Bloodrager Discussion

[Sevus]

PhelanArcetus wrote:

...Speaking of Arcane, I find the True Arcane Bloodrage selection of buff spells odd. Beast Shape IV and Form of the Dragon I are just fine polymorph spells, though definitely not what I would think of in the context of the rest of the bloodline, which, broadly speaking, is about enhancement, not transformation. It seems like a decent chunk of the benefits of Transformation are things the Bloodrager will already have by level 16. Plus it seems that all three choices in True Arcane Bloodrage take away spellcasting, though I presume you can choose to not apply any of the...

(Bold emphasis mine)

From the description of the Polymorph Subschool on d20pfsrd:

While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.

(Bold emphasis mine again)

Yes, beast shape IV and transformation will take away your spellcasting, but form of the dragon I does not.

[Kraedwulf]

Bloodrager is by far my favorite new class from Advanced Class guide. Makes me think of Kratos from God of War or Thor from Marvel. Warriors first and foremost but with a few magical tricks up their sleeves... or armored bracers as the case may be.

It's always a good thing when Full BAB-classes get some cool stuff. I just don't think you can make them too powerful, as long as you don't give them more spell levels than 4. So, I don't think Bloodragers need to be gimped at all. Most of the basic stuff is well figured out but here's a few things that should be tweaked:

- Class abilities based on Cha. None of that Con-MADness. Sorcerers are known for their Charisma.
- Eschew Materials for free at 4th level. Trivial but flavorful. Remember, sorcerers. This is important.
- Perhaps ditch (Improved) Uncanny Dodge and Damage reduction and add new mechanics. Something like Magus Spell Combat or Spell Strike, but not those. Something to help them cast at melee.

As for Bloodrager vs. Barbarian, I think they are pretty equal but different. Bloodragers fly, get some (limited) Bloodline-Feats and cast some spells but normal Barbarians will hit harder with their Rage Powers.

Bloodrage Powers can be more powerful than Rage Powers but Rage Powers are more powerful than (Bloodline) Feats so this evens out. And many Barbarians only pick Extra Rage Powers as their Feats after level 1. Also, Rage Powers are more flexible. Once you pick a Bloodline, you can't choose what powers you get. So, a Barbarian can mix and match Rage Powers and he will have 2-3 times more of them than Bloodrager has Bloodrage Powers.

Blood. Rage.

[Caïen]

It is still bothering me that most of their capacities are (Su) while the sorcerer bloodlines capacities are not only (Su).

Again, you are a melee, you need Constitution. Maybe the class could have been made to be a melee spellcaster NOT using weapons. Something like invocations in 3.5 could have been nice. I think that maybe each Bloodline could give a different at-will ability that they could use as their bread and butter, much like the Warlokc's Eldritch Blast in 3.5, but bloodline related. I could see a kind of escalation mechanic for it when they enter in a bloodrage, but being in such a reckless state would have negative aspects other than a -2 to AC. In my opinion, the Bloodrager should have been less of a weapon-user, but more of a melee spellcaster that can take hits and have the rage mechanic that makes the barbarian fun to play, while experiencing powers beyong its own control.

[Petty Alchemy]

So where should we put up Bloodrager builds?

I'm daydreaming up a Kitsune Bloodrager (strength penalty stings, but rage helps mitigate). Pick up Vulpine Pounce and you don't even miss Beast Totem!

The problem I saw as I sat down to build this is that Abyssal, Arcane, and Aberrant are just so much better than other bloodlines. A few of them like Fey and Undead have abilities that specifically trigger only on charges (so they'd be perfect for a pouncer), but they don't pack nearly the same pow that the big three bloodlines do.

[Lord_Malkov]

Yeah... Arcane is hard to pass up... that is the jelly for me.

I am a barbarian, that can cast Fly, and gets free Displacement while I rage.

Then I can use Monstrous Physique to turn into a Yeti!
A YETI!!!!

I dunno, not a lot of great options for monstrous physique. Four armed gargoyle is pretty good... and I think Dire Corby gets leap/pounce.

[AndIMustMask]

theres the age-old magus favorite in the caliklang (or however it's spelled) as well.

[deuxhero]

Too bad there is no way for players to lose their Con score, would reduce the MAD a lot.

[AndIMustMask]

become an undead or construct?

[Petty Alchemy]

You know, I was thinking of the people saying that Bloodragers should have less barbarian stuff like uncanny dodge, and I didn't really agree.

But I'd give it up for a strong will save progression.

[Lord_Malkov]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

You know, I was thinking of the people saying that Bloodragers should have less barbarian stuff like uncanny dodge, and I didn't really agree.

But I'd give it up for a strong will save progression.

I'd give it up for access to the Extra Rage Power feat =)

Buuuuut that would be super duper overpowered.

Frankly, I don't care about having more sorcerer stuff... I would probably only cast 1 spell per combat if that.

The rest would be used for simple utility outside of combat.
My spell DCs would be terrible anyway.

[Neo2151]

Calybos1 wrote:

I'm just lost on this one. Yes, it looks very powerful and combat-effective, if you like that sort of thing.

But... what IS a Bloodrager? What's the underlying concept? How do you roleplay a guy who's a raving, howling, murderous swirl of death in combat...

...who occasionally stops to toss off a few spells?

Seriously. Not getting it. The barbarian is the ultimate in pure physical focus--and he's casting spells in the middle of a fight? What's up with that?

Ya gotta think of it more like this. ;)

Aw crap, I just broke it didn't I? xD

[AndIMustMask]

seriously terrible. 4th level spells at max, with late entry and slow progression--theres a reason there arent many caster paladins running about. for someone whos supposed to be gishy they sure got shot in the foot by it, particularly with no real way to cast in combat while youre busy wading in and stabbing things.

[Scorpioni]

Here's what I would do to change the bloodrager: focus him a bit more on spellcasting by making him the (sort of) spontaneous casting version of the magus. The class should represent raw and untamed magical power, even more than a sorcerer. A true ragemage:

- Replace max 4th lvl spellcasting with max 6th level spellcasting of magus

- Bloodrage gives a bonus to charisma instead of con. In addition a bloodrage also grants a caster level increase (let's say half of the str bonus)

- Lower full BAB to magus BAB

- Add good will save to mitigate MAD

- Grant some sort of ability that lets the bloodrager cast while making melee attacks. For example: cast swift action spell when confirming a critical OR use rage rounds to apply metamagic feats OR just give spellstrike.

[Rynjin]

Scorpioni wrote:

- Lower full BAB to magus BAB

I'd be seriously mad.

[Scorpioni]

How so? Most important stats would be strength and charisma.

Con and Dex can be lower but not dumped: con mainly increases rage rounds (unless we also base those on charisma).

Int and wisdom can be very low because of good Will save and decent skill points

[Rynjin]

Because I (and other people) have wanted a full BaB 4 level arcane caster for a while.

Turning it into YET ANOTHER 6 level 3/4 BaB class would be very disappointing.

[Scavion]

Scorpioni wrote:

Here's what I would do to change the bloodrager: focus him a bit more on spellcasting by making him the (sort of) spontaneous casting version of the magus. The class should represent raw and untamed magical power, even more than a sorcerer. A true ragemage:

- Replace max 4th lvl spellcasting with max 6th level spellcasting of magus

- Bloodrage gives a bonus to charisma instead of con. In addition a bloodrage also grants a caster level increase (let's say half of the str bonus)

- Lower full BAB to magus BAB

- Add good will save to mitigate MAD

- Grant some sort of ability that lets the bloodrager cast while making melee attacks. For example: cast swift action spell when confirming a critical OR use rage rounds to apply metamagic feats OR just give spellstrike.

The Bloodrager is more akin to a ranger in his casting. Trying to shoehorn him into functioning exactly like the Magus is kinda lame tbh. I know. He isn't exactly spell combating or spellstriking but hes still casting a spell as part of his attacks your way which in the end is just like the Magus.

Hes not a ragemage. Hes a Barbarian who gets crazy powers when he flies into a rage. He also gets some spellcasting hes not entirely good at using, he didn't work for this magic, he just got it. This is represented by getting a grand total of 4 spells at 7th level with a 14 Charisma.

He doesn't even need a real great Strength score. The Bloodrager is fine with a 12 or 14. His Bloodrage lets him compensate and he can fluff his other stats. A good array for a Bloodrager would be something like this. I love the way hes written as is. The only thing that could use some development are his Bloodlines as many of them are rather lackluster.

20 PB
Str-16
Dex-12
Con-15(+2 Human Racial included)
Int-8
Wis-12
Cha-14

Bam. Great stats. 8 Int is countered by the extra skill point humans get.

[Scorpioni]

I see what you guys are getting at.

The spellcasting does however seems like an afterthought, and I'm not sure how to improve this beyond the boring "I'll buff before combat I guess".

How does this sound?

- Replace 4th lvl casting and fast movement/uncanny dodge/damage reduction (don't know if all 3 need to go for this change) with 6th level spellcasting.
- Keep full BAB
- Good will save
- Rage change as my previous suggestion

Is this also lame? Is it too powerful? I don't think there is a precedent for full BAB with 6th level casting. Maybe this could be tested?

[Stome]

I really think many people don't get this class at all. All this "the casting is not blended with the melee enough" and "I don't find myself using the spells all the time."

.....duh. Its a 4 spell lvl full BaB class. If you want something that blends spell casting more that is what the Magus is for.

The point is just like the other 4 spell level full BaB classes. Mostly melee with the flexibility and options to do something in situations that melee is a poor choice or flat out imposable.

Ranger and Paladin don't "blend casting seamlessly with melee." and all the other such complaints. I don't see why any expected this to be different or even want it to be.

Don't give me "the magus spell list is not good for that.". That's a load. If you think that then you have never really looked at the spell list.

[Neo2151]

The Paladin and Ranger are Divine casters.

Arcane spell-casting is the offensive style of casting. So naturally, someone who possesses arcane spell-casting will want ways to use it offensively.

It's really as simple as that.

I still hold that giving the class Spellstrike would fill that "gap" perfectly. Spell Combat remains a Magus thing, but both classes are designed to cast some arcane spells and hit things with a weapon, so both classes should be able to mix the two.

[Stome]

Neo2151 wrote:

The Paladin and Ranger are Divine casters.

Arcane spell-casting is the offensive style of casting. So naturally, someone who possesses arcane spell-casting will want ways to use it offensively.

It's really as simple as that.

I still hold that giving the class Spellstrike would fill that "gap" perfectly. Spell Combat remains a Magus thing, but both classes are designed to cast some arcane spells and hit things with a weapon, so both classes should be able to mix the two.

Hahaha why because you say so? I count a whole heck of a lot of defensive and utility spells on the Magus spell list.

Sorry to break this to you but the artificial boundaries you place on a type of magic in your head mean nothing in reality.

The bard has been Arcane for a very long time and yet has very few offensive spells.

[redliska]

Bloodrager looks great. It fills the full BAB 4th level arcane spell class slot that has been empty so far. It has some cool flavour and mechanics. I like how balanced the class looks but I would like to try it out to see if it steps on a barbarians toes to hard. As others have pointed out some bloodlines are massively better than others, The lack lustre ones could use some beefing up. Undead is nice, one of the people I game with was complaining about the lack of ways to inflict the frightened or panicked conditions.

[Lirya]

Sorry for the insane rambling to come.

First of all, the bloodrager must stay as a full BAB 4th level casting arcane class as nothing has filled that niche yet, there is a current 6th level casting bloat making that boring. Designing a 4th level caster is new for paizo and thus gives room for whacky new solutions.

I think of the bloodrager as the arcane paladin. Where the warrior blessed by the divine is a paragon of all that is holy, good, and orderly. The warrior poisoned with arcane might manifest one out of a multitude of powers, each producing a more unique and disturbing side effect that the last.

A bloodrager is the young warrior who just wanted to become the new AM SMASHY MC'SMASH. He got touched by pure arcane energy and turned into and eldritch horror, now used in stories at a wizard collages to scare new apprentices into doing extra chores. They say AM SMASHY MC'SMASH bashed the brain of one? two? no, three balors at the same time. And with the same branch at that. The balors were said to be 100 feet apart as well, a true horrors those AMs. Ofcourse, no one knows for sure, as all his party members died to the Death Throes.

A bloodrager is the fellow who was destined to become the greatest arcane spellcaster of our age. He ignored it and left to become a fighter, knowing full well that fighters are an uncountable number of power tiers below arcane spellcasters. But you know destiny, it cursed the fellow into learning a martial art so flashy and mystical, that
anyone who saw him would mistake him for an arcane spellcaster of some sort. I mean, what kind of fighter turns into a Spider Climbing, Displacing, freaking DRAGON mid-charge.

The one thing that could potentially kill this class for me is if the weird over the top awesome bloodline powers got nerfed due to them not being perceived as balanced with rage powers. Rage Powers have Spell Sunder, the power that made AM BARBARIAN famous, the power that can cause migty castys to tremble in their pointy tinfoil hats.

A weird feature I noticed in my play test in the arcane bloodline is that while most bloodline powers are (Su), you have Arcane Bloodrage (Sp), Greater Arcane Bloodrage (Ex), and True Arcane Bloodrage (Ex).

As for changes, I agree with those before me who have claimed that the arcane fourth of this class really wants its good will save, and that the Fast Movement, (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, and DR feel like a bit like leftovers from before the class lost its d12 and rage powers.

Making (almost)all the crazy awesome bloodline powers always active while raging and cannot be activated while not raging is brilliant. As it should help reduce the book keeping of keeping track of a gazillion abilities.

I am really disappointed with the Draconic bloodline. It isn't weak, as it is mostly the same as the sorc bloodline. But 2 Claws + a secondary tail is in my opinion a horrible natural attack sequence for a pure melee. And treating it as an off-hand weapon gives me funny images of a (4e)dragonborn dual wielding a greatsword and his tail.
I think a better direction for this bloodline would be to give a bite instead of the extra energy damage at 12th level. And then adding the two wing attacks at 20th level as a capstone giving players an legitimate option if they want to bring a true dragon as their PC (and all fanboys will rejoyce), well unless they think a medium/large sized dragon actually has more than 4th level arcane spells (they usually don't). Some may claim that 5 natural attacks is too much, but the Eidolons are allowed to get 7 and they are just a class feature of the class that has the best 6th level spellcasting in the game. (That evil Synth in my group is going to learn haste at an earlier level than my wizzy is allowed to).

Many weird thoughts appear while high on dehydration + sugar.

Uh, so I think the bloodrager has the potential to turn into something great with a little refinement and I hope the weaker bloodlies will be brought up to the same level of awesome as the stronger ones.

Lirya

[Coridan]

Coridan's thoughts on Bloodrager:

I love this class conceptually, but I think it needs more Sorc, less Barb. I would like to see it dropped to 3/4 BAB d8HD. It should get more a focus on the spellcasting, less on melee. Let it cast spells in rage from the getgo, give it full magus spell progression and rework the rage.

Rather than have the rage identical to a Barbarian's, hiw about a rage that boosts DCs, spell penetration and damage for spells? A few rage abilities could be blasting pure arcane power as line, burst or cone. Thematically like an arcane Wilder, or the Incredible spellcasting Hulk. Get him angry and he explodes all over you. Give an arcane failure chance while not raging to show how he needs to go all or nothing.

Right now it steps too much on both Barbarian and Magus, but there is a good niche for a Sorc/Barbarian blend if you just adjust the focus.

[Dragon78]

I am fine with it's spellcasting being only fourth level and it doesn't need the ability to cast spells through it's weapon/while attacking because that is the magus's gimmick.

I can't remember, are bloodline feats only active while raging?

I agree it could use a good will save.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think of bloodragers as kids who manifested sorcerer power, then decided that didn't want to be squishy.

[Gorbacz]

My Barbarian player in Skull'n'Shackles was thinking about going Rage Prophet, but now we'll retrain him into an Elemental Bloodrager. Considering that he's a Suli, this is going to be an interesting combo :)

[Neo2151]

I think people that are asking for a high base Will save are forgetting the Will Save boost that Raging offers.

Giving the class 2/0/2 on top of the boost from Rage would be too good. (And even if you don't agree, that is the argument that will keep the devs from ever making that change.)

[Paladinosaur]

I the spell progression is really odd. they start every spell level with one more spell than the ranger and the paladin, but in the end, they are one 4th level spell behind.

Also, is he able to cast when he's not bloodraging? And whats his caster level? full class or -3?

[mellowgoth]

I would suggest that, like the Magus, the Bloodrager only gets proficiency and no-arcane-failure casting in light armor at 1st level, and add medium armor at 5th or 7th level. IT seems more in line with previous design decisions.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Also, the Arcane Bloodline's capstone ability seems kinda off, seeing as you have to be a dragon to be able to even cast spells as normal. If we added something like Monstrous Physique III/IV it would be really awesome. And, as someone mentioned before, Eschew Materials as a bonus feat is needed.

[Captain K.]

Question about bloodlines:

Can a Tiefling use the Fiendish Sorcery racial trait to count for Bloodlines?

I am going to assume you cannot take a Bloodrager Bloodline and the equivalent Eldritch Heritage Sorcerer Bloodline? No Draconic/Draconic for instance. However, different ones should stack because Sorcerers can do so, can't they?

So here's a sketch...

Demon Spawn Tiefling (+2 Cha and Str, -2 Int)

Eldritch Heritage Abyssal Bloodline (completely reasonable for a Demon Teifling) for claws and Str bonus

Arcane Bloodrager Bloodline (for awesome SLAs) or Celestial Bloodline (if you are being funny)

I think a monster can be made here. RARRGH

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I posted a topic about Fiendish Sorcerery earlier. The other person who replied said because it is an alternate class, it should count. The elemental races, too, for the elemental bloodline.

[Captain K.]

Ninjaxenomorph wrote:

I posted a topic about Fiendish Sorcerery earlier. The other person who replied said because it is an alternate class, it should count. The elemental races, too, for the elemental bloodline.

Sorry, didn't see it.

As for elemental races, yes, and also for Suli.

Suli are a great Bloddrager race (+2 Str and Cha, -2 Int) and can deal extra elemental damage on melee attacks. Great. But you can focus and have Earth Suli, Air Suli etc. you can also take elemental Bloodlines. Is it kosher, aside from RP justification to take Fire Suli with Air elemental bloodline? it strikes me as vibrant with potentially some awesome powers (massive resistance to two elements can't hurt, for example).

[Slacker2010]

Rysky wrote:

Mahtobedis wrote:

Is it just me or is the celestial blood rager kind of stupid good?

Chaotic Good actually :3

There is no restriction on alignment for Bloodragers.

I built some different versions that I want to play test and looking at it I have a few comments. These might change after I actually get to test him:

- Arcane 4th level rage power should add in some offensive options. Maybe Magic weapon or something simple. I think adding 2 slightly offensive choices would help alot.
- Arcane 8th level rage power to get displacement is little too strong. I realize its a 3rd level spell like haste, but haste is more likely to be cast cause it hits a whole party. Also, boots of speed are 12k. While cloak of displacement is 50k. I have no idea what to replace this with. I would also lobby for adding a 3rd option.
- They get no ability at level 3, This makes me sad. I dont believe they need a power boost but I agree with others that Uncanny dodge and DR is maybe stepping on Barbarian toes a bit and dont really feel like the fit the concept of the characters a built. I now have spells to help shore up some of my downfalls or to help exploit my offensive options. Recommend drop these, add Eschew Materials and something at level 3 so we dont feel like its a dead level.
- The class needs its own spell list. I understand why the developers did not want to do this. For the space it takes up in new books, but this is the the only full BAB 4/9 casting class there is. Paladins and Rangers get some awesome 1st level spells cause they have to wait so long. ALso the magus class list was created for that type of play style.
- I agree that the Aberrant, Abyssal, Arcane, and Celestial seem like the big winners. I think all the bloodlines could use re-balancing.

As a side note: For those that believe its MAD, I was able to build the class without to many problems. I dont think this is much worse than a ranger (2hander or melee type) that would need the same STR,DEX,CON,WIS as apposed to the STR,DEX,CON,CHA the bloodrager uses.

My stats I used are: 16+2, 14, 14, 8, 10, 12

By level 7 or 8 you can pick up a headband to get your 14 CHA and then you can cast even your 4th level spells while getting your bonus 2nd level spell.

Still, I cant wait to play him.

[Zombie Ninja]

Slacker2010 wrote:

As a side note: For those that believe its MAD, I was able to build the class without to many problems. I dont think this is much worse than a ranger (2hander or melee type) that would need the same STR,DEX,CON,WIS...

No offense, but the reason the class is MAD is because the stats you listed are the only proper way to build a bloodrager. You can't drop Con or Dex bellow 14 that's why their MAD, you can't raise Int at all. And, you have drop Cha in order to bring it up later with a magic item. Even paladins have a reason to raise their casting attribute beyond a 14 due to smite, divine grace, lay on hands, and channel D.E. It seems weird to me that a charisma based caster, with a parent class the exclusively uses charisma, first thought is to dump charisma. Maybe you like that, I find it strange.

[Slacker2010]

Zombie Ninja wrote:

No offense, but the reason the class is MAD is because the stats you listed are the only proper way to build a bloodrager. You can't drop Con or Dex bellow 14 that's why their MAD, you can't raise Int at all. And, you have drop Cha in order to bring it up later with a magic item. Even paladins have a reason to raise their casting attribute beyond a 14 due to smite, divine grace, lay on hands, and channel D.E. It seems weird to me that a charisma based caster, with a parent class the exclusively uses charisma, first thought is to dump charisma. Maybe you like that, I find it strange.

Are those stats the only way to build a melee ranger? I dont see how this differs from classes now. Paladins do need more CHA due to other class abilities but they can drop DEX to 10 and wear plate. So that argument isn't the same. I think the ranger is the best comparison. Regardless if you want to continue this discussion/debate lets go to Private messages as not to hijack the bloodrager thread.

[Siren's Mask]

Love this class! But i think there may be a slight oversight with a bloodline.

Two of my players are building Bloodragers. I am having them build a 5th level, 10th, 16th, and 20th versions. One of them turns to me as tells me that the arcane bloodline is more dragon themed than the dragon bloodline. I didn't believe it so I took a look, by level 16 sure enough the arcane blood line can have better energy resistance, and actually turn into a dragon. Now this is awesome, but it kinda outshines the bloodline actually based upon dragons, considering that one spell gives the arcane blood line a breath weapon, 5 natural attacks,the same natural armor, flight, and in some cases a new movement speed.

my suggestion is to replace dragon form on the arcane list with Undead anatomy III, or giant form I. Then replace tail slap on the dragon bloodline with, the ability to turn into dragon ( though limited to what type you picked in beginning). The fact that the dragon bloodline can never actually turn into a dragon, via powers or his limited spell progression, and another bloodline can is kind of ironic.

[Flamdring]

Calybos1 wrote:

Flamdring wrote:

Calybos1 wrote:

I'm just lost on this one. Yes, it looks very powerful and combat-effective, if you like that sort of thing.

But... what IS a Bloodrager? What's the underlying concept? How do you roleplay a guy who's a raving, howling, murderous swirl of death in combat...

...who occasionally stops to toss off a few spells?

Seriously. Not getting it. The barbarian is the ultimate in pure physical focus--and he's casting spells in the middle of a fight? What's up with that?

Think... Akuma, except magic instead of ki and a huge sword.

Check. Who's Akuma? If he wasn't in Lord of the Rings or Doctor Who, I've never heard of him.

"Must not be... upset. Must not nerd rage." In case you aren't joking though, just google image that s~$%. One of the dopest video game villains of all time.

[mellowgoth]

MY KINGMAKER PLAYERS: GET THEE HENCE! Thou shalt not read!

Spoiler:

I am already thinking about adding a few of these guys when I do "Blood for Blood"...

[Victor Zajic]

Azure_Zero wrote:

I have to disagree with the removal of Uncanny Dodge,

Given that the Bloodrager is more Barbarian than Sorcerer, and also more melee focused than spell focused.
So from my POV the Uncanny Dodges should stay, and not be removed.

The plus Charisma instead of Constitution, sounds good in the early stages of it's theory, but falls flat in that it would raise some problems, Spells per day, used them up, rage and get a bonus spell slot, and cast, broken.
In combat next to foes, What helps more a Boost to CON or a Boost to CHA,
CON = HP, FORT saves, where CHA = Spell DC, of which there are few spells per day, So the winner is CON.

That's not how the rules work. You don't get bonus spells until you have the cha bonus for 24 hours. It's just like how you don't get bonus spells when someone casts Eagle's Splendor on you.

[AM BLOODRAGER]

AM BLOODRAGER HAPPY WITH FULL BAB.

AM BLOODRAGER NOT HAPPY WITH LOW WILL SAVE.

AM BLOODRAGER OKAY WITH 4TH LEVEL SPELLS. FIREBALL 3RD LEVEL.

AM BLOODRAGER CAN BE SWAYED WITH DISINTEGRATE.

[Paladinosaur]

Spoiler:

I'm totaly remaking that barbarian in Demon's Heresy as a Abissal Bloodrager.

[Calybos1]

Flamdring wrote:

Calybos1 wrote:

Check. Who's Akuma? If he wasn't in Lord of the Rings or Doctor Who, I've never heard of him.

"Must not be... upset. Must not nerd rage." In case you aren't joking though, just google image that s!!&. One of the dopest video game villains of all time.

Nope, wasn't joking. He's apparently some video-game character I'd never heard of before now.

And really, a picture doesn't help me get the character concept behind it; is there any info on his purpose/mission, persona, function on a team, etc.? I'm still having trouble getting a handle on the RP aspects of the Bloodrager class.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think of it growing up as a child: this is the barbarian 'witch-boy' that features as a villain in movies like Fire and Ice, and the protagonist in Overlord II.

[Joey Virtue]

If we were to design their own spell list what schools do you think would be the most flavorful for the class?

I was thinking Abjuration, Divination, Transmutation and maybe Illusion being the 4 schools that would help this class the most and be the most useful and flavorful

[Virilitas]

Heh, we've got some people saying they're too weak because of MAD and then another group complaining about them being too strong compared to normal barbarians.

MAD: This is how Ranger/Paladin are built. You have a physical fighter fellow that needs all those physical stats, and then a whole different stat for casting. Paladins and Rangers do just fine like this, it's a balancing factor for having spells on a full BAB character. You get the option of going for high Charisma to boost casting or just planning for 14 charisma by level 13.

Too Barbarian: Look at the Ranger compared to the fighter. He gives up 6 bonus feats and gains a whole ton of useful features. Sure the fighter gained a few things from the 3.5 to pathfinder switch but it's most those bonus feats in exchange for oodles of features. A barbarian gets the freedom of all those rage power selections vs bloodlines that seem to have 2 abilites and 4 bad for each one. This isn't even taking into account Rage cycling which at higher levels makes Barbarians into crazy powerhouses.

[Flamdring]

Calybos1 wrote:

Flamdring wrote:

Calybos1 wrote:

Check. Who's Akuma? If he wasn't in Lord of the Rings or Doctor Who, I've never heard of him.

"Must not be... upset. Must not nerd rage." In case you aren't joking though, just google image that s!!&. One of the dopest video game villains of all time.

Nope, wasn't joking. He's apparently some video-game character I'd never heard of before now.

And really, a picture doesn't help me get the character concept behind it; is there any info on his purpose/mission, persona, function on a team, etc.? I'm still having trouble getting a handle on the RP aspects of the Bloodrager class.

Oh well, he's a masterfull martial artist with other powers similar to those in his series... i.e. Projecting fireballs from his hands moving at unnatural speeds and so on. However while the other characters utilize these powers (called the "hado") through years of experience and supernatural focus, he's mastered a method (often called the "dark hado") which is more inherent in its use. In other words he surrenders his mind to the power rather than having to bring it forth manually. The side effect of this is that the power manifests as an otherworldly all consuming rage. As for his story and goals well, he wants simply to be the strongest person alive and strives to battle ever stronger opponents as a means to prove it. Now swap out his predeliction for hand to hand combat with martial weapons and call his powers arcane instead of "ki," and I think it really works. There are other ways you could do it but it's what immediately came to mind for me. Apologies for the misunderstanding lol.

[Oterisk]

Okay, the self-proclaimed expert on playing a dragon is here. Time for some knuckle cracking and getting to work.

Initial look: I like it. Alot.

Now that that's over with, lets get to the meat.

Thoughts on Dragon Bloodrager vs Dragon Disciple:

How does the Bloodrager stack up with the Dragon Disciple Meat, er, ahem, prestige class. The biggest deal that I see here is not how this class obsoletes the DD prestige class, but how they interact is the most interesting thing. If the bloodlines of this and the DD stack, then I don't see why the Dragon Bloodline is bad. Through the DD they would also get more and bigger dragon form, less spells, more Breath Weapons, better and permanent flight, better will saves, and still be ready for the capstone. They would lose rage progression and basically be another top choice next to the Arcane bloodline (although Displacement looks pretty sweet).

If they don't stack, then we need to jack it up a bit. Because, let's be honest now, nothing should inspire awe at the table more than a Dragon. I know demons are all the rage right now (I like my puns) but Dragons are the big boys, and that should be known. Switch up the powers to be more along the lines of the Dragon Disciple, and you have a bigger winner.

I understand your change of Shield instead of Mage Armor, due to the fact that Mage Armor is completely useless to an armored caster, so applauds for that. Most of the bloodline abilities of the Dragon are exact copies over from the bloodline, while others bloodlines got a complete overhaul and some neat options. I'd recommend similar things for all bloodlines, although I have an inkling that you did this so people would playtest the stronger versions to see if they were too powerful, and adjustments may be made anyway.

1st level claws are good.
4th level armor isn't bad, but I'd actually recommend adding the ability to decide to triple their DR if it becomes DR/magic. It's weaker, but it's useful and thematic for actual dragons.
8th level is about when the DD gets a Bite attack. The breath weapon is thematic sure, but Dragon's breath is a 4th level spell for the Magus, so it isn't as if they won't get it.
12th level, DD's can turn into a Dragon via Dragon Form 1 once per day. If you kept 8th level as the breath weapon, and gave them a bite attack and a tail slap (both primaries) at level 12 then I'd be excited.
16th, DD's get FotD II, they have a +7 to NA, Breath 2x/day, permanent flight, and a few other goodies.
20th seems exactly the same.

With all that said, this is a great option for other bloodlines, but Draconic, I'd actually tell people to skip it for the DD. If that was your intention, then great, but otherwise, it's lackluster. A Barb 4, Sorc 1, DD 10 has 4 less BAB, but spells and much more cool dragony goodness that doesn't tie them to their rage.

I have a suggestion for this class. The one thing that seems to be a big hit is the ability to add spells into the rage. Other things I'm seeing are desires for new mechanics, so I've one for you. The defensive spells that Arcane has, the size bonus of Abyssal, people are really excited about this.

So how about this: A Bloodrager can cast a limited amount of spells as they BEGIN rage. The duration changes to the duration of the rage. They would be limited by the spells they could actually cast, so spamming spells through rage cycling would be curtailed. You could make a short list of spells that can be used this way, or you can limit it in several ways, probably the best being spells that are normally 1 minute per level or longer in duration, or if you want touch spells that allow you to hold a charge could qualify too.

Then you could save the bloodline abilities for things that didn't emulate spells, which is better for flavor. I'm not saying what you did was bad, I just think this would be several layers of awesome and would encourage more variety with the class rather than everyone picking a bloodline that starts with the letters A or C.