Swashbuckler Discussion

[Baroncognito]

I think that getting good will saves instead of good fort saves would be acceptable too.

That said, I agree that if you're going to have the class proficient in Bucklers, at least have them be able to use a buckler while doing precise strikes. Especially since Duelist gets Canny Defense and Swashbuckler doesn't. (Canny Defense scales faster than Nimble)

I don't know how I feel about Swashbuckler Finesse vs. just giving them Weapon Finesse. On the one hand, there are a lot of useful feats with a weapon finesse per-requisite. On the other hand, I do like the idea of a Morning Star wielding swashbuckler.

[RJGrady]

Hobgoblin swashflailer. This must happen.

[Virilitas]

After a more thorough looking over, I'd like to see them starting with Weapon Finesse at level 1, making the deeds use any light or one-handed weapon(there's not that many one handed piercing weapons! It might as well just say Rapiers), and finally of course, adding in Dex to melee damage.

Add Weapon Finesses as a 1st level bonus feat.

Ditch Bravery and instead have: Add dexterity bonus to melee damage, up to a max of the Swashbuckler class level(Or half?); Depends on whether or not this is a replacement or in addition to strength to melee damage.

And of course, change all the deeds/features to any light/one-handed weapon instead of only piercing; or at least anything finessable if that is too far.

[Gallo]

Posted in another forum, moved here to put it in the right spot....

Swashbuckler - I really like the look of it.

Some thoughts:

1. Maybe start with panache points equal to CHA mod +2, so low level Swashbucklers have a few more tricks per day - unless, as someone suggested above, there are more ways of getting points back.

2. Given Swashbucklers are famed as much for fighting as for deeds of skill and daring, I think Swashbuckler's Edge should be granted at a lower level and a more advance version at higher levels. i.e. Derring-do at 1, Swashbuckler's Edge at 8 and then at level 15 grant a deed to spend panache points to take 20 on a skill check for some heroic acrobatics and the like.

3. As Swashbucklers were also famed for their way with the opposite sex, perhaps the skill-based deeds should be expanded to include Diplomacy and Bluff when dealing with the opposite sex and maybe also Intimidate for dealing with the same sex.

4. I think they should also get Improved Dirty Trick for free. Or maybe allow the Swashbuckler to expend one panache point to get temporary access to Improved Trip/Disarm/Reposition/Dirty Trick.

[Lord_Malkov]

Just give flat dex to damage. Gunslingers get it... and that is a far more uncommon thing for a ranged build.

If you are tanking your defenses completely (swashbuckler is) then shouldn't their be some sort of offensive payoff?

I mean you can't make a direct comparison to gunslinger in terms of defense, because that is a ranged class... they aren't forced to get up into the thick of things to be effective.

You have the worst possible saving throws in the game.
You can't wear decent armor.

Precision is only helping to make up for the loss of an offhand weapon or the two hander bonuses... and it falls pretty far short or that.

And what ever happened to the parrying dagger + rapier fencer? Why is that never supported?

[Jikuu]

I have a small gripe I want to get off my chest. It's the realism aspect of Opportune Parry and Riposte. I'm not really buying into the fact that a parry and riposte takes two attacks of opportunity and two panache points. I practiced sports fencing for three years, and I'm not saying I'm a master or anything, just that I have a bit of familiarity with the subject. The most sullen kid, easily a level 1 Commoner, can parry and riposte with little effort. The mechanics may be sound, but it just seems especially unrealistic to me. Yes, even in a world of sorcery and exotic species, I have issues with "lack of realism". I'm sorry if this is a problem.

[Lord_Malkov]

Yeah, the AoO thing seems like a heavy cost.
Not for using riposte, but definitely for using parry

Its also worth noting that if the Swashbuckler uses his ability to take total defense as a swift action, he can't make AoOs, so he can't parry. Seems like a weird interaction.

[Lornis]

Really like it, but they should have acces to weapon finess at level one as a bonus feat. It will be a good start for level 1 feat, and this feat is just so linkd with the class...

[Benly]

I am extremely disappointed about the specification of living targets for Precise Strike. Didn't they fix that on the rogue precisely because it was no fun having a character whose main damage mechanic was neutralized by about half the monsters in the game?

[Baroncognito]

Gallo wrote:

3. As Swashbucklers were also famed for their way with the opposite sex, perhaps the skill-based deeds should be expanded to include Diplomacy and Bluff when dealing with the opposite sex and maybe also Intimidate for dealing with the same sex.

If you want this mechanically, just take the Charming trait. The wording on that is much better and doesn't enforce a gender binary.

Quote:

You gain a +1 trait bonus when you use Bluff or Diplomacy on a character that is (or could be) sexually attracted to you, and a +1 trait bonus to the save DC of any language-dependent spell you cast on such characters or creatures.

[LoneKnave]

Parry&Riposte should probably be merged; 1 Panache for Parrying and then 1 AoO for Riposting. As it is, the cost is way too high.

[BangoShank]

After doing some tinkering with various builds, reading through the class abilities, and listening in on the discussion here, I have to say (for whatever it is worth) my 2 copper on the Swashbuckler.

I personally like the class, but then I've always enjoyed the Errol Flynn characters. I can certainly see the influence in design and understand what the class is intended to portray. That said, there are some very legitimate criticisms on the forums that I think are pretty easy to fix. Note that these have not been balanced tested in the slightest (need my math friends for that come our usual game day):

1. Give them the Weapon Finesse feat at first level.
I know the thought process here was to avoid a single level dip class that people jump into for the feat, the saves, and the BAB bump. The truth is that the class is designed both mechanically and ideologically around a finesse fighter. It's about quick movements and sharp reflexes, and the fact that you don't have that until second level severely hampers not only the effectiveness of the class but also the flavor.

2. Give them a greater version of Weapon Finesse later on in the class that allows finesse with any one-handed piercing or slashing weapon.
Weapon finesse alone a Dex fighter does not make. A lot of people have already gotten excited about the idea of using normally non-finesse weapons with the wording of Swashbuckler Finesse. Others have commented on the absurdity of only using piercing weapons given the inspiration for the class. Simply giving a class weapon finesse for any one-handed weapon early on is far too powerful, but breaking it up into a later class ability encourages people to stick around in the class instead of dipping a level and vanishing. Thematically it makes a certain level of sense, you start off with the typical finesse weapons because they are designed for it and it comes easy, but as your improving skill and dexterity grow you find the skill to apply your quick reflexes and moves with normally unwieldy weapons suck as longswords.

3. Change Precise Strike into Dexterity or Charisma to damage.
As stated earlier, this class feels more like Fighter/Gunslinger/Duelist. I would go farther and remove Fighter from that equation, but it's a proper illustration. Two of Duelist's most prominent class abilities (parry and precise strike) are in Swashbuckler. I know that there is a significant de-emphasis on prestige classes across the system, but that doesn't mean making them completely superfluous. By making it Dexterity or Charisma to damage and basically an exact replica of the Gunslinger 'Gun Training' we give back one of the Duelist's core features and get the class closer to its hybrid design while keeping the same core feeling and mechanics. This also helps tie the class back into its overall theme rather than just being an arbitrary damage source with no flavor and no tie to any other part of the class.

4. Fix Bravery/Saves
This is the hardest one to nail down. Because there is no middle progression for saves anymore there isn't a way to approach this in a method that doesn't send people to the class for only a level or two at a time. You can simply boost Fort or Will to match Ref as a good save, but then you make the class top heavy and prime material for dipping rather than staying. My first instinct is to fix bravery. Bravery is a pathetic ability, for fighters and swashbucklers alike. When given to a class that already has a bad Will save, the small circumstantial boost is worth very little in the long run. Fear effects are such a niche grouping of effects that target will that there will be a staggering number of cases in which that minuscule bonus given by Bravery will be either not enough or completely useless. It takes six levels to get +2 against fear. At that point a Heroic NPC has enough money (according to wealth by level) to buy a cloak of resistance +2, which is a flat bonus to ALL saves. The most basic solution I have is to make bravery a flat bonus to Will saves, but if that is too powerful or outside the realm of what the ability should do then simply make it a bonus to Will against all Mind-Effecting abilities and effects. This would include fear effects but also allow for a much greater and more effective range of defenses.

Once my group and I do a true mechanical test of the class on a table I'm sure there will be other things that come up, but from what I can tell from reading here and what I've personally thought up these are the biggest sticking points. Anyone else agree or disagree with what I've come up with?

[LoneKnave]

A good fix for bravery would be something along the lines of the following:

Bravado:A swashbuckler's confidence and flair let's him resist the effect of spells better. He gains a bonus on Will saves equal to his CHA modifier.

[Gallo]

Baroncognito wrote:

Gallo wrote:

3. As Swashbucklers were also famed for their way with the opposite sex, perhaps the skill-based deeds should be expanded to include Diplomacy and Bluff when dealing with the opposite sex and maybe also Intimidate for dealing with the same sex.

If you want this mechanically, just take the Charming trait. The wording on that is much better and doesn't enforce a gender binary.

Quote:

You gain a +1 trait bonus when you use Bluff or Diplomacy on a character that is (or could be) sexually attracted to you, and a +1 trait bonus to the save DC of any language-dependent spell you cast on such characters or creatures.

But anyone can take that Trait. My image of Swashbucklers is charm and wit on steroids.

[ATyger]

Swashbuckler is great, except that swashbuckler finesse doesn't count as weapon finesse for feat prerequisites. (Though I imagine that this was an oversight and will be fixed during play testing.) [I can hope right?]

Bravery needs to be removed completely and replaced with a good save in either reflex or will.

And, my biggest issue is that the class gives you access to bucklers (great!) but your best damage modifier (precise strike) doesn't work if you use one. This needs to be modified to be usable with bucklers.

[Feral]

Precise Strike seems horrifically overpowered.

Am I reading this right? Level to damage for all attacks and double level to damage with a swift?

[Googleshng]

I'm not a fan of dropping precise strike for dex-to-damage. It really needs to have both going on. A quick side by side comparison:

A fighter is a pretty simple guy. You pick a fighting style you like, you hit harder than anyone else consistently can all day long, and you're damn hard to kill between AC and HP.

All of that still holds true for the swashbuckler. They don't have any spells, or skill monkey-ing, or weird power selections on the side. They're just a fighter variation with a fun theme, that does pretty much the same thing in pretty much the same way. They should be pretty similar in their ability to take a hit (same HP, fighter wins out on AC, but that's fine because full plate cartwheels are their One Really Unique Thing). They should have similar damage output to. A fighter's damage output depends on a few things, but let's look at a real simple meat and potatos approach- A big ol' 2 handed weapon, and power attack.

The main stat this fighter needs is Str. It's how he hits, it's how he does damage, it's what he's pumping through the roof.

After that, he needs con. More HP.

After that, in my book, comes having at least 13 int. Hard to avoid hitting it as a feat requirement somewhere, and it's hard to play with that few skills.

Then come dex and wis. You can wear platemail and still move 30' so your AC is fine, bows aren't your thing but you have enough raw BAB and proficiency you can use them, and you have spare weapon groups and feats to shore that up if you really want. Pretty much just taking these for saves.

Finally, cha is a total dump stat.

Now with the hypothetical swashbuckler, dex is your main stat. You hit with it, it's how you do damage. It's also helping your AC, but that's just staying competitive with the fighter, and hitting with ranged weapons, but they're less viable for you since you're never grabbing a composite longbow and none of your class stuff really plays very well with ranged attacks.

After that comes cha, which powers your panache, and intimidation, and really, just roleplaying wise the class concept calls for keeping it up there.

Then comes con, at about the same priority as the fighter. It's now shoring up a lower save, but reflex is good, so it balances out roughly.

That 13 int is still just as important... maybe a little more actually, because those feats you need it for are all the clever little dodger ones, I can't see building this class without using those.

Strength is now also floating in this not a priority priory, but it has to be a positive modifier land. Carrying capacity is a hard limit, and strength based skills are a pretty vital bit of the class, which you can't coast by on just modifiers too. You can pump skill points into them, but then you need more than a 13 int to find the points.

Wis still here for saves.

We're still in comparable territory even if all we're using str for is carrying and climbing, because cha got a big demand place on it, and while it's iffy, int and con are needed just a little more than before. There's no danger of making this an obvious min-maxing thing.

So getting back to that damage thing. Weapon training, BAB, and primary stat all pretty much cancel out... except for that primary stat. Strength is +1.5 on the two hander, with just one hand and no offhand weapon, we're getting +1 with our dex. That adds up a little when you really push str up. Call it an 18 to start, that's an extra +2 right there. Pile on another 8 str as you level between a belt and stat bonuses, that's +2 more. Power attack? Same applies. +1 more to start us off, +1 more every 4 levels. Arguably the swashbuckler is going to power attack less often to keep his attack bonus intact for parrying, but I'm not going to factor that in.

It's a slow-building edge difference. You start off a bit better than the flat level bonus from Precise Strike, so it's going to be overtaken somewhere down the line, but it takes a while, and the two-handing damage is a little more versatile. There's no point pool to tap out and temporarily turn it off, it multiplies off crits, and lance charges, plays nice with a greater variety of weapons... and all those weapons do more base damage. So that's another couple points to the starting edge. Plus Precise Strike does no damage at all to a couple creature types, while fighter damage is evergreen.

So yeah. I want to see dex based damage on top of keeping precise strike as is. Keeps both classes on even footing as they cover all of the same territory, in similar but thematically varied ways.

[Westley Roberts]

Thoughts so far –

Great class, but the bad saves will probably make it squishy, especially at high levels.

1. I think the swashbuckler needs something to make up for its bad saves – maybe Charisma to saves like Divine Grace, or an ability to spend panache points to add Charisma to saves. This could replace the worthless Bravery.

2. The weapon choice needs to be expanded – the current selection is bizarre – a swashbuckler can wield a Heavy Pick, Morning Star or Taiaha, but not an Aldori Duelling Sword.

I would like to see the Swashbuckler able to use all light weapons, one handed weapons and all weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse. (Including the Elven Curve Blade – this would give this weapon a niche.)

3. Precise strike needs to lose its many restrictions – I don’t know why it is also precision damage, as the Precise Strike of the Duellist is not.

4. I would like to see Dexterity to damage or maybe Charisma to damage instead of Strength to damage as a class feature. If it is Charisma to damage there needs to be wording to prevent stacking with current methods of Dexterity to damage. As it currently stands many Swashbucklers will end up with Dervish Dance or Agile Weapons.

5. Opportune Parry and Riposte probably should be broken up and spread out –Parry at level 1, and Riposte at level 3. Also, Opportune Parry is really bad for small Swashbucklers – I think this should maybe be a -4 for every size larger than medium, or dropped entirely. Giving Opportune Parry and Riposte at level 1 means you have a feat tax of combat reflexes at level 1.

6. Swashbuckler Finesse should function as Weapon Finesse for prerequisites and be given at level 1. It could be broken up so that +4 bonuses come in at level 2.

As it currently stands Weapon Finesse is a pre-requisite for Dervish Dance and Piranha Strike which will both be popular feats for the Swashbuckler. This means half of Swashbuckler Finesse is useless to many builds.

7. I think Evasive should be also broken up, rather than all given in one go at level 11.

8. Pommel Strike – How does this work? Does it count as a trip attack? Does it provoke an attack of opportunity?

[Westley Roberts]

BangoShank wrote:

1. Give them the Weapon Finesse feat at first level.

I agree.

BangoShank wrote:

2. Give them a greater version of Weapon Finesse later on in the class that allows finesse with any one-handed piercing or slashing weapon.

I agree. Sounds fun and would make the class unique.

BangoShank wrote:

3. Change Precise Strike into Dexterity or Charisma to damage.

Not sure on this one. Does it need both?

BangoShank wrote:

4. Fix Bravery/Saves

I Strongly agree.

[ATyger]

Feral wrote:

Precise Strike seems horrifically overpowered.

Am I reading this right? Level to damage for all attacks and double level to damage with a swift?

As long as you have 1 panache in your pool, you are not using your off-hand weapon to also attack, and you're not using a shield. And recognize that using your swift action to double precise strike costs you a panache point. If this is your last point, you now no longer qualify for precise strike until you regain another panache point.

[ATyger]

They need to replace Bravery with a Divine Grace restring, call it Debonair, to promote its relationship to charisma. And add dex damage to all attack ala Gunslinger, as long as they're using piercing 1-handed or light weapons. And the weapon finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level, maybe amend swashbuckler finesse to light, 1-handed slashing, and 1-handed piercing weapons at another level.

[Volvogg]

Westley Roberts wrote:

...

2. The weapon choice needs to be expanded – the current selection is bizarre – a swashbuckler can wield a Heavy Pick, Morning Star or Taiaha, but not an Aldori Duelling Sword.

I would like to see the Swashbuckler able to use all light weapons, one handed weapons and all weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse. (Including the Elven Curve Blade – this would give this weapon a niche.)

...

+1

[Grey Lensman]

I'd remove precision, change it to either dex or cha to damage (with a cap equal to level) and add support for the classic rapier/daggar and sword/buckler styles. The big thing people don't seem to get about fencing is that the off-hand is supposed to be doing something, swatting the sword away, or holding something to defend yourself with (and possibly attack!).

[Maxximilius]

I'd like to expand on my first post.

- I like Precise Strike. Avoiding the whole "dex-to-damage" was in my opinion a clever choice, and in return you get a nifty bonus to damage. The fact this is precision damage that will not work on a good half of the bestiary is a letdown though. If you don't want the class to become a dip paradise abused by feat combos, I would even go as far as to suggest this bonus does not stack with any ability that allows you to add your Str or Dex bonus to damage, but half of this bonus damage is normal damage which can be multiplied on a crit.

Yes, this means the swashbuckler wouldn't effectively need any Str... which isn't an issue when you consider the wizard doesn't need Charisma or Strength at all either. You would still use Dex to hit, skills and AC.

- As of now the swashbuckler is really feat starved. Let's be honest : you NEED Weapon Finesse at 1st level plus Combat Reflexes just to use your most iconic deed. In that case, we may as well receive them early on or reduce the cost of parrying/counterattacking (maybe in a single AoO ?). I was thinking about rolling a halfling swashbuckler using the ARG feats to focus on fighting defensively... but the build suffers way too much from this starvation to be effective in combat at lower levels, which is a shame for a class whose whole trope and description insists on swashbuckler fighting defensively against bigger brutes.

- Please, PLEASE find some way for swashbucklers in the final version to not get pigeonholed in Dervish Dancing. This feat already ruins all versatility in the magus, since it's not going to die, it may at well not contaminate all swashbucklers ever. See the "don't stack with precise strike" as said previously.

- (I'll have to verify this one when I have access to the pdf at home) The targeting deed is much less potent than a gunslinger's, whose deed already has limited utility. As a full-round action, you must hit normal AC in melee while the gunslinger does that at range against Touch AC.

In addition to these arguments which have already been covered by others, here is a quick recap of current potential issues noticed by other people on this thread :

- Only good save is Reflexes
- Weird weapon choice
- Doesn't really get Finesse and even then, too late
- Bravery : please, just no. Cha to Will maybe ?

[BigNorseWolf]

I also have to say I absolutely hate quasi giving of feats. Its weapon finesse (possibly with an expanded list) or its not. The "its kinda like this" mechanic is too much of a gray area for a lot of things.

[Grey Lensman]

Maxximilius wrote:

- Please, PLEASE find some way for swashbucklers in the final version to not get pigeonholed in Dervish Dancing. This feat already ruins all versatility in the magus, since it's not going to die, it may at well not contaminate all swashbucklers ever. See the "don't stack with precise strike" as said previously.

The only way to do that is to introduce a feat for not-scimitars that is as good as Dervish Dance. Dervish Dance has been published and will not go away, but the result has become that the most iconic fencing weapon of them all is a very distant second place because of it.

[DM_aka_Dudemeister]

I would like to see the Swashbuckler regain Panache by making a pun, joke or insult along with their attack, if it makes the table laugh they get the Panache back.

Perhaps as an optional rule (in the same way the Gunslinger got Daring Deeds in a side-bar as a way to recharge grit).

[JiCi]

I see a bunch of problems:
1- "Alternate Classes: Fighter and gunslinger"... why Gunslinger if NOTHING is related to firearms? This class just screams "pirate", and most pirates carry firearms. I don't care how much people hate firearms in PF, make it part of the class, not to mention that you could open a LOT of options for dual-wielding a rapier and pistol. Dude, make it usable with a hand crossbow if you must avoid firearms hate.

2- The book's gonna have new weapons... right? Because I have yet to see the bastard sword version of a deadly Piercing weapon. No seriously, aside from the rapier and trident, it's kinda of a letdown when it comes to weapon selection. Here's a idea:
* Take the Nodachi from Ultimate Combat.
* Make it an Exotic One-Handed weapon, from being a Martial Two-Handed weapon
* Make it deal Bludgeoning and Piercing damage, instead of Slashing and Piercing
* Rename it an Estoc

NOW I have a decent tool to fight with.

3- I'd swap the costs for Stunning Stab and Deadly Stab. I mean, stunning is less dangerous than outright killing, so...

4- I had this problem with the Gunslinger as well. How about increasing the Panache point pool by 1 per 4 levels instead of fixing it to JUST the Charisma modifier?

[rayous brightblade]

The bonus feat section says a new feat at 4 and EVERY even level after. The chart shows 1 every 4. Text usually trumps chart but I hope that is not the case here. 9 bonus feats on top of everything else is too much.

Also, I agree that Swashbucker Finesse should be level 1. Perhaps put it there and drop the riposte to level 2? Heck, we could rejigger the panache so that you get them more spread out instead of at big clumps at 1/3/7/11/15/19. Perhaps something like menacing swordplay at 4, Pommel Swipe at 6, Targeted Strike at 8. Its nice to get a cool thing each time you level.

[Herald]

Just a word on Robin Hood/Errol Flynn Movies. The concept of Fighting with broadswords (and I use that term as I would from the stunt person's lexicon, we can start a whole thread on sword names latter) in the style that was used in those movies was at best wrong. Mostly because no one really had been doing that style of fighting in a long, long time.

What was still being taught though was sabre style fighting in many military and boarding schools. For the sake of movies it was very cinematic, and allowed broad sweeps for safety sake.

Since we really don't have a "sabre" (sawtooth sabre I rebuke you)in the game, the scimitar does a close enough reskin if you ask my opinion.

Broadsword and buckler was a very proper dueling style (and has an English tradition, but I'm sure it extends to other cultures too. So I'm inclined to see it used here as well. The fight style however is far from the sabre style and it is certainly more gritty and far from foppish.

It seems to me that rather than try and piecemeal what works and what doesn't work, can't we just have a swashbuckler weapon list?

Oh and if this class doesn't receive a Cayden Cailean PRC or Archtype, I'm taking my rapier and going home.

[RJGrady]

I want to be able to do Prince of Persia.

[master_marshmallow]

The feat deprivation really makes me want it to be able to multiclass fighter, but if you're gonna multiclass fighter when this class is supposed to be part fighter... it just needs more feats. At least a bonus combat feat at lvl 1. AT LEAST that. Giving them Weapon Finesse would suffice. Swashbuckler's Finesse then let's them use any one handed weapon with finesse.

Why cap [ability] to damage at your level? If I am taking a 3 level dip just to switch an attribute on my damage rolls, and doing it in a class that requires a good CHA on top of that then it should balance itself.

Precise strike needs to go, level to damage is a duelist thing, and if they want it, let them take the duelist class. I would rather see DEX to damage, and not only under certain circumstances.

Good Will saves, and CHA to saves as an EX would make this class really strong, but if it gets done there needs to be language that prevents it from stacking with Divine Grace otherwise you open the door to saving throw monsters like the paladin of slaughter/hexblade/blackguards of 3.x.

[pluvia33]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread yet, but I wanted to give my first impression of the swashbuckler since it was one of the classes I was looking forward to most. I like the idea of a swashbuckler being a mix between the fighter and gunslinger. I felt that it could be the best Dex based melee fighting class in the game. But a few things didn't quite meet my expectation. Sorry if some or most of these things have already been touched on.

The first issue I had is the weapons the class uses. There are a few exotic weapons that I feel really fit the flavor and style of the class: Whip, Bolas, and Net. It'd be nice if the swashbuckler got proficiency in these weapons. And that brings me to the fact that I really don't like how the class is pigeonholed into using light or one-handed piercing weapons for most of its abilities. Being restricted to light and one-handed weapons I can totally see, but always having to use piercing weapons doesn't really fit with me. Picturing a swashbuckler in my mind, I can see him slashing about with a scimitar style sword or bopping someone on the head with a sap or blunt improvised weapon.

Panache is about what I expected. Although I wasn't a big fan of the Grit/Deed mechanic when it first came out do to its "everyone gets the same stuff" nature, it grew on me and it gives room for 3PP to "fix" it. Again, my main issue with these would be that you have to be wielding a piercing weapon to use a lot of the abilities.

I agree with the few posts that I did read that Weapon Finesse should just be given (the real feat) at first level. The rest of the Swashbuckler Finesse ability is fine at second level, just calling it Sure Handed (Ex) or something and get rid of the piercing requirement.

Then there is the Swashbuckler Weapon Training. I was really hoping there would be something like Gun Training for melee weapons. Something like this:

Signature Weapon (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a swashbuckler can select a specific type of light or one-handed melee weapon. She may use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on damage rolls when using this weapon. Furthermore, she gains the benefit of Improved Critical feat when wielding weapons of this type.

Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the swashbuckler picks another type of weapon, gaining these bonuses to that type as well. She also gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with each weapon she previously selected for this ability.

Only other comment I have is that it would have been nice to have a Dirty Trick special ability for the class. Maybe as a Deed that lets it get them off faster and easier. I look forward to seeing how this and the other classes evolve.

[RJGrady]

I'd be reluctant to give away Improved Critical for free, when the rapier already has such a generous range. +2 to confirm critical hits would be more fair as well as potentially more powerful.

[master_marshmallow]

RJGrady wrote:

I'd be reluctant to give away Improved Critical for free, when the rapier already has such a generous range. +2 to confirm critical hits would be more fair as well as potentially more powerful.

Is that in response to a suggestion, or are you pointing out that they get it for free?

[RJGrady]

I was replying to the post directly above mine.

[Helaman]

I've played a session with the class (still at level 1) and have a few thoughts.

1/ Skills and Skill selection = Good. It will not be able to compete with the Oracle or Paladin for party face but can work respectably in its own right.

2/ Saves should be Fort and Reflex or failing that? Leave it at Fort - this is all but guarenteed to be a dex warrior anyways. Making reflex the sole save is just a hat on a hat.

3/ Wording on weapon selection needs to be cleaned up in regards to light and one handed piercing weapon (does the light need to be a piercing weapon?) and the Aldori sword - is there room to add additional blade options? I think so.

4/ Dex to Damage - Yes. Gunslinger gets it - this one needs it too.

5/ Parry - No, haven't played with it but damn its a good solid incentive to go crane style builds.

Now I am gonna go with something a bit strange - No to the weapon finesse at level 1. It front loads the class too much, and makes it way too attractive as a single level dip. I have major issues with the front loading of the warpriest for just this reason.

Instead offer a choice - At level 2, weapon finesse (and please, just make it the feat and not some wierd alternative) OR, if the player has it already, Combat Expertise (without the Int pre-req) or something similar.

[DarkenedRurouni]

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet. But why does Precise Strike not have wording to keep the Signature Deed feat from applying to it yet? Spend one panache as a swift action to double the precise strike damage on your next attack, or take a feat at 3rd to instantly make it a swift action to double your damage as long as you still have panache.

[master_marshmallow]

DarkenedRurouni wrote:

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet. But why does Precise Strike not have wording to keep the Signature Deed feat from applying to it yet? Spend one panache as a swift action to double the precise strike damage on your next attack, or take a feat at 3rd to instantly make it a swift action to double your damage as long as you still have panache.

That's what we pay you for.

[Jiggy]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in the last four pages, but why does Precise Strike talk about "living creatures with discernable anatomies"? We've come so far in opening up precision damage to most creatures; why does this one ability revert back to 3.5's version of precision damage instead of matching how every other type of precision damage in Pathfinder works?

[GreySector]

Tels wrote:

Further, if they, at some point, purchase a Rod of Balance, they can bump their AC from Fighting Defensively by another +2 bonus, for a grand total of -2/+6 or -1/+6. That is well worth the benefit.

FYI you can't use both a rod of balance and the Crane Wing or Crane Riposte feats.

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

The individual holding the rod also gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 bonus.

Ultimate Combat wrote:

Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action...

[GreySector]

Tels wrote:

Ignore the typos, focus on the mechanics. The typos will be caught in the actual editing process. Unless the typos and grammar cause ambiguity in the rules, don't bother with them.

That's not what the playtest is for.

I disagree. We should find as many of these errors as possible. The more that we find and fix now the better the finished product will be.

[Akerlof]

Jiggy wrote:

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in the last four pages, but why does Precise Strike talk about "living creatures with discernable anatomies"? We've come so far in opening up precision damage to most creatures; why does this one ability revert back to 3.5's version of precision damage instead of matching how every other type of precision damage in Pathfinder works?

Consensus is that it's copy paste from the Duelist version.

[GreySector]

DarkenedRurouni wrote:

I don't think I've seen anyone mention this yet. But why does Precise Strike not have wording to keep the Signature Deed feat from applying to it yet? Spend one panache as a swift action to double the precise strike damage on your next attack, or take a feat at 3rd to instantly make it a swift action to double your damage as long as you still have panache.

The deed seems written with the Signature Deed feat in mind. It only works if you have one point of panache, but costs one point of panache to use. There would be no reason to require at least one point of panache if they weren't anticipating that the deed would at some point cost 0 panache.

[GreySector]

CRobledo wrote:

1. Expanding a bit on Maxx's second point, I feel the same in that regard. Not only do they have to wait until second level, but ALSO its not the real feat either. So a Swashbuckler doesn't qualify for either Piranha Strike or Dervish Dance, both of which would be right up their alley as possible ways to increase their damage.

Don't forget that Piranha strike only works with light weapons, not with finesseable weapons (so it doesn't work with rapiers which are one-handed weapons).

[Wolfwaker]

What a fun class! I love the concept!

Maxximilius wrote:

- The cumulative -4 penalty to the Parry deed is pretty harsh on Small characters. I'd love to play a halfling swashbuckler who punishes naysayers with sheer acrobatic awesomeness to prove size doesn't matter, or even a kobold or goblin, but this is a hard blow when you get slammed in the face with this penalty right there. I'd love to see a David-vs-Goliath, small-sized-friendly archetype that's less about mobility and 5-foot steps as per the Recovery deed, and more about dodging/standing grounds/fighting defensively against bid baddies to parry/counterattack without sucking a humongous penalty (... unless it comes with other mechanical advantages against bigger monsters, of course, but in the same fashion, I would hope said archetype doesn't shoe-horn the swashbuckler into slaying giants while all you want as a player is to be able to contribute against the most common giants in everyone's campaigns, aka medium/sometimes large humanoids).

I just want to echo this. The class flavor seems perfect for playing a small maneuverable character who does precision damage and is good at avoiding hits. It makes sense a small character won't be so good at parrying but I'd love to see an archetype that lets them be effective in melee.

Flavor-wise, I'd love to see the ability to use slashing weapons too.

[master_marshmallow]

greysector wrote:

CRobledo wrote:

1. Expanding a bit on Maxx's second point, I feel the same in that regard. Not only do they have to wait until second level, but ALSO its not the real feat either. So a Swashbuckler doesn't qualify for either Piranha Strike or Dervish Dance, both of which would be right up their alley as possible ways to increase their damage.

Don't forget that Piranha strike only works with light weapons, not with finesseable weapons (so it doesn't work with rapiers which are one-handed weapons).

Lump that in with the swashbuckler's swashbucklyness?

[CRobledo]

greysector wrote:

Don't forget that Piranha strike only works with light weapons, not with finesseable weapons (so it doesn't work with rapiers which are one-handed weapons).

Oh I know, but it may be a viable option for players looking for a PA option without 13 STR.

[Matthew Morris]

RJGrady wrote:

If it can't do Swordlord swashbuckler, buckler-and-shortsword swashbuckler, rapier-and-dagger swashbuckler, and cutlass swashbuckler, it needs more time in the oven.

Add falcata and buckler...

"How did Qaderia get so rich?"

"Selling scimitars to all our Taldan magi and swashbucklers, sir."

[Jiggy]

Akerlof wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned in the last four pages, but why does Precise Strike talk about "living creatures with discernable anatomies"? We've come so far in opening up precision damage to most creatures; why does this one ability revert back to 3.5's version of precision damage instead of matching how every other type of precision damage in Pathfinder works?

Consensus is that it's copy paste from the Duelist version.

Huh. Never noticed that in the Duelist before.

Well, clearly BOTH need to be changed! ;)