As written, their levels don't count as fighter levels (I think?). That said, I think they should. And I agree, there are a number of ways to overcome the issue of damage reduction that don't invoke supernaturally aligning your unarmed strikes. (Greater) penetrating strike, amulet of mighty fists, magic knuckles. Even an Ex ability that worked similar to (and stacked with) penetrating strike would do the job.And since they now count as fighters they can just pick up penetrating strike.* I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.Not if they're using close weapons, that's the beauty of it. They can use magic/special material brass knuckles, cesti, rope gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, etc... All the things that RAW, no monk would ever touch. And that just scream "Brawler!"
"The brawler inflicts their brawling damage instead of the normal weapon damage when using any close weapon." Give 'em proficiency in those and improvised weapons and simple weapons. Done.
Check out the update on the first post.
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* I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.
Not even with an ability like I (and at least one other person) has suggested? Half progression on the Unarmed Strike (giving the Monk an edge in damage dice, as a bonus at least), but it applies to all "Unarmed Weapons" (Cestus, Brass Knuckles, and so on)?
I think that fits better thematically and allows for a more viable "weapon punching" class.
* I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.Not even with an ability like I (and at least one other person) has suggested? Half progression on the Unarmed Strike (giving the Monk an edge in damage dice, as a bonus at least), but it applies to all "Unarmed Weapons" (Cestus, Brass Knuckles, and so on)?
I think that fits better thematically and allows for a more viable "weapon punching" class.
Rynjin don't hate me for doing this so much but... THIS! So much this.
It's got my vote.
3 Shouldn't the Brawler focus more on style feats considering the line that states that the Brawler focuses on "perfecting many styles of brutal unarmed combat."The brawler already gets 6 bonus combat feats, and has the martial maneuvers ability to temporarily pick up other combat-oriented feats; between those two abilities, a brawler should be able to use at least one style all the time, switching in and out other styles as needed.
I'm noticing a big problem with the Brawler as I'm trying to build it with just that in mind. The perquisites for Style Feats are actually rather varied making the ones you can choose from very limited considering many of them require Ranks in certain skills such as dance, a wisdom score of 15, or stunning fist which requires a wisdom of 13. The Brawler is still gonna have specialize in only one or two styles at most unless he wants to deal with being a MADening class.
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I'm noticing a big problem with the Brawler as I'm trying to build it with just that in mind. The perquisites for Style Feats are actually rather varied making the ones you can choose from very limited considering many of them require Ranks in certain skills such as dance, a wisdom score of 15, or stunning fist which requires a wisdom of 13. The Brawler is still gonna have specialize in only one or two styles at most unless he wants to deal with being a MADening class.
You may have missed Seans recent update.
Update:
* We've made an official update to the sticky post at the top of this thread: brawler levels count as fighter and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Likewise, a brawler counts as a monk for the purpose of Stunning Fist (which calculates your uses/day differently if you're a monk).
The ability to count as Monk X should alleviate a lot of those problems as Monks can bypass most of the style requirements based on level (Crane, Djinni, Efreeti, Marid, Shaitan, Snapping Turtle & Tiger), which Brawlers can now take advantage of.
Shouldn't this apply to ALL these classes? That Level X (hybrid) counts as level X in both of the classes it comes from?
Hm.. my brawler still has to wait until level 3 for Dragon Style, though. Q.Q
Ah well! Its completely worth it :3
Why? Well Lore Warden gets a bonus to CMB on ALL maneuvers, it's a bigger bonus, and it's in ADDITION to their weapon training. Not to mention they can make a knowledge check for another +2 on top of that.That actually suggests to me that the lore warden is too good; its maneuver master ability gives it +2 on ALL combat maneuver checks and CMD, which is the equivalent of the Improved Bull Rush, Dirty Trick, Disarm, Dragon, Reposition, Overrun, Steal, Sunder, and Trip... just for the cost of armor training 1. (Okay, slightly less than each of those feats because it doesn't make them AOO-free, but still...)
I can agree with this. If the lore warden got their bonus to only one type of maneuver would it still balance out with allowing them weapon training and the knowledge ability? (Does Paizo have plans to nerf lore warden?) If so, then the brawler should probably get it too.
I think the brawler (and monks) needs weapon training to help land their hits and solidify damage (especially since with UA, damage will be harder to come by). But, I know you know I know you want actual play test data on that. I'm going to try to prove myself wrong and hope for the best.
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I envision the Brawler as a Luchador, wearing spandex and a mask, wrestling the biggest, baddest enemies he can into submission.
....What?
I envision the Brawler as a Luchador, wearing spandex and a mask, wrestling the biggest, baddest enemies he can into submission.
....What?
You just reminded me of the story I read online of a Half-Orc monk Luchador who suplexed a flying dragon.
You just reminded me of the story I read online of a Half-Orc monk Luchador who suplexed a flying dragon.
If I remember right the only thing making that awesome and not humiliating was the fact that the GM made the falling damage kill the dragon and inexplicably not the Monk with less HP.
So, counts as fighter and as monk .....
Wowza.
Starting to really love this.
You just reminded me of the story I read online of a Half-Orc monk Luchador who suplexed a flying dragon.I envision the Brawler as a Luchador, wearing spandex and a mask, wrestling the biggest, baddest enemies he can into submission.
....What?
Ah I remember that story too! ...cant' remember where I read it, but yeah. XD
I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.There is another way. Given that magical enhancement already overcomes these DR issues, and AoMF is now clarified as working the same way, I'm not sure it is as much an issue anymore.
But it isn't really a big sweat off my back either way as I think you can fluff the overcoming DR as training rather than mystical.
Giving up the neck slot for an AoMF vs an amulet of natural armor is a very big decision on a brawler. The monk has work-arounds that make it viable to take the AoMF (qinggong barkskin), but the brawler is not going to wow anybody with her immense AC.
Just a quick note before I'm off to bed: I took the Brawler out for a spin tonight in my Skull & Shackles campaign. A one on one bare knuckle boxing match with the party's half-orc Barbarian. Both seventh level. It was a lot of fun.
Despite the fact that Harskul (the Barbarian) can output a lot of damage while enraged, even while unarmed, the Brawler fought him to a draw. And then knocked him out with a low-blow :) In the melee that followed, I came across my only real complaint with the Brawler (up to level 7 anyway): my vision of brawling has the class using whatever is at hand to hit their opponent. A chair, tankard, halfling...
As such, I would scrap the monk weapon proficiencies in favour of Improvised Weapon proficiencies and the Throw Anything feat. I realize that Catch Off-guard and Throw Anything can be taken as feats or Bonus Feats, but am of the opinion that the class would be better served in brawling by getting them for free at first level.
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Here's a Brawler build I made! It's meant to be a comparison to a character of mine I loved who was a Fighter/Monk. I don't know if she's particularly "optimised", but she sure looks fun. :)
I get that some people don't like a "magical" ability like brawler strike being part of this class, but we need to make unarmed brawlers viable at overcoming DR (just as we do for monks), so it has to stay.There is another way. Given that magical enhancement already overcomes these DR issues, and AoMF is now clarified as working the same way, I'm not sure it is as much an issue anymore.
But it isn't really a big sweat off my back either way as I think you can fluff the overcoming DR as training rather than mystical.
Giving up the neck slot for an AoMF vs an amulet of natural armor is a very big decision on a brawler. The monk has work-arounds that make it viable to take the AoMF (qinggong barkskin), but the brawler is not going to wow anybody with her immense AC.
Ah but the Brawler has virtually no reason to not pick up shields early and use Martial Maneuvers to use it. Or get the feat and not worry about the dodge bonus. A heavy steel shield gives you more AC than the feature does before 9th level. An Enchanted one beats it entirely with just a +2 enhancement. Then you can do all sorts of neat Shield stuff with it using Martial Maneuvers.
OH MY GOSH YOU CAN GET RAY SHIELD AS A BRAWLER. In fact by 10th level you can grab Disruptive feat and grab the entire anti magey stuff and Ray Shield with Martial Maneuvers. There is so much potential for a Shield using Brawler!
I believe you can flurry still with a foot and a fist =)
Maneuvers seem to be a big opportunity for the Brawler. However, to access them with their ability, they need 13 Int and Combat Expertise for many of them. Dirty Tricks seem perfect for this character but would be challenging to use.
Maybe use the Ranger notion with style feats without prereqs, in order to focus the brawler?
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Anyone see how the Brawler is at hitting? It should be less MAD than a monk and has full BAB when you make a standard attack but it's lacking in abilities to increase it's attack bonus and will most likely be locked in to a TWF style.
I love this class as is and wish the monk had the same ability to have the benefit of combat feats it wants for a minute.
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Coridan's thoughts on the Brawler:
I really like this class. Mechanically and flavorwise it needs just a little tweaking, but it is headed the right way. I like close weapons group vs monk weapons. I would like to see the class make use of improvised weapons as well.
I am a little confused about brawler flurry calling out two handed weapons. Can he flurry with a glaive? Doesn't sound broken, but does sound unBrawlerlike.
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He can only flurry when unarmed or with monk weapons.
Guys, is it me or does the brawler perform best with a staff? He can two-hand it and attack with one end. This gives him 1.5 x his Strength bonus whenever he's not flurrying and a 3rd point of power attack damage every 4 levels even when he is. Then he can enchant it.
Overall that means he deals more damage on regular attacks, keeps pace with flurry, gets his weapon enchantments at half the price and doesn't have to fill his neck slot.
As for penetrating damage reduction, why not give him an extraordinary ability that lets his unarmed attacks ignore increasing amounts of DR as he levels? That would give him a little more incentive to use them without requiring him to use them all the time and wouldn't be magical.
I'm noticing a big problem with the Brawler as I'm trying to build it with just that in mind. The perquisites for Style Feats are actually rather varied making the ones you can choose from very limited considering many of them require Ranks in certain skills such as dance, a wisdom score of 15, or stunning fist which requires a wisdom of 13. The Brawler is still gonna have specialize in only one or two styles at most unless he wants to deal with being a MADening class.You may have missed Seans recent update.
The ability to count as Monk X should alleviate a lot of those problems as Monks can bypass most of the style requirements based on level (Crane, Djinni, Efreeti, Marid, Shaitan, Snapping Turtle & Tiger), which Brawlers can now take advantage of.
Update:
* We've made an official update to the sticky post at the top of this thread: brawler levels count as fighter and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Likewise, a brawler counts as a monk for the purpose of Stunning Fist (which calculates your uses/day differently if you're a monk).
I was under the impression that the monk level only replaced the BAB requirement... If this is the case then... Time to go tweak some stuff.
He can only flurry when unarmed or with monk weapons.
Guys, is it me or does the brawler perform best with a staff? He can two-hand it and attack with one end. This gives him 1.5 x his Strength bonus whenever he's not flurrying and a 3rd point of power attack damage every 4 levels even when he is. Then he can enchant it.
Overall that means he deals more damage on regular attacks, keeps pace with flurry, gets his weapon enchantments at half the price and doesn't have to fill his neck slot.
As for penetrating damage reduction, why not give him an extraordinary ability that lets his unarmed attacks ignore increasing amounts of DR as he levels? That would give him a little more incentive to use them without requiring him to use them all the time and wouldn't be magical.
Hm.. he actually could do that with any non-light, One Handed Monk weapon, not just a quarterstaff - a few other weapons come to mind.
Or he could grab Dragon Style and have his fists count as two-handed most of the time :D
Do Brawlers count as fighters for feat requirements like can they take weapon specialization?
Do Brawlers count as fighters for feat requirements like can they take weapon specialization?
Yes.
He can only flurry when unarmed or with monk weapons.
Guys, is it me or does the brawler perform best with a staff? He can two-hand it and attack with one end. This gives him 1.5 x his Strength bonus whenever he's not flurrying and a 3rd point of power attack damage every 4 levels even when he is. Then he can enchant it.
Overall that means he deals more damage on regular attacks, keeps pace with flurry, gets his weapon enchantments at half the price and doesn't have to fill his neck slot.
As for penetrating damage reduction, why not give him an extraordinary ability that lets his unarmed attacks ignore increasing amounts of DR as he levels? That would give him a little more incentive to use them without requiring him to use them all the time and wouldn't be magical.
Hm.. he actually could do that with any non-light, One Handed Monk weapon, not just a quarterstaff - a few other weapons come to mind.
Or he could grab Dragon Style and have his fists count as two-handed most of the time :D
Problem is Dragon Ferocity requires stunning fist, which in turn requires a Wisdom of 13. I normally just Dip monk to get it but that's out of the question now.
Problem is Dragon Ferocity requires stunning fist, which in turn requires a Wisdom of 13. I normally just Dip monk to get it but that's out of the question now.He can only flurry when unarmed or with monk weapons.
Guys, is it me or does the brawler perform best with a staff? He can two-hand it and attack with one end. This gives him 1.5 x his Strength bonus whenever he's not flurrying and a 3rd point of power attack damage every 4 levels even when he is. Then he can enchant it.
Overall that means he deals more damage on regular attacks, keeps pace with flurry, gets his weapon enchantments at half the price and doesn't have to fill his neck slot.
As for penetrating damage reduction, why not give him an extraordinary ability that lets his unarmed attacks ignore increasing amounts of DR as he levels? That would give him a little more incentive to use them without requiring him to use them all the time and wouldn't be magical.
Hm.. he actually could do that with any non-light, One Handed Monk weapon, not just a quarterstaff - a few other weapons come to mind.
Or he could grab Dragon Style and have his fists count as two-handed most of the time :D
Hmm.... true.. though the initial Dragon Style is nice, at least. Honestly, with this build, I'd skip out on 13 int for 13 wis just to eventually get this - as that particular type of Brawler would be more interested in attacks rather than maneuvers. With my current Brawler, he does 1d6+9 damage at level 1 with power attack - at least on his first attack per round. Certainly not quite as hard hitting as a guy with a greatsword or greataxe, but that minimum of 10 damage hurts :P
Yeah i'll probably opt for the wisdom over the intelligence with mine as well.
Quarterstaff was the only non-light monk weapon with which he's proficient that I could think of. Obviously he could take a feat to get a temple sword or something, but that costs him, as does dragon style. Since he's very likely to have power attack anyway the staff approach is basically free.
I'm not sure if he benefits more from investing in dragon style, taking exotic weapon proficiency to get a better monk weapon or just sticking with the staff and spending his feats elsewhere. I doubt there'll be much in it in the end, but hopefully playtesting will tell.
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So I'm personally a little confused about some of the text in Martial Maneuvers. I understand the per day limit, and how to activate it, and taking multiple feats at 6th and 10th level, and the 1 minute duration, etc...
What confuses me is this:
"If this ability is triggered before the duration expires,
the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a
new one in its place."
So, my example is this for simplicity sake. I'm a level 1 brawler, and I use my 1 daily use of Martial Maneuvers to temporarily take the Improved Trip feat (assume I already have Combat Expertise). I can now use a trip action at any time in the next 10 rounds at the +2 bonus the feat gives.
If I use a trip action on my second round, thus "triggering the ability before the duration expires" the text would suggest that I can no longer use improved trip for the remaining 8 rounds, and that I must replace it with another feat... Is this correct? Can you replace it for the remaining 8 rounds with the same feat? or do you need to swap back and forth? So Improved Trip, make a trip attack, take dodge for 1 round, switch back to improved trip on round 4, etc...
I'm also going off the assumption that my use of Martial Maneuvers does not expire after using improved trip on that 2nd round, and that I can continue to have it active for the remaining 8 rounds.
Hopefully someone can help me clear this up. Thanks!
"This ability" means Martial Maneuvers, not the feat it grants. It's just saying you can't use Martial Maneuvers twice in succession to have two temporary feats at once.
When it says triggering the ability it's referring to martial maneuvers.
So I'm personally a little confused about some of the text in Martial Maneuvers. I understand the per day limit, and how to activate it, and taking multiple feats at 6th and 10th level, and the 1 minute duration, etc...
What confuses me is this:
"If this ability is triggered before the duration expires,
the brawler loses the previous combat feat and gains a
new one in its place."So, my example is this for simplicity sake. I'm a level 1 brawler, and I use my 1 daily use of Martial Maneuvers to temporarily take the Improved Trip feat (assume I already have Combat Expertise). I can now use a trip action at any time in the next 10 rounds at the +2 bonus the feat gives.
If I use a trip action on my second round, thus "triggering the ability before the duration expires" the text would suggest that I can no longer use improved trip for the remaining 8 rounds, and that I must replace it with another feat... Is this correct? Can you replace it for the remaining 8 rounds with the same feat? or do you need to swap back and forth? So Improved Trip, make a trip attack, take dodge for 1 round, switch back to improved trip on round 4, etc...
I'm also going off the assumption that my use of Martial Maneuvers does not expire after using improved trip on that 2nd round, and that I can continue to have it active for the remaining 8 rounds.
Hopefully someone can help me clear this up. Thanks!
I took it as suggesting if you pick up a new feat (say improved grapple) you lose the benefits of improved trip (so as to prevent you from having multiple feats before your class level allows it.
Edit: ninja'd
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So it would mean that at level 4, I can't use Martial Maneuvers to take Improved trip 1 round, and then the next round take Greater Trip because this would violate the 2 feat improvement at level 6?
Thanks for the clarification!
*edit: Or have Improved Trip and Improved Grapple at the same time as mentioned above. =D
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I have to say that after reading all 288 posts, I am most decidedly in the same camp as many ...
- I think there should be close weapons and improvised weapons, though I wouldn't mind if the oriental ones stayed. What if some one wants a straight martial artist and not a mystical monk?
- Also, I am VERY much in favor of a class ability, feat, trait or whatever that would allow the Brawler to use their unarmed damage with close weapons or some such. In my personal opinion, a fist weapon *should* use a character's unarmed damage, no matter what their class.
Other than that (and beyond what's already been fixed), I'm enormously thrilled with the class. I have a GM credit baby that's been waiting for this. It's marvelous!
BTW, before I post any other replies in this thread, a big THANK YOU to people who've done some brawler character-building and playtesting. Woo! :)
Brawler needs:
Some way to sidestep the 13int and combat expertise requirement for using maneuvers
Short of that... working well.
So. I think the designers of this class should look at the Brawler, Unarmed, and Cad fighter archetypes. They(and many fighter archetypes.) Have more and better class abilities than the vanilla fighter. Also Weapon training with unarmed strikes already help with all combat maneuvers and attack and damage. I think they wanted to take away too many of the fighters abilities to give this class new abilities when he didn't have much to give up.
Playtest Feedback
last night i ran a short scenario for 3 level 8 characters (on 20 point buy)- a fighter, a monk, and a brawler. we intentionally chose those classes to get a side by side look at how the classes compared against the same enemies. the players made their own characters so i don't have full builds but here are the highlights:
Result
i ran them through about half a dozen encounters (over 3 in-game days) ranging from APL -2 to APL +3 and a couple of out of combat scenarios. not surprisingly the monk faired the best out of combat, followed by the brawler (who was only slightly better off than the fighter because despite the extra skill points his stat array left him ill suited for those scenarios).
in combat- the monk was difficult to hit, even for the APL +1-2... he took advantage of combat reflexes and crane riposte by often only single attacking and repositioning (counting on AoOs to make up the damage output), against the APL -2 he stood and flurried and wasn't too far behind the fighter in dpr, closer to APL his moving system worked pretty well, against APL +2 he was having a little trouble keeping up because of his lower attack bonus. the fighter had the most damage in first rounds (when he alone benefited from vital strike), but the brawler actually out DPRed him a lot of the time- he got full Str and 1:2 PA on all his flurry attacks, plus wpn spec so his damage per hit wasn't as far behind the 2hander as a 2WF normally would be, and with greater weapon focus the only difference in their bonus to hit was the -2 from flurry (and maybe 1 point of Str); against the APL +2 the -2 from flurry did lead to some more misses and the fighter probably stayed ahead on DPR there. the brawler actually would have went down that fight but he used martial maneuvers for toughness. that fight was the end of the session but it led to a whole discussion about what happens when toughness wears off (especially relevant in that party with no healing).
all in all the class functioned pretty well. i'm a little bit concerned that it was out DPRing a 2hand fighter, though its survivability was a bit lower. the only real complaint was exactly what some have predicted- the "wait one minute, i know there's a feat that does X, i just need to find it so i can use martial maneuvers" (and one "what do you mean that doesn't qualify?!?")
Playtest Feedback
last night i ran a short scenario for 3 level 8 characters (on 20 point buy)- a fighter, a monk, and a brawler. we intentionally chose those classes to get a side by side look at how the classes compared against the same enemies. the players made their own characters so i don't have full builds but here are the highlights:
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **Result
i ran them through about half a dozen encounters (over 3 in-game days) ranging from APL -2 to APL +3 and a couple of out of combat scenarios. not surprisingly the monk faired the best out of combat, followed by the brawler (who was only slightly better off than the fighter because despite the extra skill points his stat array left him ill suited for those scenarios).in combat- the monk was difficult to hit, even for the APL +1-2... he took advantage of combat reflexes and crane riposte by often only single attacking and repositioning (counting on AoOs to make up the damage output), against the APL -2 he stood and flurried and wasn't too far behind the fighter in dpr, closer to APL his moving system worked pretty well, against...
This weekend I'm gonna run a Slayer, a Bloodrager, and a Brawler in a level 9 game. I'm gonna run them all unarmed and the fate of the Brawler is looking grim.
In any case, it would be nice to see full builds of these characters if you could scrounge them up.
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Problem is Dragon Ferocity requires stunning fist, which in turn requires a Wisdom of 13. I normally just Dip monk to get it but that's out of the question now.
Damn, how did I miss that?
I move "Needs Fuse Styles and/or Style Feats as Bonus Feats" from the SHOULD category to the NEEDS category, because Dragon Ferocity is the ONE thing that makes unarmed strikes even competitive in damage, and not being able to get it before 11th level is brutal.
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I had perhaps an obvious question, but I did not see it in the thread so far.
As written, the Monk (when using Flurry of Blows) can flurry a weapon such as a Temple Sword or Sansetsukon, taking a -2 penalty on all attack rolls to gain a few extra attacks.
However, the Brawler seems a little different. Unlike a Monk, the Brawler seems to actually be using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when flurrying, with the exception that the same weapon can be used for all of the attacks.
On the surface, this seems to be a very similar ability. However, as written, this seems to imply that a Brawler can only flurry effectively with light weapons, due to the specific use of the TWF feat rather than overriding it and calling out the exact attack penalty:
1) Both a Monk and a Brawler can flurry with unarmed strikes (a light weapon). They seem to have a similar attack bonus when doing so (Monk level -2 vs. Brawler BAB -2).
2) Both a Monk and a Brawler can flurry with a Temple Sword. However, the Brawler seems to have a reduced attack bonus for this weapon (Monk level -2 vs. Brawler BAB -4). This is because in this case, the "off-hand weapon" for TWF (the Temple Sword) is not a light weapon.
3) A Monk can flurry with a Sansetsukon (with attack bonus = Monk level -2). However, a Brawler cannot flurry with a Sansetsukon, as it is a two-handed weapon and cannot be used with TWF.
Are these differences intentional?
It really should just have proficiency with the close weapon group. It has no business having the shuriken at all (close combat group has wushu dart for ranged attack potential anyway)
Make Brawler's flurry an option not baked in or just remove it full stop, if people want to two weapon fight they'll take TWF and double slice.
Give more support for Style Feats.
The two knowledge skills are wonky, though (History) because it includes wars makes more sense than Dungeoneering. Local would be a far better fit.
Brawler Strike isn't thematic if they're getting rid of the 'mysticism' aspect. Instead an option to apply half your unarmed strike damage through weapons of the close combat group will allow them to overcome DR.
Clarity on whether or not they count as monks/fighters for the purposes of feats would be great. Can they get weapon specialisation?
Adding 1.5 instead strength mod to damage as if they were wielding a two-handed weapon if they are using a weapon from the closed weapons group is not a bad idea. However for power attack they could still count as light or one handed weapons.
They are on the combat feat feat list.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats
Also
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-featsEach is listed with the type being both Combat and Style.
The d20pfsrd.com is not an offical source. Do you have similar wording from the prd? I checked the prd and I could not find it.
The d20pfsrd.com is not an offical source. Do you have similar wording from the prd? I checked the prd and I could not find it.They are on the combat feat feat list.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats
Also
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/style-featsEach is listed with the type being both Combat and Style.
If you look in the ultimate combat book it says "Combat" right next the the feat names in the descriptions section.