Also, there are only 6 Knowledges that apply to monsters: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Planes, and Religion.
I would like to see a way to make perception am intelligent based skill. like the investigator talent that makes track a perception check instead of survival check. i like the way the class is going and look forward to were the class is going.
I also think they should be proficient with fire arms to feel like most incarnations of a detective character.
i want to 2nd that motion, more fire arm options would be great
Also, there are only 6 Knowledges that apply to monsters: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Planes, and Religion.
even with that, we would need something like versatile performance for knowledges.
my suggestion
Practical Knowledge; (Ex) an investigator has learned to apply practical applications of his knowledge skills on the field. using his ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill in place of the ranks of the desired skill. the knowledges and associated skill counterparts are
Engineering = Perception
Arcana = Use Magic Device
Religion = Heal
Nature = Handle Animal
Local = Disguise
Nobility = Diplomacy
Dungeoneering = Disable Device
Planes = Spellcraft
Geography = Survival
History = Linguistics
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Also, there are only 6 Knowledges that apply to monsters: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Planes, and Religion.even with that, we would need something like versatile performance for knowledges.
my suggestion
Practical Knowledge; (Ex) an investigator has learned to apply practical applications of his knowledge skills on the field. using his ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill in place of the ranks of the desired skill. the knowledges and associated skill counterparts are
Engineering = Perception
Arcana = Use Magic Device
Religion = Heal
Nature = Handle Animal
Local = Disguise
Nobility = Diplomacy
Dungeoneering = Disable Device
Planes = Spellcraft
Geography = Survival
History = Linguistics
That is really unnecessary. With a 18 Int an Investigator can get 3 ranks in each important knowledge skill by 6th level while also putting points in other important skills.
His bonus is +10+1d6. Fairly awesome while still being the bare minimum.
And he really doesn't need Geography, History, Nobility, or Engineering.
And that would be really unfair to the Bard.
Perhaps. But that's why you don't see abilities like that as main class skills :-)
Is it going to be a skill tax? Well, OK. But why give an ability to mitigate it if it's meant to be a tax?
Is it meant to always be available? Well, OK. So why even bother with the complicated skill stuff and just make it always available?
Skills setting the variables for class abilities are pretty rare for a reason. I doubt Stephen is going that route, but we'll see soon enough. If he does, he has two other smart guys to bounce ideas off of.
Funny how many of these classes benefit from 2 levels of MoMS. I wonder if we'll see changes to it.almost any non casting class benefits from 2 levels of MoMS and it works for a few hybrid casters as well
It helps that everyone falls for Kirin Style even though it devours your action economy and falls behind as you level.
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Funny how many of these classes benefit from 2 levels of MoMS. I wonder if we'll see changes to it.almost any non casting class benefits from 2 levels of MoMS and it works for a few hybrid casters as well
Which is all that needs to be said about its power level and the importance of anti-dip measures.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, Contributor
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It helps that everyone falls for Kirin Style even though it devours your action economy and falls behind as you level.Funny how many of these classes benefit from 2 levels of MoMS. I wonder if we'll see changes to it.almost any non casting class benefits from 2 levels of MoMS and it works for a few hybrid casters as well
True that. I'm anxious to see another possible take on INT to damage. Dieing to try out this class, but I have no idea what I'd be doing in combat, now that I'm not sneak attacking. Not that I loved the idea of sneak attack, but it leads you down certain paths. My current build idea is just proving how lame Focused Shot is.
Also, there are only 6 Knowledges that apply to monsters: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Planes, and Religion.even with that, we would need something like versatile performance for knowledges.
my suggestion
Practical Knowledge; (Ex) an investigator has learned to apply practical applications of his knowledge skills on the field. using his ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill in place of the ranks of the desired skill. the knowledges and associated skill counterparts are
Engineering = Perception
Arcana = Use Magic Device
Religion = Heal
Nature = Handle Animal
Local = Disguise
Nobility = Diplomacy
Dungeoneering = Disable Device
Planes = Spellcraft
Geography = Survival
History = LinguisticsThat is really unnecessary. With a 18 Int an Investigator can get 3 ranks in each important knowledge skill by 6th level while also putting points in other important skills.
His bonus is +10+1d6. Fairly awesome while still being the bare minimum.
And he really doesn't need Geography, History, Nobility, or Engineering.
And that would be really unfair to the Bard.
but how many investigators are obviously going to start with 18 int short of a 25+ point allotment or really generous rolls?
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That really depends on who is a "detective." Right off the bat, Sherlock Holmes, the literary Sherlock Holmes, contrary to what has been stated above, was an expert of "baritsu." Baritsu is a munging or possibly a misspelling of Bartitsu, an importation of jiujitsu from Japan by an English boxer and dirty tricks defense expert named Barton. This expertise is implied to be stunning. Furthermore, Sherlock Holmes's primary combat tactic, whether by fist or pistol, was sneaking. Sneaking, sneaking, and more sneaking. The other thing he did was ready an action to shoot someone who tried to escape. The cinematic Holmes is more, well, cinematic, but is absolutely true in spirit to the style and capabilities of the literary Holmes.
Sherlock Holmes is never shown using Baritsu, or Bartitsu for that matter. And he's never described as an expert in it, he just says that he has "some knowledge" of it. And there is only one, single solitary never-mention-again-off-hand-reference to it in one story: The Adventure of the Empty House. It's described as a "Japanese system of wrestling". There's nothing sneaky about his fight with Moriarty, or his use of it. Moriarty and Holmes talk, Moriarty lets Holmes write a note because they're both gentlemen, then when they're both good and ready Moriarty tackles Holmes head on and they wrestle on the edge of the cliff. But Holmes out maneuvers Moriarty and breaks free, and Moriarty falls. The end.
So Holmes used "Baritsu" to break free from a grapple. Which, in game mechanics, involves CMB & CMD. Not sneak attack dice.
Also, Doyle probably lifted the name Baritsu from the creator of Bartitsu, Barton-Wright, because they both wrote for the same magazine. But Doyle also probably didn't know much, if anything, about what Bartitsu was other than that it was a "japanese wrestling" style that sounded cool. So whatever martial art Holmes knew and called "Baritsu" would have been more like Judo, with more of an emphasis on grappling than striking. If he wanted to strike someone, he'd probably just punch them considering he was an excellent boxer.
As for the others, Professor Van Helsing is probably the least sneak-attacky character this side of Miss Marple. The only combat in the entire book was against the Gypsies guarding Dracula's coffin and Van Helsing doesn't participate (he also isn't a very good investigator. He's a doctor who is called in because they think Lucy is suffering from a rare disease. He doesn't figure out there's a vampire preying on her until after she dies).
Dr. Jekyll wouldn't even remotely be an Invesigator. The main character of Jekyll & Hyde is Jekyll's friend, John Utterson. Jekyll commits suicide half-way through the book, and the revelation that Jekyll was Hyde is spelled out in his last letter to Utterson. And it's only a surprise to Utterson and the reader; Jekyll knew what was going on the entire time.
I don't remember Ichobod Crane in Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow doing much in a fight beyond running and/or hiding.
I haven't read The Scarlet Pimpernel in a looooooong time though. I don't remember him doing anything alchemist-ish. Kinda figured him more as a rogue or maybe a less-fighty swashbuckler.
Anyway, I still don't have a problem with investigators having sneak attack, since the newer Holmes made it so popular (and it was a pretty awesome movie) and since it gives the investigator legs in combat.
But I also still think that a Bard/Alchemist who buffs other characters or himself in short, inspirational bursts is the best way to go with the investigator class. I'd rather see a lot of focus on non-combat stuff. Like ... investigation-type stuff.
but how many investigators are obviously going to start with 18 int short of a 25+ point allotment or really generous rolls?Also, there are only 6 Knowledges that apply to monsters: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Planes, and Religion.even with that, we would need something like versatile performance for knowledges.
my suggestion
Practical Knowledge; (Ex) an investigator has learned to apply practical applications of his knowledge skills on the field. using his ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill in place of the ranks of the desired skill. the knowledges and associated skill counterparts are
Engineering = Perception
Arcana = Use Magic Device
Religion = Heal
Nature = Handle Animal
Local = Disguise
Nobility = Diplomacy
Dungeoneering = Disable Device
Planes = Spellcraft
Geography = Survival
History = LinguisticsThat is really unnecessary. With a 18 Int an Investigator can get 3 ranks in each important knowledge skill by 6th level while also putting points in other important skills.
His bonus is +10+1d6. Fairly awesome while still being the bare minimum.
And he really doesn't need Geography, History, Nobility, or Engineering.
And that would be really unfair to the Bard.
A lot?
20 pt. buy.
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 16+2
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Wis and Cha are interchangeable.
Intelligence powers your skill points, your inspiration and your extracts. Your extracts and potions can power your attack and damage in the early game until it becomes feasible to use Inspiration more and more. AS a thought towards inspirations and feats here's a 6th level build.
Talents
1 Extend Potion
3 Mutagen
5 Enhance Potion
Feats:
1 Improved Initiative
1 Toughness
3 Power Attack
5 Extra Inspiration (Intelligence Inspiratio) you know it's coming.
And there you have it a base build that can lead to a fairly decent melee power house while still maintaining a number of things that the investigator can do. You can grab a few cheap potions to pad you over until level 4 and the coming of Alchemical Allocation.
Anyway, I still don't have a problem with investigators having sneak attack, since the newer Holmes made it so popular (and it was a pretty awesome movie) and since it gives the investigator legs in combat.
But I also still think that a Bard/Alchemist who buffs other characters or himself in short, inspirational bursts is the best way to go with the investigator class. I'd rather see a lot of focus on non-combat stuff. Like ... investigation-type stuff.
Eh, while I agree that investogators tend to be more like Monk than "monks" I have to keep in mind that these guys aren't exactly facing off against opponents who will obligingly be arrested or lay down and die once they're discovered.
I do like the idea of them fighting mainly with their wits and skill rather than martial instinct. So more talents and abilities like Inspirational Expertise is certainly welcome as is any ability that would allow inspiration to be added to damage dice in one form or another.
but how many investigators are obviously going to start with 18 int short of a 25+ point allotment or really generous rolls?
A lot?
20 pt. buy.
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 16+2
Wis: 10
Cha: 8Wis and Cha are interchangeable.
Intelligence powers your skill points, your inspiration and your extracts. Your extracts and potions can power your attack and damage in the early game until it becomes feasible to use Inspiration more and more. AS a thought towards inspirations and feats here's a 6th level build.
Talents
1 Extend Potion
3 Mutagen
5 Enhance PotionFeats:
1 Improved Initiative
1 Toughness
3 Power Attack
5 Extra Inspiration (Intelligence Inspiratio) you know it's coming.And there you have it a base build that can lead to a fairly decent melee power house while still maintaining a number of things that the investigator can do. You can grab a few cheap potions to pad you over until level 4 and the coming of Alchemical Allocation.
so essentially, you are dependent upon potions, which aren't cheap at that level and eat a huge amount of your gold, you depend on a mutagen that takes a whole hour to brew where you are a sitting duck until it's ready, you have a low AC, can't qualify for most of the decent ranged feats to round yourself out, and useless in combat unless you are able to spend multiple turns buffing yourself and trying to melee your foes. try proposing that build with Weekly William, he would see it as a funny joke. by the time you finish drugging up, the fight may as well be already over.
Funny. Studied Strike. I put something together with that name before I left the office on Friday. It works differently, but it was fun seeing the name up here.Let's try to get a brain storm going on what we can add for offense.
A per day use item like bombs or a bonus?
Well, you know... great minds...
so essentially, you are dependent upon potions, which aren't cheap at that level and eat a huge amount of your gold, you depend on a mutagen that takes a whole hour to brew where you are a sitting duck until it's ready, you have a low AC, can't qualify for most of the decent ranged feats to round yourself out, and useless in combat unless you are able to spend multiple turns buffing yourself and trying to melee your foes. try proposing that build with Weekly William, he would see it as a funny joke. by the time you finish drugging up, the fight may as well be already over.but how many investigators are obviously going to start with 18 int short of a 25+ point allotment or really generous rolls?
A lot?
20 pt. buy.
Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 16+2
Wis: 10
Cha: 8Wis and Cha are interchangeable.
Intelligence powers your skill points, your inspiration and your extracts. Your extracts and potions can power your attack and damage in the early game until it becomes feasible to use Inspiration more and more. AS a thought towards inspirations and feats here's a 6th level build.
Talents
1 Extend Potion
3 Mutagen
5 Enhance PotionFeats:
1 Improved Initiative
1 Toughness
3 Power Attack
5 Extra Inspiration (Intelligence Inspiratio) you know it's coming.And there you have it a base build that can lead to a fairly decent melee power house while still maintaining a number of things that the investigator can do. You can grab a few cheap potions to pad you over until level 4 and the coming of Alchemical Allocation.
Sooooo I take it you don't like vivisectionists? Because that's essentially what he is only with a strong number boosting mechanic in inspiration and no claws.
Frankly, I don't think the build's the problem so much as you don't know what you're doing with it.
In fact I know you don't because you suggested ranged feats and multiple rounds of buffing. As if that's a thing a guy with sneak attack and extracts wants to do with his life.
Probably not.
So I have noticed that Investigators do not have the clause that allows spell-trigger items to be used from their spell list. Is this on purpose?
It could be..
Device talent is really going to make up for the fact that investigators aren;t going to have high charisma score. And the high int means that you can avoid the check to emulate an ability score for many wizard spells.
Sherlock Holmes is never shown using Baritsu, or Bartitsu for that matter. And he's never described as an expert in it, he just says that he has "some knowledge" of it. And there is only one, single solitary never-mention-again-off-hand-reference to it in one story: The Adventure of the Empty House. It's described as a "Japanese system of wrestling". There's nothing sneaky about his fight with Moriarty, or his use of it. Moriarty and Holmes talk, Moriarty lets Holmes write a note because they're both gentlemen, then when they're both good and ready Moriarty tackles Holmes head on and they wrestle on the edge of the cliff. But Holmes out maneuvers Moriarty and breaks free, and Moriarty falls. The end.So Holmes used "Baritsu" to break free from a grapple. Which, in game mechanics, involves CMB & CMD. Not sneak attack dice.
Also, Doyle probably lifted the name Baritsu from the creator of Bartitsu, Barton-Wright, because they both wrote for the same magazine. But Doyle also probably didn't know much, if anything, about what Bartitsu was other than that it was a "japanese wrestling" style that sounded cool. So whatever martial art Holmes knew and called "Baritsu" would have been more like Judo, with more of an emphasis on grappling than striking.
Judo had been barely been invented when those books were written, so there is no reason to suppose bartitsu was anything like judo. Bartitsu takes its name from jiujitsu, otherwise it would be "Bartudo." While jiujutsu does emphasize grappling, it does incorporate strikes and other damaging techniques, including jointbreaking. Bartitsu explicitly incorporated techniques from English boxing and French savate, both of which are striking arts. Further, Barton-Wright claimed to have refined his techniques by engaging in street fights.
Wikipedia says Barton-Wright's training in "Japanese wrestling" came from the "Shinden Fudo Ryu jujutsu of sensei Terajima Kuniichiro."
Sherlock Holmes is never shown using Baritsu, or Bartitsu for that matter. And he's never described as an expert in it, he just says that he has "some knowledge" of it. And there is only one, single solitary never-mention-again-off-hand-reference to it in one story: The Adventure of the Empty House. It's described as a "Japanese system of wrestling". There's nothing sneaky about his fight with Moriarty, or his use of it. Moriarty and Holmes talk, Moriarty lets Holmes write a note because they're both gentlemen, then when they're both good and ready Moriarty tackles Holmes head on and they wrestle on the edge of the cliff. But Holmes out maneuvers Moriarty and breaks free, and Moriarty falls. The end.So Holmes used "Baritsu" to break free from a grapple. Which, in game mechanics, involves CMB & CMD. Not sneak attack dice.
Also, Doyle probably lifted the name Baritsu from the creator of Bartitsu, Barton-Wright, because they both wrote for the same magazine. But Doyle also probably didn't know much, if anything, about what Bartitsu was other than that it was a "japanese wrestling" style that sounded cool. So whatever martial art Holmes knew and called "Baritsu" would have been more like Judo, with more of an emphasis on grappling than striking.
artitsu was anything like judo. Bartitsu takes its name from jiujitsu, otherwise it would be "Bartudo." While jiujutsu does emphasize grappling, it does incorporate strikes and other damaging techniques, including jointbreaking. Bartitsu explicitly incorporated techniques from English boxing and French savate, both of which are striking arts. Further, Barton-Wright claimed to have refined his techniques by engaging in street fights.
Wikipedia says Barton-Wright's training in "Japanese wrestling" came from the "Shinden Fudo Ryu jujutsu of sensei Terajima Kuniichiro."
To put some perspective here.
Bartitsu might have been completely forgotten if not for a cryptic reference by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in one of his Sherlock Holmes mystery stories. In 1901 Conan Doyle had revived Holmes for a further story, The Adventure of the Empty House, in which Holmes explained his victory over Professor Moriarty in their struggle at Reichenbach Falls by the use of "baritsu, or the Japanese system of wrestling, which has more than once been very useful to me".
The term "baritsu" did not exist outside the pages of the English editions of The Adventure of the Empty House and a 1900 London Times newspaper report titled "Japanese Wrestling at the Tivoli," which covered a Bartitsu demonstration in London but misspelled the name as baritsu.[18] It is possible that Conan Doyle, who, like E.W. Barton-Wright, was writing for Pearson’s Magazine during the late 1890s, had direct familiarity with Bartitsu but altered the term in order to distance it for intellectual-proprietary reasons, avoid misattribution of Holmes' techniques, and/or make it more consistent with Japanese phonology; alternatively, he may have been only more vaguely aware of Bartitsu and simply misremembered or misheard the term. A third possibility is that Conan Doyle may have used the 1900 London Times article as source material, copying the "baritsu" misspelling verbatim; particularly in that he had Holmes define "baritsu" as "Japanese wrestling", which was the same phrase used in the newspaper headline.
Given the enormous popularity of the Sherlock Holmes stories, the fact that Holmes credited his survival and victory against Moriarty to "baritsu", and the fact that E.W. Barton-Wright's martial art and, with it, its name's proper spelling had quickly faded from popular memory, the confusion of names persisted through much of the 20th century. In an article for the Baker Street Journal Christmas Annual of 1958, journalist Ralph Judson correctly identified baritsu with Bartitsu, but Judson's article itself eventually became obscured.[19] During the 1980s, researchers Alan Fromm and Nicolas Soames re-affirmed the relationship between "baritsu" and Bartitsu[20] and by the 1990s scholars including Yuichi Hirayama, John Hall, Richard Bowen, and James Webb were able to confidently identify and document the martial art of Sherlock Holmes.[21]
Well, you know... great minds...Funny. Studied Strike. I put something together with that name before I left the office on Friday. It works differently, but it was fun seeing the name up here.Let's try to get a brain storm going on what we can add for offense.
A per day use item like bombs or a bonus?
:) Right!
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Oh come on, that's almost as cruel as Jason was with the Arcanist! Were any of us close?Funny. Studied Strike. I put something together with that name before I left the office on Friday. It works differently, but it was fun seeing the name up here.Let's try to get a brain storm going on what we can add for offense.
A per day use item like bombs or a bonus?
Oh, trust me. I'm crueler than Jason. Much crueler. :)
You are just going to have to wait. We are still discussing and thinking about the issue. This is just one possible solution.
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I got to try out the investigator yesterday and I had a question; it may have already been asked.
The investigator can use inspiration
on any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft skill checks
without spending a use of inspiration, provided he’s
trained in that skill.
So is this one of those abilities that requires me to have at least one in my inspiration pool? Or can I use it with zero inspiration left?
I got to try out the investigator yesterday and I had a question; it may have already been asked.
The investigator can use inspiration
on any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft skill checks
without spending a use of inspiration, provided he’s
trained in that skill.So is this one of those abilities that requires me to have at least one in my inspiration pool? Or can I use it with zero inspiration left?
You can do so with zero inspiration. They are just free uses, as long as you have at least one rank in that skill.
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You can do so with zero inspiration. They are just free uses, as long as you have at least one rank in that skill.I got to try out the investigator yesterday and I had a question; it may have already been asked.
The investigator can use inspiration
on any Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft skill checks
without spending a use of inspiration, provided he’s
trained in that skill.So is this one of those abilities that requires me to have at least one in my inspiration pool? Or can I use it with zero inspiration left?
Perfect. Thank you!
Studied Strike. I put something together with that name before I left the office on Friday. It works differently, but it was fun seeing the name up here.
Awesome, my playtest group was just commenting in our playtest yesterday how it would be nice if there was something to replace sneak attack that used their massive knowledge skills as an insight bonus to attack and damage. Or some other Clever way to use their knowledge to boost their damage output or that of others. Possibly as an insight bonus they gain their Int to attack and their level damage. Similar to a smite, but only on creatures that are susceptible to precision damage.
I like insight bonus for this class because it sounds like it came from knowledge.
Sneak attack itself is a great ability and often under valued. It just doesn't feel appropriate. However, I suppose if it was named surgical precision or something but acted as sneak attack maybe we wouldn't think that.
Golo
Sooooo I take it you don't like vivisectionists? Because that's essentially what he is only with a strong number boosting mechanic in inspiration and no claws.
Frankly, I don't think the build's the problem so much as you don't know what you're doing with it.
In fact I know you don't because you suggested ranged feats and multiple rounds of buffing. As if that's a thing a guy with sneak attack and extracts wants to do with his life.
it's not that i don't like the build. it's that i see huge gaping weaknesses in the build in the form of ranged combatants being able to pepper it while it can't react, mobility issues derived from terrain, the fact it spends multiple rounds buffing, the fact it eats up a huge amounts of money on overpriced potions with no real way to compensate or reduce the cost, the poor armor class it posses that isn't conducive to low level survival, and the fact it is dependant on one trick, buff up, move into a flanking position and deal damage.
even if it's a rogue with buffs, it is still effectively as limited in options as the rogue. my problem, isn't the fact it deals nasty damage with a buffed flanking melee sneak attack, my problem is, that it requires a buffed melee flanking sneak attack full attack to deal any damage at all. which is irksome in the relatively short combat encounters that accompany the game's built in rocket tag.
i can see it working if you have a party tailored towards getting it's nasty DPR off. the downside is, that requires a lot of group coordination to pull off, requires the group to think as a unit rather than individuals, and requires everyone to tailor their characters to each other. it also requires a group that isn't in an arms race among it's own members.
Sooooo I take it you don't like vivisectionists? Because that's essentially what he is only with a strong number boosting mechanic in inspiration and no claws.
Frankly, I don't think the build's the problem so much as you don't know what you're doing with it.
In fact I know you don't because you suggested ranged feats and multiple rounds of buffing. As if that's a thing a guy with sneak attack and extracts wants to do with his life.
it's not that i don't like the build. it's that i see huge gaping weaknesses in the build in the form of ranged combatants being able to pepper it while it can't react, mobility issues derived from terrain, the fact it spends multiple rounds buffing, the fact it eats up a huge amounts of money on overpriced potions with no real way to compensate or reduce the cost, the poor armor class it posses that isn't conducive to low level survival, and the fact it is dependant on one trick, buff up, move into a flanking position and deal damage.
even if it's a rogue with buffs, it is still effectively as limited in options as the rogue. my problem, isn't the fact it deals nasty damage with a buffed flanking melee sneak attack, my problem is, that it requires a buffed melee flanking sneak attack full attack to deal any damage at all. which is irksome in the relatively short combat encounters that accompany the game's built in rocket tag.
i can see it working if you have a party tailored towards getting it's nasty DPR off. the downside is, that requires a lot of group coordination to pull off, requires the group to think as a unit rather than individuals, and requires everyone to tailor their characters to each other. it also requires a group that isn't in an arms race among it's own members.
You do know that it doesn't cost money to use extracts right? Thats where he's getting his buffs from. Invisibility, Shield and Barkskin are just a few staples. Mutagens and Barkskin are long lasting buffs and you don't reprepare your mutagens after every fight nor are you useless without it. Tark even worked Enhance Potions and Extend Potions into the build which is extremely helpful when you know you're going to be fighting a lot through the day. Thats when you use the potions you've bought.
The Investigator isn't fantastic at a damage role and I personally don't think he should be, however he is more than adequate.
Bow builds aren't too shabby either.
Sooooo I take it you don't like vivisectionists? Because that's essentially what he is only with a strong number boosting mechanic in inspiration and no claws.
Frankly, I don't think the build's the problem so much as you don't know what you're doing with it.
In fact I know you don't because you suggested ranged feats and multiple rounds of buffing. As if that's a thing a guy with sneak attack and extracts wants to do with his life.
it's not that i don't like the build. it's that i see huge gaping weaknesses in the build in the form of ranged combatants being able to pepper it while it can't react, mobility issues derived from terrain, the fact it spends multiple rounds buffing, the fact it eats up a huge amounts of money on overpriced potions with no real way to compensate or reduce the cost, the poor armor class it posses that isn't conducive to low level survival, and the fact it is dependant on one trick, buff up, move into a flanking position and deal damage.
even if it's a rogue with buffs, it is still effectively as limited in options as the rogue. my problem, isn't the fact it deals nasty damage with a buffed flanking melee sneak attack, my problem is, that it requires a buffed melee flanking sneak attack full attack to deal any damage at all. which is irksome in the relatively short combat encounters that accompany the game's built in rocket tag.
i can see it working if you have a party tailored towards getting it's nasty DPR off. the downside is, that requires a lot of group coordination to pull off, requires the group to think as a unit rather than individuals, and requires everyone to tailor their characters to each other. it also requires a group that isn't in an arms race among it's own members.
You do know that it doesn't cost money to use extracts right? Thats where he's getting his buffs from. Invisibility, Shield and Barkskin are just a few staples. Mutagens and Barkskin are long lasting buffs and you don't reprepare your mutagens after every fight nor are you useless without it. Tark even worked Enhance Potions and Extend Potions into the build which is extremely helpful when you know you're going to be fighting a lot through the day. Thats when you use the potions you've bought.
The Investigator isn't fantastic at a damage role and I personally don't think he should be, however he is more than adequate.
Bow builds aren't too shabby either.
i guess an investigator or vivisectionist isn't too different from a martially oriented divine caster. both involve a lot of self buffing, both need to work around their highly limited limited weapon and armor selection, both have a massive list of self buffs, and both are usually hosed against ranged or flying foes until the really high levels.
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Pretty much. The Investigator and Vivisectionist are a tid bit more versatile and get a truckload more skills however.
Pretty much. The Investigator and Vivisectionist are a tid bit more versatile and get a truckload more skills however.
so, like an inqusisitor or warpriest? but not skill starved? i could handle that a lot more easily.
Pretty much. The Investigator and Vivisectionist are a tid bit more versatile and get a truckload more skills however.so, like an inqusisitor or warpriest? but not skill starved? i could handle that a lot more easily.
=) Glad we could come to an understanding. Inquisitor I feel is the best parallel. Relatively mundane skill class with a dash of arcane extracts. Add in the replacement for Sneak Attack that rewards knowledge and we're golden.
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Eh, while I agree that investogators tend to be more like Monk than "monks" I have to keep in mind that these guys aren't exactly facing off against opponents who will obligingly be arrested or lay down and die once they're discovered.
I do like the idea of them fighting mainly with their wits and skill rather than martial instinct. So more talents and abilities like Inspirational Expertise is certainly welcome as is any ability that would allow inspiration to be added to damage dice in one form or another.
True, an investigator in Pathfinder is going to be dealing with different opponents than misbehaving aristocrats trying to plan the perfect murder. I'm 100% behind the idea of investigators having some combat skills. Sneak attack dice are perfectly fine, and I'm totally in favor of them having a way to use inspiration to enhance their fighting skills. I think medium BAB sounds just about right for an adventuring investigator.
But they're also going to be (we assume) 1/4 of an adventuring party, and of the multiple potential roles they could fill in that party I think "support" seems to fit the class theme the best. And we have to balance their level of support with the existing support classes.
Plus if we're going to have a base class called "investigator" then it seems like the primary focus of that class should be investigation. And if they're going to stand out as a base class then they should have ... something ... that they can do in that area that other classes can't.
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Judo had been barely been invented when those books were written, so there is no reason to suppose bartitsu was anything like judo. Bartitsu takes its name from jiujitsu, otherwise it would be "Bartudo." While jiujutsu does emphasize grappling, it does incorporate strikes and other damaging techniques, including jointbreaking. Bartitsu explicitly incorporated techniques from English boxing and French savate, both of which are striking arts. Further, Barton-Wright claimed to have refined his techniques by engaging in street fights.
Wikipedia says Barton-Wright's training in "Japanese wrestling" came from the "Shinden Fudo Ryu jujutsu of sensei Terajima Kuniichiro."
You know that sentence from Wikipedia you just quoted? There isn't a period after "Kuniichiro". The sentence actually continues on further:
"Bartitsu was largely drawn from the Shinden Fudo Ryu jujutsu of sensei Terajima Kuniichiro (not to be confused with the SFR taijutsu associated with the Bujinkan lineage) and from Kodokan judo."
It looks like Judo was invented in 1882. The Adventure of the Empty House, which is the one and only time Baritsu is mentioned, was published in 1903.
So judo had been around for 21 years by the time Holmes came back from the Great Hiatus, and was brought to London in 1899 ... by Barton Wright ... which is probably where Doyle heard of it. He even spelled it the same way the newspapers did.
Anyway, I didn't say it was Judo. I was just using Judo as an example of what Doyle was describing, since the context of it being used by Holmes was "wrestling & grappling" not "hitting someone in a vital spot".
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They're certainly not a support class. They can't even pass extracts around by default. They may not be a pure consumer of support like a rogue, but they're not doing much supporting of others.
Yes, that's why Investigators should have more options to use their inspiration to support other characters. Make them more like a bard than a rogue.
They should also have a lot of additional ways of contributing before combat, like having a feature like "Trap Spotting" that also auto-detects secret doors and potential ambushes, or gaining a non-magical form of augury/clairvoyance that they can use to "deduce" what is on the other side of a door to better help the party plan for combat, or being able to study tracks and deduce the strengths and weaknesses of the creature who left them so the party can better prepare their spell and equipment selection for the day. They should also get the "Follow Clues" rogue talent for free at 1st level, and should also gain additional information on a successful Perception check than other classes.
All of these would fit with the "investigator" theme of the class, and also be useful in a typical adventuring party.
Better awareness, better information, and superior planning opportunities match the theme. More "DPR" doesn't.
If the class is going to be a sneak-attacking rogue who enhances himself with elixirs, that's great. But that doesn't live up to the theme it's selling.
I am happy the Investigator cannot share extracts. That keeps the Alchemist special.
I am also happy that the Investigator is not a Bard-like buffer. We already have a trap-disabling spell-casting Bard.
I agree that the Investigator should not have sneak attack and poison use. We already have such an Alchemist archetype. Instead provide DPR from a simple yet flavorful bonus. Here is one idea...
Clockwork Pommel (Ex): An Investigator can improve the balance and momentum of his weapons with springs and gears. This takes ten minutes, and can only affect weapons from the class weapon proficiency list. The weapon gains an insight bonus to damage equal to one plus one-fourth the Investigator's level (round all fractions down as usual) whenever the Investigator himself uses the weapon. The critical threat range of such a modified weapon is 19-20/x2, and it cannot be enchanted to be Keen.
Improved Clockwork Pommel (Ex): The Investigator can attach wires, levers, springs, and gears to turn any of his Clockwork Pommel weapons into a reach weapon. Adding reach (or removing reach by undoing the change) takes one minute. Furthermore, the Investigator' Clockwork Pommel weapons now have a critical threat range of 19-20/x3 (and still cannot be Keen).
It worked! It worked! (Ex): When the Investigator confirms a critial hit with a Clockwork Pommel weapon he regains one point in his Inspiration pool.
Clockwork Armor (Ex): The Investigator can attach wires, levers, springs, and gears to his armor to improve its balance. This takes one hour, and increases the armor's Maximum Dexterity Bonus by one. However, the first time the Investigator suffers a critical hit his armor's modifications are ruined and must be rebuilt. The Investigator also loses one point from his Inspiration pool.
I have omitted which level fits these abilities. Take your pick.
You do know that it doesn't cost money to use extracts right? Thats where he's getting his buffs from. Invisibility, Shield and Barkskin are just a few staples. Mutagens and Barkskin are long lasting buffs and you...Sooooo I take it you don't like vivisectionists? Because that's essentially what he is only with a strong number boosting mechanic in inspiration and no claws.
Frankly, I don't think the build's the problem so much as you don't know what you're doing with it.
In fact I know you don't because you suggested ranged feats and multiple rounds of buffing. As if that's a thing a guy with sneak attack and extracts wants to do with his life.
it's not that i don't like the build. it's that i see huge gaping weaknesses in the build in the form of ranged combatants being able to pepper it while it can't react, mobility issues derived from terrain, the fact it spends multiple rounds buffing, the fact it eats up a huge amounts of money on overpriced potions with no real way to compensate or reduce the cost, the poor armor class it posses that isn't conducive to low level survival, and the fact it is dependant on one trick, buff up, move into a flanking position and deal damage.
even if it's a rogue with buffs, it is still effectively as limited in options as the rogue. my problem, isn't the fact it deals nasty damage with a buffed flanking melee sneak attack, my problem is, that it requires a buffed melee flanking sneak attack full attack to deal any damage at all. which is irksome in the relatively short combat encounters that accompany the game's built in rocket tag.
i can see it working if you have a party tailored towards getting it's nasty DPR off. the downside is, that requires a lot of group coordination to pull off, requires the group to think as a unit rather than individuals, and requires everyone to tailor their characters to each other. it also requires a group that isn't in an arms race among it's own members.
There we go.
Ideally you want to do a lot of your buffing out of combat. The Extend/Enhance potions are less about using actual potions and more about Alchemical Allocation. Being able to grab a potion of Good Hope or Heroism and extending/expanding it forever is a pretty good buff.
The key is to treat sneak attack as a side benefit not a primary ability. You have better ways to deal damage then that.
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Well, I finally got a chance to sit and play an Investigator for one scenario and one mod (The Confirmation and Dragon's Demand 1) tonight and I have to say... The Investigator is kind of lame to play at first level.
The party was made up of a Human Paladin, an Oni-Spawn Tiefling Bloodrager, a Suli Skald, a Tiefling Investigator and my Human Investigator. For the most part, the Oni-Spawn and the Paladin were the most effective in combat, particularly with the aid of the Skald's rage song power. Myself and the other Investigator player were of only minor assistance during any of the combats though.
The other Investigator was clearly annoyed that he couldn't do much damage when he could hit and short of monster identification didn't feel his Inspiration was of much help. I felt that there wasn't anything I was doing in combat (PB & PS Short Bow build) that a Rogue or Lore Warden Fighter couldn't do far better. Out of combat, even with the aid of Inspiration to back up a Linguistics and Knowledge check, my rolls didn't end up being much more useful than I could have gotten with my Rogue or Wizard when they were 1st level. After the games, the other Investigator player was pretty much ready to scrap his character to make a Rogue.
As for myself, though I want to like this class (the RDJ Sherlock Holmes films are in my top 10 films of all time now), I just don't see how it's going to be any fun to play when you have to slog through three levels of "meh" to actually be particularly effective as a class let alone in a fight, especially when so much of the game is spent in combat for PFS.
More frustrating was having it pointed out that my initial plan of dipping two levels into MoMS Monk to get Kirin Style and Kirin Strike to improve the Investigator's combat ability will take three rounds of combat (not to mention that two level Monk dip) to even see any effect (1 Swift to enter Kirin Style, 1 Swift to Identify the enemy you want to attack, 1 Swift to use Kirin Strike itself). And I'd still have to slog through two more levels of Investigator to even see my first Investigator Talent if I went that route.
As far as I can see, this class would be tons of fun to play if you started at a higher level, were rolling your stats and got some good rolls on your Abilities. For myself and the other Investigator player, level 1 wasn't particularly fun or exciting to play with this class and it looks like 1-4 won't be much better as they currently are designed.
At low levels, they're a cool idea but rather disappointing in practice.
I am happy the Investigator cannot share extracts. That keeps the Alchemist special.
You might want to read up on what Alchemist discoveries the Investigator can take as an Investigator talent. ^^
Also, there are only 6 Knowledges that apply to monsters: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Planes, and Religion.even with that, we would need something like versatile performance for knowledges.
my suggestion
Practical Knowledge; (Ex) an investigator has learned to apply practical applications of his knowledge skills on the field. using his ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill in place of the ranks of the desired skill. the knowledges and associated skill counterparts are
Engineering = Perception
Arcana = Use Magic Device
Religion = Heal
Nature = Handle Animal
Local = Disguise
Nobility = Diplomacy
Dungeoneering = Disable Device
Planes = Spellcraft
Geography = Survival
History = Linguistics
You know, with something like that maybe I wouldn't mind damage bonuses being hidden behind a skill check (from a theorycraft perspective)?
I am afraid that would make all Investigators pretty similar skill-wise though. It would become very hard to defend NOT taking every knowledge skill at that point.
Also: this would trample the rogue even harder because it threatens to ostensibly nearly double the number of skills the investigator has (because with the possible exceptions of handle animal and linguistics, all of these skills are abilities that most characters would really like to have!)
Also: this would trample the rogue even harder because it threatens to ostensibly nearly double the number of skills the investigator has (because with the possible exceptions of handle animal and linguistics, all of these skills are abilities that most characters would really like to have!)I consider that an argument in favor not against. If Paizo can't fix the rogue properly they need to replace it rather than saddle people who want to build a roguish character with a broken class. With this and the Slayer they appear to have finally realized that.
Hey: that is fair enough. Is replacing the rogue really something on the table, though? I tend to think that is not something Paizo is willing to do publicly. Mayhaps I am wrong though.
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Played a level 1 module today and went from 1 to 2. The one thing that would have been more useful to me is that the alchemist side of the archetype does not include a Detect Magic can-trip for the character to use in connection with Spell-craft.
If I am reading the character right, this Investigator is supposed to be a knowledge sponge - a walking encyclopedia. In my opinion, that includes the ability to identify items without having to use the Identify spell ALL the time.
Spells, again, my opinion, should be used when a guaranteed result is desired, otherwise, skills should be used - hence the desire for a Detect Magic/Spell-craft combination.