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I think that the best reason to avoid an immediate action is that it will give yet another reason to go Strength instead of Dex.Correct!
at that point I'm making a strength swashbuckler, like whats the point!
Yes indeed. Running a Dex-based swashbuckler through Rise of the Runelords now, and the only thing that's making me okay with having put points in Dex instead of Strength is that at least I can use parry/riposte with my Combat Reflexes, and I can attempt to parry multiple attacks a round if I have to. I paid through the nose for that Charisma 15 and Dex 17, and right now, parry/riposte via AoOs are all I'm getting for it. My to-hit is terrible and my damage not much better - without the benefits a high Dex gives Combat Reflexes, I have zero reason to not just scrap the character and start over.
Two observations to make, real quick.
1) I notice that some of the people saying 'it's fine' (MechE I think? Someone else I can't recall...) are playtesting with 20/25pt characters.
I think this alleviates some of the pain with the MADness, so maybe you're not getting an accurate picture of how the class plays at the point it's supposed to be balanced towards. (Unless I'm mistaken about them being supposed to be balanced around a 15pt buy stat array?)
2) In a weird kind of way, my playtest reminded me of playing Deus Ex:Human Revolution.
Panache works like the energy cells there. It's only really worth buying the extra if you've got spare resources to burn, and even then you're not going to make much use of your higher capacity. Though in this case your baseline should be 2, rather than 1.
I found that it basically never got used for Derring-Do, never even tried a parry with it (because seriously... burn my extra-damage resource against an attack that might not hit anyway, and then if it does, might fail to parry? What a terrible idea). It was spent down to the minimum in the pool to keep precise strikes going. Any extra was spent on getting double-damage precise strikes out of the gate, and any extra gained through crits/kills was spent on double-damage precise strikes straight away -as Rogue Eidolon pointed out before, so long as you've got a capacity of more than 1, it effectively is doubled on a crit- so sitting on a full panache pool when you're rolling an attack is potentially wasting damage.
Now, I should get around to writing up my playtest. I feel like I owe it to some people here (Rogue most of all), but... after playtesting the swashbuckler, I really don't feel motivated to. I don't feel motivated to care about the class. The play experience was massively underwhelming, and it's soured me on the book.
(SRM's reply on the parry/riposte problem just pushes that more. I know it probably wasn't supposed to, but it kinda came across as 'we're going to tinker with this, but don't get your hopes up; you're still not allowed nice things!')
The class mechanics don't work towards the class fluff. I can get a better result for that type of character with a 2 level MoMS dip to complete Crane, then fighter to Duelist. And making the type of character that does work with the mechanics... I might as well make a Fighter and do it properly. With extra feats and a non-sucky Fortitude, to boot!
So yeah, feeling a little bummed, like that was a massive waste of time, and this post was a massive waste of time. Sorry for rambling.
@Throne: Regarding 20 point buy, you kind of have a point, but 15 points is just bleh. I don't get why it's the standard. I've tallied up random rolls before, and 4d6b3 is about 19.5, IIRC. 20 gives you leg room without giving too much power. That's why I'm a huge advocate, and I guess yes, it does help out the MAD classes more than the SAD ones.
Edit: This has made me realize that CHA is the weak link, here. It gets you panache, but so will Extra Grit. I wonder if it can be mostly ignored, 12 CHA plus Extra Grit. Down 1 feat, but saves you 8 build points.
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As someone who has played as a swash and played against a swash I thought I would put my 2cp in. Most of my big concerns about the class have been gone over(Poor fort save, needing feats to use class features, poor mobility, ect)I personally liked the idea of giving the swashbuckler a combat style kind of like the ranger and feel that precise strike's wording to be better inclusive (while using his main hand to attack) rather then exclusive (cannot attack with a weapon in his other
hand). It would nip a lot of cheese (armor spikes, having more then two arms, and the like) in the bud, and the possibilities of extra attacks that deal 1/2 str damage with the option to take a feat to double it does not seem that bad.
My big problem however is actually targeted strikes, I don't like this in the gunslinger and I like it even less here. You spend a panache and a full round action to bypass the CMD rules. As I was playing a free hand fighter who's CMD against disarm was over twenty points higher(favored class, disarm feats, class feature) then his AC. after investing that many resources it felt very unfair that the swashbuckler was able to just ignore all of it by spending a full round action and a panache point. I also don't like subtle blade for similar reasons, and would much rather see it grant a sizable bonus against those maneuvers.
@Throne: Regarding 20 point buy, you kind of have a point, but 15 points is just bleh. I don't get why it's the standard. I've tallied up random rolls before, and 4d6b3 is about 19.5, IIRC. 20 gives you leg room without giving too much power. That's why I'm a huge advocate, and I guess yes, it does help out the MAD classes more than the SAD ones.
I'll give you a hint - it's the same reason that Arcanist isn't getting nerfed but Brawler is.
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Just looking over the Swashbuckler's Parry/Riposte problem again and another solution presents itself to me.
Riposte: As long as the Swashbuckler has one Panache remaining in her pool, any time a foe rolls a natural 1 on an attack it provokes an attack of opportunity.
Parry: Spend a panache, and any attack that an opponent misses provokes attacks of opportunity until the beginning of your next turn.
Again this makes Combat Reflexes an option rather than a mandatory requirement. It also fits with how grit/panache work: A minor bonus if you have a point in reserve and a major bonus if you spend a point.
Also a question:
Can a swashbuckler take amateur gunsmith? Since panache and grit count as the same thing?
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Reynard De'Bonaire- Kitsune bucklebarder
Str-5
Dex-17
con-14
int-12
wis-14
Cha-16
Traits: Blade of mercy Muscle of the society
This is a PFS character, and my SOP with DM credit is to say pbthtthths to first level.
1st: Swashbuckler 1 Extra Panache
2nd: Dawnflower Dervish Dancing Bard 1
3rd: Swashbuckler 2 Combat reflexes
4th: Swashbuckler 3
5th: Swashbuckler 4 Weapon focus scimitar(bonus)/Weapon specialization Scimitar
Kitsunes were made to buckle swashes. Dex, Cha, medium size to avoid the riposte penalty, and they have a bite as icing on the cake. Since bite is a PBS weapon you can use weapon finesse with it and crit fish with it on full attacks.
Dawnflower dervish effectively gets you two feats (dervish dance and the otherwise redundant weapon finesse you would need to get dervish dance) on top of that you shore up the characters bad will save , and get. The only time i'm kicking myself for doing this is 5th level, right before getting level to damage. I'm missing 1 to attack, which I make up with weapon focus, which i otherwise wouldn't have.
with 5 penache i can parry/riposte twice and still keep one in the pool in between crits.
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*Ding* As I continue to play my swashbuckler, I just realized what this feels like. This feels like playing a prestige class. Its not nearly as powerful as the classes you can start off with, but has great flavor. Thats exactly what this feels like right now. Like a prestige class, you have to compensate for its weaknesses by choosing what to dip with. Anyhow I finally found a build, through dipping, that I feel ok with. I have some survival. I have the swashbuckling flavor. The only restriction is that you have to play up the flavor of a follower of Sarene as part of the core. But thats ok, my guy was originally.
Anyhow so if I had to plan a character from scratch again for a PFS game:
Race: Human
Starting Stats:
Str: 13
Dex: 18 (16+2Hhuman)
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 15
Level 01: Swashbuckler 1: Feat: Combat Reflexes Human Bonus Feat: Power Attack
Level 02: Bard (Dervish of Dawn) 1: Class Feat: Dervish Dance
Level 03: Swashbuckler 2: Feat: Furious Focus
Level 04: Swashbuckler 3: Deeds, Nimble +1
Level 05: Feat: Weapon Focus: Paladin (Divine Hunter) 1: gain Precise Shot
Level 06: Paladin (Divine Hunter) 2: gain: Divine Grace
Level 07: Swashbuckler 4: Feat: Vital Strike Bonus Feat: (Your Choice: Recommend Agile Maneuvers)
Level 08: Swashbuckler 5: Swashbuckler weapon training +1
Level 09: Swashbuckler 6: Bravery +2 Feat: Critical Focus
Level 10: Swashbuckler 7: Deeds, nimble +2
Level 11: Swashbuckler 8: Feat: Signature Deed (Parry) Bonus Feat: Vital Strike, Improved
Level 12: Swashbuckler 9: Swashbuckler weapon training +2
So pretty much from Lvl 7 onward, I have setup my character to be in a good position for the rest of the game. The added bonuses from dipping for saves is going to help tremendously and divine grace is going to help a lot. If I was to play this in an adventure path, I would probably stay straight through to the end now as a Swashbuckler. My focus would be on capitalizing my criticals.
I do lose some swashbuckler damage from dipping, however it is more than made up with the addition of dervish dance. So my damage, without items or stat additions, would look something like at lvl 12: 3d6(scimitar)+4(Dervish Dance)+8(Power Attack)+9(Precise)+2(S.Weapon Training). Which really isn't to bad, not great but its more than ok. Also my crit range is 15-20.
Overall this isn't going to be half bad with all the dipping. I really wish I wasn't put into a spot for dipping, because it limits my roleplay option with this character; but I am ok. This character isn't going to be the best but he isn't going to be halfbad. I like it.
Oh and my tactics for Lvl 12 would be something like:
Walk through a threatening square: parry(free)/riposte w/ bonuses from vital strike/powerattack/precise. Stop after parry and finish up by attacking again. So basically at the end of my round I should be doing somewhere around ~52 damage, if I don't crit.
Edit; If, we didn't have to spend for the dang weapon finesse feat to get Piranha Strike; most likely I would go strictly Swashbuckler and take the Celestial Obedience: Ragathiel feat. But at the moment, I can not seem to justify staying straight Swashbuckler.
I do not totally understand this. With dervish dance you still need str 13 if you want to do extra damage.
- Strength: Either 13 because of power attack or the high stat (unless dervish dance is allowed)
That's what he is saying - 13 str is required for power attack.
How much damage and durability are you willing to spend for these options. How many HP per level? How much lost damage per round? How low of a Will save? Ultimately, in order to fill the fighter role, the swashbuckler needs to be good at killing enemies while not being killed for as long as possible. Of the deeds that I would want to use on a regular basis, how many would I be willing to give up for a couple HP / level and a few points of damage on every swing? And when I can take one feat (Extra Panache) so that I don't have to give them up, why would I make the sacrifice? 7 CHA is the best way, mechanically, to build a swashbuckler, and I hate it.If your only concern is damage, then I agree with you. Dump Charisma in the same way that many Gunslingers dump Wisdom. I've been running some play tests on my own, and personally I'm finding that the Swashbuckler is about on par with either an Aldori Swordlord build or a Fighter Duelist build. It is strictly inferior to some builds I've made with the Ninja class or a Bard (Dervish Dancer) build.
I'm basing my opinions with a mindset that a Swashbuckler isn't going to use his entire package of abilities and rather will specialize on a few of them, basically being a fighter with fewer feats but some extra additional abilities. The main problem I keep running into is that existing builds will perform many of these tasks better.
I'll have breakdowns later, but basically the Swashbuckler doesn't really become effective until after level 5 or so. This is the point when Precise Strike damage starts to become noticeable and when you'll have been able to pick up combo of feats every Swashbuckler is going to want to grab. I see this as a problem as it makes for a very boring early game coupled with rather boring and predictable builds. It's a problem ranged builds also have, but without the benefits for extra protect and ease of combat.
I'm not sure how you got the swash on par with an Aldori Swordlord, who does a better job of meeting the swash class description imo.
That aside, I do not only care about damage. I am, however, looking at this class as an alternate fighter/gunslinger. Ang the martial character(s) in a group are expected to go handle the brunt of combat so you don't have ogres grappling your wizard friend. Obviously, asking for gunslinger power level would be ridiculous, and I don't want it. I do think that this class needs to be able to replace the fighter in a group effectively since it is--as billed--a fighter. Unfortunately, the best way to do that does not appear to be Dex/Cha. So without putting a baked in reason to make Dex/Cha the most ideal way to go, the optimal build is going tobe Str/Con like every other martial. Basically, as it stands, the swash is a fighter who trades a couple feats for some nifty tricks. Don't think that tag-line is going to make it to the back of the book...
THis is an opportunity to finally make an effective Dex-based fighter, and all I am asking for is stuff that is available in the game already--heck, it is in one of the parent classes! I've been promised a chance to playtest this afternoon, and I will take copious notes. Hopefully the game experience will change my mind, because I REALLY WANT the Dex/Cha fighter to work. Probably why I am so passionate about it. I have opinions on the other classes, too, but you don't see me on those discussion boards.
The waiting to get to mid level so you can finally be what you are supposed to be thing also bothers me greatly. I can't figure out how finesse at 1st is so terrible because of dipping, when you can already do it with a fighter. How are you supposed to save Sandpoint from goblins if you are only rolling +1 or +2 to hit for 1d6 damage? This would be fine if the character wasn't fulfilling the fighter role, but it is, so this is rough.
I will just, say that i am against dex to damage. Dervish Dance or the agile enhancment. I would rather that thay get some class features that help with damage like they have now. Dex to damage is boring and uninspired, just like a str to reflex save or str to ac would be. The point og the dex based figther is not for the strong and the weak to do same damage. It is to make them both viable. And the SW is IMOP currently not in bad shape.
Really, they could just reprint the agile enchantment in this book. It would fit the theme of "magic items that support the new classes."
I will just, say that i am against dex to damage. Dervish Dance or the agile enhancment. I would rather that thay get some class features that help with damage like they have now. Dex to damage is boring and uninspired, just like a str to reflex save or str to ac would be. The point og the dex based figther is not for the strong and the weak to do same damage. It is to make them both viable. And the SW is IMOP currently not in bad shape.
I agree. Dex to damage is not necessary for the Swashbuckler, since it has the Precise Strike mechanic.
If the forum community pushes too hard for Dex to damage, then they might get it, but the Swashbuckler will end up losing out on other areas to keep the base class balanced - likely losing part of or all of Precise Strike. The end result would be that every Swashbuckler goes Dex because THEY HAVE TO. Currently, if a Swashbuckler focuses on Strength, it will increase their damage but at the cost of reducing other stats, including Dexterity, which results in a decrease in Armor class. This is the type of choice or tradeoff that allows for the same class to be built in more ways than one. Not only do I like it, but I think this is what the developers at Paizo are shooting for.
Another thing, I see a lot of people mentioning how the Swashbuckler compares to specific archetypes of the fighter or even the bard's Dawnflower Dervish. Given that the Swashbuckler is only a base class at this point, with minimal (basically no) feat support and obviously no archetypes, there are very unfair comparisons. As I've read a few other places, the best comparisons to make between these classes and others are Core classes. I personally feel like the Swashbuckler stacks up very well against the fighter, and definitely wins it out in terms of damage with this specific fighting style as well as winning out in terms of social class skills and the skill ranks to stack into them.
Some people are complaining that the Swashbuckler is too MAD, but it's no more so than a Paladin. (I would even argue that the Swashbuckler is less MAD than a paladin since Precise Strike applies to every single attack so Strength is not relied solely upon for damage under any circumstances. This is not true for a Paladin who needs strength as a mechanic to boost damage when they are not Smiting Evil. Alternatively, a Paladin can rely on Power Attack for damage, but so can a Swashbuckler. Sure two-handing is better than not two-handing, but then you give up the scaling bonus to AC from a shield. Also, Precise Strike easily out scales the increase in damage from two-handing power attack.) As others have mentioned, it is an option to dump your Charisma and boost Panache with the Extra Deeds feat.
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The end result would be that every Swashbuckler goes Dex because THEY HAVE TO.
This would be a feature, not a flaw, of a class that is SUPPOSED to be an agile fighter.
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The Swashbuckler should be "forced" into using Dexterity instead of Strength, because the opposite is true of every other melee class. As I keep on saying, over and over again: If you want to make a Strength-based fighter, you can play literally any other melee class.
Nobody complains that the Fighter or Barbarian or Paladin is forced to load up on Strength. Nobody complains that the Wizard is forced to max out his Intellect. So why is it a problem here?
Also, Riposte may be a little better at low levels now, but at mid to high levels it becomes much worse off as an Immediate Action than an Attack of Opportunity. Once you get Signature Deed for your Opportune Parry, you'll be unable to Riposte more than once per turn. And as I mentioned earlier, if you choose to Riposte, you can't use Menacing Swordplay, Pommel Strike, or Dizzying Defense (not that you would ever want to use Dizzying Defense), or double your Precise Strike damage on the next turn.
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It would be a flaw. no class should be so limited in their choice of combat styles. The ninja is supposed to be very agile and you can have str based ninjas without problems, the same should be true for swashbucklers.
The ninja is supposed to be a dex based class but it works BETTER on strength. If that doesn't point out how badly we need a class where the mechanics of being dex based actually meet the flavor I don't know what does.
Complaining about the Swashbuckler only being strength based is like walking past burger king, McDonalds, outback steak house, pizza hut, Dinosaur BBQ, and meat on a stick then walking into "The happy herbavore" and saying "hey! I want something with meat on the menu!"
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I just hope that the swashbuckler gets dex to damage by default so when I'm building my character I can worry about something other than how to get Agile or Dervish Dance as quickly as possible. I'm kind of tired of having to do with with every dex based character.
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The ninja is supposed to be a dex based class but it works BETTER on strength.
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class. Strength based Swashbucklers also take a big reduction in Initiative, Reflex Save, and many thematically appropriate class skills - These are not things to be ignored.
The problem here is not the Swashbuckler. The problem is that certain people pay attention to damage to the exclusion of all other aspects of a character. The problem is "DPR optimization".
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The ninja is supposed to be a dex based class but it works BETTER on strength.** spoiler omitted **
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class. Strength based Swashbucklers also take a big reduction in Initiative, Reflex Save, and many thematically appropriate class skills - These are not things to be ignored.
The problem here is not the Swashbuckler. The problem is that certain people pay attention to damage to the exclusion of all other aspects of a character. The problem is "DPR optimization".
could not agree with you more, this class brings a lot to the table, sure there are small things here and there that need to be addressed, but the only downside to this class is the DPR min/max folks. I have been a "power gamer" for a long time and can see the benefits of this class on a non-damage base. The most "parry" mechanics you could see up until this point was going duelist and having the crane feats, you get...2 per round, one of which you have to give up a normal attack to do. In this instance you can get up to 1+dex(combat reflexes) or in a mythic game(mythic combat reflexes) as many as you want up to your pinache limit. With signature deed you can parry as many melee attacks that come in, bringing that fencing swashbuckler style into it.
All in all i think its a great start, damage isn't amazing but it isnt absolutely garbage either.
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So I’d like to chime in on this thread now that I had a chance to playtest the class a little bit. This was by far the class I was most looking forward to checking out when the partial spoilers were released. Posting my thoughts and results from what I experienced. Did various levels and encounters from 1 to 11.
Level 1 Weapon Finesse
It’s not exactly a problem for two reasons although those reasons are very clunky:
1) GMs can house rule it
2) PFS rebuilding rules (Free rebuilds before level 2)
While I can understand not wanting to frontload a class I think one elegant solution is to word Swashbuckler’s Finesse along the lines of:
Suggestion for new Swashbuckler’s Finesse
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts made against these weapons.
Additionally if you already have the Weapon Finesse feat from another source you get a bonus combat feat.
Daring-do
I don’t like it. Looking at it feels weak; playing with it is very unsatisfying even when attempting to have the ability cost nothing. I don’t really like the system in DnD Next and I am not a fan of it here. Even when I played with this as - roll an extra D6 on the skills - it was very very ‘meh’.
Suggestion 1 – remove the ability to randomly grant extra dice and grant dice with additional levels. I think a dice should be granted at level 1 with an additional one every 4 additional levels (so at 5/9/13/17).
Suggestion 2 – remove this ability completely and replace with something that grants ACTUAL mobility cause this isn’t it.
Example– Spending 1 Panache point allows the Swashbuckler to move without provoking an attack of opportunity. At level 11 when using Daring-do the Swashbuckler may do a single move action or a charge then make a full attack forgoing the attack at her highest bonus.
Parry/Riposte
I am listing these abilities together. I really do but the cost is horrendous. At level 1 when you are stretched for feats you need combat reflexes to get an ability to work? And requires 2 Panache? Please no. I never really used Riposte due to the terrible cost and feat tax.
Suggestion 1 - Parry should either be an immediate action requiring no Panache, not using an AOO with Riposte costing 1 Panache.
Suggestion 2 – Parry should require 1 Panache, using an AOO, Riposte should be free if successful. In this case Parry should not be able to be reduced by feats such as Signature deed.
Recovery
Not bad, more useful at higher levels when you can use this trick to deny full attacks. As it stands I think ‘Recovery’ isn’t the best name for it.
Suggestion – Rename to ‘Deft Dodge’ and ideally I’d like to see ‘Able to stand as a swift action without provoking’ added to this ability.
Menacing Swordplay
I really like this ability. Intimidate as a swift action is really nice and opens up some interesting options please keep it as it is.
Swashbuckler Initiative
I think ideally it should add Cha mod to initiative (min 0) rather than a flat +2 but other than that there is nothing wrong with this. That’s just a feeling and for most Swashbucklers building the ‘right’ way it will be around +2 anyway with a reward for the more dashing ones.
Precise Strike
So much has been said about precise strike already. Level to damage is cool. Doubling it for a point is powerful. Very Powerful and it really does overshadow a swashbuckler’s other options.
Suggestion - I’d like to see the doubling of Precise strike go away, adding in Dex to damage as another passive ability (not a deed).
Since so much has been said on Precise Strike and Dex to damage already I’ll end it here, I could go on and on about it and why, but much of it has already been said.
Pommel Swipe
I like the ability as swift action for an extra attack + combat maneuver, even if it doesn’t get damage boosted by precise strike, is kind of nice in general.
Swift Feint
Nothing ‘Swift’ about Swift Feint. It’s kind of a weird ability and while I like the idea of a swashbuckler feinting I don’t think this is it. Right now it exists in some weird state of attacking and greater feint.
Suggestion 1 – By spending 1 Panache point the time it takes to Feint is reduced. If it would normally be a standard action it becomes a move action, if it would be a move action it becomes a swift. It cannot be reduced beyond a swift action.
Suggestion 2 – Rename to ‘Daring Feint’. Change the last sentence to ‘denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the end of her next turn’ rather than the start. (If we wanted to hedge it could only affect the attacks a swashbuckler makes).
Targeted Strike
I like the ability but please don’t make this a full round action. When I was doing play testing I never once used this as a full round action. Full attacks were nearly always better. A big difference between the gunslinger and the swashbuckler is RANGE.
Suggestion - Make it a Standard Action or even better ‘When a Swashbuckler makes a single attack at her highest attack bonus’ to allow for combinations with things like Vital Strike.
I feel it relevant to quote the design goal of – “Swashbucklers dart in and out of the fray, wearing down their opponents with annoying lunges and feints”. Full round actions don’t scream this to me.
Bleeding Wound
Never used it, but that is more to do with the fact bleeds are weak in general. Someone probably does and the action cost is right at least (free action). Damage scaling with Dex is a nice touch. I’d like to see it say that this bleed damage stacks with other sources to allow for interesting bleed combinations but as it stands I’ll probably never touch it.
Evasion / Subtle Blade
Not complaining exactly but it seems like it’s a lot of defenses all at once at level 11, I think it would feel better if it was spread out across the levels.
Bravery
Of all the things to pull from Fighter this would have been one of the lowest on the list.
Suggestion: Cha to saves
Nimble
More AC is nice so I like it, pulled from Gunslinger and is similar to Armor training from Fighters.
Bonus feats/Weapon Training
All nice to have. In the higher level play testing I did we counting the weapon training as working for the gloves of dueling. It would be nice to have confirmation. Improved Critical at level 5 was wonderful
Panache/Grit as a mechanic
Was very swingy and works like a gunslinger, which I guess is fine. (Small aside, I don’t like killing blows getting back grit since it makes it a very selfish mechanic – ‘nooo let me finish it off for my resources depend on it’)
The ninja is supposed to be a dex based class but it works BETTER on strength.** spoiler omitted **
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class. Strength based Swashbucklers also take a big reduction in Initiative, Reflex Save, and many thematically appropriate class skills - These are not things to be ignored.
The problem here is not the Swashbuckler. The problem is that certain people pay attention to damage to the exclusion of all other aspects of a character. The problem is "DPR optimization".
No... the problem is that your stance is to act like the swashbuckler class holds some new concept of how the game works.
You are acting like the tradeoffs between dexterity and strength don't already exist for all of the other classes that make this choice. Ninjas, rogues, fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians... they ALL get dexterity to armor class, reflex saves and dex skills. They are all better off being Strength based.
What is different here? Someone mentioned the need for Parry, and even if that doesn't change to an immediate, wanting AoOs for Parry doesn't come anywhere near the importance of needing AoOs for a 'Come and get me' Barbarian. And yet, that barbarian is still focused on strength.
This is not about damage. If nothing changes, then I have a strength based swashbuckler. If they get dex to damage, then my swashbuckler deals the same damage, but has a high dexterity instead of a high strength. That is all that's happening here. So this has absolutely nothing to do with DPR.
Because str-to-damage and a 22 strength is going to deal the same damage as a 22 dex swash with dex-to-damage.
The difference will be that a dex-to-damage swashbuckler has a better AC, reflex save, and dex based skills. But keep in mind that something like Tiger Style exists so that you can dump AC to fuel power attack... and you spend a FEAT to be able to do that. Reckless abandon lets you dump AC to gain hit bonuses if you spend a precious Rage Power on it. If they put out a feat that mirrors power attack except the penalties apply to your AC, well guess what? They just made a new required feat for fighters. If they stack, then both are mandatory.
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Again, this point has already been covered. Fighters et al. take the same hit to Initiative, Reflex, and skills if they go Strength over Dex. But it doesn't matter, because damage is more important than all those things.
Try this thought experiment. What if you had a Fighter that was guaranteed to always go first, always pass a Reflex save except on a Natural 1, always succeed on Dex-based skills, and enemies would always miss except on a Natural 20. This character also flaps a feeble sword around for 1d6+his level. Is he actually all that useful?
It's called Rocket Launcher Tag for a reason.
The problem is that purely martial classes (including the Swashbuckler in its current form) bring precious little to the table other than DPR. We could take the Qinggong Monk approach and just let Panache use certain spells as (Ex) effects at mid to high levels, but then Fighters will start feeling small in the pants.
Please, no. The mechanic needs work, but we already have deeds competing for the Swift Action, and the Riposte costing an Attack of Opportunity is practically the only part of the combo that works right.Sorry, I'm leaning in that direction right now. That doesn't mean it's airtight, but yes, when you make and immediate action, it does compete with swift actions. That's part of the game.
I don't mind the immediate action, as long as it doesn't turn out like the horrible Duelist version that plain out suck (yes I've played a Duelist).
That said I do prefer AoO, but immediate action is still OK and balances the ability.
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The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage.
Its not the only thing but for a fighter its pretty high up there. getting something out of the fight is pretty high up there for most classes.
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class.
Its a moderate hit, and AC gets kind of useless after a certain point.
Strength based Swashbucklers also take a big reduction in Initiative
Which you can make up for with a trait.
Reflex Save
Which is the weakest save in the game, is already good, and mostly hurts your HP (which you have plenty of)
and many thematically appropriate class skills
Which can be boosted into the stratosphere with ranks and relatively cheap magic items.
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class.Its a moderate hit, and AC gets kind of useless after a certain point.
Not sure how I feel about Dex-to-damage yet, but this statement intrigued me. When/why does AC get useless? Feel free to message me if you think this is too far off-topic.
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Whether the class does enough damage without needing Dex to damage is moot: you already can get Dex to damage using Dervish Dance, and don't need Dex to damage if you go Str!
People will go Str-based or Dervish Dance, with the class as it is! Granting Dex to damage won't make the class more powerful, it will just not go Str-based (good! What's the point of being this class if you want to be Str-based?) or take Dervish Dance (again, good!).
Does granting Dex to damage mean that the Precise Strike deed would need to be modified so that the class doesn't do too much DPR? Yes! Totally fine with that!
So the only problem with Dex to damage is relegating it to a dip class.
Uncompromising Style: The unique mindset of the swashbuckler allows great focus to be rewarded, but allows a lack of focus to be distracting. At 1st level a swashbuckler may add her Dex bonus instead of her Str bonus to damage when attacking with a weapon using Weapon Finesse. She cannot use this ability if she has more non-swashbuckler class levels than she has in swashbuckler class levels.
Notes: this will prevent swashbuckler being a dip class while still allowing a swashbuckler to dip. It also allows true dedicated multi-classing.
Note also that Weapon Finesse would also be granted at first level, and Panache/deeds would start at second level.
Sorted!
I agree with just about everything here, with one exception: Riposte now uses an immediate action, so you can parry up to your DEX mod with Combat Reflexes, (limited by Panache) but you can only Riposte once. I actually think that works OK. I still think Parry should be "as long as you have 1 panache", just because more often than not the only attacks you'll beat at low level would have missed anyway, but otherwise it's much better than it was.
Sense
Well I wouldn't go as far to say 'That is the way it works now' Just what the designer is leaning towards.
Summary -
Requiring 2 Panache is too high
Requiring 2 AOO's is too high (Please don't feat tax this, if combat reflexes was given as a class feature I rescind this statement)
Not sure how I feel about Dex-to-damage yet, but this statement intrigued me. When/why does AC get useless? Feel free to message me if you think this is too far off-topic.
The real problem here is that people keep talking about "damage" and ignoring every other implication and reality of the method used to achieve that increased damage. In the case of lowering Dexterity to increase Strength on a Swashbuckler who is only proficient in light armor, you take a big hit to armor class.Its a moderate hit, and AC gets kind of useless after a certain point.
It becomes a certain sub-game.
IF you focus on AC (EG shield bashing TWF fighter with shield focus magic shield magic full plate etc.) you can stack it up pretty high and be happy.
But take a regular swashbuckler. Say he is level 12 with a 22 dex, a +3 mithral chain shirt, +1 RoP, +1 AoNA, and +3 for nimble. Pretty standard right? So that is AC 28 at level 12.
CR 12 monsters are usually attacking with bonuses over +20
So, you are getting hit, even by the low end of these monsters, 65% of the time. They are hitting for damage somewhere in the range of 15-20 damage per hit (more if they only have one attack but that is rare at this level).
So, lose 4 AC and you get hit 20% more often. So you will take approximately 3-4 more damage per hit.
Alternatively, if you grab something like Reckless Abandon, YOU are hitting 20% more often, and your damage per hit is much higher than a Beastiary monster as a barbarian (simple EG 30str while raging, power attack, furious courageous greatsword +2, = 2d6+31, avg 38) so your 20% swap is actually giving you 7-8 damage while you take 3-4 more damage. And this is actually higher since players crit more than monsters on the whole.
So, as soon as you are dealing more damage than the monsters hitting you, AC is less valuable. This is why combat expertise is so lousy as a 1 to 1 trade. Crane style can actually make the trade for fighting defensively worth it by mitigating the penalties.
If you stack AC and make it a character hallmark, you can at least start to depend on it a little bit, but if you are an average sort of build, then most monsters are hitting you 60-70% of the time anyway... so changing that to 40-60% is far less appealing.
Barbarian is just a great example because they have things like Come and Get Me, which invites attacks so that they can attack back.... and people use that power because the barbarian knows that his attacks hitting are far more impactful than his enemies attacks hitting.
I see a suggestion for CHA/DEX to saves; what would be the rationale for this? I'm not saying there is none, but I'm just curious. I can see maybe CHA to Will (force of personality makes them not easily dominated) and *maybe* DEX to Fort (though I think they should just get a good progression), but not one of them to both...
I see a suggestion for CHA/DEX to saves; what would be the rationale for this? I'm not saying there is none, but I'm just curious. I can see maybe CHA to Will (force of personality makes them not easily dominated) and *maybe* DEX to Fort (though I think they should just get a good progression), but not one of them to both...
Dex to any save would be a bit much, since it's your primary stat. Not to mention, it would boost Reflex to absurd levels.
Charisma to Will would work well, thematically and mechanically. It could even replace Wisdom instead of stacking on to it, for those haughty and reckless swordsmen who end up with 8 Wisdom.
Fortitude should just have a good base progression. After all, both parent classes have it.
I see a suggestion for CHA/DEX to saves; what would be the rationale for this? I'm not saying there is none, but I'm just curious. I can see maybe CHA to Will (force of personality makes them not easily dominated) and *maybe* DEX to Fort (though I think they should just get a good progression), but not one of them to both...
DEX to fort - no. No stat should give you a bonus to Fort and Reflex saves.
CHA to Will saves would be something I could get behind conceptually, but it would result in WIS being dumped to a 7 on every single Swashbuckler and I'm not sure that would be desirable.
Of your suggestions though, I think I would most prefer that the Swashbuckler just get a good Fortitude save - if need be, in place of the good Reflex save.
A class having a bad Fort AND Will save is hard to swallow for me. (My group house ruled the Rogue to have a good fort save.)
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I see a suggestion for CHA/DEX to saves; what would be the rationale for this? I'm not saying there is none, but I'm just curious. I can see maybe CHA to Will (force of personality makes them not easily dominated) and *maybe* DEX to Fort (though I think they should just get a good progression), but not one of them to both...
Agreed.
Fort should be a good save. Both parent classes have it as a good save, the class is too MAD as it is, and a melee martial needs it.
Charisma adding to Will saves only (replacing the rubbish Bravery) gives a reason to not dump Cha to 7 in a class that's supposed to be charismatic. There is a 3.5 feat called Force of Personality (that's the rationale, right there) that allows you to use Cha instead of Wis for Will saves. If the swashbuckler had this it would help with the MADness, and boy! don't they need help with Will saves!
As to why play a swashbuckler, asked a few times in this thread, my answer would be: for the swashbuckler class features. The deeds are pretty fun, for example, or at least have the potential to be. I'm looking at this class, and I am interested because it's a "swordplay dude with parries and ripostes, and other interesting things" (and a new, not-even-finished, experimental class, at that), not because it's, say, a "DEX-based martial class". It's the same reason why I might choose to play a sorcerer: it's not for the CHA-based casting, but for the spontaneous mechanic, and bloodlines, and such.
Much like the bard, it seems to me that the Swashbuckler is very much a fifth party member class. It can't take the place of a Fighter in a four man party, simply because a Swashbuckler isn't nearly as versatile, ...stuff...
What versatility is the fighter have that the SW dosent? That justifyes a place in a 4 man team.
Much like the bard, it seems to me that the Swashbuckler is very much a fifth party member class. It can't take the place of a Fighter in a four man party, simply because a Swashbuckler isn't nearly as versatile, ...stuff...What versatility is the fighter have that the SW dosent? That justifyes a place in a 4 man team.
Well, for one thing, the fighter isn't worried about constructs....
To be fair the class description
"Whereas many warriors brave battle encased in a suit
of armor and wielding large and powerful weapons,
swashbucklers rely on speed, agility, and panache.
Swashbucklers dart in and out of the fray, wearing down
their opponents with annoying lunges and feints, and
foiling the powerful attacks with a flick of the wrist and
a flash of the blade before delivering a fatal riposte that
is carnage made an art form. Some may be arrogant, selfinvolved,
and very devil-may-care, but behind this veneer
are people deeply dedicated to her craft. Swashbucklers
spend much of their time practicing footwork, stances,
and precise strikes. Those of smaller races are particularly
out to prove that the right mix of discipline and daring
is the perfect counter to size and strength. They enjoy
nothing more than to take down lumbering brutes and
bullies."
Doesn't scream strong uber muscled dude
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To emulate the romance or fantasy swashbucklers of lore, they need to ensure a mix of Strength and Dex. Not all one. Not all the other. The Strength swashbuckler, which is very so much a valid one from the stories, still needs Dex. It'd be best if the Dex swashbuckler still needed Strength, as the roots of this class were not extreme weaklings.
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I like the preciøse strike mechanic and think it puts the SW in a good place when it comes to damage. I also like it because it tones Down the focus on stats. It is possibly to make a SW without minmaxing and still be good in damage. She will be better if she max out her dex and or str but the difference between a 15 but and a 25 is less than on a normal fighter, because a lot of damage is direct class feature.