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There are 3 Precise Strike abilities in the game. Duelist, a Feat, and the Swashbuckler. Two of the three are strictly called out as Precision damage, the third isn't, RAW, called out as being precision damage.
Here's an interesting thing. The 2 abilities that are explicitly called out as being "precision damage"? They are bonus damage DICE, and no one here is arguing to have bonus damage dice multiply on a critical hit. Do you know why? Because from a non-flavor-purely-mechanical point of view that would be broken.
The other ability that's not explicitly called out as "precision damage" is the duelist's Precise Strike. Do you know why people are saying it shouldn't count as precision damage? Not because they are munchkins, trying to pull one over on the DM, or because they are terrible rules-layers, trying to enforce an unrealistic black-and-white interpretation of RAW with no room for real-world logic... but because from a non-flavor-purely-mechanical point of view it would NOT BE BROKEN TO THE GAME'S MATH IF IT DID. It also makes a unified, simple, rule for how crits work. "Flat bonus multiplies, additional dice do not" Period. Done. End of story.
For proof of how unbroken it would be for a Duelist's precise strike to multiply on a crit: see Smite Evil, which does multiply. If you can explain to me why a Paladin isn't being a munchkin when his +1 damage per class level multiplies on a crit, but a Duelist is, then you will have taught me something. Little hint: The limitation on evil targets is purely flavor-based and has no bearing on system math.
For proof of how arbitrary it is for a flat-bonus to be labeled as "non-multiplying" (ie, "precision damage"), please provide the counter-argument for why a Ranger's Favored Enemy damage bonus (which represents knowing a creature's weak points and how to strike them) multiplies on a critical, while a Duelist's/Swashbuckler's Precise Strike (which represents being extremely accurate with all finesse-type attacks) does not.
The only reason Favored Enemy multiplies and Sneak Attack doesn't is because Favored Enemy is a static bonus, which wouldn't break the math of the game to multiply, and Sneak Attack is bonus damage dice, which would break the math of the game to multiply. There is no other reason.
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Two minor (very minor) questions that I don't think have been addressed so far:
1) Does the gnome hooked hammer's hook end count as a one-handed piercing weapon if you only use the weapon one-handed? Essentially this makes it a heavy pick with the trip property, and the ability to take on some skeletons if you need to by flipping to the hammer side. Although, you know what, every time I think about using a weird weapon that technically counts for swashbuckler finesse, I remember that tridents and picks aren't "bladed weapons" and therefore don't count for the fencer trait, which I feel is pretty necessary for the parry/riposte combo.
Sadly, the gnome hooked hammer is a two-handed weapon, so I don't think it qualifies.
You could use a taiaha though!
2) Two minor things about weapon finesse versus swashbuckler finesse. Weapon finesse comes with an ACP penalty to attack if you use a finesse weapon and a shield at the same time, so although it would be nice to have at first level, perhaps it would actually be best to leave this until one could get a masterwork buckler? I'm surprised I didn't remember this part of weapon finesse until now. That said, does the same apply to swashbuckler finesse? Strictly speaking, swashbuckler finesse grants "the benefits" of the weapon finesse feat, so does it leave out the ACP penalty from a shield?
Good point, I will have to remember that for my 1st level PFS Swashbuckler. As I intend to take Weapon Finesse at 1st level, I guess after his first adventure he will be buying a masterwork buckler (0 ACP).
Swashbuckler Weapon Finesse as currently written grants the benefits of Weapon Finesse, but not the penalties. Hence the ACP penalty of the shield shouldn't apply.
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We ran a quick session yesterday at levels 1 and 6.
I built my halfling swashbuckler (which absolutely should be the iconic for this imho) and this is what I found - although I'm sure all of this has been covered elsewhere, I feel like it's worth mentioning because if enough people are encountering the same issues then it suggests they are in fact problems with the class rather than just observations.
1. Level 1 is really painful. This is a dex character meaning you either should have or will need to take weapon finesse at level 1 because your strength is likely to be 12 at best. I took it as a feat which at least enabled me to hit fairly regularly although with measly damage. I'm not saying this character should dominate the way our psychotic bloodrager was, but at the start of a new campaign when your character is all shiny, particularly a full BAB class, it becomes disappointing pretty soon.
2. Having taken weapon finesse as a feat at level 1 I got swashbuckler defense as a level 2 ability - which by then was obviously redundant. So two levels of pain so far.
3. This class, more than any other I've seen, screams dex to damage. Thematically, mechanically, realistically - any kind of 'istically' you'd care to use. The level to damage with precise strike helps but it isn't enough to stay in the fight at higher levels. Piranha Strike was my preferred method of combating this since Dervish Dance just doesn't sit right with me in my Indigo Montoya build. I played it with a rapier and found I was doing fairly good, consistent damage but of course rapier doesn;t qualify for this feat which is another slap in the face for the poor SB.
4. I already know people have covered the whole attack of opportunity/parry thing and I would second it.
5. It's defences are really weak. Saves and AC are going to be low. You aren't going to pump con for HP because you've got too many other attributes to worry about so at medium to high levels you are going to get destroyed by a spellcaster or outsider. I fear for the poor SB who with all his derring-do and bravado, comes up against a witch or necromancer.
6. I feel like it needs more deeds, for variety, utility and to just get something out of the feature.
7. I love this class thematically and I don't think we are a million miles away from its intention but at the moment there are some issues that need to be addressed to make it viable at both low and high levels, with about level 5 the only sweet spot.
Cheers.
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Really? I don't even know why the whole 'reverse-engineering headache' thing is even brought up. As if it's hard to look at a stat block that says, "1d6+11/15-20/x2" and then quickly glance up at the character sheet to see 'Human Swashbuckler 5" and realize, "Oh, 5 of that damage is from Precise Strike, so a Crit is 2d6+8 +5 from Precise Strike".
If people are complaining about how hard it is to reverse engineer Precise Strike on crit damage, I don't think it's Precise Strike that's the problem. It's their ability to use logic, and math, and their schooling that is the issue.
It's important to avoid introducing this sort of complexity unless it's really important because complexity is cumulative. That's a very basic game design idea. Yes, when there's only one thing going on, then it's easy to remember and easy to subtract, but as I'm sure you're aware, Pathfinder combats generally have lots of different things going on, and individual simple things compound complexity to the point where you do have something that's easy to forget or easy to mangle as you're also manipulating all of the other modifiers.
That's not to say that it's never okay to introduce additional complexity - it obviously is - but it's a bad idea if there's not a compelling reason to do so.
Oh, and if you need evidence that it's not that tough to screw up that calculation... you screwed it up.
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I don't feel it's arbitrary. Precision damage isn't multiplied on a crit, it's as simple as that.You do know what arbitrary means, right?
Ha!
Having just woken up, I was going to reply to Tels, but you beat me to it. : )
Anyway, I'm here to praise Tels. He managed to get this reply from James Jacobs in James' thread, when he asked JJ about Dervish Dance:-
I invented Dervish Dance. I'm delighted to see it get used and talked about.
I know it's not a core book feat... but I really think the swashbuckler needs a Dex to damage option so that it's not a feat that people will obsess over for them.
Nice one, James! : )
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Regarding the ability (or inability) to crit with Precise Strike: How would it stack with the ability to spend one Panache point to double damage? I believe the reason it is listed as precision damage (and thus doesn't double on a crit) is because it can be doubled at will, as long as we have panache to burn. Making it non-precision damage (and thus capable of multiplying on a crit) would probably require the removal of the ability to double it at-will.
I'd be okay with that.
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if you need evidence that it's not that tough to screw up that calculation... you screwed it up.Really? I don't even know why the whole 'reverse-engineering headache' thing is even brought up. As if it's hard to look at a stat block that says, "1d6+11/15-20/x2" and then quickly glance up at the character sheet to see 'Human Swashbuckler 5" and realize, "Oh, 5 of that damage is from Precise Strike, so a Crit is 2d6+8 +5 from Precise Strike".
If people are complaining about how hard it is to reverse engineer Precise Strike on crit damage, I don't think it's Precise Strike that's the problem. It's their ability to use logic, and math, and their schooling that is the issue.
Exactly!
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Even though a lot of people ask for Dex-to-damage, I hope again it will not be one of the major revisions to the class. Because as stated and argued multiple times, this addition would only pigeon-hole the whole class into the same damn builds, and there is no need for that considering we already have tools to make the swashbuckler a versatile class.
Precise Strike feels awesome, and I wonder how balanced it would be to just let it multiply on a crit. I get the feeling it will be nerfed by the inclusion of Dex-to-damage, reducing yet again the current coolness factor of the class.
I've seen Stephen Radney-MacFarland say that this bonus would not multiply, because you already get a way to double this bonus damage, and the designers do not want another way to multiply this bonus in a weird fashion...
=> But here is an idea I'm wondering about : what if Precise Strike granted a bonus to all damage rolls equal to your level, not stacking with Str and Dex modifiers to damage rolls, although multipliable on a crit ; and spending 1 point of panache didn't double this bonus to damage, but did grant you instead a critical hit that you should then confirm on your next attack roll ?
- This revision would allow a greater average damage output when not spending panache thanks to the multipliable bonus...
- ... thus improving the class's current lack of damage
- there would be no multiple damage outputs stacking (you may even increase the panache cost to 2 points for x3 weapons, 3 points for x4 weapons to balance out these crit multipliers)
- high crit multipliers would deal higher damage but only recover a single point of panache IF the crit is confirmed, unlike x2 weapons which would cost only 1 point to activate but would recover this point IF the crit is confirmed (balancing out spike damage output/average damage output and granting incentive to wield low crit-range weapons for nova swashbucklers, thus improving again the versatility of the class and its builds as a whole)
- this would make Dex and Str modifier to damage unnecessary to be relevant, though investing in any of these would have its own drawbacks and strengths. See my previous posts arguing about why this deed and Dex/Str modifier should not stack for the sake of the class's versatility, especially since this design also self-balances choices when it will come to build a unique swashbuckler for each player.
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Some playtesting notes:
Campaign: Skulls and Shackles
Level: One
Build: 20-Point Buy
Hinatoro Lashton
Kitsune swashbuckler 1
Str 9, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 16
Panache / Day (3 Points)
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Average Damage: 2–3 points per round
Notes:
— Weapon Finesse required at 1st level; GM agreed to let me retrain at Level 2. Why doesn't the Swashbuckler get Weapon Finesse right away?
— Predictions correct; build options are incredibly limited. Wanted to do a pirate-style swashbuckler; not possible because the cutlass is not a light weapon.
— Thankfully only had about one encounter per day on the ship; one use of Parry / Riptose left me completely empty for panache points. Felt lame.
— Interestingly enough, Darring-Do refers to Signature Deed. Guess Stephen REALLY wants that table in there.
— GM is a gunslinger player. Made me stop calling the class feature 'panache' after realizing that it was the same as grit. Thought the name change was arbitrary and wanted to "call it like it is."
Comments:
Swashbuckler was fun to play, but I felt like I was forced to sit on my panache. It was off-putting that I absolutely had to take Weapon Finesse as my first level feat even though I would be getting it later. (Which I did.) It was odd that despite being a Dexterity-based class, the Swashbuckler's version of Weapon Finesse is actually worse than the feat itself, and the class is not versatile in terms of what weapons it uses. After playing the class, I can see the concern that most will consider Dervish Dance mandatory for Swashbucklers; no modifier to damage hurts the class and asking Swashbucklers to stack Strength for damage seems cruel.
Suggestions:
Swashbuckler Level 1 is pretty terrible. Fighters get a choice of a feat, Gunslingers get Gunsmith (and a free weapon) on top of deeds and grit. Swashbucklers only get deeds and grit, and they don't get the one iconic feat that the class needs until Level 2. Weapon Finesse needs to be given to the Swashbuckler at Level One. No questions asked.
Although the tagline, "Dex-based fighter" is a broad concept worthy of a base class, the Swashbuckler in practice is incredibly limited and probably would only ever get played in conjunction with the rapier or scimitar (if your GM allows Dervish Dance). I suggest the following changes:
Swashbuckler's Finesse: At 1st level, a swashbuckler receives Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. While wearing no armor or light armor and wielding no weapons in his off-hand, a swashbuckler may use his Dexterity modifier in place of his Strength on attack rolls made with any light or one-handed weapon that he is proficient with.
Swashbuckler Training: At 5th level, a swashbuckler selects one light or one-handed weapon that he is proficient with. He may add his Dexterity bonus on damage rolls made with the selected weapon in place of his Strength. The swashbuckler may apply this benefit to one additional weapon for every four levels beyond 5th that he attains.
These changes will expand the number of swashbuckler builds that people will try without necessarily making Dervish Dance obsolete; the big advantage of taking Dervish Dance would be getting Dex to damage 3 levels earlier, allowing you more multiclass freedom if you desired it. It would also allow more interesting character builds that were previous impossible to surface, like the Dexterous Rhonin. (Kenshin's portrayal in Rhonin Kenshin or Jack in Samurai Jack both come to mind.) I could also see the class taking the OotS Elan route and adding Charisma to damage instead of Dexterity, if the developers feel that too much is being stacked onto Dexterity. This does come with its own dangers, however, as you can currently make Charisma do a LOT for a character. 5 Levels of Swashbuckler, 2 of Paladin, and 1 of Oracle would allow you to add Charisma on damage rolls, saving throw, AC, and CMD. Just a musing.
At later levels, Signature Deed on Precise Strike will probably be mandatory for the optimizers. The way precise strike is worded would probably break the swashbuckler's damage, though I've made no builds testing this yet. Many gunslinger deeds have wordage that forbids Signature Deed from applying to them; this seems like a situation where the same restriction would be justifiable.
Several key swashbucklers characters are not possible with this build, namely the sword-and-dagger build as well as the sword-and-pistol build. Hopefully archetypes (along with one for two-weapon fighting with katanas / curved elven blades) will fix this.
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What makes me laugh is look at the Arcanist and then the Swashbuckler. You can tell which one devs were concerned about breaking people's games.
It makes me laugh to think that Dex fighting apparently needed to be nerfed so badly, especially given that speed is more important than strength in real fighting.
In contrast, WOTC is making Dex to attack and damage a feature of light weapons in Next. I would rather prefer that as a solution for avoiding players dipping Swashbuckler.
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Given that an ability score of 18 is easily achievable (with a racial bonus), then any Str-based martial can use a greatsword to have 2d6+6 at first level, becoming 2d6+9 with Power Attack, which you automatically qualify for.
The first level barbarian rages for 2d6+9, with PA 2d6+12.
Why are the devs afraid of allowing Dex to damage? Even if allowed at 1st, and even if Finesse is also free at 1st, the swashbuckler does 1d6+4, or 1d6+6 if using Power Attack, a feat which involves a serious Str investment on such a MAD class.
Barbarian: 2d6+9 = fine
Swashbuckler: 1d6+4 = totally overpowered?
What makes me laugh is look at the Arcanist and then the Swashbuckler. You can tell which one devs were concerned about breaking people's games.
That's just a general 3rd edition problem. I'm not sure anything can be done by now, except give mid to high level martial classes their own version of Ki Points and Qinggong Monk.
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To Maxximilius:
If I have this correctly, you're arguing against Dex to damage because it narrows the range of competent Swashbuckler builds into just Dex fighters.
May I remind you that this class is billed as the Dex melee fighter, so if everyone is a Dex build they probably did it right. If you want versatility, the Fighter class already exists. This class is aiming for a particular niche, and it has to be able to do it better than a fighter or a rogue for the class to have any reason to exist.
If every Swashbuckler is pigeonholed into a Dex build the class is doing what it is supposed to. Right now my 5 CHA / 10 DEX dwarf swashbuckler (Grumpy MacGrumperson) is wrecking face with a heavy pick and full plate (the only class feature you lose for not wearing light armor is Nimble, and I suppose 2 bonus feats to get to heavy). So far, he's doing an immensely better job than my Dex/Cha builds if I only use the Core books (no Agile weapons or Dervish Dance). That gives you the "versatility" of builds I suppose, but it also goes against everything this class is supposed to be.
Perhaps I have misinterpreted you, but my point remains valid. Hoping to get some serious playtesting in with my brother before Thanksgiving so I can try out some more realistic scenarios.
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As I said earlier, it may sound harsh, but if you want to play Strength based melee, you can play literally any other melee class. Though it should ideally support many different builds, this ought to be the one Dexterity based melee class.
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Regarding the ability (or inability) to crit with Precise Strike: How would it stack with the ability to spend one Panache point to double damage? I believe the reason it is listed as precision damage (and thus doesn't double on a crit) is because it can be doubled at will, as long as we have panache to burn. Making it non-precision damage (and thus capable of multiplying on a crit) would probably require the removal of the ability to double it at-will.
As for the comparison with the Smite Evil ability or the Cavalier Challenge ability (both of which add level to damage), it doesn't work for a reason: Those are limited by uses/day, whereas the Shwashbuckler is limited by monster vulnerabilities only. As a matter of fact, I'd rather have the Swashbuckler be Calavier/Gunslinger (Rather than Fighter/Gunslinger) just for the Challenges alone. Throw that glove around!
I would rather remove the doubling-damage-for-a-panache and let the Precise Strike damage multiply on critical hits, so that it encourages builds with x3 crit modifier weapons. The weapon selection is already severely limited for the Swashbuckler, but if we allow more options to get their maximum effectiveness, then so much the better.
As for the unlimited use of Precise Strike... I know this might sound insane... but the limited daily uses of abilities aren't really an issue. A class's damage math is balanced for when they are running at maximum effectiveness. Play the game with unlimited barbarian rages, smites, a ranger getting his highest favored enemy bonus against all creatures, and with sneak attack working on everything without needing to flank it or deny its Dex. It will not break the Challenge Rating system, because characters are assumed to activate everything they need to beat an encounter.
That being said, taking away limitations like that would be bad for the game, because it removes interesting tactical and strategic gameplay. So I am not suggesting doing that.
But where limitations don't make sense, they shouldn't be there. A swashbuckler should be able to land his precise-strike damage all day long, like a Rogue can land sneak attacks all day long. The rogue is limited to flanked and denied-dex targets purely for flavor reasons, because the rogue is supposed to be a dirty fighter that gangs up on opponents or shivs them from ambush. A swashbuckler just fights with his flourishy, dexterous style, all day long, so there is no flavor basis for limiting the damage. And the reason why a precise strike damage should multiply and sneak attack should not, is because one is a static bonus to damage, and the other adds dice. That is the only reason from a mechanical point of view.
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As I said earlier, it may sound harsh, but if you want to play Strength based melee, you can play literally any other melee class. Though it should ideally support many different builds, this ought to be the one Dexterity based melee class.I mostly agree in principal, but I hope that at least some of the archetypes allow for alternative weapon choices (two handed swords only, for instance, or possibly heavy blades only). Meanwhile, I think perhaps the deeds should be reworded to specify light blades; as in the Fighter weapon group. The saber or cutlass could easily be rapiers reskinned as cutting weapons, or if you have your own homebrew stats you could just add them to the light blades group, and as such they'd be included in all of the deeds.
I heartily agree. Let's change the Swashbuckler to using "light and one-handed weapons of the blades weapon group (as per the fighter's weapon groups)". This can only add to the "Fighter half" of this hybrid class, and reinforces the actual archetype the class is trying to represent (all dex-based sword fighters) rather than one specific example of that archetype (rapier fighters, and doing it poorly at that).
Don't like how that would include the Swashbuckler being able to "fence" with a longsword? Well I don't like how the current Swashbuckler is able to "fence" with a morningstar or trident.
Take your pick.
I am also voicing my desire for a Two-Weapon Fighting Swashbuckler build/archetype. I mean really, the rules for using a light weapon in your off-hand making TWF easier (less penalties) is based entirely off historical warriors that were more Swashbuckler than Fighter. Saber and main gauche? That's totally a swashbuckler thing to do. Florentine style. Two-Weapon Fighting is an "archetype" (in the English dictionary sense, not a game term) of the Swashbuckler, so let it be part of the class.
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To do:
Pick up baby from daycare
Pick up milk
Rotate tires
watch sunset
I think its pretty obvious what the priority on that to do list is. Anything that means you don't get the baby will just have to go. In this case the point of the class is to make a dashing charismatic fighter who relies more on agility than brute force. If your options are failing at doing that or failing to provide for a strength based build then oh well, play a fighter, a monk, or a rogue
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I thought there was a Swashbuckler class in the Tome of Secrets(?)or the Tome of ........?
Are there going to be 2 classes with the same name or will this be an archetype of the same named class?
Tome of Secrets ids not a Paizo product it is produced by a 3rd party publisher and therefore is irrelevant to this discussion.
If someone wants to play a longsword Swashbuckler that uses Str to hit, but gets Dex as a bonus to damage from their "fencing training," I don't think that's a problem thematically or in terms of balance. Given the swashbuckler's strong relationship in fiction not only with rapiers, cutlasses, sabers, and guns, but also with quarterstaves and pollaxes, I think two-handed options should be viable if not perfectly optimized. I think a guy in a doublet and a steel morion attacking with his halberd using Power Attack and gaining Dex to damage, making use of his panache, is a valid Swashbuckler archetype. So is a marauding gnoll, wielding twin handaxes and painting the ground red.
If it involves:
- Panache
- Light or no armor
- Some pre-eminence of Dexterity
it should be a valid Swashbuckler.
I was working on building a Swashbuckler for PFS, but I'm hesitating on playing the character now that I've realized that the character will only be doing 1d6 damage per hit until he reaches level 3. I was planning to play a race with a strength penalty, so I can't really bump my strength higher than 10 without sacrificing my other stats.
Normally a class with low starting damage like that will at least have something to help it along like sneak attack or flurry of blows.
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To Maxximilius:
If I have this correctly, you're arguing against Dex to damage because it narrows the range of competent Swashbuckler builds into just Dex fighters.
May I remind you that this class is billed as the Dex melee fighter, so if everyone is a Dex build they probably did it right. If you want versatility, the Fighter class already exists. This class is aiming for a particular niche, and it has to be able to do it better than a fighter or a rogue for the class to have any reason to exist.
If every Swashbuckler is pigeonholed into a Dex build the class is doing what it is supposed to. Right now my 5 CHA / 10 DEX dwarf swashbuckler (Grumpy MacGrumperson) is wrecking face with a heavy pick and full plate (the only class feature you lose for not wearing light armor is Nimble, and I suppose 2 bonus feats to get to heavy). So far, he's doing an immensely better job than my Dex/Cha builds if I only use the Core books (no Agile weapons or Dervish Dance). That gives you the "versatility" of builds I suppose, but it also goes against everything this class is supposed to be.
You indeed missed my point. I'll explain myself in clearer terms : I'm not against Dex-to-damage because I want to be able to do Str-based/Cha-dumped swashbucklers. At all.
Quite the total opposite : what I'd like to be able to do with a swashbuckler is to create agile and charismatic characters, whose fighting styles are different and each rewarding and gimping in their own way. Look at the fighter : if you build a TWFing fighter, it's likely you'll dump your feats into it, leaving not much for saving throws or mobility. Likewise, building a pure THF will leave much to be desired for your AC and versatility when grappled.
Note that each of these melee styles depends on high Strength and Constitution or Dexterity for efficiency - yet this system is ideal because it allows for a great variety of builds. You are limited in terms of stats but not choices.
Now let's take a look at the current swashbuckler's basics :
- you are expected to fight with high Dexterity because of the concept (fluff), Swash Finesse and AoO-based deeds (crunch)
- you are expected to have incredibly high Charisma for the concept (fluff) and just to both use your Deeds at least once per day -and- keep relevant damage (crunch)
- you cannot TWF without losing your major damage bonus
- you recover panache with critical hits and killing hits
- you improve the critical range of your weapons
With that in mind, let's take a look at the weapons which will be absolute no-brainers for any swashbuckler :
- Rapier : 1d6 18-20x2, finesseable, allows for shield in off hand. Highest damage dice and crit range.
- Scimitar : 1d6 18-20x2, becomes finesseable AND can be wielded TH AND grants Dex to damage with a single feat but no shield allowed. Highest total damage output and crit range for 1 feat tax.
Why are you shoe-horned into these choices ?
- Wielding any other lower crit-range weapon drastically reduces your income of Panache points, which you will need to perform your class features.
- Wielding a scimitar grants you Dex bonus to damage, stacking with Precise Strike. Or if you just decide to go two-handed for one round, Power Attack suddenly gives you a base +6 damage at 4th level instead, letting you dump Dexterity and Charisma too. Not even accounting for the fact a lot of people in this thread asked for a way to make precise strike work with slashing weapons so the feat tax is no more.
Now, granting Dex to damage for all weapons would mean this damage would be multiplied on a crit, so the rapier and scimitar become even more no-brainers, especially if the later can still be wielded one-handed.
While this would at least avoid the "everyone picks Dervish Dance" issue, it would also mean damage bonuses which multiply on a crit would become even better.
I'm all for a damage boost so the class stays relevant outside of Precise Strike, but I fear adding Dex-to-damage would both require to nerf this deed which adds tactical options especially with mobile builds, and yet again shoe-horn the builds into only wielding weapons with a high crit-range.
There are simple solutions to this issue :
- Make Precise Strike's damage multiplying on a crit and add to it a way to perform critical hits easier (maybe the Precise Strike deed may allow you to spend 1/2/3 panache points to perform a critical hit on the next attack instead of doubling your level to damage on the next attack ? You would still have to confirm the crit on your next attack roll, but your choice to wield a 20x3/20x4 weapon would get rewarded by this damage spike and possibility to recover panache with both the crit and a possible killing blow.)
- Grant a higher critical range to x2 multiplier weapons you wield, up to a 18-20 base crit range
Ideally, I'd like to be able to play a swashbuckler who can wield a rapier and a buckler, a scimitar with a free hand, a finesseable longsword with Power Attack, two weapons, or a sword-and-cloak.
All these builds would be Dex- and Cha- based, but some would have more or less AC, more or less reflex, a higher or lower amount of panache being consumed at different speeds, better or lower saving throw or damage outputs. Basically, I'd like versatility in my choice of weapons.
And Dex to damage alone as a solution would only shoe-horn all swashbucklers into wielding rapiers and scimitars.
What makes me laugh is look at the Arcanist and then the Swashbuckler. You can tell which one devs were concerned about breaking people's games.That's just a general 3rd edition problem. I'm not sure anything can be done by now
Well, it's not hard to give dex melee classes dex to attack and damage. That can be done now, just look at the gunslinger or the dervish bard.
Sadly, even if a swashbuckler was given dex to damage and could attack touch AC, they would still be noticeably weaker than the gunslinger simply from the advantages of ranged combat.
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Excuse my laziness but I don't have time to pour over 17 pages of posts.
Lemme just jump in with a quick question:
Do the swashbuckler's class abilities stack with all the duelist's? I can see swashbuckler/duelist being a fun combo to work with, though you'd have to forgo the buckler to make it work.
unclear.
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I do not understand the absolute determination of some that substituting dexterity for strength when rolling damage is somehow unreasonable.
If this does not happen, Swashbuckler is a Strength class. Period.
The option given, as it stands, is that you can focus on a dex to get hit bonuses, or you can focus on strength to get hit bonuses and damage bonuses. There really is no choice here. Strength is the way to go.
There are only two reasons for a fighter to have a high dex: Two-weapon fighting and ranged weapons. That is all. And the swashbuckler does not get those options.
If the Devs want players to build Dex based swashbucklers, then they need to allow Dex to damage. Otherwise strength will win every... single... time. The only people playing a Dex based swashbuckler will be those who are either fooled by the trap or willing to be dramatically sub-optimal to fit their flavor.
So why the vitriol against it? Is the concern about this really about some corner case dip into Swashbuckler? Seriously? Because that is a terrible reason to mangle a class. Might as well rip that 1st level bonus feat off of fighters, and suspend their access to HAP and MWP until level 4 right?
Look at the gunslinger... that class gets Dex to damage on weapons that normally get NO ability score bonus. They are getting dex to damage and they CAN use TWF feats. They get to fire at range, they hit touch AC, they don't need a secondary stat to get deadly aim (swashbucklers will still need 13 Str that only helps their CMD to get Power Attack).
I mean WHAT is the argument here? That swashbucklers should all be Str-based? Because that is what they are as currently presented. They are a strength based class with Charisma as a dump stat, and dex doesn't matter in the slightest.
If you want to build a finesse fighter then build a finesse fighter!
I have already covered it, but the damage from Precise Strikes only makes up for the single 1-handed weapon restriction, and nothing else.
Adding dex to damage only does one thing, it makes the Swashbuckler a melee class that actually focuses on Dexterity. It is NOT some overpowered concept that breaks this class. If the concern is truly that dipping will become a nightmare, then use the Duelist Canny Defense progression (1 point of dex per level) or place the ability at level 4.
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The second part of Precise Strike allows you to spend 1 Panache point to add 1 damage per swashbuckler level, and we're led to believe that this is why we shouldn't allow this deed's bonus to damage to multiply on a crit.
Yet, IRL, a rapier nickels and dimes you to death....until the blade goes right through! Which is quite common due to the narrow point and mechanics of a thrust, and great strength is not required, just accuracy.
Instead of the Panache point doubling the bonus damage with the cost of not multiplying on a crit, how about the spent point adding one to the crit multiplier, and all flat damage is multiplied?
I only read the first 400 or so posts and haven't play-tested this yet, but it seems like the swashbuckler could use a lot of tweaks.
Definitely give it Weapon Finesse at 1st level, or better yet, a bonus combat feat, so it can choose Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, or even Weapon Focus if someone decides to make a Strong Swashbuckler.
Re-name Panache Grit. It will make it a lot easier for everyone.
And grant Grit equal to 1/2 your level + your Charisma modifier. And give the class some other mechanical reasons for a high Charisma, like Charisma modifier to all Will Saves or Charisma to hit points or AC or something. Ditto for Int, like Int to CMB or Initiative.
I would suggest dropping the Bravery, and possibly the bonus feats, and grant the class something like Rogue Talents. That way, there can be a lot of different variety of builds: Str & Dex, Dex & Int, Dex & Cha, etc. etc. Some of these abilities can be bonus feats, or tricks, or "cheats" like using Int instead of Str for Power Attack and its related feat chains, etc. etc.
Also, give the class a way to do more damage when it moves. Maybe something like the 3.5 Scout's skirmish ability.
I think the purpose of the class should really be examined. I always picture a swashbuckler as someone who uses a light weapon and mobility to be effective in combat, while being witty and/or charming. I also think they should have effective ways to really make the use of combat maneuvers (dirty trick, disarm, trip, etc.) as effective as just dishing out damage.
I also think it would be neat if the swashbuckler could be a martial, non-magical, battlefield controller. This could be done by making it harder to tumble past swashbucklers, increasing their threatened area by lunging, treating threatened areas as difficult terrain, a way to affect multiple opponents at once with combat maneuvers (whirlwind dirty trick/disarm/trip). Also ways to give conditions to opponents, like shaken, staggered, stunned, slowed, dazed, etc.
Alternatively, since there are so many different visions of swashbucklers, there might need to be a whole book of swashbucklers, rakes, pirates, buccaneers, knife-fighters, masked vigilantes, pistoleers, sword dancers, etc. etc.
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Allowing Cha to replace Int for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites for Combat Feats and Prestige Classes with no spell cast progression would go a long way to make Cha more useful and give Swashbuckler an incentive to grab those maneuvers that we all associate with the Class, such as Disarm, Feint, Trip and Dirty Trick.
Adding Cha to initiative would be cool too, to give the sense that the Swashbuckler makes such a grand entrance that his opponents are taken aghast by his flair.
Another ideas would be adding Cha to attack rolls made to confirm critical.
Mobility:
- Increase speed to 40ft, maybe. Probably steps on the Barbarian's toes.
- Allow Swashbucklers to add Cha modifier to Acrobatics Escape Artist checks and AC/CMD against AoO caused by moving through a threatened square would make them much better at doing the acrobatic stuff we expect from such a nimble character.
- In fact, adding Cha to AC and CMD when not donning armor would be cool. Not all Swashbucklers want armor, after all.
- Add Charisma instead of Wisdom to will saves. Better yet, make this a feat, so charismatic Fighters finally become viable.
Possible uses for Panache:
- Move unimpeded through difficult terrain
- Move as a swift action (This would be unique and really cool)
- Add Cha to attack and/or damage rolls
- Reroll a failed save or skill check
- Add a bonus equal to Swashbuckler level to a Dex or Cha based skill check
- Draw an weapon (or pick it up from the floor) as a free action and without provoking AoO.
- Stand up from prone as a free action and without provoking AoO.
- Get an extra attack
Buckler vs. Light Shield
One thing about what shield swashbucklers should use. Since a Pathfinder buckler lets you use the hand for other things, it must be a wrist-mounted shield, not one held in the hand. So a fencing shield really ought to be more of a light shield. A small shield can also be used to attack, which was one characteristic of historical bucklers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler (And what wikipedia calls a buckler is a small shield held in one hand and usable for punching, what Pathfinder calls a light shield).
Well, Pathfinder is not a historical simulation, so this is a minor point
I'd like to second Lemmy's ideas for Panache. They offer the mobility and versitility that the swashbuckler currently lacks.
I'd also like to suggest that this class moves away from a single weapon focus. Two-weapon fighting would certainly help some of the damage output concerns.
Agreed. I like the use of Panache to add to mobility too.
Maybe a high-level usage for Panache would be to take a second 5-foot hop as a swift action. That would help the swashbuckler be "more mobile" than a fighter.
OK, before sitting down to this next round of testing, I'd like to weigh in on this last page or so...
Precise Strike works amazingly well as it stands. The damage it adds closely follows what you're losing out on from the hand that's tied behind your back, and the level by level wobbling of the needle in how it does is a lot more interesting than if it just directly followed suit by adding the extra 0.5x damage based on str (or dex) and power attack would.
The fact that it doesn't multiply on the (much more common) crits is also good. It delivers a good chunk of that balanced-but-with-a-jumpy-needle play, and if I'm reading things right, as soon as you hit level 11, you can slap signature deed on it, freeing up your crit-connected panache point for other things and allowing you to double the bonus on the first hit of every round, so long as you aren't doing something else with your swift action. It comes a little later than other full-BAB classes getting access to Improved Critical but again, I like seeing the pendulum swing back and forth a little on a level by level basis.
That being said, it is very much worth stressing, once again, that the extra damage from precise strike only compensates for the damage lost by adopting a one-handed fighting style and the peculiar interaction of crits and panache. It does not, by any stretch of the imagination, come close to acting as compensation for adding a low-or-negative str mod to damage, nor to losing out on power attack, which is absolutely a requirement for any full BAB melee class* to properly function at higher levels. Nor should it. This class works just as well with a two-weapon fighting style, which gives up the benefit of the feature as it stands.
* I would say "any melee class" but rogues are the obvious exception. The mechanics of the feat diminish the returns in obvious ways with 3/4 BAB, and the bulk of their damage comes from sneak attack dice, not their fixed damage modifier.
Treating a swift action as "free" with precise strike is a little disingenuous incidentally. A big part of why panache feels so mechanically different than grit is how everything on the list is its own action type. Menacing Swordplay was a "free" intimidate check on every hit when it first came up, but only because we were limited to one attack per round and had nothing else for a swift to do. Precise Strike steals that swift away, so we're never using both on the same round. Pommel Swipe also takes a swift, which is more of a fair trade right now, but if we slap the signature deed feat on one or the other, we can pretty well write off the other forever. This kinda seems to be the rule with panache as it stands. You have this nice tantalizingly expanding list of features, but in practice it's not an expanding list of options so much as a series of (usually easy) calls on which one or two abilities you're going to keep in your pocket and which is getting written off forever. There's a lot of tweaks needed to get them playing nice with the action economy, or for ever having a real reason to want more than 2 max panache.
All that said, let's level up Debbie to 8 already and start in on chapter 3 of this AP.
Her raw dex is up to 20, if we had a lot more stat points to play with, it'd be up to 22. So hey, could we actually have swung that? Well, ignoring the fact that charisma is currently totally a stat that can be dumped with this class, because like with dex over strength, dervish dance, and the crane style feats, we're trying to build Debbie "properly." Intuitive calls the average player will be inclined to make based on how the class looks like it should work, not the big dumb meathead with a scimitar or two it's actually good for as is. So keeping cha at 14, maxing out dex... we could have gone 7/20/8/13/7/14. Maybe flip con and int there if you disagree with the value I'm placing on int based feats. Either way, 20 Dex Debbie is a mess. Power attack, which we still want ASAP, is now locked behind a maxed out belt of physical perfection, essentially. Her Fort and Will saves are as garbage as ever, if not worse, but now she's wearing even less armor (she's just too weak to wear it), and makes weight-juggling on magic items harder around when she's going to want to go nudist anyway. CMD suffers too. And what does she even gain from this? She hits a little more often when finesse is on the table, but hitting things has never been a problem. If she gets dex to damage, hey, she's sort of on par with a min-maxed fighter on that front, but nobody is asking for dex in place of str at level 1 (gotta swat those rogues and monks away from the cookie jar a little) so... she's sure as heck not fighting with a rapier at level 1. Even her crits wouldn't hurt with a -4 slapped on the dice. She'd have to forgo the buckler AND rapier, and just use a crossbow early on. Wasn't the whole idea behind these classes that prestige classes and multiclassing were terrible ways to build a character, because you can't start off playing what you wanted to play, and had to do some weird other thing until all the pieces were in place? Anyway, Minmax Debbie would, theoretically, outperform original recipe, slightly, at very high levels, if you ignore the sacrifice to saves or int, in that you sort of outgrow the weight problem, and buy your way around some of the other issues once money is no longer an object. And obviously there's the weird quirk that this class' stat needs call for only a single good stat, but with a demanding minimum on everything else. So the higher you get on the point buy scale, the less you scream in agony. Bring the save stats up to 12 and 25 point Debbie's not too shabby, but I'd still prefer not to go any lower than a 9 on str. It's too much of a late-blooming class to be waiting even longer.
Equipment: +1 Agile Rapier, +3 Cloak of Resistance, +4 Belt'o'Dex, masterwork buckler, padded armor (leather works just as well, but it's 5 lbs. less, room to grow stat wise, and 12 flatfooted AC isn't really better than an 11 at this level). Belt's a pricy purchase, but we want to upgrade it later with some str. AC's down from last level, mainly because the buckler's downgraded to cheat the wealth table less blatantly but we've kinda plateaued. The 16000 in the belt could be spread out across the buckler and, at this point, bracers of armor to get it up in the mid-20s but a str build with decent armor can swing that no problem, with the added perk of not becoming paste when caught off guard. Probably want to buy a crossbow now too since she can carry one or two more things without the studded leather weighing her down.
Even with combat reflexes turning into a +3, at this level Debbie's trading blows. If she had really cranked her AC, a few of these would miss her, but she has the HP to take the hits, so whatever. Even with the pricy upgrade to add more dex with the rapier, she only hits for 1d6+16 (2d6+24 crit right now). She's really getting pouty again about her lack of power attack, and taking 4 rounds or more to take down things that should drop in one or two without anyone's help. And again, they hit back hard and consistently now. Worse, last level's new deeds are too costly to use beyond maybe a pommel swipe now and then, so these prolonged battles are getting real dull.
Her bonus feat went to step up and strike by the way. She'd meant to grab it earlier, but didn't have a bonus feat at 6, and got distracted with agile maneuvers last level. Not that anyone cares about her puny damage to want to back away anymore. x3 crits are nasty, but that's true for everyone... oh, here's a mage to get up in the face of, but concentration checks are getting easy enough for monsters Debbie's puny hits don't necessarily interrupt casting. Few more meat and potatoes fights and... here's another monster who can completely exploit her laughable saves... also joining the long list of things immune to mind-effecting things so no intimidation here, and with a mountain of HP to hack through. You know those healing potions all AP monsters carry but never use because you kill'em too fast? Against Debbie they're absolutely worth pulling out now and then.
Here's a chance for skills to shine. That's a little pick me up, but doesn't really make up for her combat shortcomings. Derring-Do could see some use here, but it's really just a security blanket. It's a blind roll like parry, and really it's not much of a bonus. It can turn an almost-sure thing into a sure thing, and if you have a check you just flat out cannot pass, you can pull a hail marry and pray you get some exploding 6s, but the odds of it happening are awful. With how little it matters how rarely it comes up, and how much it hurts spending panache, I think this would work better on the precise strike model. Limit it to working when properly equipped (light or no armor), make it an always-on ability, with the option to spend a point for an extra d6. Makes it too tempting for dips I suppose, but so does fixing parry/riposte. Swap levels on this deed pile and swashbuckler finesse and it's all good though. Level 1 swashbucklers don't have any real tricks, but hit consistently, at level 2 they get a couple novelty features to distract them, at level 3 they get the good stuff, then at 4 they start actually doing damage (ideally). Might even be something to be said for putting the always-on deed extravaganza on 4, giving dex to damage at 3, and generally shifting new deeds to even levels which, lets face it, are incredibly dead as it stands.
Is it a deed level yet? Nope. Training level though. More damage is always appreciated. Improved Unarmed Combat is our feat, all this money's going into defense. We have an extra expensive +4 cloak which STILL isn't nearly enough to ever pass a save that counts (Will is only a +4), the +1 buckler again, and Debbie has gone ahead and abandoned modesty to become a fashionable nudist with a part of +2 bracers of armor instead of what "armor" she could still benefit from. 24 AC, 27 with expertise. Which gives most monsters around here a 50/50 shot.
Here's a trick that's new for Debbie, regeneration. Normally, a non-issue at this level. A proper fighter hits hard enough it can't keep up, casters and smart archers can stop it with energy damage, weirdos in between can at least pull out an emergency stash of acid flasks or alchemist's fire from their backpack. Debbie doesn't have one of those, although really at this point a handy haversack full of supplies would be a wise investment. If, you know, all her money wasn't tied up trying to keep her alive with these saves. Past those...
I'm kidding of course. With super high dex, Debbie's good for a while before losing 1d4 a round really has her reduced to a floppy pile of jelly. Fight's going to be over LONG before that becomes a serious issue. No no no, the real worst part is that next round it can pin her, and just apply this squeeze damage along with its special behead attack. 74 HP is a lot, but she is powerless to resist and her AC's no help. 2 rounds of that and her head pops off like a grape.
Hopefully one of Debbie's allies can slap her with some freedom of movement and avoid that whole grizzly mess. If that's the case, this plays out like every single enemy fight. Debbie trades blows and stalls for time until someone else in the party gets around to killing it somehow.
So that sucked. And you know what else sucks? Hitting level 10 as a swashbuckler. This level up is basically just giving Debbie a giant middle finger. BAB and precise strike happen every level. Otherwise all she gets here is +1 reflex, for a +18 that's just complete overkill now, especially next to the other two saves which are frankly jokes despite all the cash she's sank trying to shore them up, and a third dose of bravery. Great. Really. Just what she always wanted.
Not much going on at level 10 in the test AP, but this is noteworthy. Debbie can take down a frost wight pretty well right now. For anyone else, a +14 touch attack is an automatic hit, but if Debbie fights smart, she's barely going to get her levels drained at all!
One last noteworthy thing before hitting level 11. What can Debbie do against a dragon?
Alone? Jack squat. It flies, it has a breath weapon. Debbie can only stab while adjacent. She can use a bow, but she can't use one effectively. Arrows will land, but she can't swing a big ol' composite longbow and put some oomph behind them like a barbarian, she can't make it a secondary priority like a fighter or a ranger. Can't go nuts with shuriken like a monk. She is truly a one-trick pony. Her only hope here is if someone can cast flight on her, or the dragon is kind enough to land, and she can go stab happy as usual. "As usual" being the thing where she does piddling damage and gets torn to bits because this sort of crazy AC is maybe a 50/50 shot at dodging a given attack, and those hit dice just keep piling up.
Level 11 should be interesting, deeds wise, but we are halfway through a campaign here and there's been... 2 or 3 levels out of 10 at which Debbie was not a depressingly useless character. She wasn't even good at those levels, just not falling crippling far behind a comparable character of a similar class (or even this one with a str build). Mostly, the levels in question just felt fun because she crawled her way out of one of dealing with one of her many crippling liabilities, not from actually gaining anything.
[Snip]
**OFFICIAL UPDATES**
[Snip]
• In the Precise Strike deed, change the second sentence to "To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler." Delete the third sentence. Only creatures immune to sneak attacks are immune to precise strike. In the second paragraph, replace the first sentence with the following: "As a swift action, a swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point to double her precise strike's damage bonus on the next attack". Add the following to the end of the paragraph: The cost of this deed cannot be reduced by the Signature Deed feat, or any other ability that reduces the amount of panache this deed costs".
[Snip]
(Sorry if this is a repost)
... So this means we can use Signature Deed for Opportune Parry & reposte?
OK, before sitting down to this next round of testing, I'd like to weigh in on this last page or so...
*SNIP*
Thanks for your continuing playtest info! For those of us that haven't been able to playtest as much (or at as high of a level), this is very useful.
I'm a bit confused, though. I've seen multiple playtest threads on the Swashbuckler with wildly different results. Some are pretty harsh in their criticism of the class (especially at low levels... an opinion that I share), while others have presented results that suggest the swashbuckler is over-powered and out-damages a fighter. It seems to me that both of these results cannot possibly be reconciled without admiting that this class is broken. The mechanics of a class cannot support such wildly divergent results and be sound.
I will say that, as a Dex-based fighter, the swashbuckler falls incredibly short. The mechanics have to be adjusted to incentivise Dex and minimize Str builds... otherwise the great potential of this class will be completely for naught.
If you both use Power Attack or Piranha Strike and are adding your accuracy stat to damage, while taking Specialization and the like, you will get very different results than Debbie. In fact, Debbie seems to be intentionally avoiding all feats that add to damage--Googleshng has posted entire builds, which is awesome, so look at them carefully. Debbie doesn't even take Weapon Specialization or even Weapon Focus. Defense-wise, a quick glance also notices that Debbie has spent 4000 gold on Bracers of Armor +2, when a 10 gp Leather Armor is equally powerful except against incorporeal touch attacks, and Debbie has 7 Wisdom. EDIT: Didn't see the total +7 Dex because it was in temporary modifiers, so actually the Bracers are 1 AC better than unenchanted leather. +1 Mithral Chain Shirt is still 2 AC better for half the cost and no ACP. Wand of Mage Armor with an arcane buddy to cast is 2 AC better for even less. +1 Ring of Protection with Leather armor is half the price of the Bracers and gives the exact same benefits to AC and Touch AC as the Bracers.
If Swashbuckler was offensively buffed to make Debbie do as much damage as Fred, it will turn Sally into a monster or worse a Dervish or agile-user who also takes all the damage feats into some kind of god of war with both better AC and damage than the fighter. For all that the fighter made by A Man in Black used in my and Kolokotroni's playtest has come under attack for being "underoptimized" due to not using books beyond the CRB, Googleshng's Swashbuckler is extremely underoptimized compared to Sally or Fred. And that's OK--we want to see builds of all power types in these playtests. But we shouldn't assume that Debbie's weaknesses represent a weakness in the class itself.
So saying that Debbie proves that Swashbucklers do low damage is a very odd claim, since she is optimized to do as low damage as possible in her feat selection. It does prove that if you build a Swashbuckler that spends every last feat on things that lower accuracy (Combat Expertise) or don't affect accuracy or damage in any way, the class features on their own won't do it for you.
Saying, for instance, that Bravery is not enough to counteract the Swashbuckler's low base Will save even against Fear effects is less clear from Debbie alone because she also has a 7 Wisdom.
EDIT: Oh, also I think everyone agrees that Swash are weak at level 1 and 2, except maybe Str Swash. They aren't level 1 or 2 Investigator level of weak in combat, but they still won't put out very much damage at all.
I have a couple of days off starting tomorrow, so I'll write up a few Swashbucklers and see how they stack up against a Fighter and a Barbarian.
Also, Dizzying Defense is pretty bad. Total defense can't be combined with Combat Expertise or fighting defensively — And because Crane Style is so good, everyone will be fighting defensively for +4 AC by this level anyway.
Depending on your DM, Total Defense makes you much worse at defending yourself because you can't make attacks of opportunity. This could be interpreted as preventing you from using Opportune Parry since it uses an Attack of Opportunity and makes an attack roll.
And for all this, it costs you Panache and a Swift Action. This comes at the level when full casters get 8th level spells and Spell Perfection.
Although it's too soon for this, I'm going to assume when the archetypes come out, there will be a Two-weapon Fighting variant. I mean, you can already do it (at the cost of loosing Precise Strike), but it'd be cool to see deeds exclusive to that archetype.
Forget Two Weapons. I wanna see a variant that specializes in double weapons!
Or maybe an archetype for a drunken duelist, sorta like Inigo Montoya
Inigo never fought drunk.
Wasn't the whole idea behind these classes that prestige classes and multiclassing were terrible ways to build a character, because you can't start off playing what you wanted to play, and had to do some weird other thing until all the pieces were in place?
This is a very good way of summing up the current problem with the Swashbuckler. You don't get to play what you want to until you gain some levels.