I have read several of the posts in this thread but by far not all of them. I want to throw my un-play-tested opinions into the mix as well.
1. Firstly I will talk about Sneak Attack:
I have read a few comments saying Sneak Attack could be done away with. I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen, the Slayer is supposed to be a mix between Rogue and Ranger and I think drawing Sneak Attack from the Rogue class is a key point in that combination. The Slayer needs to be able to use Stealth, surprise and underhanded techniques to his advantage, that’s where SA comes in. But it also comes from the Ranger and so needs some pretty heavy flat combat ability as well, for when Stealth and surprise fail him. Favored Target helps with this but without the Ranger’s spells and animal companion to back it up there needs to be just a little bit more. I like the Slayer’s Bane idea for this.
The concern of low DPR has come up several times, I am not a DPR expert by any means but I would offer a couple possibilities for slightly increasing damage output without drastically changing the class.
a. Begin the Slayer’s SA progression at lvl 2 instead of lvl 3. I saw you mentioned you didn’t want to create over powered dip possibilities from multiclassing with a Rogue, but a lvl 1 Rogue / lvl 2 Slayer would have the same number of SA dice as a lvl 3 Rogue, with only a one point higher BAB. Beginning the SA progression at lvl 2 would give the Slayer access to higher damage potential a little earlier on in those crucial beginning levels and would give them one additional SA die by 20th lvl, for 7d6 vs 6d6. This might give the Slayer the slight boost it needs.
b. Not to be combined with suggestion a. you could instead write a Slayer Talent (or Advanced Talent) or a Slayer specific feat that adds a d6 or two to the Slayer’s Sneak Attack.
c. You could write an ability that turns the Slayers SA d6s into d8s for a specific foe. It could be against all opponents marked as Favored Targets he uses d8s for SA rather than d6s. Or you could roll it into his Quarry ability. This option could possibly be combined with either a. or b.
d. I support the idea of a Slayer’s Bane ability that works in conjunction with their Favored Target ability. This is probably the best way to increase the Slayer’s damage output a little; it can be used with or without Sneak Attack and can thus increase their ability to deal damage outside of SA situations, which seems to be a major concern. It could start at lvl 4 or so as a +1 weapon enhancement and +1d6 damage then improve at level 7 or so to the full +2 enhancement and +2d6. This should probably not be combined with a, b, or c. Again though, I am not a DPR calculations expert.
2. Secondly I will talk about combat:
a. Sneak Attack is great but without support it is hard to make useful in some situations. Suggestions: Put Bluff on their class skills list to help with Feinting. Add Unwitting Ally, Deft Hand, and Underhanded to their talent lists. Add a Hide in Plain Sight ability to their advanced talent list.
b. With the loss of spells, animal companion, combat style feats, and only gaining 6d6 of SA they need more combat power. They especially need the ability to deal competent damage in situation where their Sneak Attack doesn’t work. I like the Slayer’s Bane for this, see point 1d for this.
3. Thirdly I will talk about the Favored Target abilty:
As written I have a few questions about how the ability works.
a. As the Slayer gains levels he can mark more and more targets as favored. Can he target multiple Favored Enemies at once? Or is he stuck studying five times to designate five targets?
b. At 10th level they can designate Favored Targets as a Move or Swift action. If they are only able to designate one target per action of study, can they use both the Move and Swift action in the same turn to designate two targets in the same turn?
c. The Favored Target ability adds it’s bonus to Bluff. So why isn’t Bluff a class skill? More to follow.
I also have a few suggestions for Favored Target.
a. It currently requires a Move Action until level 10, this is too high an action requirement IMO. The Ranger’s favored enemy is automatic with no action requirement and even the Guide Archetype, which this ability most closely resembles, starts out as a Swift Action. I think the Slayer’s ability should begin as a Swift Action as well.
b. The Slayer should be able to mark more than one Favored Targets in the same action as his ability allows him additional targets. Or perhaps make Favored Target a Swift action to begin with and then at level 10 allow them to use Favored Target as a Move Action to designate multiple targets at the same time up to their maximum number available (10th lvl = 3, 15th = 4, 20th = 5).
4. Fourthly I would like to talk about the Slayer’s skills and skill points:
a. The Disguise skill is a class skill which relies on Bluff for validation in social situations. Bluff can be useful for getting close to a target, also for feinting in combat to take advantage of Sneak Attack. The role of the Slayer states: Slayers are elusive(Bluff)[i] and good at finding the opportune time and location to strike [i](Feint/Bluff)[i]. Combining the deadliest talents of rangers and rogues [i](Feint/Bluff/Sneak Attack)[i], a slayer’s abilities are all about getting into combat, dealing with a target, then getting back out again. So my question is, why isn’t Bluff a class skill for the Slayer? It fits perfectly and IMO should be on their list.
b. How did the Slayer end up with only 4+INT skill points per level? This class is supposed to be a combination of two highly skilled classes, the Ranger [i](6+INT) and the Rogue (8+INT), and somehow the Slayer ends up with only 4+INT. There is further justification for at least a 6+INT on top of its parent classes. The Slayer, according to it’s description and role, needs to be a highly skilled class. It is designed to hunt, kill, and survive. It needs a vast knowledge base, stealth, acute senses, the ability to blend into crowds it doesn’t belong in, and the ability to get into places it shouldn’t be. On top of all those needs, it lacks the spells afforded to the Ranger and the magical knack afforded to Rogues. This class is heavily reliant on its skills to fill the role it was given, but doesn’t have nearly the skill points available to support that need. It is apparent that a huge skill deficiency is present in the class. If you look at the parent classes skill point allotments, and if you look at the fact that Rangers have spells that the Slayer doesn’t get and the fact that Rogues have magical talents/advanced talents and the Use Magic Device class skill which the Slayer doesn’t get; IMO I would say this class has a strong justification for 8+INT skill points.
5. Fifthly I will talk about the Slayer’s Talents and Advanced Talents:
Why does the Slayer have Terrain Mastery and Slayer Camouflage, but no Slayer HiPS? Both the Ranger and the Rogue have their own versions of Hide in Plain Sight. This class has Sneak Attack which lends to the idea that it was designed to be rather stealthy. Also it has terrain mastery and its own version of camouflage so why not HiPS?
6. Lastly I will talk about WIS vs. INT:
There was a comment a while back that tying the Slayer’s capstone ability to WIS might be better than INT. If you make it INT it will not only be another tie to the Rogue class beyond Sneak Attack but also allow the Slayer to make up for the low 4+INT skill points currently allotted for the class while still boosting their capstone ability and tying into their Assassinate Advanced Talent. If you make their capstone ability based on WIS, PLEASE, make sure to also change their version of Assassinate talent to be based off WIS as well. To have their capstone based on Wis and one of their major advanced talents based on INT would hit the Slayer with an ability tax and skill weakness he doesn’t need.
Slayer Talents
Impromptu Sneak Attack (Ex): Once per day a slayer can declare one melee or ranged attack she makes to be a sneak attack (the target can be no more than 30 feet distant if the impromptu sneak attack is a ranged attack). The target of an impromptu sneak attack loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against that attack. The power can be used against any target, but creatures that are not subject to critical hits take no extra damage (though they still lose any Dexterity bonus to AC against the attack). The slayer may use this ability one more time per day for every five levels of Slayer.(via Arcane Tricker)
Pressure Points* (Ex): A slayer with this talent can strike at an opponent’s vital pressure points, causing weakness and intense pain. Whenever the slayer deals sneak attack damage, she also deals 1 point of Strength or Dexterity damage, decided by the slayer. Unlike normal ability damage, this damage can be healed by a DC 15 Heal check. Each successful check heals 1 point of damage caused by this trick. A slayer with this trick receives a +10 insight bonus on this Heal check (this talent and the ninja trick of the same name grant this bonus respectively).
Overwhelming Force: Against her favored target, Deadly Aim and Power Attack deal +1 damage, +1 for every 4 points of BAB.
Deft Strike: As a standard action, the slayer may make a single attack against a foe, adding the higher of her Dexterity or Intelligence bonus to damage.
People keep talking about increasing the slayers damage with a bane like ability but why not just increase the damage of favored target?
Boost the slayers damage up without giving them a stronger to hit and incentivizes going into two weapon fighting over rangers who get free feats and fighters that can archetype for pounce.
That would be a really good solution. Probably better to do that than add a whole new ability like Bane.
I also think favored target should be a swift much earlier than level 10. Currently playing a freebooter and I'm spending the same action to give a team wide buff albeit at a single target only. Maybe moving it to a swift at 5 or 6 and then a free at 12 or 14.
Move action is definitely too high. I feel like it should start as a swift action. Then at level 10 or so the Slayer should gain the option to use a Move Action for the ability to designate multiple Favored Targets at the same time.
Wow, I just looked at my post up thread and I really jacked paragraph 4 all up. Here is what I intended it to look likel:
4. Fourthly I would like to talk about the Slayer’s skills and skill points.
a. The Disguise skill is a class skill which relies on Bluff for validation in social situations. Bluff can be useful for getting close to a target, also for feinting in combat to take advantage of Sneak Attack. The role of the Slayer states: Slayers are elusive (Bluff, Stealth, Disguise) and good at finding the opportune time and location to strike (Feint, Bluff, Sneak Attack). Combining the deadliest talents of rangers and rogues (Feint, Bluff, Sneak Attack), a slayer’s abilities are all about getting into combat, dealing with a target, then getting back out again. So my question is, why isn’t Bluff a class skill for the Slayer? It fits perfectly and IMO should be on their list.
b. How did the Slayer end up with only 4+INT skill points per level? This class is supposed to be a combination of two highly skilled classes, the Ranger (6+INT) and the Rogue (8+INT), and somehow the Slayer ends up with only 4+INT. There is further justification for at least a 6+INT on top of its parent classes. The Slayer, according to it’s description and role, needs to be a highly skilled class. It is designed to hunt, kill, and survive. It needs a vast knowledge base, stealth, acute senses, the ability to blend into crowds it doesn’t belong in, and the ability to get into places it shouldn’t be. On top of all those needs, it lacks the spells afforded to the Ranger and the magical knack afforded to Rogues. This class is heavily reliant on its skills to fill the role it was given, but doesn’t have nearly the skill points available to support that need. It is apparent that a huge skill deficiency is present in the class. If you look at the parent classes skill point allotments, and if you look at the fact that Rangers have spells that the Slayer doesn’t get and the fact that Rogues have magical talents/advanced talents and the Use Magic Device class skill which the Slayer doesn’t get; IMO I would say this class has a strong justification for 8+INT skill points.
...
Really, they could use Disable Devise on their class skills list too. They shouldn't get Trapfinding just because it doesn't really fit for them to be disabling magical traps since they have no other magical knacks or spells. Nor should they get the half level bonus to the skill making them full on trap experts. But they should be familiar with mundane traps and locks to a degree which would aide in infiltrating secure sites to find their targets. It can be done without the class skills bonus, but I think it would be a nice addition since some quarry may turtle up in a stronghold of some sort behind pit traps and locked doors.
Alrighty, I have this class fixed in my mind's eye, so here goes:
This class is all about SLAYING, so lets just focus on that and get things reworked
Favored Target Changes
Essentially, everything here is the same with this one addendum.
When the Slayer kills his favored target, he can immediately select a new favored target within 30ft.
This ability replaces sneak attack.
The Slayer is a killer born. He revels in bloodshed and with each target he brings down, his deadliness increases until he is a ferocious killing machine.
Starting at 2nd level, when the Slayer kills his favored target or knocks it unconscious, all of his subsequent weapon attacks against other favored targets deal additional damage. Each time the Slayer defeats a favored target his damage with weapon attacks increases by 1d6 up to the maximum number of dice listed in Table: Slayer. This is precision damage and is not multiplied on a critical hit. The Slayer must be able to see his target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. The Slayer does not receive the damage bonus granted by Fueled by Death against targets that have concealment.
On each turn during which the Slayer does not make an attack the number of bonus dice being granted by Fueled by Death reduces by 1.
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The bonus damage dice would start at 1d6 max at 2nd level and increase by 1d6 at 4th and every even level after to a maximum of 10d6 at 20th level.
The Ranger has 2 extra Str on the basis of not needing to meet qualifications for ITWF, and Ranger's Focus is giving +6 at this level vs the Favored Target giving +3....Why is the ranger's to hit so much higher?In DPR terms I'm not sure if you're actually doing the slayer justice with a STR focus. Weapon Finesse is essentially a free feat. High damage per hit due to SA means that from an optimization perspective you need to prioritize your to hit and you can do that better with a Finesse Build. When doing DPR for Rogues Power Attack will oftentimes lower your DPR this might also be the case for a Slayer.
Building two builds for two different classes with exactly the same feats is usually not gonna be a fair comparison as you should try to compare two optimal builds. What is optimal will vary from class to class...
As promised:
Again, assuming Flank, Sneak Attack, and Favored Target:
Dex Slayer DPR = 113.15Now, this build was done with Point-Buy vs Elite Array, as well as assumed legality of Agile enchantment and Piranha Strike feat.
It STILL loses out to the previously built Ranger, in the same situation.
Ranger DPR, with Flank, Ranger's...
Double Slice per RAW only works on strength not dex. I dont know how much that would affect DPR, and Agile is not in the hardcover books IIRC which may limit its use.
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I kind of like 'Fueled by Death', although it needs a better name -- maybe 'Deathdealer' or something?
Anyway, it would be a unique mechanic and improve his skill at slaying creatures.
If the FT damage bonus is going to remain "static", then I'm fine with the ability upgrading so swiftly. However, if it's going to revised to work like SA, then it's better if this 'Fueled by Death' bonus is a bit smaller; maybe +2d6/+4d6 (like inquisitor's 'Bane/Greater Bane').
I did mention that it's assuming legality of two non-core books, but that's because I was already heavily weighting the distinction towards the Slayer to try and make up the gap. Obviously the Slayer's DPR drops considerably if they're not getting that sneak attack.
As far as Double Slice, it depends on the interaction with Agile. Agile states you can apply your Dex modifier to damage instead of your Str modifier. Double Slice changes the amount of Str modifier applied to your off-hand weapon, and if that's being replaced by Dex due to Agile, it's arguable that the modification applies as well.
Either way, this is a test run to heavily weight things in the Slayer's favor and it's STILL losing out to the Ranger that has had things weighted against it.
Fueled by Death - bag of rats, anyone? Not to mention wonky situational damage now being entirely GM fiat (how many enemies are in an encounter) versus largely player fiat (can someone flank with me? prty plx?). In a party of 4, against 6 opponents, you'll be lucky if you get half of the kills, at which point the fight is over, meaning you never get up to your theoretical maximum unless you have a very support-based party, and/or fight very populous encounters.
Not to mention Slayers, as essentially assassins, really ought to be frontloading their damage, not backloading it.
@PaperStSoapCo: James Jacobs says that Double Slice and Agile don't play nice together. Post here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nkw1?Agile-weapon-double-slice-feat
I suppose it's still arguable, but I tend not to argue with the people who wrote the property.
In other bad news for all, the playtest blog is saying that Slayer's pretty much where they want it, except probably 6 skills a level, and a lot more talents. Looks like SA is here to stay. Also looks like Favored Target is going to be a pain in our giant collective butt until level 10 forever.
Fueled by Death - bag of rats, anyone? Not to mention wonky situational damage now being entirely GM fiat (how many enemies are in an encounter) versus largely player fiat (can someone flank with me? prty plx?). In a party of 4, against 6 opponents, you'll be lucky if you get half of the kills, at which point the fight is over, meaning you never get up to your theoretical maximum unless you have a very support-based party, and/or fight very populous encounters.
Not to mention Slayers, as essentially assassins, really ought to be frontloading their damage, not backloading it.
@PaperStSoapCo: James Jacobs says that Double Slice and Agile don't play nice together. Post here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nkw1?Agile-weapon-double-slice-feat
I suppose it's still arguable, but I tend not to argue with the people who wrote the property.
In other bad news for all, the playtest blog is saying that Slayer's pretty much where they want it, except probably 6 skills a level, and a lot more talents. Looks like SA is here to stay. Also looks like Favored Target is going to be a pain in our giant collective butt until level 10 forever.
Bag of rats indeed.
As I have had a little time to think about it,
What if the ability triggered on death OR critical hits versus "qualifying" opponents who have at least 1/2 the slayer's HD, just like a swashbuckler/gunslinger?
Then you can stack the bonus quicker by getting critical hits, which keeps it valuable in fights with fewer high HD enemies, and you avoid the bag of rats issue.
Its not a perfect solution, but it is something new.
Alternatively, we could use a pool like grit that is also refilled by killing/critting things to simply "activate" the slayer's SA dice on an attack (decision made before the attack).
Godunderscor, I like the idea of Favored Target granting additional bonuses aside from the flat bonus. Even better if it's customizable as you've shown. I think that'd be a great way to give the Slayer the extra combat umph it needs.
So make static bonus damage dice depend on large crit ranges, which only open up at 8 or when you buy Keen. Doesn't the class get rolling slowly enough already? Yeah, I'd much rather some kind of pool like Grit.
Crit talents do sound awesome though. Good call Godunderscor.
Crazy idea for a Slayer damage feature that sort of works thematically. What if instead of Sneak Attack the Slayer could use Vital Strike feats as part of full attack actions?
Limit the # of attacks you can apply Vital Strike to per round by your Favored Target bonus and hand out the feats at the appropriate levels so the Slayer gets damage bumps at the appropriate levels.
Example:
Slayer's Strike [Class Feature]
The Slayer is skilled at quickly identifying and then exploiting an enemy where they are most vulnerable. A Slayer may use a Vital Strike feat as part of a full-attack or Charge action against their Favored Target in addition to its normal use. The Slayer may make a number of attacks using this ability no greater than their favored target bonus per round.At 3rd level they Vital Strike as a bonus feat.
At 6th level they gain Devastating Strike.
At 9th level they gain Assured Strike (may reroll 1 Vital Strike die and take greater roll)
At 12th level they gain Improved Vital Strike
At 15th level they gain Greater Vital Strike
At 18th level they gain Improved Devastating Strike.So at 10th level Slayer would be able to make up to 3 attacks using Vital Strike.
Assuming a longsword that's 1d8+2 extra damage per hit (avg 6.5 per hit).
versus the current Sneak Attack of +3d6 per hit with a condition (avg 10.5 per hit).
Anyway it fits thematically and isn't so flank/feint/etc dependent.
I'd love to see that for a fighter archetype as well--finally, a Big Hit build that WORKS
Perhaps the Slayer should have a bonus to damage or hit if his opponent is isolated.
"ITS JUST ME AND YOU, BUB!"
Maybe at higher levels he's able to supernaturally mark his opponent with a badass arcane tattoo that allows him to track them down or something. That would be cool for a campaign villain to do to a PC.
also, i note a lack of ways to grab rogue or ninja talents on the slayer--real shame, that.
they'd do great being able to grab offensive defense form their roguish predecessor.
also threw together a build:
human slayer 6 / horizon walker 3 / slayer+11
str 16 (5pt +2 race), dex 14 (5pt), con 14 (5pt), int 13 (3pt), wis 10, cha 10
last 2 points into cha or wis as you like, levels into: str/str/int/str/str
traits:
-Militia (+1 to flanking attack bonus)
-???
slayer talents (effective slayer level):
2 - Weapon Training (weapon of choice)
4 - Terrain Mastery (Urban)
6 - Combat Trick (Greater Trip)
11(8) - Camouflage
13(10) - Feat (Dimensional Dervish)
15(12) - Opportunist
17(14) - Evasion
19(16) - Terrain Mastery (???)
feats:
1 - Power Attack, Combat Expertise
3 - Improved Trip
5 - Endurance
7 - Combat Reflexes
9 - Dimensional Agility
11 - Dimensional Assault
13 - Dimensional Savant
15 - ???
17 - ???
19 - ???
sneak attack: 5d6
favored terrains: urban +10, forest +8, astral +6 (with favored enemy bonus to natives there and +30 fly speed in planes with subjective gravity), underground +4, jungle +2,
these bonuses apply to: initiative, knowledge (geography), perception, stealth (additional +4 with camo active), and survival
gear:
weapon of choice (anything works, but weapons with trip for those interested: 1H: sickle, flail 2H: guisarme*, halberd*, heavy flail, horsechopper*, ogre hook, scythe)
ranged weapon of choice (buy durable trip arrows for more hilarity)
mithral breastplate
* - reach weapon
notes:
full BAB + flanking (eventually with yourself) bonus + prone bonus + favored target bonus = the accuracy the rogue wished they had. though it drops off a bit later since tripping gets harder.
gets greater trip + combat reflexes by 7th, dimensional savant by 13th (arguably with opportunist for another free attack, since a flanking ally--there’s an FAQ that you are your own ally--scored a hit!).
Towards the end it’s a bit more Dishonoured and less Assassin’s Creed, but whatever.
seems neat. the terrain mastery picks at the end are mostly filler, but you're getting them from HW already, so why not?
EDIT: wait wait this isnt correct yet, sorry.
EDIT-EDIT: alright NOW it should be correct.
Frankly they incorrectly named this class. It really should be called Stalker, and save Slayer for some Ranger/Inquisitor hybrid if they ever do it.
I actually REALLY like this class except for the name.
I agree, this doesn't feel like a "Slayer" perhaps. A slayer to me is something completely different than how this class feels.
This feels more like what the comment above states, which is like a stalker.
I suppose bounty hunter could work to, though that could be more like a theme or something.
The only complaint I have currently after seeing the updates, is they should rename the class.
I might see it as a bandit...but it has more a feel of someone that hunts down their quarry rather than someone who is a slayer.
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How about "Unskilled-Rogue" =P
Or perhaps, "This is what happens when you trade all of your bonus feats and utility for 1/2 sneak attack progression"
Really though, this class needs help from every angle. As it stands it doesn't really feel like a "slayer". It feels like a brigand class that is not very good at what it is advertised at being good at. Perhaps single target flanking melee-only fighter was a role that needed filling?
I just don't see it. Maybe I am wrong and this will become a new favorite class, but I really doubt it. The IDEA of a full BAB rogue is neat, but the truth is that the Rogue should just be a full BAB class to begin with. It is the side of this class that is dragging things down.
Just as a thought experiment, think of the Slayer, for a moment, as a ranger archetype.
You give up:
Combat Style
Spells
Favored Enemy
Favored Terrain
Hunter's Bond
Evasion/Improved Evasion
Camouflage
Hide in Plain Sight
Woodland Stride
Wild Empathy
Endurance
And you are 3 levels behind on Quarry
You get:
6/10ths Sneak Attack
Limited rogue talents (most of which will be dumped for feats ASAP)
Favored Target (barely better than favored enemy and probably worse until 10th)
Slayer's Advance 1/day
And...ummm... that is it.
The Skirmisher Archetype for Ranger already gets "slayers advance" but they call it Chameleon Step.
And that is assuming that they do put the Slayer up to 6 skills/level. Soooo... yeah that is a terrible trade. If this were indeed an archetype, I can't see too many people picking it. It also goes to show just how devoid of meaningful class features this class really is.
^ Nicely summarizes the biggest issues with the class. It also points out something I hadn't even thought about; how do two classes that get Evasion/Improved combine to create one that gets neither, outside of an advanced talent for the lower version?
Nice breakdown Lord_Malkov.
I've been even more depressed since remembering Feint is a standard action. TWF and Favored Target and wanting to Feint to help me Slay and I need to clone myself. Getting Improved Feint needs Combat Expertise as a prereq. *Sigh*
Maybe give Imp. feint without the prereq...
Extremely well said Lord_Malkov. A tip of the hat to you sir. According to the survey though it seems people think Slayer is one of the most done classes out there. I really wonder how many people actually playtested and how many people took a quick look at the class saw Sneak Attack + Full BAB + non-race tied Favored ability...From what I've seen, most of the feedback is from doing low level playtesting. The differences the classes are hardly apparent before 5th level and a lot of problems don't become readily apparent until around 10th.
I played a first level Warpriest of Erastil and had a blast. I played a 12th level Warpriest of Erastil and it was an absolute chore.
Of course, this is also a class which has Sneak Attack and is leaps and bounds ahead of the Rogue. There are people (myself included) whom love Sneak Attack because they love rolling big handfuls of dice, regardless of how effective it is. Rogue being the "Fool's Gold Standard" of Sneak Attack sets a pretty low bar.
I admit, we have not been able to play over 10th level. The playtest just started not too long ago. How do you play that much unless you don't have anything else to do?
Still...don't think it should be called the slayer.
Call it the Stalker, or Bounty Hunter or something.
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Extremely well said Lord_Malkov. A tip of the hat to you sir. According to the survey though it seems people think Slayer is one of the most done classes out there. I really wonder how many people actually playtested and how many people took a quick look at the class saw Sneak Attack + Full BAB + non-race tied Favored ability...From what I've seen, most of the feedback is from doing low level playtesting. The differences the classes are hardly apparent before 5th level and a lot of problems don't become readily apparent until around 10th.
I played a first level Warpriest of Erastil and had a blast. I played a 12th level Warpriest of Erastil and it was an absolute chore.
Of course, this is also a class which has Sneak Attack and is leaps and bounds ahead of the Rogue. There are people (myself included) whom love Sneak Attack because they love rolling big handfuls of dice, regardless of how effective it is. Rogue being the "Fool's Gold Standard" of Sneak Attack sets a pretty low bar.
There was a very good rogue thread last month that showed a lot of really insteresting rogue builds that totally make that class work. It also showed that the "Scout" archetype does a LOT to fix the rogue's problems.
All a Scout rogue needs to do is move 10ft to get one big sneak attack per round, which is all most rogues need to do anyway.
By level 9 or so, a rogue can combo the following toegether:
Power attack + Furious Focus
A 2d6 Dwarven Longhammer with impact
Vital Strike
Bludgeoner/Sap Adept/Sap Master.
With those feats and abilities, the rogue will move 10 ft and hit for 16d6+10 non-lethal each round (before power attack, str, enchancement or any other damage bonuses). NO other setup required. With, say a 20 strength, power attack and a +1 enhancement bonus, that comes to 16d6+24 (or 80 non-lethal damage on average). That is darn good for level 9, and if non-lethal isn't an option, they are still hitting for 11d6+14 (52.5 avg). Enforcer and Shatter defenses add another wrinkle allowing them to demoralize enemies for ridiculously long periods of time and start making full attacks.
Furious focus means that a level 9 rogue is likely attacking at +12 (+6 bab, +1 weapon training talent, +5 str, +1 weapon) to hit, +14 on the charge. They really aren't doing badly at all for a 3/4 BAB. (and a headband of ninjitsu will add another static +2 to hit)
So, I do not think that the Slayer is leaps and bounds ahead of the rogue for sneak attack. The rogue has more dice and less combat prowess otherwise. If the rogue focuses on getting into flank or using Scout abilities to just get one big attack per round that is fine. If a full BAB class does that, then they are gimping themselves, because they actually have decent iteratives that will result in more damage than a slowed-down SA progression.
Anyway, I maintain my position that you can't just slap sneak attack on a class and expect it to work. It needs to be center stage and it require a lot of build focus to get the most out of it. And when you have full SA progression, that is fine. But am I really going to take a 13 int, combat expertise, improved feint and two-weapon feint just to get 3d6 sneak attack dice at level 10? Am I?
I really don't think so. What are the odds that my last iteratives are any good at that level? With TWF I have 4 attacks at 10th and I have to sacrifice one of them to use the fastest feint in the game. IF all of my other attacks hit, I am getting +31.5 damage out of them. But my 1st mainhand will be hitting for, lets say 1d8 + 14 (+6 power attack, +3 strength, +2 weapon, +3 favored target) for an average of 18.5.
If just ONE of my other attacks miss, I am only getting a +13 damage boost on the whole round for dumping 3 feats and a stat requirement. That does not look good. The thing about rogues is that their damage tends to suck without SA and be decent with it. They are a skill/utility class, so expectations are pretty low, and they are not displacing the Fighter or Barbarian of the group as a frontline fighter. The Slayer doesn't bring any utility to the table so it needs to deal out damage like a barbarian or a fighter or a ranger... and right now it has the worst survivability of the three, deals less damage, and has less utility than anything but the fighter.
I was in that thread, I posted a couple builds.
The thread did not find a lot of "really insteresting [sic] rogue builds that totally make that class work." It found a couple of builds that aren't completely terrible.
That thread is still going because people are still struggling with making the class work.
Furthermore, as was discussed in the thread, that build doesn't work the way you think it does. Sap Adept and Sap Master require that the target be Flat Footed. Flank wont do it, Scout wont do it. Making an opponent Flat Footed is pretty difficult outside of the surprise round. The rest of the time (read: almost all of it) that build does subpar damage with a subpar chance to hit.
Just by virtue of having full BAB and access to additional damage which is not precision damage, the Slayer is leaps and bounds ahead of the Rogue. Full BAB is a really big deal.
What the Slayer could use help with is positioning. They get Acrobatics as a class skill, and are then torn between medium armor and tumbling. Even if they choose light armor to tumble with, they currently don't have access to a couple of the Rogue goodies which make positioning and tumbling easier to accomplish.
Medium armor and Mobility might work, but that is literally the least interesting thing I can think to do with two feats.
edit: Feint is stupid. This is a team game, get a flank going.
I don't want to derail the thread, but:
Scout’s Charge (Ex)
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
Skirmisher (Ex)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
So, sap master does work.
Anyway, just saying "get a flank" is less helpful for a Full BAB class that has to maximize their full-attacks. It is far less of an issue for a rogue that probably won't hit with his second attack anyway. The rogue is also getting about double the damage out of SA, so they have way more to gain and way less to lose by moving themselves into a flanking position.
If full BAB and access to +5 bonus damage spread across 20 levels from favored target is enough to whoop the rogue, then the problem is with the rogue and it means nothing about the quality of THIS class.
Ultimately, as a full BAB class, the Slayer needs to stand next to Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Rangers etc. NOT bards and rogues.
Extremely well said Lord_Malkov. A tip of the hat to you sir. According to the survey though it seems people think Slayer is one of the most done classes out there. I really wonder how many people actually playtested and how many people took a quick look at the class saw Sneak Attack + Full BAB + non-race tied Favored ability...From what I've seen, most of the feedback is from doing low level playtesting. The differences the classes are hardly apparent before 5th level and a lot of problems don't become readily apparent until around 10th.
I played a first level Warpriest of Erastil and had a blast. I played a 12th level Warpriest of Erastil and it was an absolute chore.
Of course, this is also a class which has Sneak Attack and is leaps and bounds ahead of the Rogue. There are people (myself included) whom love Sneak Attack because they love rolling big handfuls of dice, regardless of how effective it is. Rogue being the "Fool's Gold Standard" of Sneak Attack sets a pretty low bar.
Heh I went from 1st Level Slayer "Eh, Favored Target is pretty good."
To 6th level Slayer "Wow it never gets used."
Maybe give Imp. feint without the prereq...
I smell a talent!
I stand corrected about the Scout thing.
Allow me to quote myself:
Of course, this is also a class which has Sneak Attack and is leaps and bounds ahead of the Rogue. There are people (myself included) whom love Sneak Attack because they love rolling big handfuls of dice, regardless of how effective it is. Rogue being the "Fool's Gold Standard" of Sneak Attack sets a pretty low bar.I was just explaining why the class was getting good feedback (especially compared to some of the other classes which are in worse shape), not saying that the class was ready to go. People whom enjoy the mechanic of Sneak Attack have very few options right now. People whom enjoy Sneak Attack and play in good aligned campaigns have one option. Throw people like me a bone and we're likely going to go crazy for it regardless.
I think Focused Target is good mechanically since it is a lower bonus but never 'runs out,' however using it is a huge pain in the butt right now. It isn't "fun" unless you use it before combat even starts and is almost universally better to just full attack.
You do bring up an interesting point about the Flanking. It likely would be better for this class to full attack rather than flank OR use Favored Target right now. Usually, the Rogue is boned if they don't flank so they are encouraged to seek one. The Slayer is currently encouraged to sit there and full attack while hoping an ally gives them a flank. Much less likely unless the team happens to also has a Rogue whom is incentivized to flank.
Though I will assert that the class probably can be safely compared to Rogues. The class has a lot of problems in combat. I really like the positioning element and I really like rolling a handful of dice (maybe I played too much Shadowrun and Whitewolf games during High School). For me, it is better than the Rogue, has more appeal to me than the Fighter due to the mechanics and skills, and is an attractive class option (or, hopefully will be. As stated the class needs
...
Yeah, sneak attack is not the sort of class feature that simply works just because you have it. Rogues know this first hand. It takes a little effort because it is conditional. MOST rogue build attempt to find a way other than Flanking/Surprise Rounds to get sneak attacks in order to increase their options, but whether it is flanking/feinting/sniping/grappling/demoralizing... all of these take away from your ability to make full-attacks. It is just the nature of an ability that requires setup.
The Slayer's problem is that they lose more by interrupting their full-attack cycle and gain less (due to the lowered SA progression). Performance combat may be the best way to build this class since at least then you can use swift actions, but that again is a conditional set of abilities and still overlaps that Slayer's swift action Favored Target (which he will need to use on most rounds)
So, all I am really saying is that sneak attack is less valuable to the Slayer than it is to the rogue. In light of that, and seeing how far behind as a class the Slayer is from the Ranger, I think the Slayer needs serious help.
If the Slayer gets Trapfinding and 6+int skill points per level plus a slew of decent new talents, then I think things will be okay. Ultimately, this needs to be the combat rogue. I am also hoping that they get access to some sort of combat style (even if it is through talents). If this does not happen, then the Slayer doesn't bring the utility that he needs to bring, and fails to be anywhere near as effective as the other true martial full BAB classes.
Additionally, Favored Target can be a move action, but the Slayer should:
(A) Be able to study multiple targets at once (Same progression. 1 at 1st, 2 at 5th, 3 at 10th, etc.)
(B) Be able to study a new target as a free action if he kills his favored target.
ADDENDUM: It might also be a good idea for the Slayer to study a specific creature type rather than a single target. So, in a combat with 4 ogres and an ogre mage, he can study one ogre and get his bonus against all 4 ogres. The ogre mage is a different creature, so it would need a different study action.
Additionally, Favored Target can be a move action, but the Slayer should:
(A) Be able to study multiple targets at once (Same progression. 1 at 1st, 2 at 5th, 3 at 10th, etc.)
(B) Be able to study a new target as a free action if he kills his favored target.
Something like this desperately needs to happen for the Slayer. That and their skills and talents need some help.
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+1 for the improved sneak attack crowd. Sneak attack damage can either be improved to a d8 base or follow a rogue's progression. This talent could address some of the issue with positioning.
Sudden Sneak: Once per day, a slayer with this talent can sneak attack an opponent for one round regardless of whether the opponent qualifies for sneak attack. If using a ranged weapon, the slayer must still be within sneak attack range. A slayer can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 slayer levels he possesses.
Also, could you please make available a list of talents that improve sneak attack, such as deadly sneak, pressure points, ect. that are available to the slayer? It's pretty bad that the only modifier, slowing strike, is also one of the weakest. Personally I feel if you increased the sneak attack progression to that of a rogue, then tied every talent to either weapon proficiencies, combat feats, or sneak attack bonuses, you could push the flavor that while rogues and ninjas have some utility, a slayer is there to get the dirty job done.
Sneak attack + full BAB is the big sell of the class, but you don't get sneak attack until 3rd and no improvements of it until 4th. Assuming you use your 2nd level talent for a combat feat, and of course you will, 1st through 4th is a big of a slog. 5th and 6th level seem like they are pretty sweet for the slayer.
I did a comparison with the ranged slayer. Because the focus is on damage dealing and favored enemy is hard to work into these calculations, I used fighter/rogue instead or ranger/rogue. A side by side comparison:
Garath
Elf Slayer 5
AC 19 (+5 armor, +4 Dex), hit points 42
Attack: longbow +11 (1d8+2/x3) or longbow +9 (1d8+6/x3) (with Deadly Aim) or halberd +7 (1d10+2/x3)
Saves Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +2
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10 (12), Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10
Racial Traits: elven immunities (handy), keen senses (sweet), elven magic (meh), weapon familiarity (meh), and low-light vision (nice)
Class Features: favored target, track, favored target +2, deadly range
Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Rapid Shot
Skills: Acrobatics +12, Climb +9, Knowledge (geography) +6, Perception +9, Ride +9, Stealth +12, Survival +9, Swim +7.
Gear (10,500 gp)
+1 composite Longbow (Str +1) (1d8/x3, range 100 ft)
+1 halberd (1d10+1/x3)
+1 mithril shirt (+5 armor bonus, ACP -0)
belt of mighty constitution +2
Some arrows and waterskin and stuff
Mirror Universe Garath
Elf Fighter 4/Rogue 1
AC 19 (+5 armor, +4 dex), hit points 39
Attack: longbow +10 (1d8+4/x3) or longbow +8 (1d8+8/x3) (with Deadly Aim) or halberd +6 (1d10+2/x3)
Saves Fort +5, Ref +7, Will +2
Str 12, Dex 18, Con 10 (12), Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 10
Racial Traits: elven immunities, keen senses, elven magic, weapon familiarity, and low-light vision
Class Features: bravery, armor training, sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow), Critical Focus
Skills: Acrobatics +12, Knowledge (geography) +6, Climb +6, Perception +9, Ride +8, Stealth +12,
Survival +9, Swim +6.
Gear (10,500 gp)
+1 composite Longbow (Str +1) (1d8+2/x3, range 100 ft)
+1 halberd (1d10+1/x3)
+1 mithril shirt (+5 armor bonus, ACP -0)
belt of mighty constitution +2
Some arrows and waterskin and stuff
Skill totals end up being not that different, thanks to the Slayer's low ranks and my questionable choice to leave the Intelligence boost where it was. At this level, the slayer's single target accuracy is decidedly better, a full +3, thanks to the rogue dip and the fighter not yet having weapon training. The fighter still has a good bonus, does slightly more damage in vanilla situations, and is set up for critical feats down the road, but is not decidedly better. That picture might change in a few levels, when the slayer is more sneak attack reliant, whereas the fighter/rogue has evasion and tops out at +2d6 sneak attack, but continues to accelerate in feat acquisition.
It looks to me that there is a fairly healthy dynamic of at first relying on favored target, and later catching up with nearly full sneak attack progression. I can make basically three complaints. First, the class is a little back-loaded. It doesn't really function as advertised until 3rd or 4th level. Second, there is a profound lack of interesting choices until 4th level. Basically, you have your feats, and then one taste of a talent that will not be overwhelmingly exciting and is probably just a feat that supports either archery or TWF. Third, the skill ranks. The class is expected to cover the same ground as a ranger, skillwise, but doesn't get the same ranks. Even a vanilla fighter/rogue combination like the one I posted comes close to maxing out key slayer skills.
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ADDENDUM: It might also be a good idea for the Slayer to study a specific creature type rather than a single target. So, in a combat with 4 ogres and an ogre mage, he can study one ogre and get his bonus against all 4 ogres. The ogre mage is a different creature, so it would need a different study action.
[Emphasis mine] I like that. Ties into the Ranger parentage...
I feel compelled to say 1/day talents should die a terrible terrible death.
Not a fan of 1/day talents either.
If it's getting a d10 hit die and even more talents to choose from, then this class is perfect in my book. ^__^
ADDENDUM: It might also be a good idea for the Slayer to study a specific creature type rather than a single target. So, in a combat with 4 ogres and an ogre mage, he can study one ogre and get his bonus against all 4 ogres. The ogre mage is a different creature, so it would need a different study action.[Emphasis mine] I like that. Ties into the Ranger parentage...
I feel compelled to say 1/day talents should die a terrible terrible death.Not a fan of 1/day talents either.
Everything right here is magnificent.
Ties in well with Ranger parentage and we should all get together and murder 1/day talents.
How many times a day can we do that? ;)
How many times a day can we do that? ;)
1/day
*ducks*