Increasing the threat range of weapons should make the class less streaky since everyone else also has a chance to amazingly destroy something on a crit but less chance to do so.The purpose of encouraging a martial debuffer/single attack per round is that it moves the slayer farther away from fighter/barbarian territory. It's already a full BAB martial without spells or companion, less than 6 skill points per level, and a consistent damage boost. Which is closer to a fighter or barbarian then rogue or ranger.
Increased threat range makes it less streaky, yes, but you have to admit that relying on a 1 in 4 chance to even trigger the possibility of a crit, followed by having to confirm it, is much less reliable than simply getting a chance to hit it and do damage. Theoretically, high risk (missing) balances high reward (critting), but save that for some kind of gambler class. Slayer, to me, says reliable and hardhitting. That currently seems to be the intent, minus unreliable sneak attack. I understand that any class can crit, but there's a difference between being able to crit, and being reliant on crits. Even if, in becoming reliant, you make crits more, but not very, reliable.
Crits and single attacks have ridiculous anti-synergy.
A focus on debuffing is probably moot because of just how much ridiculously better casters will do it. I know, I know, casters do everything better, but it goes triple for debuffing. If Slayers are close to Barbarians, then make them even stronger, because Barbarians get super cool stuff like Pounce and they eat magic. And a d12 HD. The intent behind Slayer seems to be to make him an ultra-offensive, moderately sturdy martial class. Kind of like a berserker, except Barbarian has already staked out that ground. Given how much Barbarian has expanded in PF, and how much bizarre utility (okay, handful of awesome tricks) they've gathered, I don't think there's anything wrong with a class that does the same thing, but more offensive and narrow. What kind of debuffing would you say is worthwhile in a martial class like this?
Given that these are hybrids, rather than a I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with inhabiting territory already partially claimed by existing classes. Even if it's not the parent classes.
Slayer already has fort as good save
ARGH, I keep on going to the different discussion threads for each class and it's getting me mixed up...
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Since I still think it needs a better way to trigger sneak attack... how about knocking Hunter's Surprise down to a non-advanced talent and changing it thus.
Hunter's Surprise(Ex): As a free action, a Slayer can add his sneak attack damage to all attacks made against a studied target for 1 round, even if he's not flanking it or isn't flat-footed. At the end of the round the target is no longer considered a favored target(this does not prevent the Slayer from studying the target again).
I really like that idea! Though I think that the class needs one more thing.
Rangers have animal companions and spells to seperate from Slayers
Slayers have sneak attack. So they need one more thing.
All other cool things Slayers have, rangers have an equivalent.
Weapon style vs talents
Favored vs favored
Not to mention the very nice skills and skillpoints rangers get.
I like the idea of giving Slayer a bleed that applies to sneak attack equal to dice+int modifier or something.
Increased threat range makes it less streaky, yes, but you have to admit that relying on a 1 in 4 chance to even trigger the possibility of a crit, followed by having to confirm it, is much less reliable than simply getting a chance to hit it and do damage. Theoretically, high risk (missing) balances high reward (critting), but save that for some kind of gambler class. Slayer, to me, says reliable and hardhitting. That currently seems to be the intent, minus unreliable sneak attack. I understand that any class can crit, but there's a difference between being able to crit, and being reliant on crits. Even if, in becoming reliant, you make crits more, but not very, reliable.
My suggestion was RIDICULOUSLY large threat range by adding the only stacking "keen" abilities in the game.
Example:
falchion: 18-20/x2
keen falchion: 15-20/x2
suggested +1 threat ability + keen falchion: 14-20/x2
suggested alternate assassinate + keen falchion: 9-20/x2
+1 threat ability + alternate assassinate + keen falchion: 7-20/x2
So with a weapon optimized for reliable crits it's only a gamble if you can expect to hit on a 2-6 or 2-8 anyway. In most cases i would expect a higher chance of hitting and criting with the ability than hitting on a 3rd iterative at -10 BAB.
I do agree that martial debuffing probably doesn't have much use between casters and combat lasting 2-4 rounds anyway so reducing ability scores or attack bonuses by a couple of points won't change anything.
That said if the debuffs were on the order of dispelling/lose standard action/lose move action then i think it would be worth it.
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Increased threat range makes it less streaky, yes, but you have to admit that relying on a 1 in 4 chance to even trigger the possibility of a crit, followed by having to confirm it, is much less reliable than simply getting a chance to hit it and do damage. Theoretically, high risk (missing) balances high reward (critting), but save that for some kind of gambler class. Slayer, to me, says reliable and hardhitting. That currently seems to be the intent, minus unreliable sneak attack. I understand that any class can crit, but there's a difference between being able to crit, and being reliant on crits. Even if, in becoming reliant, you make crits more, but not very, reliable.My suggestion was RIDICULOUSLY large threat range by adding the only stacking "keen" abilities in the game.
Example:
falchion: 18-20/x2
keen falchion: 15-20/x2
suggested +1 threat ability + keen falchion: 14-20/x2
suggested alternate assassinate + keen falchion: 9-20/x2
+1 threat ability + alternate assassinate + keen falchion: 7-20/x2So with a weapon optimized for reliable crits it's only a gamble if you can expect to hit on a 2-6 or 2-8 anyway. In most cases i would expect a higher chance of hitting and criting with the ability than hitting on a 3rd iterative at -10 BAB.
I do agree that martial debuffing probably doesn't have much use between casters and combat lasting 2-4 rounds anyway so reducing ability scores or attack bonuses by a couple of points won't change anything.
That said if the debuffs were on the order of dispelling/lose standard action/lose move action then i think it would be worth it.
HOLY CRIT RANGE BATMAN!!!
Your suggestion seems more like a very weird archetype or PrC rather than a base class. I would be interested in seeing this happen at some point for a Slayer Archetype, but again, not for the base class.
But then its not really sneak attack. And Barbarians get shield proficiency even though its better to two-hand a weapon.The thing is that the original Sneak Attack is to situational to use. A variant for the Slayer (possibly called "Focused Strike" or "Favored Strike" or something) would be preferred in this case.
Also, this class still seems weird to get Shield proficiency despite the Ranger having it. This class doesn't seem to much like it would need a shield, but I'm not complaining.
acrobatics.Acrobatics doesn't always succeed, and you will fail at some point if the enemy causes you to keep on provoking Attacks of Opportunity.
nothing always succeeds, and why should it? Seems like there isn't much of a game if things always work.
I put a Slayer down below. I'm not usually that good at optimizing with classes as I prefer to just go with what I can find for the class and concept when I level up. The character, however, should be rather good in this case.
Level 15 Two-Weapon Slayer
Ability Scores
STR – 16 (Including +2 from human, +1 From levels)
DEX – 19 (Including +2 from human (Dual Talent), +2 from levels)
CON – 10
INT – 14
WIS – 12
CHA – 13
ALTERNATE HUMAN TRAIT – Dual Talent
Or (Using an Agile Weapon)
STR – 10
DEX – 20 (+2 From Human, +2 from Levels)
CON - 10
INT - 14
WIS - 12
CHA – 14 (+1 from Levels)
Feats
1 – Two–Weapon Fighting
2 (Combat Trick/Finesse Slayer) - Weapon Finesse
3 – Double Slice
5 – Squire (Grants a Cohort at your level -3, becomes -2 at level 7 when Squire become Leadership)
7 – Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8 (Combat Trick) – Power Attack (Stat Block 1)/Piranha Strike (Stat Block 2)
9 – Combat Expertise
11 – Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13 – Gang Up
15 – Two-Weapon Rend
Suggest feats that could go here instead (Improved Crit + Crit feats are always nice, same with Quick Draw)
Slayer Talents
2 – Finesse Slayer/Combat Trick (Weapon Finesse)
4 – Slowing Strike
6 – Fast Stealth
8 – Combat Trick
10 – Hunter's Surprise
12 – Assassinate
14 – Opportunist
Skills and Traits will be discussed later for a Slayer, this is what I have for now.
1 Full-Attack
6 Attacks, using the Cohort to flank.
Damage (weapons will be +1 Longsword and +1 Handaxe, Agile will be added for Stat Block 2. Half off-hand attacks/half main-hand attacks)
Assuming all of them hits the damage would look like this
STAT BLOCK 1
17 (3d8+3) + 15 (3d6+3) + 18 (STR X6) + 4 (Favored Target) + 105 (30d6 (5d6X6) from Sneak Attack X6) + 36 (Rank 4 Power Attack X4.5(Off-hand Attacks)) + 10 (Two-Weapon Rend) = 205 Average
STAT BLOCK 2 (With Agile weapons)
17 (3d8+3) + 15 (3d6+3) + 30 (DEX X6) + 4 (Favored Target) + 105 (30d6 (5d6X6) from Sneak Attack X6) + 36 (Rank 4 Piranha Strike X4.5(Off-hand attacks)) + 6 (Two-Weapon Rend) = 213 Average
For a Two-Weapon Slayer, it is better to make a character that uses both DEX and STR that uses DEX in terms of damage, because, while they may get less damage from TW Rend, they deal 12 more damage from their Ability Score. I also gave the Slayer the Squire/Leadership feat so that they can get either a Damage Sponge to flank with, or another Slayer/Rogue to deal even more Sneak Attack damage with.
EDIT: I forgot about Piranha Strike. I will add that into the damage for Stat Block 2. I also didn't realize that Power Attack and Piranha Strike halve damage for off-hand attacks.
For those of us who'd prefer DEX-based melee slayers, I'd like to recommend the following talent:
Agile Slayer - (prerequisite: Weapon Finesse feat or Finesse Slayer talent) When wearing light or no armor, and when wielding a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat, the slayer can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
The advantages to using this talent (STR being a dump stat and DEX being used for to hit, damage, and AC) would be balanced by the fact that it would require a feat or talent to obtain it, it can't be utilized while wearing medium armor, you couldn't benefit from the 1 1/2 times your DEX modifier that you'd get from a STR-based weapon wielded two-handed, piranha strike does not offer a way to increase it's damage to 1 1/2 times the regular value, as power attack does, and the DEX-based slayer would not receive much benefit from feats like Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend.
I love this, but I fear nobody would ever take anything else.
Guys. Quit being so hung up on Sneak Attack. The Slayer actually doesn't need to shoot for it constantly. Check out my build and look at his damage. He's pretty above average even when hes not sneak attacking. And hes got a REALLY good Attack Bonus.
The Slayer doesn't need to bend over backwards to get his Sneak Attack. He lets the Sneak Attacks come to him.
Okay so lets compare to a regular ranger. The Slayer gives up skill points and all the versatility of the regular ranger to be more "combat focused" right? So it should stand above the regular ranger. As a condition I will use the same point buy, and same items and same style of combat as you did.
** spoiler omitted **...
There was nothing stopping Scavion's build from swapping Combat Reflexes and Opportunist for Two Weapon Rend and Improved Critical. I can't help but notice your build doesn't have those two things. So if your argument hinges on that, then you're not winning anything. All you have left is the animal companion flanking and attacking. But if a slayer is flanking or getting sneak attack by other means, it's accounting for twice as much damage as the AC. The slayer just isn't as guaranteed to have a flank buddy.
It's as if they're two separate but equally valid classes.
And you can't just assume that the AC will play out perfectly every time. It's not always guaranteed to flank, it's not guaranteed to hit, it's not even guaranteed to survive an encounter.
Well, firstly, that AC has the same armor class and ac as the ranger, so if it is dying, the ranger should also be in big trouble.
Yes, I suppose you can talk about table variance, but a ranger has no problem making the checks to handle his companion, and that companion would have six tricks base plus 4 more from companion advancement, so still not an issue.But primarily, what I am saying is that the Slayer is not actually a stronger combatant than a ranger, and since it...
I am unsure of the breadth of this entire argument without actual play testing...but I agree with the sentiment whole heartedly...with what it gives up, it should be a head and shoulders better melee combatant than the Ranger and Rogue, the fact that there is even room for debate is cause for concern. Considering no trap finding, AC,spells, fewer skills etc...
The Ranger and Slayers I made last page also support Lazurin Arborlon. The similarities in damage are too close considering how much else the Ranger has going for it.
For the posted slayer I have a DPR of 19.64
With favored target on 34.16
sneak attack(assumed flanking for +2 49.63
favored target+sneak attack 71.77
FT+SA+power attack 70.25
Just as I thought, with two light weapons power attack is not your friend. That damage is not bad. I still think the ranger is ahead though.
Ranger with same feats and attributes but using favored enemy
+2 28.88
+4 39.88
+6 52.62
but a ranger can also grab two weapon rend at this level. 61.85
His animal companion is another 20 points of DPR so the total is 81.85
If the slayer has 4d6 instead of 3d6 then he is now doing 82.62 points of DPR, barely edging the ranger.
Conclusion: The slayer needs to either do more damage or get more utility so it can compete with the ranger.
I love this, but I fear nobody would ever take anything else.For those of us who'd prefer DEX-based melee slayers, I'd like to recommend the following talent:
Agile Slayer - (prerequisite: Weapon Finesse feat or Finesse Slayer talent) When wearing light or no armor, and when wielding a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat, the slayer can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
The advantages to using this talent (STR being a dump stat and DEX being used for to hit, damage, and AC) would be balanced by the fact that it would require a feat or talent to obtain it, it can't be utilized while wearing medium armor, you couldn't benefit from the 1 1/2 times your DEX modifier that you'd get from a STR-based weapon wielded two-handed, piranha strike does not offer a way to increase it's damage to 1 1/2 times the regular value, as power attack does, and the DEX-based slayer would not receive much benefit from feats like Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend.
I like this, but it should apply to medium armor as well. Being an up front combatant in light armor makes it hard to get a high AC. It would force you into mithral breastplate so you can stay alive. I think allowing double slice to work so you get full dex damage with the off hand works. That way you dont have to boost dex and strength. As the game currently works, you are better off making strength focused TWF builds.
I don't like the like Assassinate being keyed off of intelligence either, and I would like for it to be a class ability, not a talent.
But I guess if we can get dex to damage that frees up intelligence to be boosted.
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My review:
Slayer: C Two levels delayed sneak attack and SA per 3 levels, but full BAB and martial weapon proficiency. Loss of favored enemy, but gained favored target which is more general purpose but consumes a move action to activate (prior to 10th level) and only functions on a single target at first.
While they get a ton of talents, the list of talents available for Slayers is a pretty weak and abbreviated list of rogue talents, with only a couple mediocre new options for their ranger half. It's no Investigator.
Sneak attack is listed twice.
It is very MAD - all stats are used for this class. Why intelligence based saves? It doesn't make sense.
All his high level abilities are very weak. Where the Bloodrager is getting permanent Haste, the Slayer is getting the high level ranger abilities. But not the good ones, like evasion and improved evasion (though evasion is available by spending a talent), but the crappy ones like Swift Tracker.
Favored Target overall is pretty crappy prior to 10th level - spending a move action per target is horrible in action economy. When it becomes a swift action, it's suddenly useful. An untyped +3/+3 bonus is pretty massive for a full BAB class. But that is a lot of dead levels, and there's just nothing else going for it.
This is compounded by the fact that any decent fighter will be rocking some gloves of dueling by level 10, and even if he isn't he gets Weapon Training at 1 point behind the Slayer's Favored Target without every having to spend a swift action. The slayer is going to end up picking a target, killing it and then being stuck in the middle of a full-attack unable to get his FT bonus on a different target.
This also means that things like Cleave and Whirlwind attack are never going to be good options for a slayer.
Guys, let's not say the class is int-based off Assassinate. Or off 4+ skill points. There's currently next to nil keyed off int. But back to my point, which is that Assassinate automatically fails if detected as an enemy. It's cool, and it's flavorful, but it's basically the same as Death Attack and there's no love for Assassins. It's a nice option to have, yeah, but you can't base your stat spread around something that's going to be useless in a majority of combats.
Master Slayer, on the other hand, might be worth cranking int for and getting a DC28+ instant kill every round. There are two problems with this: one, you're playing a character for the purpose of on-demand Fort SoDs, when a caster can do it so much better, if not all day long, to any save and to lots of foes. Two, you only achieve this at level 20, so maybe you get to trivialize the final villain of the campaign, but for the most part the game is over by the time you get there. Capstones aren't something you build around.
I guess Slowing Strike is int-based as well, but that's not that incredible either.
As a melee guy, you need str. Okay, that's a given. Frontliner? Con too, okay. Dex? You need dex as much as a fighter needs dex. Maybe slightly more because you don't get heavy armor. Dump int, wis is useful since will's a weak save, but does nothing else for us, unless you're really, really into tracking. And until we get Bluff as a class skill, cha's out too.
Long story short, you're as MAD as a fighter. Less than a ranger, because you haven't got a casting stat.
@the_lake: That seems like a plain old bad idea. Crit effects can be powerful because crits are fairly rare. If you crit on 7+confirm, all of a sudden no good crit feat can ever be printed again, because while it's a crit feat for Fighters, for you it's a "on half my attacks that hit" feat. Yeah, it's cool, but it just closes off big sweeps of design space for other classes. But yes, as described it would probably be worthwhile. I just can't get behind it anyway.
@vecc: Agile Slayer is just too good, as has been mentioned by others.
My review:
Slayer: C Two levels delayed sneak attack and SA per 3 levels, but full BAB and martial weapon proficiency. Loss of favored enemy, but gained favored target which is more general purpose but consumes a move action to activate (prior to 10th level) and only functions on a single target at first.
While they get a ton of talents, the list of talents available for Slayers is a pretty weak and abbreviated list of rogue talents, with only a couple mediocre new options for their ranger half. It's no Investigator.
Sneak attack is listed twice.
It is very MAD - all stats are used for this class. Why intelligence based saves? It doesn't make sense.
All his high level abilities are very weak. Where the Bloodrager is getting permanent Haste, the Slayer is getting the high level ranger abilities. But not the good ones, like evasion and improved evasion (though evasion is available by spending a talent), but the crappy ones like Swift Tracker.
Favored Target overall is pretty crappy prior to 10th level - spending a move action per target is horrible in action economy. When it becomes a swift action, it's suddenly useful. An untyped +3/+3 bonus is pretty massive for a full BAB class. But that is a lot of dead levels, and there's just nothing else going for it.
The sneak attack listed twice has already been corrected. I just dont remember if it is at the beginning of this thread or the playtest thread. It was noticed before teh book was released, but after it was too late to fix it.
A 28DC is not that much of a threat at level 20. There is always the chance for a nat 1, but that is about it.
Am I the only one that ignores capstones? I actually only look at a class up to 15 or so.
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Not sure if I've ever read a capstone ability...
I don't quite understand all the people complaining that the Slayer is underpowered. To me it seems rather well balanced. A full BAB class really shouldn't be getting a full SA progression, and what's the point of Sneak Attack when you have a mechanism for automatically applying it? Where's the fun in that from a character optimization/tactical combat perspective.
Also DPR comparisons with the Ranger are difficult as they both rely on so many situational factors but I'm pretty sure the build I posted a few pages back compares quite well to a similarly constructed ranger.
My main gripe with the class is Favored target, which to me seems like it could be solved better somehow. Maybe you should look more towards a variant of Ranger's Focus which I have found a very good ability. Swift action activation, limited number of uses per day and better bonuses especially for skills would be my suggestion.
I'm also of the opinion that proficiency with medium armor should be removed and replaced with some other minor out of combat boon in order to provide the class with a bit more versatility. It would also make it feel more roguish. Then again removing medium armor proficiency makes STR based builds less viable and reduces the flexibility of the class.
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This is compounded by the fact that any decent fighter will be rocking some gloves of dueling by level 10, and even if he isn't he gets Weapon Training at 1 point behind the Slayer's Favored Target without every having to spend a swift action. The slayer is going to end up picking a target, killing it and then being stuck in the middle of a full-attack unable to get his FT bonus on a different target.
This also means that things like Cleave and Whirlwind attack are never going to be good options for a slayer.
Proposed talent or class feature:
Killer's Delight: When a slayer incapacitates or kills a creature that was the target of his focus, he may as a free action study a new target to replace the one he just has slain.
I can already picture in my head a slayer with a maniacal grin plowing through orc after orc after orc...
Killer's Delight: When a slayer incapacitates or kills a creature that was the target of his focus, he may as a free action study a new target to replace the one he just has slain.I can already picture in my head a slayer with a maniacal grin plowing through orc after orc after orc...
This...would immediately fix the Favored Target ability at early levels... and still be of minor use after level ten. Also love the flavor!
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This about the grit talent bugs me:
A slayer must have the firearm training talent to select this talent.
So, does this mean if one gets the feat exotic weapon proficiency firearms via another method (such as the feat available for being a third level character) that the character doesn't qualify for the grit talent because he has the EWP firearms feat but not the firearms training talent?
Note: I recognize that the rogue talent has the same restriction. Has this been addressed somewhere?
Here is another idea I had..If this already exist and I somehow overlooked it then let me know.:)
Talent
Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse
Two Weapon Finesse:If you are using Two Weapon Fighting you may use your dexterity bonus instead of your strength bonus for your attack roll even if your main-hand weapon is a one handed weapon.
PS:Not requiring weapon finesse for this is also not a bad idea.
That allows people to not be stuck to two light weapons, and if we can get a dex(instead of strength) to damage idea pushed this would work well with it.
You know, no one seem to have tested 15 PB level by level... Or if no one can make it work at 15 PB, does that mean it's a failure?
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For the posted slayer I have a DPR of 19.64
With favored target on 34.16
sneak attack(assumed flanking for +2 49.63
favored target+sneak attack 71.77
FT+SA+power attack 70.25
Just as I thought, with two light weapons power attack is not your friend. That damage is not bad. I still think the ranger is ahead though.
Ranger with same feats and attributes but using favored enemy
+2 28.88
+4 39.88
+6 52.62
but a ranger can also grab two weapon rend at this level. 61.85
His animal companion is another 20 points of DPR so the total is 81.85
If the slayer has 4d6 instead of 3d6 then he is now doing 82.62 points of DPR, barely edging the ranger.
Conclusion: The slayer needs to either do more damage or get more utility so it can compete with the ranger.
Eh...what is more likely, a favored enemy or flanking...
Like to like comparisons.
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This is compounded by the fact that any decent fighter will be rocking some gloves of dueling by level 10, and even if he isn't he gets Weapon Training at 1 point behind the Slayer's Favored Target without every having to spend a swift action. The slayer is going to end up picking a target, killing it and then being stuck in the middle of a full-attack unable to get his FT bonus on a different target.
This also means that things like Cleave and Whirlwind attack are never going to be good options for a slayer.
Maybe the answer to this is making a weapon enchantment of favored targeting, +2 enhancement bonus against a slayer's favored target. Similar to the furious enchantment for barbarians.
I put a Slayer down below. I'm not usually that good at optimizing with classes as I prefer to just go with what I can find for the class and concept when I level up. The character, however, should be rather good in this case.
** spoiler omitted **...
Thank you for taking the time that you have so far with a Slayer. I saw you want to compare a ranger, rogue and a slayer. I greatly appreciate you posting your results from those when you have them.
I'm trying to figure out which of the 3 I'm going to take into a Skull & Shackles campaign. I know each has a few more pluses or minuses like rogues with more skills (and certainly some great pirate-like talents) but I'm interested in the combat side too. I do wish the slayer had more talents to choose from as part of this playtest but for now, we understand the core.
Hopefully I'll get to post up some findings as well.
Thanks to all for the ongoing discussions.
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Ranger's Fighting Style would be sweet on the slayer. Also, sneak attack at first, scaling at every 4th level, wouldn't hurt. It'd even be worth it if they scaled back Favored Target to add these features.
After creating my Slayer and Ranger yesterday and running a comparison (post is on previous page) I found that they run similar damage at the same level with the primary differences being that:
+Slayer has Sneak attack
-A ranger with Boon companion has a fully leveled Druid animal companion
-Ranger has spells (including some amazing self buffs)
-Ranger has more skills
+Slayer has more versatile favored target
Overall I found the Ranger to be slightly ahead.
I propose a fun class feature for Slayer that draws similarly to Ranger fighting styles.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Specialized fighting styles that grant bonus feats like the Rangers, but for a different set of themes.
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-Cleaving combat style (bonus cleave feats, surprise follow through, including cleave through)
-Mobile combat style (Dodge, mobility, spring attack,side step, improved initiative, Jaguar pounce)
-Poisonous combat style (poison use, new feats related to poison)
-Feinting combat style (Feint feats)
-Dazzling combat style (Dazzling display, Gory finish, shatter defenses)
-Dirty combatant (Dirty trick feats, quick dirty trick+some others that fit the theme)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also a sneak attack die at level 1 would be most appreciated.
Well instead of ranger styles how about there slaying styles like do they use small edged weapons, poison, strangulation, pressure points, unarmed strike, natural weapons, traps, etc.
Again... if you are giving up 2 skill points per level, favored terrain, spell and an animal companion, you are losing a ton of utility.
There has to be some kind of offensive increase to offset that, this is the SLAYER after all.
Sneak attack aint cutting it,
Favored Target is a fighter's weapon training, sort of.
Before level 10 it is actually pretty awful, and after level 10 it is still limited to one target per round. This justifies the Slayer having a +1 higher bonus, but that is about it.
Maybe the slayer doesn't need some better way to get sneak attack. Maybe they can suffer through the same rigmarole of feat taxes and build focus that rogues are forced to. Fine. But this class definitely needs something
I keep bringing up sneak attack, because that is the dividing line. The slayer is mostly a ranger that loses a ton of features to get a watered down sneak attack. For those of us that have played with sneak attack extensively, the problems with it are self-evident. That doesn't mean that it isn't a boost, but it loses an immense amount of usefulness here.
For a rogue, you are a skill-monkey. You bring tons of skill utility to the group. So its okay for you to only get off one moderately good attack per round. And you can drop a bunch of feats to focus on sneak attack, because you aren't actually expected to be some sort of front line fighter with good sustained damage. The Slayer IS and currently, it is the worst class at doing just that.
Malkov, what is your opinion of the specialized combat style class feature I suggested?
I like it because it really frees up the feat burden and allows you to theme your Slayer more.
The cleaving, feinting, dirty trick, and dazzling styles all would allow more use of sneak attack while rewarding vicious fighting
Malkov, what is your opinion of the specialized combat style class feature I suggested?
I like it because it really frees up the feat burden and allows you to theme your Slayer more.
The cleaving, feinting, dirty trick, and dazzling styles all would allow more use of sneak attack while rewarding vicious fighting
It would be a good step.
As it stands, the Slayer is VERY feat starved. He needs to take all of the standard melee feats, but also needs the feats to power sneak attack.This is not a big deal for a rogue, because a rogue ends up ignoring a lot of the standard melee feats, knowing that they are only getting a few attacks or one attack per round. THey also simply can't qualify for a lot of them early on due to a low BAB.
A good example, the rogue at level 12 who uses two-weapon feint. He doesn't need greater TWF. He doesn't use power attack. He doesn't use Two weapon Rend.
The Slayer needs to get both sets of feats, and the payoff, in terms of actual sneak attack damage, is far lower due to his stunted progression. Where the Rogue is getting 6d6 for his efforts at level 12, the slayer is getting 4d6. This lack of focus one way or another, hurts the Slayer and starves him of valuable feats.
I think that give the Slayer some combat styles or some bonus feats would be very helpful. One could use standard ranger combat styles, or as you had suggested, some new styles that better match the flavor.
Yep, very feat starved, and being a ranger/rogue hybrid, I think something akin to ranger fighting styles would be best. Even whole-cloth, I think ranger fighting styles would be an excellent fit.
For the posted slayer I have a DPR of 19.64
With favored target on 34.16
sneak attack(assumed flanking for +2 49.63
favored target+sneak attack 71.77
FT+SA+power attack 70.25
Just as I thought, with two light weapons power attack is not your friend. That damage is not bad. I still think the ranger is ahead though.
Ranger with same feats and attributes but using favored enemy
+2 28.88
+4 39.88
+6 52.62
but a ranger can also grab two weapon rend at this level. 61.85
His animal companion is another 20 points of DPR so the total is 81.85
If the slayer has 4d6 instead of 3d6 then he is now doing 82.62 points of DPR, barely edging the ranger.
Conclusion: The slayer needs to either do more damage or get more utility so it can compete with the ranger.
Eh...what is more likely, a favored enemy or flanking...
Like to like comparisons.
Once instant enemy comes online it is more likely, and I did the results for 3 favored enemies instead of just the best one to account for the ranger stacks up when he does not get the best possible results. His animal companion also adds damage so those number would be a little higher at +4 and below.
PS:I am not saying your point is not valid. The slayer is more likely to do consistently do more damage.
@wraithstrike: DC28 is just from level 20, 26 int. The reason I threw the plus on there is because I couldn't be bothered to calculate the theoretical maximum off things like ability focus, +5 more int off wishes, et cetera et cetera. I'm confident at level 20 it could have at least a 50% chance of success if you find all the right stuff. It's still a capstone, and it still means 19 dead levels. I'm just saying if for some reason you start a campaign at level 20, it has potential.
@Alex Mack: Rogues have full SA, 3/4 BAB, 8+ skills, Trapfinding, a really long list of talents, and are generally regarded as misery to play. If you benchmark against the Rogue, Slayer's going to wind up just as unpopular. Ranger's Favored Enemy goes to what, +10 on anything you can Instant Enemy, with +10 to hit as well? Smite Evil tops out at +20. So yes, 6d6 is about equal to those, and they're all of limited use or situational. The issue is that Paladins and Rangers get half casting, and a whole slew of class abilities which give them both flavor and utility. As Wraithstrike said (paraphrased), if the Slayer isn't head and shoulders above other similar classes who have lots of utility, something is terribly wrong. In other words, everything Malkov has said while I was writing this post.
@Insain: I think it's a good idea, but there should be both Ranger and Slayer styles available. TWF, Archery (I'm determined to push ranged sneak attack, it'd be super cool), a style that incorporates both what you call Feinting and Dazzling and one other uniquely Slayer, but broadly applicable style. Maybe one based off of Mobility, or AoOs.
I don't like the idea of Ranger styles being available. Rangers are Rangers, Slayers are Slayers.
Mechanically either one will save you the feat taxes, but I prefer fighting schools themed for Slayers.
Rangers are Rangers, and Slayers aren't, but I don't think it's fair to say that "using two weapons" is themed for wilderness trackers who do nature magic, but not for highly trained, sneaky, opportunistic, and anatomically skilled stalker-killers. Equally claimed by Rangers is "using bows" "using one weapon and a shield", "using a weapon while riding another creature", as well as "using natural weapons".
Mechanically, they only save you the feat taxes if you were going in that direction anyway. Every Slayer will use one weapon or two weapons or a ranged weapon. Not every Slayer will be built around using poison, or mobility, and right now the talents don't really support any kind of specialized Slayer combat mechanics, aside from promoting the use of Favored Target. If we can say, for sake of argument, that "using two melee weapons" is thematically Slayer, and that they get a TWF combat style, how would you make it different from the TWF Ranger combat style?
How would you make it different from the TWF Ranger combat style?
I wouldn't. The Slayer is a hybrid of the Ranger and Rogue. I'd go ahead and just give them the Combat Styles for Rangers as written. Just change the name to be Slayer Combat Style and if you really want to put a limit on it for some reason you only gain the benefits of the Combat Style feats when fighting your Favored Target.