| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The abberent saved me a lot of typing.
I also think they should be proficient with fire arms to feel like most incarnations of a detective character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I also think they should be proficient with fire arms to feel like most incarnations of a detective character.
This would be better in an archetype, since a lot of people don't want firearms in their settings. Keep it simple for them to ban what they don't like without losing the whole class.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What if there were "schools" of training for the Investigator class?
What I am envisioning is a set of abilities I guess more or less set up like an Oracle's Mysteries or a Ranger's Combat Styles. Each of the schools would have its own specific set of skills that can be used for the Inspiration class feature.
I was inspired (LOL) by an episode of CSI and all the jobs that the characters there do.
For example, there could be a school like the lab/forensic technician that specializes in alchemy, receives options for mutagens (both mental and physical), discoveries, and gets the poison abilities and resistances with the possibly of bombs as an offensive balance.
Another school could have more of a SWAT style feel to it and have abilities built around teamwork feats and doing specific tasks along with assistance from allies, ranged weapons from being hidden, and have a sneak attack progression.
The last school could be built around tracking and have terrain mastery and the same tracking theme as a ranger. Heck, throw in an animal companion or a familiar-type creature option; that would be awesome. Perhaps a blending of alchemical uses of non-magic items like the Footprint Book or the Portrait Book as tools or as an alternate focus for an extract. Maybe some divination spells as spell-like abilities? No sneak or bombs option here.
Just some thoughts on how to organize this class.... because it has so many possibilities. These kind of sound like archtypes though. My $.02
I also think they should be proficient with fire arms to feel like most incarnations of a detective character.This would be better in an archetype, since a lot of people don't want firearms in their settings. Keep it simple for them to ban what they don't like without losing the whole class.
Agreed, and they already have access to the Firearm Training rogue talent... you probably can't afford much of a gun until 3rd level anyway, so that could be the first thing you take.
And Grit is also a non-advanced rogue talent, so they are fairly well set up to get these things with class features... or you can just spend the Feats.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 8
|
I played a 1st level Investigator in a Pathfinder Society scenario last night.
I went with an Elf as much for the sleep immunity, low-light vision, and perception bonus as for the useful ability scores. I found my extract of blend(elf only) most useful, since it let me sneak around at the beginning of a fight and get into a good tactical position. I drank my elixirs, and burned my inspiration on attack rolls that didn't do much damage. Once I’d used up my daily abilities, I was still able to do some stealthy scouting, and amusingly most of my damage for the night due to a lucky critical hit with a throwing axe.
Generally speaking, it feels like the investigator is expected to have all the knowledge skills, social skills, and rogue skills. Even with a highly intelligent human, you just can’t pick up every skill in one level. I ended up jealous of the Skald’s bardic knowledge, but I’m sure the investigator would have compared much better at second level when I could afford to become trained in every knowledge skill.
I’m still convinced the investigator needs an ability it can use in a fight at low levels. Not necessarily bombs or sneak attack, but having neither made me feel significantly less capable than either an alchemist or a rogue.
Let's try to get a brain storm going on what we can add for offense.
A per day use item like bombs or a bonus?
That is pretty much where my head's been at.
Lvl+int times per day you get to augment an attack to deal an additional Xd6 damage. This would replace sneak attack, but not require dexless or flanking.... AND since it is both limited use and functionally worse than either sneak attack OR bombs, you can give it at level 1 with no worries about dipping and keep an 8d6 progression
So, since it has come up before, lets try to actually write out the class feature as it would appear. I like calling this studied strike, and I think it should be limited to once per round (perhaps more with a talent like the Fast Bombs discovery... I don't want an investigator to be able to throw out any crazy burst damage).
So, here we go
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------
At 2nd level, an investigator can study his opponents to find a weak point in their defenses or a flaw in their attack style. An investigator can make a studied strike a number of times per day equal to his level plus intelligence bonus. The investigator must declare that he is making a studied strike before making his attack roll. If the studied strike hits, it deals additional damage. This extra damage is 1d6 at 2nd level, and increases by 1d6 every two investigator levels thereafter. Should the investigator score a critical hit with a studied strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. An investigator can only make a studied strike against a target if they are within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), an investigator can make a studied strike that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage.
The investigator must be able to see the target well enough to study the target's movements and defenses. An investigator cannot make a studied strike while attacking a creature with concealment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------
I would say it would work better with no limits per day, but as a full round action. Then there's no 'I am only good at combat' once or twice. Plus it still feels like sneak attack but rather than on every attack it qualifiers for, it's just once per round, all day long. Also makes the class more stand-alone, as they don't need flank like a rogue, but don't get as many attack with the big bullet.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seriously, who are these fictional detectives that are not good at sneak attacks? We're not talking Jessica Fletcher here.The list of detectives who ARE good at sneak attacks would be much, much shorter and generally more recent.
Most detective stories were focused on the mystery, and fighting was minimal or non-existent. And even the later hardboiled detectives tended to be boxers and wrestler types.
Sneaky underhanded fighting detectives are pretty recent. Sam Vimes, post-Frank Miller Batman, newer depictions of Holmes.
Having said that, I don't have any particular objection to sneak attack for the investigator. It may be a more recent development, but that doesn't mean it's a bad development.
That really depends on who is a "detective." Right off the bat, Sherlock Holmes, the literary Sherlock Holmes, contrary to what has been stated above, was an expert of "baritsu." Baritsu is a munging or possibly a misspelling of Bartitsu, an importation of jiujitsu from Japan by an English boxer and dirty tricks defense expert named Barton. This expertise is implied to be stunning. Furthermore, Sherlock Holmes's primary combat tactic, whether by fist or pistol, was sneaking. Sneaking, sneaking, and more sneaking. The other thing he did was ready an action to shoot someone who tried to escape. The cinematic Holmes is more, well, cinematic, but is absolutely true in spirit to the style and capabilities of the literary Holmes.
Then there are Batman and Dick Tracy, both of whom are renowned for jumping into rooms full of mooks and one-punching them. I don't know how many sneak attack dice Dick Tracy has, but he's probably more of a fighter-investigator than a pure investigator anyway.
I think you can also throw in the Scarlet Pimpernel and Professor Van Helsing. Even Dr. Jekyll fits as a 2nd level Investigator, although in his case he was mostly investigating himself. Ichobod Crane, in the Johnny Depp movie. In each case, I think you can see some lower level characters, who don't have sneak attack yet, and then higher level characters, who clearly have stronger ability in combat.
Overall, I see the class as geared toward the shady dealer in elixers, the anachronistic watchman detective, and of course, the classic detective for the steampunk settings that are surely coming down the pipe. I would be very surprised if, assuming Paizo doesn't have their own plans, there weren't one or more Paizo freelancers already sharpening their pencils to do some steampunk related stuff.
I would say it would work better with no limits per day, but as a full round action. Then there's no 'I am only good at combat' once or twice. Plus it still feels like sneak attack but rather than on every attack it qualifiers for, it's just once per round, all day long. Also makes the class more stand-alone, as they don't need flank like a rogue, but don't get as many attack with the big bullet.
I forgot to put in that it is also only once per round in the description.
Basically this is like an alchemist throwing a bomb, only attaching the damage to an attack instead of a bomb.
Bombs are obviously better, since they target touch AC, can add all sorts of neat effects, and deal splash damage. Sneak attack is obviously better if you can meet the conditions, because it is unlimited.
The progression I suggested starts at 2nd and caps at 10d6 at 20th. This is good since the investigator is getting Inspirations at odd levels, and it isn't a big dip problem because it is limited.
It will still feel like sneak attack because it is precision damage that applies to an attack, and it still doesn't work against concealment and you need to be within 30ft.
So, in many ways this takes the negatives from both bombs (limited use, only once per round without a discovery, or in this case an inspiration) and sneak attack (not usable on creatures immune to crits or that have concealment) but it has the same damage progression (albeit delayed by one level).
This makes sense to me, since the investigator is already getting a lot of really nice stuff. It is a true admixture of the two class abilities that it derives from, and it releases an investigator from the flank/feint/shatter defenses et all requirements.
This reflects the batman style of fighting just as well as it does sherlock holmes. Thematically, it is appropriate, and mechanically, it SHOULD be worse than bombs or sneak attack.
Funny how many of these classes benefit from 2 levels of MoMS. I wonder if we'll see changes to it.
I think the investigator should be at least allowed to apply his intelligence modifier to damage, even alchemists can do that. This could work quite well but would need some talents that support it. I suppose this ability could count as sneak attack for talents and feats.
At 2nd level, an investigator can study his opponents to find a weak point in their defenses or a flaw in their attack style. An investigator can make a studied strike a number of times per day equal to his level plus intelligence bonus. The investigator must declare that he is making a studied strike before making his attack roll. If the studied strike hits, it deals additional damage. This extra damage is 1d6 at 2nd level, and increases by 1d6 every two investigator levels thereafter. Should the investigator score a critical hit with a studied strike, this extra damage is not multiplied. An investigator can only make a studied strike against a target if they are within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), an investigator can make a studied strike that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage.
The investigator must be able to see the target well enough to study the target's movements and defenses. An investigator cannot make a studied strike...
Yes, I would say that sneak attack talents should apply to this.
As for Int to damage, its a doable thing, but I wanted to set the ability conclusively behind both sneak attack and bombs.But for me, this is better than sneak attack because I no longer have to worry about the sneak attack conditions. You can get a lot of mileage out of sneak attack... but if you work on that angle it can end up dominating your build and eating all your feats.
This frees up the investigator to be a very open class. They could take talents to augment this further, sure. They could get extra uses with a feat one would imagine. The door is pretty open.
But not having to worry about sneak attack conditions is the real saving grace here. And besides, you are also getting weapon damage, and an alchemist doesn't do that without a discovery.
|
I really love this class and I got started playing it in a PFS scenario last week. I love it because I love sneaky, versatile, skill monkey types and I think the rogue is pretty busted. A few thoughts:
-I agree with what I take to be the consensus, that at low levels, the investigator can't do much in combat. I did a total of 4 damage the other night during a scenario-length dungeon crawl.
-This class is not SAD. It is meant to be a dexy build for the sake of sneaking, disabling traps and locks, and making the other really fun, dex-based skill checks. So, you need Int, Dex, Con if you want to live long enough to start the sneak attack progression, Wis if you want to spot those traps, and, if you want to play more of a social rogue type, Cha. The thing about being a skill monkey is that you have to have the abilities that underlie the skills you want to use. People will alway find ways to damage-optimize. It's no reason to gimp classes that excel at other phases of the game.
-Inspiration is the biggest reason to play this class and 1d6 is the right level for it to start. The thing about making skill checks, is that if you fail, you often don't get a second chance. It's great to improve your odds of success when you absolutely, positively must stealth that guard or disable that magical device.
-Please no guns. I understand the reasons for wanting a Philip Marlow, but guns ruin fantasy games. Hitting touch AC with a Dex-based character to do the kinds of damage guns do is ridiculous. I've had more than one scenario ruined because a gunslinger one-shot all the encounters.
-I think poison use is fine thematically. Whether it is out of keeping with the detective of literature is immaterial. Just because Sherlock is the point of departure for the class, doesn't mean that the Investigator has to be a jot for jot representation of him or anybody else. My problem with poison use is that it is not very good. It's expensive, you burn action economy using it, and it doesn't often deliver. I have a level 9 ninja in an adventure path, and I think he's used poison twice, with the baddie making the save both times.
-I am a bit conflicted about sneak attack. I think it's fine thematically. Pathfinder games turn on combat in a way that Sherlock's adventures did not, so every class must have a way to participate. The problem is the mechanics. I see this class as being all-in on the role of skill monkey, and only doing damage as a secondary role. At first glance, the lower dice progression makes sense, except that being effective with sneak attack requires an investment in feats like two-handed, mobility, etc. If you want to be a combat rogue, I say play a ninja. With the lower progression, I don't think I'll build the class to get the most out of sneak attacks. I think this class should be doing something in combat other than drawing blood. Maybe give the class Combat Expertise (an Int-based feat anyway) and something like whip proficiency to make maneuvers at range. (The sword cane is cool thematically, but it can't be used with Weapon Finesse. At 3/4 BAB and minimal strength, I don't think I'm going to be using it.)
-Suggestion for a replacement: What about an ability that lets the Investigator make a knowledge check to ID the baddie's weaknesses. In addition to the usual benefits, the investigator can, with a high enough roll, simulate the effects of magic properties that hit those weaknesses. For example, if he passes the check by 5 or more, he can simulate the ability of a +1 magic enhancement; if he passes it by 10 or more, he can simulate a +2 enhancement, and so on. This ability could be limited by costing Inspiration points. Perhaps, consistent with my opinion that the Investigator shouldn't be dealing damage, he could spend a standard action (and maybe more inspiration points) to hand out these insight-based buffs to PCs that are better at whacking things. This fits thematically, in that the Investigator can think his way out of any jam, and mechanically. It's really a buzzkill to end up in combats when no one can get around DR, and this would be a good thing for a brainy character to do in a fight.
The Investigator should keep Sneak Attack because:
"I want to play a full Base Attack Bonus combatant!"
"OK! How about a Fighter?"
"Naw, not really feeling it."
"Oh, ok then, how about a Combatant loyal to the church like the Paladin, or a skilled outdoorsman with his trusty companion animal like the Ranger, or maybe a raging Tribesman like the Barbarian!"
"Those all sound really interesting! I think I'll try the Ranger!"
or-
"I want to play a Divine caster!"
"OK! How about the Cleric?"
"Naw, not really feeling it."
"Oh, ok then, how about a servant of the church who is one part secret agent and one part monster hunter like the Inquisitor, or maybe a cursed spontaneous vessel of the gods like the Oracle, or perhaps a warden of nature like the Druid?"
"Those all sound really interesting! I think I'll try the Inquisitor!"
but how about-
"I think I want to have some fun with Sneak Attack!"
"OK! How about the Rogue?"
"Naw, not really feeling it."
"Well I run PFS rules so no Vivisectionists, and Eastern flavor doesn't fit my setting so no Ninjas, so how about you go F*** yourself!"
:(
So, then you suggest Slayer?
I also don't think it is fair to say that a mechanic needs to be proliferated. Its a mechanic, not a trope in and of itself. If you want to be a sneaky sniping ranger... you can.
This is just like saying
"I want to play a Full BAB divine caster!"
"well you can be a paladin"
"Naw not feelin it"
"Well then you're screwed!!! MUAHAHAHA!!"
Ah, how much sweeter life would be if Paizo had just turned Paladin into a prestige class, as it was almost meant to be.
|
|
The inspiration mechanic is the highlight for me, which I wouldn't mind seeing expanded somewhat. How does it interact with natural 1s though?
A talent or advanced talent, that allowed inspiration (or two?) to be spent to avoid the auto-fail on a natural 1 attack roll or saving throw would be nice.
Though a 3/4 BAB class is unlikely to be hitting much on a natural 1 attack roll, I admit. Could do away with those moments when you've stacked all your eggs in one basket, to bash the sentry. "He was right there! With his back to me! How could I miss?"
|
|
-I think poison use is fine thematically. Whether it is out of keeping with the detective of literature is immaterial. Just because Sherlock is the point of departure for the class, doesn't mean that the Investigator has to be a jot for jot representation of him or anybody else. My problem with poison use is that it is not very good. It's expensive, you burn action economy using it, and it doesn't often deliver. I have a level 9 ninja in an adventure path, and I think he's used poison twice, with the baddie making the save both times.
I also have no problem with poison use.
I think much of the unease about allowing PCs to use poison is a legacy issue, because in 1st/2nd Edition, poison could totally ruin someone's day, with one bad roll meaning auto-death.
There's been a steady decline in the efficiency of poison in game, death being rare and expensive toxins only, reducing the default effect to ability damage.
PF made it even less effective than in 3.5, the victim having to first fail a save before they need to begin making further saves to avoid damage.
Poison Use is one of those abilities that isn't usually worth a feat, and forcing people to test whether they stick the poison in their own ear seems a heavy-handed way of discouraging its use.
Plenty of classes play with many toxic or dangerous materials, and never seem to come off badly. How many casters routinely and deliberately set themselves on fire, with no effect on themselves or posessions?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think more of the unease is due to how inefficient poison is. Sure, you can make it worthwhile, if you're an alcemist with the various poison discoveries, MAster Alchemist, and being the Daggermark Poisoner PrC.
Otherwise, it's really impractical.
(The sword cane is cool thematically, but it can't be used with Weapon Finesse...
{in Professor Farnsworth voice:} Good news, everyone!:
SWORD CANE: This slender light blade lies within a wooden container that serves as both its scabbard and hiding place. You can draw the blade as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must succeed at a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a sword cane sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. You can’t wield a sword cane in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm still thinking the hang-up on Holmes, or any fictional stereotype for that matter, is the wrong touchstone to evaluate the class. Most players I think could build a Holmes out of a Ranger, Alchemist, Bard, Wizard or Rogue fairly easily, or a Batman out of a Ninja...it's just a rp template. The Investigator doesn't have to be a 'How to make Sherlock Holmes for Dummies' base class. The question that should be focused on for evaluating this class is 'what role is it supposed to play?'
He's a skill monkey. With a grab bag of abilities, especially if you are drawing from the Thief tricks. A few of those are situational, some very much so.
I'd agree, low levels (1st to 3rd), the Investigator is a bit behind the contribution curve when it comes to combat (y'know that thing that composes about 80 to 90% of the playtime for a lot of groups, and the number #1 solution to most problems in D&D;-). Clever players will have some ideas of how to contribute, but in large part it's going to be a light armored guy with probably about 3 first level short term self-buffs and not enough attribute points and cash\time to go around to focus on his skill monkey role and the combat stats. Fortunately, those first 3 levels go by pretty quickly...5 to 8 sessions maybe), but until then it'll take a focused player to find the In Character time to mix up alchemical equipment\poisons and come up with strategies that make him a bit more effective in combat consistently than a commoner for more than a few rounds a day.
I don't think it'll be an issue for mid-range levels. Most PCs should get some downtime at that point so they can do the crafting and other essential equipment picks beyond the incidental treasure pick-ups to have a role other than the 'trap-finder' duty and 'knowledge check guy' that has probably been their main function up to that point. I dabbled with a level 7 for a session and managed to contribute in combat using poisons, alchemical items, and other miscellaneous tricks. The sneak attack was a bit hard to deploy...putting points into acrobatics would have meant sacrificing skill points from knowledges and perception\disable device,
Granted on the other hand, a class that has too many features that really only come into play in out of combat situations risks falling into that 3.0 Bard pitfall (the 5th character). If the class is only good at finding clues and moving the plot forward... something that most DMs will force along anyway... is it a class that is really bringing something to the table and is it actually getting a feature?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
(The sword cane is cool thematically, but it can't be used with Weapon Finesse...{in Professor Farnsworth voice:} Good news, everyone!:
SWORD CANE: This slender light blade lies within a wooden container that serves as both its scabbard and hiding place. You can draw the blade as a swift action (or a free action if you have the Quick Draw feat). An observer must succeed at a DC 20 Perception check to realize an undrawn sword cane is a weapon rather than a walking stick; the DC decreases to 10 if the observer is able to handle the weapon. You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a sword cane sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. You can’t wield a sword cane in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage.
Sweet! Happy to stand corrected.
|
|
I want the class to have a martial arts as well, but it's more of a gentlemanly martial arts. A martial arts that represents the knowledge of a doctor, of sorts, with the appropriate knowledge of which area's of the body are weaker than others, how to compound an injury etc...
I really like this idea. An ability allowing him to add his Heal score to his damage could be very interesting, and different than anything else that's out there.
Or apply his score in the applicable Knowledge skill to his damage against creatures of that type. This would give him a nice damage boost and it would be different enough from the Ranger or Rogue to not step on anyones toes. It would be a pretty substantial boost to base damage though... Maybe add ranks in the applicable Knowledge skill to damage against appropriate critters? That'd put the damage boost on par with a cavalier's progression but tied to s skill-reliant 3/4 BAB class.... He wouldn't spike quite as high on damage as a rogue, but he'd still have solid combat viability.
It would give him a nice sturdy boost to damage that ties into the idea that he's a character relying on intelligence and learning.
That'd be awesome.
i'd be fine with bonus damage equal to heal ranks on every attack, multipliable on a crit as untyped static damage.
|
|
i'd be fine with bonus damage equal to heal ranks on every attack, multipliable on a crit as untyped static damage.A +10 to damage on each attack at 10th level...
Which is about 1/3 less than the average damage of a same level Rogue when he Sneak Attacks and 1/3 of his total possible Sneak Attack, but multipliable on a crit. Seems about right to me. I'm inclined to like the Knowledge skill idea more than Heal though, as it puts a certain emphasis on the fields the Inquisitor has chosen to study, instead of a blanket skill that may or may not make sense depending on whether the creature you're attacking has a consistent or discernible anatomy.
|
Which is about 1/3 less than the average damage of a same level Rogue when he Sneak Attacks and 1/3 of his total possible Sneak Attack, but multipliable on a crit. Seems about right to me. I'm inclined to like the Knowledge skill idea more than Heal though, as it puts a certain emphasis on the fields the Inquisitor has chosen to study, instead of a blanket skill that may or may not make sense depending on whether the creature you're attacking has a consistent or discernible anatomy.i'd be fine with bonus damage equal to heal ranks on every attack, multipliable on a crit as untyped static damage.A +10 to damage on each attack at 10th level...
On all attacks, not just sneak attack. Ranged, melee...not nearly the same.
Knowledge is a bit more reasonable, but that is a ton of bookkeeping to find out what you are fighting and what your bonuses are.
Which is about 1/3 less than the average damage of a same level Rogue when he Sneak Attacks and 1/3 of his total possible Sneak Attack, but multipliable on a crit. Seems about right to me. I'm inclined to like the Knowledge skill idea more than Heal though, as it puts a certain emphasis on the fields the Inquisitor has chosen to study, instead of a blanket skill that may or may not make sense depending on whether the creature you're attacking has a consistent or discernible anatomy.i'd be fine with bonus damage equal to heal ranks on every attack, multipliable on a crit as untyped static damage.A +10 to damage on each attack at 10th level...
every creature has a weak point, somewhere, even if you can't discern it, heal is also the skill used for torture, autopsies and dissections.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Which is about 1/3 less than the average damage of a same level Rogue when he Sneak Attacks and 1/3 of his total possible Sneak Attack, but multipliable on a crit. Seems about right to me. I'm inclined to like the Knowledge skill idea more than Heal though, as it puts a certain emphasis on the fields the Inquisitor has chosen to study, instead of a blanket skill that may or may not make sense depending on whether the creature you're attacking has a consistent or discernible anatomy.i'd be fine with bonus damage equal to heal ranks on every attack, multipliable on a crit as untyped static damage.A +10 to damage on each attack at 10th level...On all attacks, not just sneak attack. Ranged, melee...not nearly the same.
Knowledge is a bit more reasonable, but that is a ton of bookkeeping to find out what you are fighting and what your bonuses are.
the +10 to damage on all attacks at 10th level, melee or ranged, requires you to waste 10 skill points on an otherwise rarely used skill, a skill that should provide combat related bonuses. even then, the 3/4 bab limits damage output and feat aquisition enough to balance this out. it's also very movie sherlock holmesy, he targeted weak points through analysis.
|
|
On all attacks, not just sneak attack. Ranged, melee...not nearly the same.
Knowledge is a bit more reasonable, but that is a ton of bookkeeping to find out what you are fighting and what your bonuses are.
Well, it is the Advanced Class Guide. I don't see how knowing what creature types your knowledge skill relates to is any more bookkeeping than tracking your spell-lists for any class, or even plotting out feat trees, remembering what all conditions Sneak Attack can be applied under, tracking all of the static changes of higher level Rage when you've picked up several Rage powers that provide static boosts, etc.
You make one Knowledge check when you see the creature (a non-action typically I believe) and say, "Oh, that's a dragon? I hear they have weak knees. I get +8 damage from my ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) on attacks against it."
On all attacks, not just sneak attack. Ranged, melee...not nearly the same.
Knowledge is a bit more reasonable, but that is a ton of bookkeeping to find out what you are fighting and what your bonuses are.
Well, it is the Advanced Class Guide. I don't see how knowing what creature types your knowledge skill relates to is any more bookkeeping than tracking your spell-lists for any class, or even plotting out feat trees, remembering what all conditions Sneak Attack can be applied under, tracking all of the static changes of higher level Rage when you've picked up several Rage powers that provide static boosts, etc.
You make one Knowledge check when you see the creature (a non-action typically I believe) and say, "Oh, that's a dragon? I hear they have weak knees. I get +8 damage from my ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) on attacks against it."
if you based the investigator's damage bonus on knowledge, they have the downside of having next to no skill points to use for things besides knowledge. and trust me, you are going to desperately desire that damage modifier. taxing it all on heal as a blanket skill is sufficient. if they keyed it off knowledge. they would need to give the investigator 14+ int skills per level to afford the knowledges, or something like versatile performance, but for knowledges.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, just made an investigator for a PFS PbP, and here are my thoughts so far, roughly as I thought them up:
No clue if any of this is going to be useful to the design team.
|
|
if you based the investigator's damage bonus on knowledge, they have the downside of having next to no skill points to use for things besides knowledge. and trust me, you are going to desperately desire that damage modifier. taxing it all on heal as a blanket skill is sufficient. if they keyed it off knowledge. they would need to give the investigator 14+ int skills per level to afford the knowledges, or something like versatile performance, but for knowledges.
You wouldn't need 14+ skills per level, you'd need to prioritize what skills are important, and when. Ultimately the Investigator is going to have plenty of Skill points with his emphasis on INT, he just isn't going to have them all at once. Which is fine. Rangers don't come into the world knowing how to kill every type of monster in existence, and an Investigator can't be expected to have read every book on every subject right away. Besides, only 5 of the 10 Knowledges are applicable to identifying monsters anyway. Starting out, Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Nature) should cover the vast bulk of critters you're likely to run into ( or instead maybe Religion and/or Dungeoneering depending on the adventure).
Expanded Inspiration (Ex): An investigator can use
his inspiration on Diplomacy, Perception, Profession,
and Sense Motive checks without expending uses of
inspiration, provided he’s trained in the skill.
Right now, Perception is a free action to use, meaning you can't use it out of your turn....Intent is clear, but I'm not sure RAW you can even use Inspiration on Perception unless it's...man, that's a weird corner case.
|
|
Wow, it's lame that just to use extracts and disable traps, I need to spend 1/3rd of my starting gold. Or 1/2 of my starting gold for non-PFS games. [i]Maybe there should be an investigator's brewing kit that has all the tools for just extracts, since they can't use 2/3rds of the things alchemist's crafting kit lets you make.
Agreed.
Plus, those big iron balls, with a wick in the top, to make comedy bombs must be really heavy.I bet a kit that didn't include them would be much smaller, lighter, and easier to carry or conceal.
|
I have to admit, I'm liking the idea of some kind of Heal based bonus, and there is a way to get your Heal skill to run off of your intelligence.
I thought alchemists didn't qualify for Arcane Strike?...
Well, I'm useless in combat. May as well grab arcane strike so I can contribute against anyone with DR / magic. And do some extra damage.
...
They can't. Elves with the Envoy alternative racial trait can though.
So that's how I'm going to be useful.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's try to get a brain storm going on what we can add for offense.
A per day use item like bombs or a bonus?
Funny. Studied Strike. I put something together with that name before I left the office on Friday. It works differently, but it was fun seeing the name up here.
one bonus i would like for the investigator (and the alchemist)
True chemistry
PRereq: Infusion, brew potion, level 10
Your remarkable knowledge of reagents medicines and chemicals allows you to mimic spells without even the slightest magic.
you can chose to prepare your extracts nonmagicaly. doing so reduces your effective caster level by 3 on that extract. non-magical extracts are treated as mundane objects and are unaffected by antimagic, dispelling or magic detection of any kind, in addition they function outside of the alchemists possession. however they are extremely volatile and will expire 4 hours after preperation.
Funny. Studied Strike. I put something together with that name before I left the office on Friday. It works differently, but it was fun seeing the name up here.Let's try to get a brain storm going on what we can add for offense.
A per day use item like bombs or a bonus?
Oh come on, that's almost as cruel as Jason was with the Arcanist! Were any of us close?