|
Swashbuckler seems cool. On their own they read really fun. However I really, really worry about a swashbuckler with combat reflexes, high panache and crane style that allows them to be nigh-immune to melee attack rolls. You would have a character with two layers of 'I negate your attack then hit you in the face' while expending two attack of opp actions. No no no no no. I really don't want to gm for a melee that is nigh immune to melee attacks.
Don't forget that while Rapier is the first thing to come to mind, this class also meshes with Scimitar (via Dervish Dance), the Aldori Dueling Sword (via Dueling Mastery), Dagger, Short Sword, and other light piercing weapons.
"Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light
or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains
a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against these weapons."So if I am reading that right, then it allows you to Finesse other one handed weapons than the Rapier, so Heavy Pick, Morning Star, Short Spear,and a few others are now viable options.
Yeah, dwarven swashbuckler with a pick. Let that one sink in....
The piercing restriction seems even more arbitrary when you put it that way. The flavor breaks down to a point where you've completely lost it with the Morning Star.
And having to spend multiple resources in feats and skill points to get a Scimitar which is statistically the same as a slashing rapier bothers me, even with Dex to damage.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I understand what people means about the attack of the opportunity thingy...heh, parry is already such a powerful ability, even just one attack of opportunity used to block an attack can change the tides in your favor easily. Most people playing Swashbuckler are most likely going to get combat reflexes because frankly, I don't see what other feats that you are going to get beside weapon focus and improved critical way later on due to the bab requirements.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not going Dex to Damage was a good idea, IMO, and the ability to work well for both strength focused and dex focused characters is great. From what I can tell, the only way the core line interacts with the Golarion line is if it's bringing things over. I haven't seen many instances where golarion line stuff is taken into consideration as strongly as core options.
For what it's worth, I'm not seeing any Core feats that require Weapon Finesse that aren't mythic or possibly in the ARG.
The way it's handled now is just fine.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Daring-Do mentions the Signature Deed feat. Should this be taken to indicate that Signature Deed and possibly other grit feats can be applied to panache?
I now want this class to have an archetype based on confusion and misdirection (think Jack Sparrow) with the class ability renamed to Ditzy Do
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually agree Cheapy. I think level to damage is already amazing.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like the swashbuckler so far, and will probably make it my next PFS character.
However, one thing seems off: The restriction of "living creatures with discernible anatomies." in Precise Strike feels like a copy-paste error from 3.5. There's a reason Paizo removed that restriction from sneak attack in PF.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
From page 41, this one made me do a double take:
Most deeds grant the swashbuckler a monetary bonus or effect, but some provide longer lasting effects.
(Emphasis mine)
I presume the intended word was "momentary," perhaps?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Agreed Arutema, piercing only already puts them at a disadvantage against zombies and skeletons...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This class seems really limited, build wise.
You HAVE to use one handed piercing weapons for pretty much everything. Same reason I didn't really like the gunslinger. And it's going to be an absolute no-brainer to take Dervish Dance or Agile Weapons (I really hate those two...)
I think panache is a dumb name for a class feature. That's subjective, I know, but I'm going to feel silly talking about how many panache points I have.
The finesse feat should be given out at level 1. Going from level 1 to 2 shouldn't increase your hit by around +5. It should also count as Weapon Finesse for the purpose of feat pre-reqs.
Swashbuckler seems cool. On their own they read really fun. However I really, really worry about a swashbuckler with combat reflexes, high panache and crane style that allows them to be nigh-immune to melee attack rolls. You would have a character with two layers of 'I negate your attack then hit you in the face' while expending two attack of opp actions. No no no no no. I really don't want to gm for a melee that is nigh immune to melee attacks.
This shouldn't be too bad. Note that the Swashbuckler needs to conserve a point of Panache in his pool to utilize Precise Strike. This means that in order to Parry and Riposte a single attack, he's looking at 16+ Charisma in order to not lose Precise Strike, on a class with only Reflex as a good save by the way, meaning that buying that high of a Charisma score is a relevant hit to, honestly, Wisdom and Will saves.
Also note that to get the Crane Combo going, that's five feats, three of which have relevant BAB prerequisites. Note that fighting defensively to turn on Crane Style is a detriment to the Swashbuckler's ability to Parry. Also note that if he multiclasses to deal with the five-feat issue, he has to sacrifice Precise Strike progression and Weapon Training progression.
Snake Style would probably be more interesting anyways, since a successful Parry causes the attack to miss, thus triggering Snake Fang. Note that Snake Style makes your unarmed strikes piercing.
One suggestion I would like to make for the Swashbuckler, though, would be to break up the 11th-level acquisition of Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, AND Improved Uncanny Dodge. That seems a little silly to give them out all at once.
It would also be a good idea to clarify whether Swashbuckler Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. A similar issue applies to the Brawler.
-Matt
I like the swashbuckler so far, and will probably make it my next PFS character.
However, one thing seems off: The restriction of "living creatures with discernible anatomies." in Precise Strike feels like a copy-paste error from 3.5. There's a reason Paizo removed that restriction from sneak attack in PF.
Fairly certain that's intentional. That's how the duelist ability works; it's based on that, not sneak attack.
"Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light
or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains
a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against these weapons."So if I am reading that right, then it allows you to Finesse other one handed weapons than the Rapier, so Heavy Pick, Morning Star, Short Spear,and a few others are now viable options.
Yeah, dwarven swashbuckler with a pick. Let that one sink in....
If that's how it actually works, that would be pretty awesome.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I actually agree Cheapy. I think level to damage is already amazing.
It's not like level to damage and attribute to damage are mutually exclusive.
I believe the main bone of contention with this is that there's a clear push towards high dex in the class design, and from there you either try to match that with strength, or just use one of the already existing methods to take full advantage of your primary dex stat.The second is obviously going to produce a more effective character than the first, which means you're going to end up with all your swashbucklers wielding Scimitars and complaining about having to pay the feat tax for Dervish Dancer, or Rapiers and paying the enchantment tax for their agile weapons, both being choices which work against the attempt to allow greater variety in the class with the broader kind-of-finesse.
From page 41, this one made me do a double take:
Most deeds grant the swashbuckler a monetary bonus or effect, but some provide longer lasting effects.(Emphasis mine)
I presume the intended word was "momentary," perhaps?
Yeah, there's a buncha typos in this PDF. I'm sure they'll catch 'em when they go back for further editing (or at least I hope so).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I actually agree Cheapy. I think level to damage is already amazing.
After doing the math, level-to-damage keeps the Swashbuckler close to a Strength-based two-handed weapon user for the 1-9ish game, until the Strength-based character really gets going.
Note that Precise Strike precludes the Swashbuckler from two-handing for 1.5x Strength, and from receiving 3:1 Power Attack. Also note that Precise Strike does not multiply on a crit, but the damage the Swashbuckler sacrifices to receive Precise Strike does.
I would like to note that the class pretty much confines the Swashbuckler to using a rapier, due to its reliance on critical hits for fueling Panache, to the point where it even gives out Improved Critical at 5th level.
I would suggest revising Panache to not be so concerned with critical hits, thus opening up a variety of weapon choices instead of an incredibly narrow set.
Or perhaps, over time, any light or one-handed weapon the Swashbuckler wields could eventually have an 18-20 crit range, which would stack and mean that the Swashbuckler crits on 15-20 no matter what he wields?
-Matt
If that's how it actually works, that would be pretty awesome.
"Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light
or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains
a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against these weapons."So if I am reading that right, then it allows you to Finesse other one handed weapons than the Rapier, so Heavy Pick, Morning Star, Short Spear,and a few others are now viable options.
Yeah, dwarven swashbuckler with a pick. Let that one sink in....
Seems legit! Weapon finesse needs a light weapon and a light pick is it. HI HOOOOOoooOOOOOOO!
For the dervish dance, you can't afford the +2 weapon till level 6 or so... that is over half the game to wait to start damaging things if you're lucky.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sometimes I wish Dervish Dance would just be removed from existence.
They don't get Dex to damage because then people will just mutliclass it right? Well now they'll just take Dervish Dance. Between having every Swashbuckler use a scimitar and having all of them multi class, I'd rather them multi class. There's got to be a better way.
I don't have a lot of experience with gunslingers, maybe this is normal, but if a Swashbuckler were to entirely ignore the panache ability, they would in addition to their other class abilities get
-intimidate as swift action (3rd)
-precise strike (3rd)
-+2 initiative (3rd)
-Feint (7th)
-Evasion & Improved Uncanny Dodge (11th)
-Immune to disarm steal and sunder (11th)
-take 10 on Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim checks (15th)
at all times. That's already more than the hunter gets, and in addition to that they get ALL the other panache abilities. Though honestly, I'd rather more classes work this way than the other way around.
I actually agree Cheapy. I think level to damage is already amazing.After doing the math, level-to-damage keeps the Swashbuckler close to a Strength-based two-handed weapon user for the 1-9ish game, until the Strength-based character really gets going.
Note that Precise Strike precludes the Swashbuckler from two-handing for 1.5x Strength, and from receiving 3:1 Power Attack. Also note that Precise Strike does not multiply on a crit, but the damage the Swashbuckler sacrifices to receive Precise Strike does.
-Matt
Also note that the swashbuckler has a crapton of other useful abilities that the fighter won't have, so just looking at DPR won't tell you much :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also note that the swashbuckler has a crapton of other useful abilities that the fighter won't have, so just looking at DPR won't tell you much :)
Yep. What's important is that the math says that Swashbucklers aren't exactly kings of DPR. Precise Strike is what makes a free-hand fighter a viable option.
-Matt
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shouldn't "Daring-do" be "Derring-do"?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If that's how it actually works, that would be pretty awesome.
"Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light
or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains
a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against these weapons."So if I am reading that right, then it allows you to Finesse other one handed weapons than the Rapier, so Heavy Pick, Morning Star, Short Spear,and a few others are now viable options.
Yeah, dwarven swashbuckler with a pick. Let that one sink in....
Seems legit! Weapon finesse needs a light weapon and a light pick is it. HI HOOOOOoooOOOOOOO!
For the dervish dance, you can't afford the +2 weapon till level 6 or so... that is over half the game to wait to start damaging things if you're lucky.
When I read that, I went through the list of one-handed piercing weapons to see what ridiculousness you could do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seems legit! Weapon finesse needs a light weapon and a light pick is it. HI HOOOOOoooOOOOOOO!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Shouldn't "Daring-do" be "Derring-do"?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
From page 41, this one made me do a double take:
Most deeds grant the swashbuckler a monetary bonus or effect, but some provide longer lasting effects.(Emphasis mine)
I presume the intended word was "momentary," perhaps?
I like to think that when you use your Panache abilities, gold coins rain from the sky.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also add to the list of hilariously awesome one handed piercing weapons- the trident. Yup, finesse trident fighter. Now THAT'S dashing
Also add to the list of hilariously awesome one handed piercing weapons- the trident. Yup, finesse trident fighter. Now THAT'S dashing
Weapon finesse
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
The pick works because its a light weapon, the rapier works because its on the list, the trident wouldn't. Sorry Neptune.
The ridiculous weapon ideas hurts me so hard. Obvious piercing requirement needs to go.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like to think that when you use your Panache abilities, gold coins rain from the sky.From page 41, this one made me do a double take:
Most deeds grant the swashbuckler a monetary bonus or effect, but some provide longer lasting effects.(Emphasis mine)
I presume the intended word was "momentary," perhaps?
"AM I any good? AM I ANY GOOD?!?! B****, I'M FABULOUS!!!" *Strikes a pose, coins rain from the sky* "MAKING IT RAIN!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also add to the list of hilariously awesome one handed piercing weapons- the trident. Yup, finesse trident fighter. Now THAT'S dashingWeapon finesse
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
The pick works because its a light weapon, the rapier works because its on the list, the trident wouldn't. Sorry Neptune.
Ah, but the Swashbuckler Finesse doesn't have that limit. It's Finesse with all one handed or light piercing weapons (and a trident is a one handed piercing weapon, I believe).
Except the class doesn't give the weapon finesse feat. You gain the benefit of the feat (may use your dexterity modifier instead of strength) with light or 1-handed piercing weapons. As a 1-handed piercing weapon, Trident is A-OK.
Also add to the list of hilariously awesome one handed piercing weapons- the trident. Yup, finesse trident fighter. Now THAT'S dashingWeapon finesse
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
The pick works because its a light weapon, the rapier works because its on the list, the trident wouldn't. Sorry Neptune.
Weapon Finesse? No. Swashbuckler Finesse? Oh heck yeah. Trident.
Also add to the list of hilariously awesome one handed piercing weapons- the trident. Yup, finesse trident fighter. Now THAT'S dashingWeapon finesse
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
The pick works because its a light weapon, the rapier works because its on the list, the trident wouldn't. Sorry Neptune.
"Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with lightor one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains
a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against these weapons."
If it was just for the normal selection, it should just read "weapon Finesse as a bonus feat." Of course, this is me wanting it to work with a heavy pick or tridents. Let's be honest, otherwise it'd be best to say "with light and one handed finessable weapons" to avoid confusion.
Until then, manly miners!
It looks as though swift feint has need of a re-write:
Swift Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with at least
1 panache point can spend a standard action to purposely
miss a creature that she could normally hit with a light
or one-handed weapon melee attack. When she does, that
creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the
start of her next turn.My guess is that the intent was that if a swashbuckler hits an opponent, then as a swift action they can instead miss that opponent and cause them to be denied their dexterity bonus to AC until the start of their next turn.
An alternative would be that they can spend a panache point to use the improved feint combat maneuver.
There doesn't seem to be any straight forward way that a swashbuckler could both hit an opponent, *and* then spend a standard action to instead miss that opponent...
I noted this too. The swashbuckler doesn't get sneak attack, so what's the point in giving up a hit now to hit later? If it doesn't have to be a hit, what constitutes "purposely missing" and "normally hit"?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Does Swashbucklers Finesse work on weapons that can't normally benefit from weapon finesse?
At 2nd level, a swashbuckler
gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light
or one-handed piercing melee weapons, as well as gains
a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder
attempts made against these weapons.
Except the class doesn't give the weapon finesse feat. You gain the benefit of the feat (may use your dexterity modifier instead of strength) with light or 1-handed piercing weapons. As a 1-handed piercing weapon, Trident is A-OK.
Right but if the benefit of the feat doesn't apply to a weapon does the ability work on it?
clicky the faq and pray.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would suggest revising Panache to not be so concerned with critical hits, thus opening up a variety of weapon choices instead of an incredibly narrow set.
Or perhaps, over time, any light or one-handed weapon the Swashbuckler wields could eventually have an 18-20 crit range, which would stack and mean that the Swashbuckler crits on 15-20 no matter what he wields?
-Matt
Honestly, I think the fact that it depends on critical hits (for something other than just more damage) is the BEST feature of this class. Your second suggestion is excellent if they wanted to open it up to other weapons, although I would fear the 18-20 crit range picks...
It looks as though swift feint has need of a re-write:
Swift Feint (Ex): At 7th level, a swashbuckler with at least
1 panache point can spend a standard action to purposely
miss a creature that she could normally hit with a light
or one-handed weapon melee attack. When she does, that
creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC until the
start of her next turn.My guess is that the intent was that if a swashbuckler hits an opponent, then as a swift action they can instead miss that opponent and cause them to be denied their dexterity bonus to AC until the start of their next turn.
It's a copy-paste from one of the gunslinger abilities.
-TimD
Edited as post was more harsh than intended and not helpful. Boat long-since missed on Gunslinger abilities.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Swashbuckler seems cool. On their own they read really fun. However I really, really worry about a swashbuckler with combat reflexes, high panache and crane style that allows them to be nigh-immune to melee attack rolls. You would have a character with two layers of 'I negate your attack then hit you in the face' while expending two attack of opp actions. No no no no no. I really don't want to gm for a melee that is nigh immune to melee attacks.Also note that to get the Crane Combo going, that's five feats, three of which have relevant BAB prerequisites. Note that fighting defensively to turn on Crane Style is a detriment to the Swashbuckler's ability to Parry. Also note that if he multiclasses to deal with the five-feat issue, he has to sacrifice Precise Strike progression and Weapon Training progression.
Feats:
1) Weapon Finesse, Imp. Unarmed Strike (Human Bonus)3) Dervish Dance
4) Dodge
5) Crane Style
7) Crane Wing
8) (Insert preferred Feat here)
9) Crane Riposte
If you're not a human, it will take up all your feats till level 9.
Crane Style reduces the -4 penalty to a -2 penalty, and gives a +3 dodge bonus vs a +2 bonus. Now, any sane Swashbuckler is going to have Acrobatics, so he's getting a further +1 Dodge bonus when Fighting Defensively. In total, -2 to attack for +4 to AC isn't a bad choice.
At 7th level, the Swashbuckler can auto-deflect the first attack in a round. This is significant. Previous to this, the Swashbuckler is matching his highest attack against an enemies highest attack, whereas now the Swashbuckler auto-deflects the highest attack, and then matches his highest attack against the enemies iterative attack. Now, this isn't necessarily true for monsters with multiple attacks, but the Swashbuckler tends to have an advantage when it comes to Parrying now.
At 9th level, the Swashbuckler is auto-deflecting the first hit, and gaining a free attack, and then they can use Opportune Parry to further deflect attacks in favor for more Riposte. Also, Crane Riposte lowers the attack penalty for fighting defensively to -1, so he is now trading -1 to attack for +4 to AC.
Further, if they, at some point, purchase a Rod of Balance, they can bump their AC from Fighting Defensively by another +2 bonus, for a grand total of -2/+6 or -1/+6. That is well worth the benefit.
To top it off, the Swashbuckler is getting a +2 Dodge bonus from her Nimble class feature; and if she takes the Dodge feat, she's getting a +3 Dodge bonus. At level 10, she gains another Dodge bonus, giving her a total of +10 Dodge bonus from Crane Style, Dodge, Fighting Defensively, Rod of Balance, and her Nimble Class feature. As a Dex prime class, she could be sporting a 22 Dex (+6) and a Chain shirt (+4) with a +1 (on the safe side) enhancement modifier. This all adds up to a +21 AC bonus (AC 31), before we even get into Rings or Amulets which could add another +2 - +4 to AC (AC 33 - AC 35)
Yes, the Swashbuckler is going to a real b%&+# for GMs to deal with.
[Edit] Forgot to include the prerequisites for Crane Style.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes yes, but does the Swashbuckler gain "Favored enemy: chandelier" and "Favored enemy: drapes"?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yea, that's one of my problems with the class. It's going to be cookie cutter.
Even without dervish dance (because seriously, with precise strike your feats are better off elsewhere), crane style is such an obvious feat that everyone will take it. Like the scimitar to the magus.
I mean, it's a feat that's stronger than their class ability.
Right but if the benefit of the feat doesn't apply to a weapon does the ability work on it?clicky the faq and pray.
I think you're reading more ambiguity into things than exists.
The benefit line of Weapon Finesse says 'With weapon(s) Y, apply effect Z'.Z is the benefit of Weapon Finesse. Y just tells you when and where it applies. Swashbuckler Finesse tells you to apply Z to X instead of Y.
how much farther does it go though? I would imagine 45 armour without being a total nut and spending all your resources on it at 20. That's not going to prevent you from getting smacked.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was kind of hoping the Swashbuckler would gain a 'Improvised Mastery' ability. They could Improvise weapons on the go, or Improvise defenses. Like holding up a chair, and using it as a shield, or ripping off drapes, using it like a cloak.
These would be amazing methods of using panache.
I was kind of hoping the Swashbuckler would gain a 'Improvised Mastery' ability. They could Improvise weapons on the go, or Improvise defenses. Like holding up a chair, and using it as a shield, or ripping off drapes, using it like a cloak.
These would be amazing methods of using panache.
That definitely seems like archetype material, if nothing else