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Advanced Class Guide Survey is Live!


Advanced Class Guide Playtest General Discussion

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Hey there everybody,

I wanted to let you know that the survey's for the Advanced Class Guide playtest are now live. I've got a couple of points I want to share with you about how this is going to work.

These surveys are designed to give us an overall feel and impression of the class. You should base your answers on the current builds (not the proposed changes). Even if the class is about to get some alterations, we want to gauge how your opinions change after the changes take place.

These surveys are linked to your paizo.com account and your answers are not final until the playtest closes on December 17th. That means you can answer now and change them later as the classes get adjustments and alterations.

There are 11 surveys total. One for each class and one general survey. While the class surveys work on a 1-5 scale, the general survey lets you fill in answers for a few key questions. I must stress this now...

Keep your answers brief and concise. The messageboards are where we want to see long thoughts and discussion. If your answers are too long in the survey it is going to make it very difficult for us to gather information from them.

You can find the survey HERE!

Thanks again for participating in the playtest. We look forward to seeing what you have to say.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


"3. Do you think the theme and mechanics of the swashbuckler compliment each other? (1 means they don’t at all, 5 means they are a perfect match)

2
1
3
4
5
"

The number order seems to be off on the Swashbuckler survey.

Love that you all are doing them though, thank you!

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Thanks for the catch Torbyne, we will get that fixed asap.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Did the general, brawler and investigator surveys. Have not taken a very detailed look at the others.

One comment that I did not put in the surveys is. While I am not fond of the alchemist class, I find that the combination of minimal alchemist abilities with the rogue abilities is "exactly" what I am looking forward to playing in our next AP (once we finish Serpent Skull).

-- david

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

These surveys are designed to give us an overall feel and impression of the class. You should base your answers on the current builds (not the proposed changes). Even if the class is about to get some alterations, we want to gauge how your opinions change after the changes take place.

These surveys are linked to your paizo.com account and your answers are not final until the playtest closes on December 17th. That means you can answer now and change them later as the classes get adjustments and alterations.

Just to clarify: if we answer the survey now, you'll be able to see our thoughts on the current state of the classes, and - once a second playtest document goes out - when we alter our answers on the survey you'll receive those as updated opinions on the classes?

Taldor

Do you want opinions for all or only the ones we took the time to experiment with?

Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

Torbyne wrote:

"3. Do you think the theme and mechanics of the swashbuckler compliment each other? (1 means they don’t at all, 5 means they are a perfect match)

2
1
3
4
5
"

The number order seems to be off on the Swashbuckler survey.

Love that you all are doing them though, thank you!

This has been fixed :)

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ubiquitous wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

These surveys are designed to give us an overall feel and impression of the class. You should base your answers on the current builds (not the proposed changes). Even if the class is about to get some alterations, we want to gauge how your opinions change after the changes take place.

These surveys are linked to your paizo.com account and your answers are not final until the playtest closes on December 17th. That means you can answer now and change them later as the classes get adjustments and alterations.

Just to clarify: if we answer the survey now, you'll be able to see our thoughts on the current state of the classes, and - once a second playtest document goes out - when we alter our answers on the survey you'll receive those as updated opinions on the classes?

Correct.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Survey taken. Somehow I seem more negative about some classes than I really feel about them, but that's because the survey asks for direct comparisons with other classes. ^^

Aside from the Warpriest, which is horribly useless in its current state and gets his milkshake stolen by the Inquisitor.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Wouldn't be half bad to add a "Have you playtested this class in a game?" question to each survey.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
Wouldn't be half bad to add a "Have you playtested this class in a game?" question to each survey.

I think not. People can have clear ideas how mechanics work without playtesting. Which also suffers from fickle dice other random chance elements. I'd love to playtest, but time and willing friends make it not very likely that I'll get the chance. Also, at this moment the classes are getting re-designed, so I'm not sure how playtesting the old versions helps things anymore.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I wasn't suggesting that they throw out data if you haven't. It just gives a real indication of how interested you are in the class.


Cheapy wrote:
Wouldn't be half bad to add a "Have you playtested this class in a game?" question to each survey.

A "I have never played a witch and never will, so I have no idea how to compare it to the Shaman" button would be nice heh.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that they throw out data if you haven't. It just gives a real indication of how interested you are in the class.

I'm very interested in the Swashbuckler and yet haven't done playtesting, for the reasons enumerated. I am very interested in rescueing the Warpriest from the trash pile it currently resides in, yet I can't playtest. Playtesting is not a good indicator of the level of interest, IMO.


Only if compared to how much time a given commentator has spent playing other classes; Not counting a few online society scenarios, I've played a grand total of two pathfinder classes in my regular sit down game. I wouldn't consider either one my favourite, nor would I consider myself uninterested in other classes. I'm just in a very slow moving game with little to no opportunity to play a wide variety of characters.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You can playtest with yourself. Lots of people have done it!


I hope that the new classes don't get nerfed if we say they are stronger than some base class.

The rogue for example is weaker than nearly everything so it doesn't say something about the investigator if I call him stronger. Except that he's less useless of corse.


Cheapy wrote:
You can playtest with yourself. Lots of people have done it!

I'm planning on doing so and have built two level 13 characters already of four needed, but each one of those takes about 1 1/2 hours (unbuffed) and I have a lot going on the last days in terms of RL. Also, as I said, it kind of seems senseless to do more playtesting with versions of the classes which will soon be overwritten by better versions.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheapy wrote:
You can playtest with yourself. Lots of people have done it!

That sounds more than a little dirty Cheapy.


I'm interested in the Swashbuckler being made much more viable. As it stands now, I'd play a SGG Fusilier and call it a swashbuckler 10 times out of 10.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Grey Lensman's comment makes me wonder if we'll ever see the stats from this survey. The spread for each question would be pretty interesting to see.

The reason I think that is because I've found the swashbuckler to be one of the stronger classes in here, so seeing such divergent opinions on a graph would be cool :)


I could wish that the class surveys were a little more detailed, though I did like the question about the theme and mechanics and understand about the APs. Something along the lines of asking if it's complicated or simple to build a character of [CLASS] (complicated makes it newbie-unfriendly, simple might mean there's too few character concepts available) and whether or not we felt it exemplified its proposed themes.


Cheapy wrote:

Grey Lensman's comment makes me wonder if we'll ever see the stats from this survey. The spread for each question would be pretty interesting to see.

The reason I think that is because I've found the swashbuckler to be one of the stronger classes in here, so seeing such divergent opinions on a graph would be cool :)

Really? I found power wise the Shaman was the winner.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I said one of. Shaman got a high score for my Powerlevel question :)


Cheapy wrote:
The reason I think that is because I've found the swashbuckler to be one of the stronger classes in here, so seeing such divergent opinions on a graph would be cool :)

You keep saying this and the suspense is killing me as to why. Arcanist, Shaman, and Bloodrager are standing right over there!

C'mon, give us some information. What happened? Why? With what builds? Against what challenges and puzzles? Enlighten us.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's a topic for another day :)


Prince of Knives wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
The reason I think that is because I've found the swashbuckler to be one of the stronger classes in here, so seeing such divergent opinions on a graph would be cool :)

You keep saying this and the suspense is killing me as to why. Arcanist, Shaman, and Bloodrager are standing right over there!

C'mon, give us some information. What happened? Why? With what builds? Against what challenges and puzzles? Enlighten us.

Dervish dance strength dumping.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't think it's even possible to compare the Arcanist and the Bloodrager directly, for example, so I've been answering the survey as if it said "compared to the other classes of the same role". This will skew my answers if it isn't what you guys on the PDT want, so tell me if I have to change it. I don't look forward to trying to make a direct power comparison between such disparate classes though.

Also, might have used some comments on comparing the power to the parent classes. There's a big difference between "1, and that's good because the parent class is morbidly OP" and "1, gosh this new class is weak". Similarly "5, which is great because darn is that parent class weak" vs "5, and that's a big problem because that parent class is our high mark for that kind of class". In that vein, of course the Swashbuckler rates a 1 from me compared to the gunslinger. But that's not a bad thing for the Swashbuckler!


I agree with rogue eidolon.

The Slayer for example, strikes me as a class that fits nicely in the middle of the group that is "fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian, bloodrager, cavalier."

The group, "Wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric, witch, arcanist", is so much more powerful it's not even funny. But I don't compare to these guys, as they're another balance point. That's why I'm rating the hunter and warpriest lower than say, the swashbuckler. They feel and work near enough to the high casters that it makes sense to compare them to the druid and cleric, but they don't get the same "top end power", which rates them a lower relative power score than someone who just has to be able to compare with the fighter and monk.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Another agreement with Rogue Eidolon.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just a general feedback issue here, but I'm disappointed that the Advanced Class Guide doesn't feature a Cleric/Rogue hybrid. Using the base four classes (Fighter, Mage, Thief, Cleric) we have hybrids using all the other combinations, whether from this book or the other manuals. But nowhere do I find a class that can heal/buff and disarm traps. Why is this combination always forgotten?

Certainly the gods need followers who can spy on the other gods, or steal from them, or sabotage them... you get the point.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Because the Inquisitor is already filling that role...

Shadow Lodge

you ask questions like " how does class X compare to other classes in the ACG?" but i cant answer those questions and you dont have a NA option. im going to have to lie or give misinformation in order to complete this servey


TheSideKick wrote:

you ask questions like " how does class X compare to other classes in the ACG?" but i cant answer those questions and you dont have a NA option. im going to have to lie or give misinformation in order to complete this servey

Right, that you can't end a survey with questions unanswered is strange/unhelpful.


Cheapy wrote:
Because the Inquisitor is already filling that role...

How so? Inquisitors don't have trapfinding, or sneak damage, or anything else I associate with the rogue class. Instead it has judgements, banes and teamwork feats. That sounds like a Paladin/Cavalier hybrid to me.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's a skillful divine caster that does well as a face. That's what the thief's job is in the classic 4: skills. Check out the archetypes too! Lots of sneaky stuff about spying and infiltration, although none about trapfinding.


I'm not getting a sent dot for the general feedback survey, though I'm pretty sure I sent it. Anyone else with that problem, or did I mess something up?


I've the same issue. I suspect that ne simply doesn't dot, since it's different from the others.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
TheSideKick wrote:
you ask questions like " how does class X compare to other classes in the ACG?" but i cant answer those questions and you dont have a NA option. im going to have to lie or give misinformation in order to complete this servey

This, for questions like, "How does the shaman compare to the witch?" -- It'd be nice to have an option, "N/A - I don't have a strong enough feel for the witch to make an assessment."


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, I really didn't like this survey. Rating things so much based on 'power' felt very arbitrary. I'd rather have questions like, "does this class have a significant enough niche?". Obviously throwing up categories to compare power to lets you generate more questions, but I feel 90% of the feedback here is meaningless.

Muzzy wrote:
How so? Inquisitors don't have trapfinding, or sneak damage, or anything else I associate with the rogue class. Instead it has judgements, banes and teamwork feats. That sounds like a Paladin/Cavalier hybrid to me.

Rogue's primary power is those skill points, the class features are mostly bonus. 6 skill point inquisitor is definitely the intended fill of this slot in my eyes.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I feel so mean doing some of them knowing the changes coming down the pipe will completely change my answers. Done, but look forward to redoing (especially Arcanist, Shaman and Investigator)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here's another one that's tricky--Bloodrager.

Versus Sorcerer? They're not even remotely the same class. Maybe a '3' is the best choice for N/A?

Versus Barbarian? This one is more interesting--I believe from both playtest and building a few that I haven't had time to playtest that since Bloodrager has nearly all Barbarian abilities except Rage Powers, it's stronger than Barbarian by a reasonable amount if the Barbarian player does not take the most powerful Rage Powers possible, since you are locked into a set of powers that are generally stronger than your average Rage Power. However, it is weaker by a reasonable amount than a Barbarian who does choose the best Rage Powers because the best ones are very very strong and the Bloodrager is still locked into those same powers. I'm thinking of putting a '4', but it's a very funky '4'--'4' for "stronger usually but weaker than the most optimized possible" is different than the '4' for "slightly stronger period" that I gave to some other stuff.

Osirion

Jason Bulmahn wrote:


These surveys are linked to your paizo.com account and your answers are not final until the playtest closes on December 17th. Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Now past the date for playtesting does this mean we cannot make these characters currently and play them advancing them in level until the actual book is out?

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