I'm still wondering why not allow access to all rogue talents, then add a few slayer-specific ones? Then the rogue can get a 'slayer's Skill' rogue trick like with the ninja.Because it makes actual rogues really sad when you allow yet another class to choose any rogue talent.
What if we all pitched in and bought the rogue a puppy?
* Also, I hope this hasn't been brought up already on this thread (nor shot down!) but how about opening up Combat feats for Slayer Talents? Ok, so they are the domain of the fighter, but still - is the Slayer a combat oriented killer or what? ;)
The slayer can take a combat feat already as a talent, but she can only do that once.
Adding ranger's combat style as a talent tree would extend this (in a limited fasion)I built a level 7 slayer for a game tonight with finesse slayer. When I realised that my dex was only one point higher I looked to swap it with something else I realised there was nothing else on the list I wanted
I've not yet had the chanc to read the entire thread, but has anyone suggested the possibility of having the slayer qualify for sneak attack in some fashion against their favored enemy without flanking or stealth? Maybe the quarry would be sneak attackable at 17th level or something?
I've not yet had the chanc to read the entire thread, but has anyone suggested the possibility of having the slayer qualify for sneak attack in some fashion against their favored enemy without flanking or stealth? Maybe the quarry would be sneak attackable at 17th level or something?
The advanced slayers talent 'hunter's suprise' grants this once per day
I've not yet had the chanc to read the entire thread, but has anyone suggested the possibility of having the slayer qualify for sneak attack in some fashion against their favored enemy without flanking or stealth? Maybe the quarry would be sneak attackable at 17th level or something?
There has been a lot of that, yes.
It is a bit of a puzzler. You don't want to make a class that gets super simple sneak attacks (in an unlimited way) or the rogue is going to feel pretty terrible (IMO the rogue and monk should both just be full BAB classes, but that is for another thread)
So, some limited way to do this would be great, but it can't be automatic or simple enough to make it seem like the Slayer is "better" at sneak attacking than a rogue is.
Personally, I would like to see:
Swift action feint on a favored target (balanced by the fact that it takes one action to study and one action to feint... even at 10th you would have to spend a swift and a move to do this in one round)
Prereq free access to shatter defenses (via a talent)
Something like scouts charge or skirmisher on favored targets as a talent.
First attack against a favored target gets sneak attack once per target per day (ie you couldn't study a target, attack, drop the study as a free action, study again and get the free sneak attack again on the same target)
I really don't get why the developers are looking at replacing the Investigator's Sneak Attack with something more appropriate for the class' theme but they haven't indicated something similar to the Slayer.
Bane's been brought up a few times and that would seem perfect to me. Actually the whole Slayer concept would work well as a Ranger/Inquisitor hybrid as well.
I'd be more than willing to give up some of the damage die for something more consistent.
Here here.
I think that sneak attack should be replaced by a limited use ability (bane would work REALLY well here, as would the inquisitor's monster knowledge) for both the Slayer and Inquisitor.
Why?
Well, two reasons.
1. Sneak attack is a bit of a white elephant. It is good. It can be nice to have. It also requires other party members to help or for you to spend a bunch of feats to get it to work. My running analogy for this is that it is like Ikea furniture. Some assembly is required.
2. If both the Slayer and Inquisitor have limited uses, they can justify easier conditions, AND the rogue gets to be the only class with unlimited sneak attack... so the rogue gets to be the undisputed king of sneak attack even though it has a lower BAB.
Definitely on board with a Bane-like ability, especially if it is as generic as Favored Target is compared to the Ranger's Favored Enemy - Slayer's Bane could be tweaked to be situationally useful rather than stuck to Types or alignments, species etc...
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At 4th and 8th level give the Slayer the Slayers Charge [Scout Archtype]
and at 8th give them Skirmishing Attack [Scouts 8th level] This would take care of the Slayers need to flank to get sneak attack.
Give the slayer a talent that adds acrobatics and climb to their favored target bonuses.
As slayers are DPR oriented give them and advanced talent that increases their sneak attack die type to d8.
Give the Slayer a mid-level talent that gives them the bonus feat Critical focus.
Definitely on board with a Bane-like ability, especially if it is as generic as Favored Target is compared to the Ranger's Favored Enemy - Slayer's Bane could be tweaked to be situationally useful rather than stuck to Types or alignments, species etc...Yeah I like that.
Bane actually sounds spot on for this class. Fits like a glove.
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I agree, "bane" fits like a glove.
I've been playing a slayer a few sessions now and feel overtaxed spending points on knowledge skills to be trained on identifying the stuff that I am going to kill and trying to be a compotent adventurer who invests in climb, bluff, survival, perception and the like. Some kind of monster identification bonus would really make the slayer feel more like an archetypical slayer.
The first two levels were a bit difficult. As fun as favored target has been, there arent many things that distinguish a level one or two slayer from a vanilla warrior. I wound up taking combat trick at level 2 to get heavy armor proficiency. There were other interesting options, but without sneak attack I didn't want spend a level with what were essentially dead abilities.
The DM and I have had a lot of fun with favored target. He sees it as an opportunity to describe the monster further.
I've been having trouble making my saving throws against my favored targets. Maybe some kind of bonus to saves against favored targets abilities is in order.
I like favored target as a move action at level one, but around level 3-5 I think swift activation should be a possibility.
I like the swashbuckler's finesse's effect on crit range, I think if the slayer got an ability that inscreases crit range against favored targets around 2nd or 4th level wold really make the class feel more rewarding.
When I had a fellow party member help me by blinding my foes with the mudball spell the sneak attack damage came in handy. It seems at low levels that it the extra damage is nice when it happens, but that it just does not trigger very often. I don't feel that it fits thematicaly for someone who calls theemselves a slayer to need someone to set up a flank every time they want to get their extra precision damage in.
Maybe expand favored target's utility by allowing a move action to study your favored target and deny them their dexterity bonus to AC against your next attack if made before the start of your next turn. That could become a swift action and apply to all attacks that round at 6th level, and then a free action at level 11 or so.
I really would have enjoyed an ability like that in one of my more drawn out battles at second level.
"Further study" medhanics could actually be really cool, I'd like to see more options like that from tallents and/or baked into the base mechanic.
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TLDR
I know dipping us discouraged but I sometimes like to do useing a full bab class to sure up the attack rolls of divine casters or alchemists. As it stands now, I cannot justify taking slayer at all. I super rarely take more than 4 levels and usually only 1 or 2 on non caster classes. So I will not take slayer as a mini class and it is nit attractive enough to take 1, 2, 3, or 4. Lowering that sneak attack to level two, even if still on a 1/3 or even 1/4 level scale would go far in making at least worth considering dipping compared to 2 ftr feats or a bbn rage power.
I like favored target a great deal. Like the move action economy over so Damn many many standard action activations. Like that it works on anything. I hope there is a feat or magic item that let's a 1st or second level slayer use it like he was 5th with the boosted ability if that level. Saw an item or two like that for stuff like ftr bravery and I think at least ind other class in APG. It would also be similar to a monks belt, a core item.
Would that possible hunter trick of ranger combat style feats ignor the feat requirements? If so, nice. If not it is a waste of space. Same as rogue talent for finess when they and can grab finess via the combat feat trick. Or is finess and these ranger feats poi.Ted out to make brand new players who know nothing go look it up and think, hey that would be a ggid choice?
Oh! I forgot to mention, my biggest issue while playtesting was getting through DR. If my character had not had 20 strength, a two handed weapon and power attack I would have had a very bad time at trying to slay the undead.
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Oh! I forgot to mention, my biggest issue while playtesting was getting through DR. If my character had not had 20 strength, a two handed weapon and power attack I would have had a very bad time at trying to slay the undead.
Well DR at low levels is kinda supposed to make you switch weapons. If you don't carry a couple of sidearms your kinda asking for it.
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Guess what I picked for the Number 1 thing I'd like to change ;).
That slayers get proficiency with mithral waffle irons?
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Archomedes: Archery does have its own set of tools to deal with the undead. Aside from Bane, there is also Arrow (raining)
Cost: 30 Gold
Type: Alchemical Weapon
Elves of Golarion, Pg 23
@ ArenCordial: Correction, Real slayers get durable adamantine arrows.
Cost: 1 Gold
Type: Alchemical Weapon
Elves of Golarion, Pg 22
That slayers get proficiency with mithral waffle irons?Guess what I picked for the Number 1 thing I'd like to change ;).
I wanted Craft (Underwater Basket Weaving)
Do elves still get a +2 bonus when they use leafy greens?
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Okay, I just got done looking over the Slayer and...meh.
I'm praying to god they don't fall into the same trap they did with the Rogue, making talents boring and not worth taking. Serious, the best ones are "Get a Feat" repeated over and over again (Combat Trick, Finesse Slayer, Firearm Training, Grit(but two feats here!), Weapon Training) These were barely passable on a 3/4ths BAB frame, but on a full BAB character, they're completely redundant. If I wanted a full BAB character who got feats as a class feature, I'd have been a Fighter.
Most of the others are so lame as to make me feel bad about them existing (Camouflage, Foil Scrutiny, Hard to Fool, Rogue Crawl), with only a handful that really feel unique or special (Snap Shot, Sniper's Eye)
I don't want to come down as overly critical, as I really love the idea for this class, but the talents are KILLING any chance of me wanting to play is it.
I'm also aboard the Bane Train as to how to change Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack is really kludgey and giving it to more classes isn't going to make it better. I feel like it should slowly be phased out of the game, something that simply remains with the Rogue and the Vivisectionist.
All this "Once per day" is just very painful to read, especially for the best things the Slayer can do. Hunter's Surprise would be so much better if it was Int/Wis per day, same with Slayer's Advance. Or a better tweak to Slayer's Advance, let them move their speed as a swift action so they can still full attack, which this class is still required to do.
Onto the good:
I do actually like favored enemy, and it does evoke the flavor that's being looked for. In this sense, it is a design accomplishment.
I've had one of my players play it and rather enjoy this, although I'm voicing his problems along with mine in this post after our sample game. They also agreed with the lacking skill points, as it doesn't feel like it has enough to do anything, which lead to a disconnect in flavor and enjoyment.
Another thing of note that has been mentioned is the lack of Evasion. If the slayer studies his FT then he should be able to completely save against a spell blast from the FT.
Or FT bonus to saves or FT as a dodge bonus to AC.
Because you can't slay something if you're slain :'(
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Another thing of note that has been mentioned is the lack of Evasion. If the slayer studies his FT then he should be able to completely save against a spell blast from the FT.Or FT bonus to saves or FT as a dodge bonus to AC.
Because you can't slay something if you're slain :'(
Quit complaining, you had a replacement character waiting in the very next encounter.
My thoughts on the class, after a read through of both it, and several pages of this discussion:
1) I don't think the Slayer has to have 6 skill points per level, due to a lot of the other perks it gets, such as the full BAB, higher HD, etc. It would be nice to have more skill points, but not necessary.
2) While I see that the designers are thinking about adding in Bluff, it really needs to happen. Not only does Favorite Target give you a bonus to it, but so does Foil Scrutiny.
I also think it should have Diplomacy, to help you hunt down your targets, if they happen to be assassination targets(or your playing that style).
I do not think you need Disable Device or Trapfinding. Neither fit the flavor "I kill people, all people, a lot". Gaining access to Trapfinding via a Talent is cool, as are gaining both via an archetype.
3) I am willing to bet more talents are on the way. I would like to see one give you some form of Invisibility, as that just seems a perfect fit.
I too want to see more Sneak Attack talents, BUT I agree with those who say ones that build off of Favorite Target would be cool as well.
4) Regarding Sneak Attacking, and at times not having a flanking partner to help set it up:
James Jacobs(and possibly others too) has said that Pathfinder is based heavily on the concept that you will more or less always be at the least a party of 4 PCs working together to accomplish your goals and complete "adventures and quests". Thus, relying on an ally to help you defeat the bad guy makes sense.
Just like you expect your party healer to keep the fighter up, the wizard to blast, control or otherwise use magic to deal with foes, etc.
Also, it all depends on your build for just how often you can use sneak attack beyond just flank. I can make a badass sniper or feint machine, and I promise I won't need to be a crazy high level for either.
5) I really want to see a unique capstone for this class. Master Slayer is Master's Strike and Master Hunter combined. The Ninja, which is an alternate class for the Rogue, gets a brand new 20th level ability, so should the Slayer.
I'm still wondering why not allow access to all rogue talents, then add a few slayer-specific ones? Then the rogue can get a 'slayer's Skill' rogue trick like with the ninja.Because it makes actual rogues really sad when you allow yet another class to choose any rogue talent.Think of the Rogues! Why won't anyone think of the Rogues?
:)
I for one am grateful that Sean and the team are limiting access... but hoping the Rogue can access ALL the slayer talents (like those of the investigator). The rogues strength (for a given value of the word "strength" becomes like that of the Fighter and the rogue becomes very open and customisable.
I tink that would be really cool, and give the rogue a place in the class roster again, being a jack of all rogue-alternate-trades and master of none, while investigator, slayer and inja respectively are the more specialized types.
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So, I ran some numbers, making the closest approximation of a Slayer I could with a Ranger to compare DPR numbers. Please feel free to check my math.
I used a Guide/Trapper Ranger (to approximate Favored Target, no Animal Companion, no Spells) and a Slayer for the comparison, taking basically the same feats, using WBL, same weapon/race, against CR 10 average AC of 24, and stats starting 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.
All DPR numbers are calculated assuming they
1) Have a flank
2) Are using Favored Target/Ranger's Focus
The results are disheartening.
Half-Orc Slayer 10
Ability Scores:
STR: 20 (+5) (14 base, +4 belt, +2 level)
DEX: 17 (+3) (15 base, +2 racial)
CON: 13 (+1)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 84 HP
Saving Throws
Fort: +9 Ref: +11 Will: +5
AC: 21 - Touch 14, Flatfooted 18 (+7 +1 breastplate, +3 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Orc Double Axe +19/+19/+14/+14, d8+17+3d6/d8+14+3d6 dmg (19-20/x3)
BAB: +10 CMB: +15 CMD: 29
Feats:
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Improved Critical
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Step Up
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
+3/+3 Orc Double Axe
Belt of +4 str
+1 Breastplate
Cloak of Resistance +1
Ring of protection +1
Half-Orc Ranger 10 (Trapper/Guide)
Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+6) (14 base, +2 racial, +4 belt, +2 level)
DEX: 15 (+2)
CON: 13 (+1)
INT: 10 (+0)
WIS: 12 (+1)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 84 HP
Saving Throws
Fort: +9 Ref: +10 Will: +5
AC: 20 - Touch 13, Flatfooted 18 (+7 +1 breastplate, +2 dex, +1 Ring of Protection)
Attacks: Orc Double Axe +23/+23/+18/+18, d8+21/d8+18 dmg (19-20/x3)
BAB: +10 CMB: +19 CMD: 29
Feats:
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Improved Critical
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Step Up
Two-Weapon Rend
Endurance
Skills:
Stuff
Gear:
+3/+3 Orc Double Axe
Belt of +4 str
+1 Breastplate
Cloak of Resistance +1
Ring of protection +1
Slayer DPR, again with Flank, Favored Target, Sneak Attack = 93.15
Ranger DPR, with Flank, Ranger's Focus = 114.9
Granted, Favored Target is unlimited vs the 4/day right now Ranger's Focus, but this is taking in to account the spell/companion limitations placed on the Ranger, the assumption that the target is able to be SA'd, and 2 fewer skill points per level for the Slayer.
Also granted it ignores other class features:
Woodland Stride, earlier Swift Tracker access, Trapfinding for the Trapper Ranger, the traps available, favored terrains, terrain bond, Ranger's Luck, Wild Empathy, and Ranger's Focus being Swift from lvl 1
vs.
2 available Rogue Talents (having taken weapon training and combat trick), and the ability to FT 3 targets at once, and the skill bonuses from Favored Target
For the class designed purely to be the "take out one target with maximum prejudice", I'm having issues seeing why I would ever take it over a similarly made Ranger.
There are many nice features this class brings to the table, but as they sit they are all offensive features. It would be nice to see some defensive options built into the class talents or abilities. This is supposed to be an intelligence based enemy-stalking combatant, therefore this mentality should shine through in the way it is played. Not just making it feel like a roguey-ranger.
Perhaps something like the ability to trade the favored target bonus for a defensive bonus. Rather than gaining to hit, damage, and many (mostly offensive) skill bonuses, perhaps the slayer could gain a bonus to saves, ac, and defensive skill uses (move sense motive and stealth here) vs. that target alone.
Or as suggested, more knowledge based check related tricks to emphasize it's intelligence focus. In addition the class needs to rely more on it's primary stat, as currently it only has the assassinate ability and the capstone DC related to intelligence.
Remember, unlike the ranger who has a pathological hatred and obsession with a particular group of enemies, the slayer studies his prey, looking for patterns and weaknesses to exploit to give him/her a decisive advantage. Let us feel this process and make him stand out in more than just flavor text. Let us use knowledge checks and perception checks to change the way combat functions. Also remember that intelligent fighting is about more than just doing more direct damage.
Possible additions: Let the slayer spot weaknesses (perception check to reduce AC or DR), allow for the slayer to share his/her insight bonuses with the party, let the slayer study movement (knowledge to gain better position / force the target into a worse position), improve and expand slayer debuff talents like "Slowing Strike" to include multiple types of attacking enemy metrics (like combat maneuvers), create a way for slayer to better manipulate the environment to his/her advantage (make improvised traps like trapper ranger).
Good work so far by all involved, I look forward to where this class goes. Cheers!
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I can personally do without the SA damage if something is added for more consistent damage that does not rely on a flanker.
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Full base attack bonus and sneak attack? This seems like a combination we've been doing our best to avoid since 3.0, doesn't it? It just seems like an obvious no-no.
The whole point of rogues having sneak attack is that they're super deadly, but require precision play, clever positioning, and hit-and-run tactics.
The combination of full BAB, good hit dice, good saves, and medium armor is kind of lazy, isn't it? I predict the munchkins in every group gravitating to the slayer, creating an endless army of two-dimensional murderers, min-maxed for dishing out optimal damage.
Not really, a well built barbarian or two-handed figther could still outdamage a slayer. Sneak attack is good, but a high strength plus two-handed weapon plus power attack and barbarian or fighter goodies is much better.
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Here are my thoughts on the Slayer after playing one at 7th and 15th;
While this class seems pretty good there are some tweaks that would make it as good as a base class;
1) The skill points should be increased to 6/level.
2) There should be more talents to help melee versions of this class so that it's not so ranged/archery focused.
3) While there are talents to pick up more feats there should be bonus feats at at least level 5, 10, and 15 to help round out the class, maybe even limit them to combat feats or something similar to the Ranger's Fighting Style ability.
4) A Slayer should be able to designate all of it's Favorite Target's all at once, instead of the one target per move or swift action that it currently is.
5) Slayer's should get the ability of Slayer's Advance sooner and more often than it currently does. Maybe put off the ability to use Stealth as part of that until later but this should be available sooner and more often I think.
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I played a half-orc slayer 1st level last night. All in all, I liked the class. But it felt like a 1st level ranger instead of having roguish feeling. The favored target ability was pretty cool. I think the sneak attack should be given at 1st level and every 4th level after that. I could have really used something extra with this character.
I really wanted to take the arcanist for a test drive but someone already had taken it. But I'm glad that I got to play this class. I've always liked rogue type classes.
I had no problems with the favored target ability. Use it while out of combat, then move in and start attacking.
...
Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?
...Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?
The Ranger has 2 extra Str on the basis of not needing to meet qualifications for ITWF, and Ranger's Focus is giving +6 at this level vs the Favored Target giving +3.
The Ranger has 2 extra Str on the basis of not needing to meet qualifications for ITWF, and Ranger's Focus is giving +6 at this level vs the Favored Target giving +3....Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?
Man, those results are disheartening.
I mentioned the skill bonuses of FT, but I don't think it at all outweighs the other utility you're losing from Ranger, and again that's assuming you're giving up Spells and the Animal Companion to make them "more equitable."
This test was heavily weighted to the Slayer by being run in a flanking position to allow Sneak Attack and taking the limiting Ranger archetypes. The gap is even wider if the Slayer can't get SA.
So, having played through the first half of Jade Regent #1, favoured target is useful, and pretty good, even. But the grammar of using is kinda bad. "I favour the Goblin Chief" sounds like I'm giving him presents, not lacerations, and a lot of times I end up using phrasing like "I focus on the Goblin Chieftain." so maybe rename it to "Slayer's Focus", but this is arelatively negligible reason, and I understand that it's inheriting the 'Favoured' from the Ranger.
Favored Target has a lot more utility than Ranger's Focus since you get it on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive,and Survival rolls.
And considering the bonus on Knowledge checks, does the Slayer have to see the opponent?
This is rapidly negated by the fact that, while the slayer is conditionally getting +3 to 5 different skill checks by level 10 (essentially only usable against a target that is in front of you), the ranger is getting 20 extra skill points by level 10.
Favored Enemy is essentially tiied with Favored Target for me at level 10 and up. Favored enemies, if chosen well, are very good and outpace favored target when they come up, but once you hit level 10 the ranger can start casting Instant Enemy to really lay down the hurt.
With a few pearls of power and a few levels past 10th the ranger can easily do this in every encounter to get +6/+6
So I would say they are pretty even abilities.
Favored Target has a lot more utility than Ranger's Focus since you get it on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive,and Survival rolls.
And considering the bonus on Knowledge checks, does the Slayer have to see the opponent?
This is rapidly negated by the fact that, while the slayer is conditionally getting +3 to 5 different skill checks by level 10 (essentially only usable against a target that is in front of you), the ranger is getting 20 extra skill points by level 10.
Favored Enemy is essentially tiied with Favored Target for me at level 10 and up. Favored enemies, if chosen well, are very good and outpace favored target when they come up, but once you hit level 10 the ranger can start casting Instant Enemy to really lay down the hurt.
With a few pearls of power and a few levels past 10th the ranger can easily do this in every encounter to get +6/+6So I would say they are pretty even abilities.
but the Ranger gets the ability to use wands without a skill check, the ability to ignore dexterity requirements when dual wielding, a pet that alters action economy by a huge margin, and instant enemy provides much larger bonuses than favored target, plus the ranger gets 2 extra skill points per level. 3 extra if you count the skill point per level their pet gains.
I'm seeing (and experiencing in a PbP) two different, but related issues here:
- Although the utility of the Favored Target's skill bonuses may be a good thing, when the class' name is the "Slayer" I'm looking for a little extra slaying power. As Cheapy said above - PaperStSoapCo's illustration is somewhat disheartening, especially for Slayers that do want to invest in TWF, which my Slayer definitely does.
- when compared to the Ranger, as Umbriere and Lord_Malkov are contributing to my understanding, the Ranger kinda beats the slayer at that utility.
So:
* I would posit that the Slayer, as a killing machine titled character class gets some help meeting certain iconic combat feat prereqs (or bonus feats) and or definitely gets 6 skill points per level. I know in my home game I will definitely be giving them 6 regardless of the official rules. PFS might be a problem for Slayer players with 4 skill points/level.
* Some straight precision damage rather than sneak attack would be interesting, and again calling for a Bane-like ability...
N.B.Just as a personal point of view, I don't agree with posters who think the Slayer needs any Disable Device nor Sleight of Hand type skills. Maybe a tricksy archetype, but not the base...