As written, you could even spend two points (and double move) and teleport 20 ft. per level, and still have 50 ft. of movement left over.

Except you can only use the ability once per round. Still a great ability, allows you to move into a better position and still cast a spell.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Assuming I did the calculations correctly, it's 6400gp to craft a staff with a single 2nd level spell (1 charge). So with consume magic items and craft staff, it's relatively cheap to create a staff you can use to replenish up to 10 arcanist reservoir points. (Craft staff is already a great feat for an arcanist, as it helps you get around the limited number of spells you can prepare. Not at all a waste of a feat.) You can refill it with 2nd level slots at the end of the day or when you aren't adventuring. At high levels, just stuff an efficient quiver full of them. When you get magical supremacy, you get a lot of 9th level spells for basically free.

There are several things wrong with this idea. First you can only charge staves when you prepare spells. Second you can only replenish one charge in a staff a day. Finally, you can only do this on one staff any given day. 2nd level Wands would be a better investment. Craft for 2,250 gp, and can get 10 points out of each.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Am I the only one that has noticed dimensional slide is part of a move action and only consumes 5ft of movement? Meaning you activate it and move 10ft/level, then still have 25ft you can move.

Also, the greater metamagic knowledge allows you to spend points to change your metamagic feat, however you can technically spend the points from the day before because of the wording.

Love love love the new direction and it's my number one to play now.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

Oladon is wondering what the Liberation blessing's minor ability does. Specifically the emboldened part:

Quote:

Liberation (minor): At 1st level, as a swift action you

can ignore impediments to your mobility for 1 round,
as freedom of movement. You may activate this blessing
even if you’re unable to take actions, but not if you are
unconscious.
If you can't take actions, then what would activating FoM do?

More than likely this could allow you to get out of a situation that is restricting you. If it wouldn't benefit you you wouldn't activate it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

First a comment. I have lurked on the ACG forum for several days and I have noted a belligerent, argumentative, and sometimes downright mean attitude from a lot of people. If you want to complain, argue, and get angry please go elsewhere. You have all been invited to playtest, and provide feedback, so do so with tact and thanks that you are allowed to help create a new and fun product. Also, read other comments before posting, everyone is tired of reading the same question or comment over and over and over.

*steps off soapbox*

Now comment about Warpriest. I think the suggestion of allowing them full access to domain spells is a good and interesting notion. It also have precedent, the Summoner has a similar mechanic with summon spells and limited casting. This could help appease nay-sayers and provide a useful mechanic.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You also wouldn't be wielding the sword and be unable to attack with it until you returned your hand to it.