A bonus to Charisma While raging would also increase spell DC's and make some Magus spells more viable. This would make the class more versatile overall.If bloodraging is the the character's blood surging with arcane
power, it would make sense that the character would glow with charisma while raging.So the Bloodrager can only cast while in bloodrage, right? Why is this unclear to me?
I believe they can cast without raging. The 'spells' section doesn't have the word rage in it at all. They 'gain the ability to cast spells while raging' at level 4. This is separate to gaining the ability to cast spells and serves to stop rage getting in the way of casting.
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I think overall, this is my favorite class just from looking into it. I really want to try out a celestial bloodline bloodrager multiclassed with paladin, especially in my Wrath of the Righteous campaign.
I will definitely be trying out different concepts tomorrow when I can better look into the playtest.
Well, mind that the Bloodrager needs at least 14 Cha now, adding some additional MAD to a melee class (which already wants good Str/Con/Dex).
And there are some excellent, comparable rage powers like CaGM, Superstitious, Spell Sunder, and Pounce that you miss out on.
As I went past Aberrant and Abyssal, there was a decline in the bloodlines (in some more than others. Comparing Arcane and Fey, I can't justify Fey).
I love the flavor of Destined (if I were to make Rider/Iskandar inspired character, he'd be a Destined Bloodrager). The mechanics aren't too exciting though. As a full BAB class, I don't think I need that much help hitting more. I guess I could stack on penalties for offense in otherwise, oversized weapon an' all.
just a question but the Fey bloodline has Confusing critical, confusing someone when you critical them. confuse says that a confused target always attacks someone of they attack them in that turn. doesn't this make it useless? unless i am misunderstanding this.
That's not useless. In the worst case, you get attacked when you would have been attacked anyway. But there are plenty of cases where you're happy to get attacked because you have better armor and HP than the rogue you're flanking with who would have been attacked instead. Or because the target is a spellcaster and would have done something worse than attack.
Basically, anything that keeps your opponent from making intelligent decisions is a net win for you.
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just a question but the Fey bloodline has Confusing critical, confusing someone when you critical them. confuse says that a confused target always attacks someone of they attack them in that turn. doesn't this make it useless? unless i am misunderstanding this.
If you hit them after their turn they have to toll on the table, also maybe a good tanking option?
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That's not useless. In the worst case, you get attacked when you would have been attacked anyway. But there are plenty of cases where you're happy to get attacked because you have better armor and HP than the rogue you're flanking with who would have been attacked instead. Or because the target is a spellcaster and would have done something worse than attack.
Basically, anything that keeps your opponent from making intelligent decisions is a net win for you.
Ok that makes more sense. I wasn't thinking about that. Thanks
Incorporeal Bloodrager (Su): At 16th level, once per day
you can choose to become incorporeal. You only take
half damage from corporeal sources as long as they are
magic (you take no damage from non-magic weapons and
objects). Your attacks deal normal damage due to your
ghost strike bloodrage power.
How long does this last? Is it for the entire rage?
That would be my guess, that it lasts for the rage since it doesn't specify any duration.
Just saw the celestial bloodrager.
Ah pity, ran out of space. Gotta remove that one for the Verdant bloodline. :p
It says it counts as Rage for the purpose of prereqs for Feats and abilities that require Rage IIRC.
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Meh I got Jipped on that one, every time I get angry I just turn into a bush. An angry bush. But still just a bush.Ah pity, ran out of space. Gotta remove that one for the Verdant bloodline. :pJust saw the celestial bloodrager.
capstone level 20 power - burning bush.
Yep. So there you go.
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Wow. I'm pleasantly surprised by this class. I didn't expect much from it, but it turns out to be one of the coolest and best designed classes in the playtest.
Whoever designed this class has my compliments.
I honestly can't wait to play this one! :D
Class looks pretty darn cool.
The bloodlines seems to swing pretty wildly in their power level (eg: getting blur for 1 round after charging vs. getting blur for the duration of your rage)
Celestial and Arcane lines jump out as being very good on first read. It makes its concept work, and fills a neat niche.
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So someone pointed out in another thread that if the bloodrager took levels in dragon disciple that by RAW they would not have to be draconic bloodline because they are not truly a sorcerer, but this seems to go against what I read as this basically counting as an alternate class. I disagree with this assessment. With that in mind I think that to take levels in DD you would have to have Draconic bloodline, but since this is the case it would enhance the bloodline powers of the bloodrager.
If this is not the case I think it would unbalance the class quite a bit.
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So someone pointed out in another thread that if the bloodrager took levels in dragon disciple that by RAW they would not have to be draconic bloodline because they are not truly a sorcerer, but this seems to go against what I read as this basically counting as an alternate class. I disagree with this assessment. With that in mind I think that to take levels in DD you would have to have Draconic bloodline, but since this is the case it would enhance the bloodline powers of the bloodrager.
If this is not the case I think it would unbalance the class quite a bit.
yeah- i raised a couple questions about DD early on... hopefully someone will address them soon...
An ability that seems like it would fit in this class is the ability to cast a spell (at least one that is a melee touch attack) instead of just attacking as usual at the end of a charge.
Something that seems strange to me are the Saves for the Bloodrager. He has a good Fortitude, but low Reflex and Will. I would think that the Bloodrager would have both a good Fortitude and Will, similar to how the Barbarian has a good Fortitude, and the Sorcerer has a good Will.
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Just a couple thoughts from me on the matter (as somebody who plays a ton of barbarian):
This class is so good. Ungodly good. I would dump Cha to 7 and still play this class. The bloodlines are greatly unbalanced currently. Destined, Celestial, Aberrant, Abyssal, and Arcane (by far the worst offender) above and beyond outclass the other bloodlines. Wings is one thing I'd like to point out. For a normal barbarian, getting wings was a big rage power investment that blocked access to beast totem, and cost extra rage rounds. For something like celestial, there is no cost at all. Also, some of the other bloodlines (dragon jumps out) get worse flight, at a later level.
Arcane is just too good. Not only does it make a great anti-mage, but the ability to just enter a rage and counter-act the greatest weakness of a barbarian (low AC) with something as godly as displacement is just astoundingly good. Also, does the displacement last the whole rage or just rounds/level. Does it last after rage? The other buffs are just icing on the cake. And the level 16 polymorph spells are really cool too. I can just imagine getting the polymorph stat boosts, plenty of natural attacks, rage bonuses, and displacement to top it off.
Spells: It looks like the spells are restricted to only being cast when in rage. I think if I were to use a bloodrager I would rarely cast spells, and only use them for utility like see invisible or something. It's not worth spending a round casting during your limited resource rage rounds (that have a penalty for raging longer) instead of straight killing the enemy with your boosted strength.
MAD: This guy isn't MAD at all. I wouldn't ever grab a charisma higher than 12 because there is no need to go higher than 12 (and by changing this I think it will bring his power down a bit). While there are some DC spells, that isn't what this class is about, or really what the magus was about, even. The touch spells are ok, but the buffs are where it gets good, which requires no charisma other than the minimum to cast. By buying a 12 charisma (only 2 points) and an easily affordable headband of charisma in the high teens, the bloodrager is set.
EDIT: I agree he should get a good will save too.
That's a comfort zone thing on using a headband to go from 12 to 14. You could start at 10 and do the same thing actually, or even 8.
I'm not comfortable with the prospect of relying on a magic item for class abilities, personally.
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I'm nowhere near knowledgeable on rules and power levels, but I must say "HOT DAMN I'M EXCITED FOR THIS ONE!" It's like a less-refined version of the magus. I always liked the magus, but wanted it to feel a little less "wizardly" for characters who combine arcane power and battle prowess, but weren't necessarily in the right class (in society or wealth) to afford a mystical college education. Know what I'm saying?
Also, A RAGING CLASS THAT CAN BE ANY ALIGNMENT! AT LAST!
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Very well made class. Super cool.
The Celestial Bloodrager is something else, chalk one up for the good guys here. Come flying in on wings of fury...
I have a question about whether abilities work with the Suli race. Relevant because Suli get Cha and Str and elemental powers.
Can you take a different element to a specialized Suli element? This seems vital, I want to know if a Fire Suli can take Cold Bloodrager. It would be sweet if this happens.
Going to stat up an Angel-blooded Aasimar Celestial Bloodrager now. Cower before me, foul demons!
Elemental Bloodline: why do they get elemental body I at 16th level, but at 12th, can use elemental body IV for level/rounds per day while raging? When would they use elemental body I?
Celestial: Awesome! But strange if you aren't good-aligned.
Why don't they simply get Rage? I'm probably missing something obvious, but it looks mechanically identical. Then Bloodrage could be a class feature that let you apply the other effects to rage, including bloodrager spellcasting.
I'm guessing it's called something different so, if the multiclass restrictions are removed (as I hope they will be), Bloodrage and Rage rounds won't stack.
That and it does do something a bit different thematically in the Bloodline powers.
On the Elemental Body as a spell thing, what's the issue there?
They get Elemental Body I as a spell (castable a number of times per day, for rounds/level each casting) and Elemental Body IV once per day.
I could understand if they had it at-will, but as-is I don't see any issue with them getting the lesser form as a spell.
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This is one of the best classes in the playtest because along with the skald it is one of the few which is actually greater than the sum of its parts.
I have some specific questions about the Dragon Disciple. Does the Altenate classes entry for the blodrager make them count as a sorcerer for the purposes of the PrC? By RAW I don't think that alternate classes do that, but if the bloodrager does not count as a sorcerer then it opens up several confusing holes in the rules. If they don't count as a sorcerer then a bloodrager of any bloodline can take levels of DD and no matter what their bloodline they then gain the sorcerer's draconic bloodline which works both in and out of a rage.
Also I assume that no matter what version of the draconic bloodline they wind up with, any bonus explecitly listed on the table for DD works both in and out of a rage. For example a Bloodrager 5/DD 3 gains their breath weapon 1/day from their bloodline and one additional time per day from the DD specific breath weapon ability. So they can use their breath weapon 1/day (from DD) at any time and one additional time per day only while raging (from bloodline).
Another example. At 12th level our Bloodrager/DD gains a fly speed of 30 ft (average) while raging. Then at 14th level at the earliest they gain the wings power from their DD class. Since they have the Draconic Wings bloodline power rather than the Wings bloodline power they gain the sorcerer's wings bloodline power giving them a fly speed of 60 ft. (average) at all times. Then at 16th level their bloodline's wings power catches up and they have a fly speed of 60 ft. (average) at all times eexcept when they rage and their maneuverability increases to (good).
Are these two examples correct because there is a lot of potential for confusion and argument here.
On the Elemental Body as a spell thing, what's the issue there?They get Elemental Body I as a spell (castable a number of times per day, for rounds/level each casting) and Elemental Body IV once per day.
They get Elemental Body IV at 12th level, but don't get Elemental Body I as a spell until four levels later. What is the expected use of the spell?
Now, while Blood Rage counts as Rage for the purposes of feats, can you use it to qualify for Extra Rage Powers and acquire Rage Powers as a Barbarian?
My gut says yes, but I bet you'll tell me no, which is a shame, because a feat tax to be Even More Demony/Angely/Beasty is something I'll happily pay just for the totem powers.
I'm nowhere near knowledgeable on rules and power levels, but I must say "HOT DAMN I'M EXCITED FOR THIS ONE!" It's like a less-refined version of the magus. I always liked the magus, but wanted it to feel a little less "wizardly" for characters who combine arcane power and battle prowess, but weren't necessarily in the right class (in society or wealth) to afford a mystical college education. Know what I'm saying?
Also, A RAGING CLASS THAT CAN BE ANY ALIGNMENT! AT LAST!
I really hope that last fact remains as it is after the playtest.
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So just started reading this and it seems really fun. One thing I do want to point out is the typo in this sentence.
"Many of their kin use this power primarily for spellcasting, but bloodragers enter an altered state where their bloodline becomes manifest—rage becomes reality, where the potency of strange ancestral unions and deeds lashes out with supernatural furry with devastating ends."
bold added for emphasis.
Just a few quick question:
What´s the casterlevel for his spells?
What is his casterlevel for arcane strike?
Can he cast spells while not raging?
Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
He can cast spells while not raging, but he only gains his bloodline powers while raging.
The text of the bloodline powers is correct as to when he gets his bloodline powers. The entry on the table at 3rd level should be 4th.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
They get Elemental Body IV at 12th level, but don't get Elemental Body I as a spell until four levels later. What is the expected use of the spell?
To gain the benefits of Elemental Body I, I would assume.
They only get Elemental Body IV once per day. If they want an Elemental Body more than once per day, they have EM I.
They get Elemental Body IV at 12th level, but don't get Elemental Body I as a spell until four levels later. What is the expected use of the spell?
To gain the benefits of Elemental Body I, I would assume.
They only get Elemental Body IV once per day. If they want an Elemental Body more than once per day, they have EM I.
Okay, that is a more literal answer than I was seeking. :)
I guess my question is, why are we supposed to get excited about turning into a Small elemental at level 16, which a sorcerer can do at level 8, especially in light of the ability to turn into a Huge elemental once a day, several levels sooner? It just seems weird. Maybe if it were elemental body II.
I'd have to test it, but this class, the arcanist, and the shaman feel the strongest to me. Bloodrager especially, I have a hard time seeing what they give up compared to a straight barbarian. Will test and come back.
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I would assume he like the Ranger and Paladin has a caster level of his class lvl -4.
I am a bit sad that he can cast out of rage. I personally saw it as a balancing factor. Because lets not kid ourselves its a strong class. Having to worry about bloodrage rounds and being able to be in bloodrage when you need a spell. It would make playing the class well very tactical. But that's just my opinion so of course take it with a grain of salt.
I am also in the camp that thinks a few of the bloodlines are a bit strong. Arcane being the one that jumps out at me. It simply just gets the best arcane buffs a bit to easily. I would drop a couple (displacement and haste) move some to a tier up (blur) and add some of the weaker arcane buffs in there (like false life.). They would still be plenty useful since we are talking about action free buffing here.
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I think the capstone power for the abyssal bloodline is a bit underwhelming. By 20th level most creatures will be able to shrug 2d6+Con fire damage with ease and a lot of encounters could have even by 10th. Would love to see it maybe doubled or given some ability to shrug resistances or some other quality akin to that.
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Also I'm one of those people who wants the alignment restriction back. It feels off that a class built around releasing your power in an uncontrolled, barely sentient rage is going to have a lawful alignment especially considering he doesn't have even the ability to focus on recalling random bits of information.
That being said I am totally down for someone to pitch an idea to this that makes sense.
Also I kind of wish they had d12 hp.
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They get Elemental Body IV at 12th level, but don't get Elemental Body I as a spell until four levels later. What is the expected use of the spell?
To gain the benefits of Elemental Body I, I would assume.
They only get Elemental Body IV once per day. If they want an Elemental Body more than once per day, they have EM I.
Okay, that is a more literal answer than I was seeking. :)
I guess my question is, why are we supposed to get excited about turning into a Small elemental at level 16, which a sorcerer can do at level 8, especially in light of the ability to turn into a Huge elemental once a day, several levels sooner? It just seems weird. Maybe if it were elemental body II.
I dunno if you're supposed to get excited about it, but it's a nice ability to have in your back pocket. Better than NOT having it, wouldn't you say? =)
Also I'm one of those people who wants the alignment restriction back. It feels off that a class built around releasing your power in an uncontrolled, barely sentient rage is going to have a lawful alignment especially considering he doesn't have even the ability to focus on recalling random bits of information.
That being said I am totally down for someone to pitch an idea to this that makes sense.
I think the problem is interpreting it as "uncontrolled, barely sentient Rage". That's not what normal Rage is in the first place, and this one is much more lucid than that, being able to sling spells while you get mad.
And having an alignment restriction gets in the way of a lot of the Bloodlines as well.
So my Infernal Bloodline guy, proud of his Diabolical heritage has to be Neutral or Chaotic?
Just because you "unleash the beast" doesn't make you chaotic. You can think of it any number of ways. A Battle Trance. Supreme Focus. Simply tapping into a wellspring of power and letting some pour forth.
All of these, and more. No reason to limit it, that just restricts people's RP opportunities for no real reason.
Quick question: Some of the bloodline powers are worded as "when you enter a bloodrage" and some aren't. Was that intention (i.e. I can grow draconic claws whenever I want, but can only grow wings when I rage) or is there text that I'm missing stating that you can only use powers while raging? And if the latter, why the distinction on some of the powers?
Edit: didn't read further up. my bad.
Also I'm one of those people who wants the alignment restriction back. It feels off that a class built around releasing your power in an uncontrolled, barely sentient rage is going to have a lawful alignment especially considering he doesn't have even the ability to focus on recalling random bits of information.
That being said I am totally down for someone to pitch an idea to this that makes sense.
I like the removal of the alignment restriction, and would advocate the removal of it from the Barbarian as well.
Because who you are in combat doesn't reflect who you are completely.
Just because your character might go berserk in combat doesn't mean he can't otherwise be law-abiding/follow a code of honor/be disciplined. Some barbarians live for the rush of rage, but I don't see why you couldn't just be a warrior who slips into a battle rhythm, or in this case, his blood powers.
You can justify it any way you like, though it's easier for bloodragers since you can "blame" their ancestry.
Infernal blood? That's pure Law and Evil coursing through your blood. You might resist the evil, but the law isn't so bad.
(Edit: Damnit Rynjin!)
Destined bloodline? You want to be the king someday. Maybe you're a conqueror, but you plan to make laws so you have a healthy respect for them.
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They get Elemental Body IV at 12th level, but don't get Elemental Body I as a spell until four levels later. What is the expected use of the spell?
To gain the benefits of Elemental Body I, I would assume.
They only get Elemental Body IV once per day. If they want an Elemental Body more than once per day, they have EM I.
Okay, that is a more literal answer than I was seeking. :)
I guess my question is, why are we supposed to get excited about turning into a Small elemental at level 16, which a sorcerer can do at level 8, especially in light of the ability to turn into a Huge elemental once a day, several levels sooner? It just seems weird. Maybe if it were elemental body II.
I dunno if you're supposed to get excited about it, but it's a nice ability to have in your back pocket. Better than NOT having it, wouldn't you say? =)
Also I'm one of those people who wants the alignment restriction back. It feels off that a class built around releasing your power in an uncontrolled, barely sentient rage is going to have a lawful alignment especially considering he doesn't have even the ability to focus on recalling random bits of information.
That being said I am totally down for someone to pitch an idea to this that makes sense.
I think the problem is interpreting it as "uncontrolled, barely sentient Rage". That's not what normal Rage is in the first place, and this one is much more lucid than that, being able to sling spells while you get mad.
And having an alignment restriction gets in the way of a lot of the Bloodlines as well.
So my Infernal Bloodline guy, proud of his Diabolical heritage has to be Neutral or Chaotic?
Just because you "unleash the beast" doesn't make you chaotic. You can think of it any number of ways. A Battle Trance. Supreme Focus. Simply tapping into a wellspring of power and letting some pour forth.
All of these, and more. No reason to limit...
The problem I have I suppose is the lack of the ability to concentrate or do most purely mental tasks which feels like it goes against that supreme focus, at one with the fury of the universe pitch.
As for infernal characters and the inability to be lawful that would present it still seems to track, we haven't really seen any devils that are built around a raging like concept and are usually very regimented, orderly, and aware for the most part.
Again though it might just be that I haven't seen an interesting presentation yet that gives it that pop that makes it say "Yeah that makes sense as a lawful character" yet.
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Also I'm one of those people who wants the alignment restriction back. It feels off that a class built around releasing your power in an uncontrolled, barely sentient rage is going to have a lawful alignment especially considering he doesn't have even the ability to focus on recalling random bits of information.
That being said I am totally down for someone to pitch an idea to this that makes sense.
I like the removal of the alignment restriction, and would advocate the removal of it from the Barbarian as well.
Because who you are in combat doesn't reflect who you are completely.
Just because your character might go berserk in combat doesn't mean he can't otherwise be law-abiding/follow a code of honor/be disciplined. Some barbarians live for the rush of rage, but I don't see why you couldn't just be a warrior who slips into a battle rhythm, or in this case, his blood powers.
You can justify it any way you like, though it's easier for bloodragers since you can "blame" their ancestry.
Infernal blood? That's pure Law and Evil coursing through your blood. You might resist the evil, but the law isn't so bad.
(Edit: Damnit Rynjin!)Destined bloodline? You want to be the king someday. Maybe you're a conqueror, but you plan to make laws so you have a healthy respect for them.
Again ehh, it's just something that feels "off" to me, especially considering the alignment restrictions on barbarians that we currently have.
Now if they decided to remove it from barbarians as well I feel like it might bug me less, especially considering what it kind of says about more primitive cultures that the barbarian is often used to portray.
You are supremely focused at killing your enemies, and at the same time, not being killed by your enemies. You are watching every motion they make and you are aware of every muscle you exert.
You don't have time for any danged calculus.
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You are supremely focused at killing your enemies, and at the same time, not being killed by your enemies. You are watching every motion they make and you are aware of every muscle you exert.
You don't have time for any danged calculus.
Ehh. Again I think it's one of those things that just isn't going to click with me till I get something that clicks with me.
That being said I think it's also the feeling that it sets a weird precedent where the one way to remove your unlawful urges from a rage is to let something mess with your bloodline which just kind of feels off in some way.
This typo been spotted yet?
"Many of their kin use this power primarily for spellcasting, but bloodragers enter an altered state where their bloodline becomes manifest—rage becomes reality, where the potency of strange ancestral unions and deeds lashes out with supernatural furry with devastating ends."
I suppose that's appropriate enough for the draconic bloodline, even moreso if they get rakshasa down the line, but yeah.
It'd be awesome to see equivalents for the other 24-44 sorc bloodlines, although that may be asking a lot. Is this going to be the complete list, or is it just a sampling to get the playtest ball rolling?
Other than that, absolutely nothing but love for this one. All these options are thematically fun as heck, but they don't outshine the variety and customization you get with a barbarian. The spells are a fun bit of gravy I can't see being cast very often, but make up for being so focused on the one main gimmick. Fantastic class.