Exactly! It's an Investigator. It would be nice if it had the tools to live up to it's name a bit more. :)I like. Kill poison use and that 'Craft (alchemy) thing', add cantrips! I'd love it!You know, instead of the Craft (alchemy) thing, how about just giving the Investigator detect magic as an at-will cantrip? In fact, why not just give the class access to cantrips? Being able to detect magic, or conjure lights, or move objects without touching them, would all be very valuable to an Investigator class.+ 0.5 ;)
I'd go one step further and say the Investigator should have cantrips! These Cantrips are all rock solid choices for the Investigator
Detect magic
Detect poison
Mage hand
Open/Close
Sift And I wouldn’t mind these:
Mending
Message
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation:
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Stabilize
Dancing Lights (or Light)
Throw in Create Water and the Investigator can pose as drink vendor who uses Create Water and Prestidigitation to give you delicious, yet healthy drinks. If he had Ray of Frost, he could even make Snow Cones!
That is my idea and I will kill you if you try to steal it!
Just kidding!
（⊙_⊙）
I don't know about just giving them cantrips. Or at least, giving them cantrips that we are actually calling cantrips. Maybe the alchemist can get a special resource of "utility extracts" (3+int per day) that will give him access to a short list (like Graystone's first list) of cantrip-like abilities for hours/level a day.
Then perhaps as a talent, she could instead use these "utility extracts" to grant herself one or two useful investigator-y spells (like detect charm, restore corpse, or keep watch) that can be cast like 3 times during the duration of the spell.
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I think some SLAs of Cantrips would be useful.
In a world of magic, I'd hope the investigator could detect magic
I vote we just give alchemy extracts because you know... simplicity. The world probably wouldn't end if the local snake oil salesman learned to make a light show and now his stuff.
I vote we just give alchemy extracts because you know... simplicity. The world probably wouldn't end if the local snake oil salesman learned to make a light show and now his stuff.
Well, I maybe worry about the Investigator (or alchemist) handing out these extracts to buddies (and thus marginalizing certain racial traits and feats).
Now that I think about it, though. Rogue is Investigator's daddy and they have talents that give them spells.
Maybe there should just be a talent that gives them access to cantrips?
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I'd prefer to see certain cantrips lumped together in an investigator talent. Being able to use detect magic, detect poison, and 1 other cantrip of his choice at will, something like that.
I know it is uncouth to double post (and I kind of do it a lot due to my generally being super interested in the board for about 2 hours at a time), but I thought of a utility spell that I would love the investigator to have:
Sketch Artist
School: Divination
Level: Alchemist/Investigator 1,
Components: V, S, paper (or velum) and writing apparatus (see text)
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 minutes/caster level
For the duration of this spell, the caster may remember every single detail she sees in excruciating detail. These memories do not persist after the spell has ended. However, the caster may make an extremely accurate sketch of her memories before the spell has ended. The caster may make only a number of sketches per casting equal to her caster level.
A small drawing (about 6-inches by 6-inches) takes about a minute to draw. A medium drawing (about 12-inches by 12-inches) takes about 3 minutes to draw, while a large drawing (about 3-feet by 3-feet) take up 10 minutes to draw. All drawings must be completed before the spell's duration ends.
The quality of the drawings are limited by the quality of the tool used to draw it. A "free" drawing apparatus (like charcoal) will require the drawing to have certain stylizations since it cannot capture too much detail. A 100 gp apparatus (such as a fine pen) can produce a drawing of the equivalent quality to an extremely talented sketch artist. Meanwhile a 1000 gp apparatus (such as a magical pen or personal workspace with many tools) may create drawings with uncanny verisimilitude. The casting of the spell does not consume the drawing apparatus.
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I don't know about just giving them cantrips. Or at least, giving them cantrips that we are actually calling cantrips. Maybe the alchemist can get a special resource of "utility extracts" (3+int per day) that will give him access to a short list (like Graystone's first list) of cantrip-like abilities for hours/level a day.
Then perhaps as a talent, she could instead use these "utility extracts" to grant herself one or two useful investigator-y spells (like detect charm, restore corpse, or keep watch) that can be cast like 3 times during the duration of the spell.
The Investigator is not the Alchemist. It's a separate class. In fact, I think the biggest, hugest mistake this playtest could make would be to hardline any of these new classes into gaining nothing that the "parent classes" don't have. The whole point of a new class should be to get something new. In fact, every class in this book should offer at least something that the parent classes can't.
In other words, the two classes forming the base should be the inspiration for the new class, not a literal restrictive hardline under which it is created.
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I would love to see the Investigator be able to attempt to emulate certain cantrips with skills checks.
DC 20 Perception Check: Emulate Detect Magic
DC 20 Sense Motive Check: Detect Alignment
DC 20 Heal or Craft(Poison) Check: Detect Poison
DC 20 Perception Check (Smell Based): Detect Undead
DC 25 Heal Check: Blood Biography (Requires either a body or the scene of the crime)
DC 20 Linguistics Check: Read Magic
DC 25 Survival Check: Follow Aura
Knowledge Check to identify creature DC+20: Locate Weakness
Just a thought
There are many more investigator model characters than Sherlock Holmes, CSI, or the film-noire gumshoe.
- Banacek (1970s, television) - tough street kid who grew up to be an investogator. Solves "impossible" thefts. Has a bookstore owner who does his research for him. Gathers information by interviewing subjects.
- Ellery Queen (1970s, television) - brainy mystery author who uses logic to find the guilty party. Uses information gathered by the police combined with information gathered by interviewing subjects.
- Karl Kolchak (1970s, television) - reporter who uses reluctantly accepts the evidence his pursuit of a story digs up the reality of monsters and magic in the modern world. Researches solutions and weaknesses of the enemies, and gathers information by interviewing the subjects.
- Sam and Dean Winchester (current, television) - monster hunters, very apt for Pathfinder modeling. Use researched information and information gatherered via interviewing subjects.
- Randall Garrett's character Lord Darcy (book) - fantasy version of Holmes. Uses inspiration to connect disparate clues and see patterns others don't (his magical talent in that universe). Gathers information by interviewing subjects, and from his companion Chief Forensic Sorcerer's efforts.
What these have in common are two aspects: Research and Interviewing subjects. In some cases, the research is done by another, but the interviewing is done by the investigator himself.
Interviewing: A type of guided/targeted "Gather Information" Diplomacy check, in which the result is one or more pieces of information about a specific subject (a person, a family, an event, etc.) of interest, rather than current rumors in the area.
Research: This probably needs a new mechanic altogether. The mechanic should be available to all classes, but the Investigator should be able to excel at it, similar to the Ranger's bonus to Track and the Alchemist's bonus on crafting Alchemical Items. Assuming Research is a new skill, each successful check turns up 1 additional piece of information; DC for more rises based on the number of "facts" already gathered (by 2? 5? each).This allows Knowledge checks to go back to being "what you already know" and Research becomes the means of adding to that.
Adding half your level (or Inspiration) to gather information checks not only covers research pretty well, but the ease of it supersedes the concept of extended research projects.
Exactly! It's an Investigator. It would be nice if it had the tools to live up to it's name a bit more. :)I like. Kill poison use and that 'Craft (alchemy) thing', add cantrips! I'd love it!You know, instead of the Craft (alchemy) thing, how about just giving the Investigator detect magic as an at-will cantrip? In fact, why not just give the class access to cantrips? Being able to detect magic, or conjure lights, or move objects without touching them, would all be very valuable to an Investigator class.+ 0.5 ;)
I'd go one step further and say the Investigator should have cantrips! These Cantrips are all rock solid choices for the Investigator
Detect magic
Detect poison
Mage hand
Open/Close
Sift And I wouldn’t mind these:
Mending
Message
Ghost Sound
Prestidigitation:
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Stabilize
Dancing Lights (or Light)
Better yet, just call the ability Cantrip Master and just let them pick ANY cantrip and ignore what spell list it comes from. These kind of minor magic tricks fits the theme MUCH better that the other abilities. (IMO)
While I can kind of get behind the cantrip thing mechanically, this class is on the very very short list of classes that do things via science rather than magic, and I really don't want that to change.
Giving them some kind of Detect Magic (Ex) and Detect Poison (Ex) works just fine, but I actually really like the idea of investigators actually going around with hooded lanterns and white gloves and thunderstones and such.
So it does it with alchemy vs 'magic' I could care less how you fluff it. nothing stops them using "hooded lanterns and white gloves and thunderstones" just that they mix some chemicals to make the light ect...
I would love to see the Investigator be able to attempt to emulate certain cantrips with skills checks.
DC 20 Perception Check: Emulate Detect Magic
DC 20 Sense Motive Check: Detect Alignment
DC 20 Heal or Craft(Poison) Check: Detect Poison
DC 20 Perception Check (Smell Based): Detect Undead
DC 25 Heal Check: Blood Biography (Requires either a body or the scene of the crime)
DC 20 Linguistics Check: Read Magic
DC 25 Survival Check: Follow Aura
Knowledge Check to identify creature DC+20: Locate WeaknessJust a thought
this would be great, though i'd argue the detect undead perception checks needn't necessarily be smell based.
this would be great, though i'd argue the detect undead perception checks needn't necessarily be smell based.I would love to see the Investigator be able to attempt to emulate certain cantrips with skills checks.
DC 20 Perception Check: Emulate Detect Magic
DC 20 Sense Motive Check: Detect Alignment
DC 20 Heal or Craft(Poison) Check: Detect Poison
DC 20 Perception Check (Smell Based): Detect Undead
DC 25 Heal Check: Blood Biography (Requires either a body or the scene of the crime)
DC 20 Linguistics Check: Read Magic
DC 25 Survival Check: Follow Aura
Knowledge Check to identify creature DC+20: Locate WeaknessJust a thought
Oh sure, It could be any number of things... he could hear bones clicking etc.
Anyway, I have thought for a while that there should be some effects like these added to skills. There aren't a lot of reasons to go beyond a certain point in skills, but if a DC 40 perception check got you the same information as a casting of Arcane Sight or See Invisibility for a round or something, it could give some power back to the non-casters... or at least let them feel less marginalized.
It seems like every skill usage has a magical counterpart, where the wizard can just say, "Oh you can do that? So can I, because magic." I think it is only fair that a highly skilled character be able to flip that script....
Wizard: "Hold on, I think I sense an aura of magic in this area."
Investigator: "Indeed. A powerful abjurist was here recently. Female. Five foot four inches in height, wearing rather expensive shoes and smelling faintly of lilac. If you look closely, you can still make out a faint residue left by a casting of a Resilient Sphere spell. That my dear Watzard is what has allowed this woman to survive that foul beast we just slew."
Wizard:"I..ummm... I knew that."
Investigator: "I am sure you would have gotten it eventually, but do try not to strain yourself."
You can already grab detect magic via rogue talent.
I'd like to make a quick observation that what the cinematic Sherlock Holmes does looks suspiciously like flurry of blows. Could Studied Strike be a thing that gives you full BAB for your attack and an extra strike?
You can already grab detect magic via rogue talent.
That however with an investment and its got x/day attached. Double ouch! To be honest I wish alchemy came with some cantrips of its own, but can't change that now.
this would be great, though i'd argue the detect undead perception checks needn't necessarily be smell based.I would love to see the Investigator be able to attempt to emulate certain cantrips with skills checks.
DC 20 Perception Check: Emulate Detect Magic
DC 20 Sense Motive Check: Detect Alignment
DC 20 Heal or Craft(Poison) Check: Detect Poison
DC 20 Perception Check (Smell Based): Detect Undead
DC 25 Heal Check: Blood Biography (Requires either a body or the scene of the crime)
DC 20 Linguistics Check: Read Magic
DC 25 Survival Check: Follow Aura
Knowledge Check to identify creature DC+20: Locate WeaknessJust a thought
Oh sure, It could be any number of things... he could hear bones clicking etc.
Anyway, I have thought for a while that there should be some effects like these added to skills. There aren't a lot of reasons to go beyond a certain point in skills, but if a DC 40 perception check got you the same information as a casting of Arcane Sight or See Invisibility for a round or something, it could give some power back to the non-casters... or at least let them feel less marginalized.
It seems like every skill usage has a magical counterpart, where the wizard can just say, "Oh you can do that? So can I, because magic." I think it is only fair that a highly skilled character be able to flip that script....
Wizard: "Hold on, I think I sense an aura of magic in this area."
Investigator: "Indeed. A powerful abjurist was here recently. Female. Five foot four inches in height, wearing rather expensive shoes and smelling faintly of lilac. If you look closely, you can still make out a faint residue left by a casting of a Resilient Sphere spell. That my dear Watzard is what has allowed this woman to survive that foul beast we just slew."
Wizard:"I..ummm... I knew that."
Investigator: "I am sure you would have gotten it eventually, but do try not to strain yourself."
qft
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I'd prefer to see certain cantrips lumped together in an investigator talent. Being able to use detect magic, detect poison, and 1 other cantrip of his choice at will, something like that.
Cantrips from start or as a talent doesn't matter. As long as he gets some cantrips.
I do however agree that making it an option using talents is a cool way of solving a possible designer problem (if the Devs even find it to be a problem).Although I would give it magic, detect poison, and 2 other cantrips of his choice.
You can already grab detect magic via rogue talent.That however with an investment and its got x/day attached. Double ouch! To be honest I wish alchemy came with some cantrips of its own, but can't change that now.
Anything can be changed. :)
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The problem is rogue talents are pretty awful, and the magic ones are no different. I mean come on, is it really so broken to be able to cast light or detect magic that it has to be limited to three times per day?
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The problem is rogue talents are pretty awful, and the magic ones are no different. I mean come on, is it really so broken to be able to cast light or detect magic that it has to be limited to three times per day?
Agree.
I never undetstood why minor magic is so bad.Anyway, the Investigator isn't the rogue and the Investigator does have spells/Extracts so give it cantrips.
If you want to be the cantripping detective, why not just take one level of Arcanist?
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If you want to be the cantripping detective, why not just take one level of Arcanist?
a) because I want to play an Investigator
b) ASF| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to be the cantripping detective, why not just take one level of Arcanist?a) because I want to play an Investigator
b) ASF
The whole point of the hybrid classes was to be able to play a concept from 1-20 without multiclassing. If you still have to multiclass to make a simple concept work, the base class itself needs some work.
I should hope an investigator has some degree of magical detection in a world full of magic.
The whole point of the hybrid classes was to be able to play a concept from 1-20 without multiclassing. If you still have to multiclass to make a simple concept work, the base class itself needs some work.If you want to be the cantripping detective, why not just take one level of Arcanist?a) because I want to play an Investigator
b) ASF
+100%
If you want some degree of magical detection in a world of magic, you take rogue talent (minor magic).
Phrenological examination: With a dc 15 perception check you can use your knowledge of the effects on of the facial and cracnial features on personality and proclivities to determine the exact stat or skill bonus by examining a creature.
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If you want to be the cantripping detective, why not just take one level of Arcanist?a) because I want to play an Investigator
b) ASF
Best answer ever. ^^
I can understand not wanting to make an Investigator talent that is essentially a more powerful version of what already exists as a rogue talent, although the a lot of the talents do that to eachother already, but I digress. Any player of mine that wanted to be a slightly magic rogue would get the talent houseruled anyway, so it's not a big issue.
I don't know about just giving them cantrips. Or at least, giving them cantrips that we are actually calling cantrips. Maybe the alchemist can get a special resource of "utility extracts" (3+int per day) that will give him access to a short list (like Graystone's first list) of cantrip-like abilities for hours/level a day.
Then perhaps as a talent, she could instead use these "utility extracts" to grant herself one or two useful investigator-y spells (like detect charm, restore corpse, or keep watch) that can be cast like 3 times during the duration of the spell.
The Investigator is not the Alchemist. It's a separate class. In fact, I think the biggest, hugest mistake this playtest could make would be to hardline any of these new classes into gaining nothing that the "parent classes" don't have. The whole point of a new class should be to get something new. In fact, every class in this book should offer at least something that the parent classes can't.
In other words, the two classes forming the base should be the inspiration for the new class, not a literal restrictive hardline under which it is created.
Nut if you fundamentally change the casting of the class then it will have almost nothing from the parent class.
People in all these threads seem to just want all new classes rather than keeping with the multiclass theme. That is fine. It is okay to want that. However, I am going to continue making suggestions that keep in mind that not everything in these classes will be new.
Hence: I am not going to suggest breaking the rule of giving the potion guy spells unless it is a non-essential class feature.
The problem is rogue talents are pretty awful, and the magic ones are no different. I mean come on, is it really so broken to be able to cast light or detect magic that it has to be limited to three times per day?Agree.
I never undetstood why minor magic is so bad.
The reason, from what I recall, is primarily due to ray of frost and acid splash. And their combination with sneak attack to create easy touch-AC sneak attacks that bypass the whole idea of misses-more-often-but-hits-like-a-truck thing with the rogue.
The reason, from what I recall, is primarily due to ray of frost and acid splash. And their combination with sneak attack to create easy touch-AC sneak attacks that bypass the whole idea of misses-more-often-but-hits-like-a-truck thing with the rogue.The problem is rogue talents are pretty awful, and the magic ones are no different. I mean come on, is it really so broken to be able to cast light or detect magic that it has to be limited to three times per day?Agree.
I never undetstood why minor magic is so bad.
Except that that doesn't actually do that much damage?
Primarily, it's because it's one rogue talent. If you want cantrips and a nice 1st level spell or two, take a level of sorcerer, or wait for the sorcerer/rogue hybrid class to come out.
Lead Designer
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In anticipation of a revised version of the playtest document going live, this thread is locked. A new thread will be created to discuss the revised version of the class. Please refrain from carrying over existing discussions to the new thread to avoid confusion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer