The last seems pretty simple. You'd have a familliar when the blood focus was active, and it'd be non-existent at all other times.
So... I imagine that like this. You use blood focus and a small talking toad appears "Yay, I exist! this world is so great. I can't wait to-!" and he poofs out of existence before he even announces what to do with his life... Poor little guy. Good thing your the only one who heard his optimism.
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Finally, the arcanist has access to the fewest different spells, but can change them out for a specific circumstance.I haven't read all the posts yet, but...
Actually, the arcanist spells prepared table is identical to the sorcerer spells known table, so even if they prep the same spells every day they're no worse in terms of raw spellcasting off than a sorcerer with 1 less spell per level per day.
Roadie, I think you're incorrect. A Sorceror has MORE spells on tap than an Arcanist. The Arcanist is limited to the spells prepared as shown on the table. The base spells known by Sorceror is the same in number, BUT the Sorceror ALSO gets to cast Bloodline Spells in addition to the spells known off the table, which the Arcanist does not get (except to add them to their spellbook).
question: if an arcanist were to select the arcane bloodline, they can get a (temporary) familiar or arcane bond as they so choose? since the ability no longer works after [arcanist level] rounds, the bond/familiar disappears.
doesnt this mean that the arcanist can go "oh no im out of spells--nevermind, i spent a blood point for an arcane bond for a free one", or create a little blood-point-scorpion for a free init boost before battle?
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My analysis after building up a few Arcanists:
Chosen School: A +1 to caster level/DC is nice and never becomes useless or too OP, but feels very bland and out of place. None of the Wizard Schools are this generic. The ability can be useful, it just has no impact or real connection with the rest of the class; I found myself very scared to use it as well, considering the penalties of running out.
This is my greatest concern at the moment; aside from this option, there is very little unique to the Wizard left in the class aside from the spell list and Bonus Feats. Which, I know, is still a big deal, but nonetheless, it feels like a mix from the D&D 3.5 wizard instead of the Pathfinder Wizard. The School powers are what make one Wizard really stand out from the other; cutting these out cuts out a huge part of the Pathfinder Wizard's soul, in my analysis.
Bloodline: The idea of fusing a bloodline and school of magic is very cool in theory. The current options are very, very limited however; only being able to access a few of the sorcerer powers makes it feel mostly irrelevant to the character thematically or mechanically.
I'm reminded of the Crossblooded and Wildblooded archetypes for sorcerers, how they fuse the options and styles of multiple bloodlines very well.
Suggestions For Improvement: I suggest having Blood Focus retooled to instead be a tree of options between the School and Bloodline. Upon reaching X level and ever Y levels afterwards, I suggest have the arcanist get to choose between a sorcerer bloodline power or wizard school power and actually get those powers.
Along similar lines, I suggest having the Bloodline Arcana be given freely or be acquirable as part of the aforementioned options.
The Blood Focus pool can step in and take over for abilities that are not permanent, or dropped completely.
I suggest having the Bloodline feats mixed into the options for Arcanist Bonus Feats.
I would also like to see the bloodline's spells come into play somehow; perhaps the arcanist adds these to his spellbook for free, or can prepare them without the book entirely. That would show a very practical result of having innate arcane power and arcane training. That one's fairly minor though.
Overall: Arcanist has amazing potential, and some great spell options (both lists and otherwise). I would just like to see the School and Bloodlines have a greater impact upon the nature and character of the class. As of now, this feels like a gestalt sorcerer/wizard versus a new identity, ala Magus.
I know we're early in the playtest and that you guys have more in store. Keep up the good work and don't let the unsupported hate get you down.
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To Ernest Mueller, Soluzar, Lemmy, Psyren, Saidoro and everyone else predicting the end of the world - your arguments would be more persuasive if they were backed up by either of the following.
(most convincingly)
1. Playtest results. Tell us specifically how they ended the world in your game. What specific combination of available spells. What opportunity to reprepare. Tell us what level you were playing at, what your point buy was, what wealth was, what the party composition was, and what adventure you were running through. Were there other arcane casters? Were they overshadowed? Tell us how your group usually plays. Are you casual gamers? High level optimizers? Somewhere in-between the two? Be as highly detailed and specific as you possibly can. . Keep in mind that the game is not designed around high level optimization.(less convincingly)
2. Demonstrative examples of how an arcanist matches up against a wizard or sorcerer (as I provided) in terms of spells available and other options. Right now I haven't seen anything offered except supposition. I see no response to concrete examples even in the theoretical sense.Continuing to yell that they are broken based entirely on theory craft is not convincing to anyone and not productive in the conversation. At present the worst I can see is a slightly higher probably than a wizard of having a needed spell that the wizard only prepared once and already cast or the potential that a highly specific spell is needed and the arcanist knew exactly what it was going in compared to a sorcerer.
Both of these seem sort of like outside hedges, and neither seems likely to be game breaking on nearly the level suggested by some.
I wasn't "yelling" nor was I "predicting the end of the world" so I'll thank you not to be so high-horsedly dismissive of opinions contrary to yours.
As far as theorycraft, you'd have to be blind not to see how this obviates the sorcerer. Their sole disadvantage is slightly less ammunition; in exchange, their casting is tied to a much better overall stat (Int vs. Cha), they can effectively rotate their spells known every morning, and they can even access bloodline powers. Plus the caster level and DC boost from blood focus.
Compared to a well-played wizard, i.e. one that not only predicts what it needs to prepare but how much of each, I agree that it's about on par. The problem is that wizards in real games frequently make mistakes as far as what to ready and how much of it they need. This is one of the key factors that limits the wizard in practical terms, what I cheekily like to call the Vaarsuvius Doctrine. This class has the benefit of being much less affected by that - sure, they still have to know what to prepare, but they are freed from predicting how much they will need, removing a great deal of guesswork from the equation.
I think that, to compensate for these advantages, the class needs a slight nerf - and I do admit that perhaps my original was a bit drastic. 4/level/day should be sufficient. But I still think that as-is, it's too powerful - not because it can't be played in a balanced way in most campaigns, but because it makes the sorcerer second-rate in almost every way.
no no, i mean they can do both AT ONCE, or one after the other, in the same session. since they dont have the ability anymore after those rounds they activate it again later and choose the other as they want.
seems kinda unbalanced.
if they ARE stuck choosing one, the familiar-choice arcanist can change their familiar anytime they want, since it only lasts for two minutes at 20th level.
the bond one still gets a free spell 1/day (because there's a clause for per-day abilities still being limited), but could change the slot whenever they want--not that it matters much, since they cant do anything else with it (they cant upgrade it like a wizards arcane bond, since it only sticks around from 6 seconds to 2 minutes, which isnt NEARLY long enough to upgrade).
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it is nice for fluff though--the arcanist uses their blood to create little homunculi/golems that live for a bit and help, then crumble into dust.
makes a great in-character reason to take the craft construct feat later as an extension of it.
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The biggest turn-off is that the Arcanist seems to be devoid of flavor, i.e. it has no real identity like the Wizard and Sorcerer do.What some see as a blank sheet, others see as a canvas free of clutter, ready for painting upon.
I love the sorcerer bloodlines, and I love wizard school powers, but for some characters I have in mind, they're baggage that gets in the way of what I want to sculpt.
I agree completely.
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I love playing arcane casters. I will never play an 'arcanist'. Consider that in PFS the most frequent scenario is that you don't get to change your spell list so I'm left either hoping I get time to prep spells mid-day (iffy) or being less versatile than a sorcerer and with fewer spells per day. Seems bad.
it is nice for fluff though--the arcanist uses their blood to create little homunculi/golems that live for a bit and help, then crumble into dust.
makes a great in-character reason to take the craft construct feat later as an extension of it.
This is a neat idea. I like it.
I agree completely.
The biggest turn-off is that the Arcanist seems to be devoid of flavor, i.e. it has no real identity like the Wizard and Sorcerer do.What some see as a blank sheet, others see as a canvas free of clutter, ready for painting upon.
I love the sorcerer bloodlines, and I love wizard school powers, but for some characters I have in mind, they're baggage that gets in the way of what I want to sculpt.
How is this not true of ANY AND EVERY class feature?
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Suggestions For Improvement: I suggest having Blood Focus retooled to instead be a tree of options between the School and Bloodline. Upon reaching X level and ever Y levels afterwards, I suggest have the arcanist get to choose between a sorcerer bloodline power or wizard school power and actually get those powers.
Along similar lines, I suggest having the Bloodline Arcana be given freely or be acquirable as part of the aforementioned options.
The Blood Focus pool can step in and take over for abilities that are not permanent, or dropped completely.
I suggest having the Bloodline feats mixed into the options for Arcanist Bonus Feats.
I would also like to see the bloodline's spells come into play somehow; perhaps the arcanist adds these to his spellbook for free, or can prepare them without the book entirely. That would show a very practical result of having innate arcane power and arcane training. That one's fairly minor though.
I just want to second each and every one of these suggestions. You saved me the trouble of typing these up myself. :)
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As a GM I'd never approve of thatSo if a player's view of their character doesn't match up to yours, you'd ban it? Man, that's all kinds of not cool.
That'd be like me banning Wizards and Rogues at my table just because I personally don't like them and think Sorcerers and Alchemists do their job much better and with a flavor I prefer.
Well, that's kind of a big chunk of what a GM is for - controlling the flow of what's in the game and what isn't. For example, in our game we settled on a "core + APG, everything else has to come with GMs approval". So, yeah, if a player really wants to play an arcanist for the crunch that might be O.K, but it will require that we talk it over. And if the reason for wanting to play an arcanist is to match the kinds of fluff mentioned by the person I was replaying to, I'd just say, "look, as a group we are trying to stick to core + APG as much as possible, and the idea you have can very easily be a wizard".
EDIT: what I'm saying is that usually when a player wants to use a non core base class, it's because the character concept is something different enough from a base class to require a different mechanic. "I want to play a spellcaster focusing on potions!", fine, be an alchemist. "I want to a special agent working for a church!", fine, be an inquisitor. "I want to be a wizard who's a wizard!", then be a wizard and don't introduce a new class to the already cluttered game.
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Honestly, my main attraction to it is the combination of the flavor of "studied, scholarly mage with spellbook" with spontaneous casting. As a hater of prepared casting, this lets me play a wizard-like character without having to deal with the mechanics of a wizard.I tolerate Witch because the Hexes and such are cool enough to deal with the prepared casting, and ditto with Magus and its various abilities (also there's at least one archetype that turns Magus into a spont-caster out there somewhere, but I've never touched Wizard for exactly that reason). Arcanist gives me what I want as far as casting method, while keeping what I like about Wizard's flavor.
So now, when I have a concept for a scholarly, tome-surrounded, studious arcane caster that doesn't synch up with Sorcerer's unstudied innate skill, Witch's mysticism, or Magus's combat affinity, I have a class I can go to and still enjoy using without having to fall back on a class I dislike.
I agree with this. I love the idea of the Arcanists. I hate the spell slot system for both Preparation & Spontaneous casters. Spontaneous casters get "stuck" with spells for numerous levels. Preparation magic just doesn't make sense in the concept.
I am currently playing a Bard who just reached 8th level but I am now "stuck" with spells that never get used that I choose at lower levels. The party is far away from any major city so buying scrolls/wands is NOT an option. If every spontaneous caster chooses the same spells, then it makes the game feel like a video game - "oh look another Web spell..." No one ever chooses spells for "flavor". The Arcanist lets the player "spice up" their spells abit.
For the Blood Focus, how about using the Wilder concept with it where you can attempt to boost a spell with your "bloodline" but you stand a chance of it going wrong? When it goes wrong, then you can use the Fatigue status. Right now no one will ever use that last point.
OR
Make a separate Blood Focus for each bloodline that only those who have that bloodline can access...so the Undead Blood Focus could boost Necromancy spells....Celestial Blood Focus could boost something else.
As for the 3rd level Scribe Scroll feature...it should just be a bonus feat where you have the option of Eschew Materials, Metamagic feat, Spell Mastery, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus, a familiar/bonded item or one of your Blood Line feats. Arcane Discovery should be left as a Wizard only ability.
The School Focus should also be left as a Wizard only. Wizards get to keep their flavor with the School Focus. The Arcanist is more a dabbler in everything arcane.
The thing is Adam... would you like to suggest HOW it should progress along the path you have in mind? It's easy to knock something, what's your alternative?
I am excited to answer in place of Adam. So, no bloodline stuff and no bonus feats. Alternate ideas:
1.
Make all new bloodline/magic school surrogates. I would like to see some stuff that gives these mages a nice level-1 throwaway power so they are not as lame at level 1. Nothing fancy; just 1d6+something damage done one way or another a few times per day. And then some more powers later on. If you want everything to be powered by the same pool of points then that seems fine too. A boring solution (and potentially time consuming to design) but something tried and true.
2.
Some kind of magical transformationy thingy. Something like the alchemist's mutagen ability but more magical. The wizard-like knowledge allows the arcanist to draw out bizarre new abilities from her blood for a limited period of time. These could function like eidolon advancements and be applied directly to the caster to give each one a unique "arcane form". Different bloodlines can allow for different lists of "evolutions". Maybe some evolutions should explicitly be more "wizardy" and give a caster level bonus to a specific school. Perhaps the caster would have to give up some schools of magic or even all schools but one when in this form.
3. [doubles as silencing "too much versatility" haters]
Maybe you can reduce the number of spells that the arcanist can ready and instead give her a selection of powers that are powered by spells instead. Things as general as "elemental blasts" that do caster levels of d6 damage in some way(s) [a level one spell slot could give a touch attach capping in damage at 5d6 while higher spells slots allow for higher d6 caps and different area of effect options]. This is something like powered up witches Hex that consumes spell resources. Wanna take this pro-tier? Maybe each power can have a kind of "cantrip" functionality that is lame but can be used at will (or from a 3+int power pool)
The possibilities are endless with the power of imagination.
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Love this class!
Arcane caster for Dummies. First full Arcane caster I would love playing. :D
excaliburproxy: you mean the arcane blast and arcane shield feats?
i would definitely like to see a class that uses them (or has abilities to augment them, since otherwise theyre pretty lackluster).
excaliburproxy: you mean the arcane blast and arcane shield feats?
i would definitely like to see a class that uses them (or has abilities to augment them, since otherwise theyre pretty lackluster).
Precisely that kind of mechanic writ large. Preferably a mechanic that is better than the functionality of those feats and have more variety.
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So what can be done to address the power concerns.
1. No mid-session memorization, what you know is what you know.
2. I would lose the bloodline stuff. It isn't needed.
3. Similarly do we really need blood focus?
Does this mean I'm advocating removing all the stuff other than this being a wizard who can cast spontaneously.
Yes.
Because that is enough advantage over the other two.
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Personally I think you would have to be blind or possibly entirely ignorant of how sorcerers are effectively built to believe this. The Arcanist spells prepared table is extremely limiting. The Human FCB changed the game on Sorcerers giving them a major boost in the number of spells known, far more than the Arcanist has which has no apparent way to increase them. They also get the full benefit of their Bloodlines, Arcana clearly being the most effective.
First off, all of these new classes are likely going to get FCBs too.
Second, did you not realize that the Arcanist's "spells prepared" and the Sorc's "spells known" are exactly the same? The only time they aren't is when you start adding in peripherals like a favored class bonus specific to a particular race, and nothing indicates that the new classes will be left out of those too.
Except, the difference is that if the Sorc messes up and takes something that turns out not to be useful or loses its usefulness over time, he can only replace it when he levels up to a level that's a multiple of 4. Meanwhile the Arcanist can simply swap it out the next morning and not worry about it ever again. Arcanists can even prepare situational spells like Obscure Object and Water Breathing that would be wastes of space on a Sorcerer.
I sat down earlier to create a level 10 Arcanist for an online playtest and I got to the picking spells stage and just found it depressing comparing it to what an equivalent level 10 Wizard or Sorcerer was packing out of the gate. The Arcanist was faced with picking 5/4/3/2/1 spells. My sorcerer is running with 8/7/6/5/3 spells known at that same level and is casting off Int. That is a significant difference.
You need to check your math; Sorcerer 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells known Arcanist 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells prepared. Again, exactly the same - except if the Arcanist makes a junk choice he can drop it after one night of rest, instead of having to use the retraining rules or wait until 12. So why would anyone pick a sorcerer?
So what can be done to address the power concerns.
1. No mid-session memorization, what you know is what you know.
2. I would lose the bloodline stuff. It isn't needed.
3. Similarly do we really need blood focus?Does this mean I'm advocating removing all the stuff other than this being a wizard who can cast spontaneously.
Yes.
Because that is enough advantage over the other two.
Indeed, all of the impossible might of a wizard--at level ten--that can only ready 5 level-1 spells and the same level-5 spell three times. The world will tremble.
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Indeed, all of the impossible might of a wizard--at level ten--that can only ready 5 level-1 spells and the same level-5 spell three times. The world will tremble.So what can be done to address the power concerns.
1. No mid-session memorization, what you know is what you know.
2. I would lose the bloodline stuff. It isn't needed.
3. Similarly do we really need blood focus?Does this mean I'm advocating removing all the stuff other than this being a wizard who can cast spontaneously.
Yes.
Because that is enough advantage over the other two.
Just addressing concerns raised by others.
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Would anybody be interested in a mechanic that lets the arcanist *push* her body to get improved bonuses out of Blood Focus at the cost of HP or ability damage?
Also, I agree that a more solid and dedicated combination of bloodline/ schools would be an improvement as I think it would provide more flavor and give players a better "hook" for their characters.
Personally I think you would have to be blind or possibly entirely ignorant of how sorcerers are effectively built to believe this. The Arcanist spells prepared table is extremely limiting. The Human FCB changed the game on Sorcerers giving them a major boost in the number of spells known, far more than the Arcanist has which has no apparent way to increase them. They also get the full benefit of their Bloodlines, Arcana clearly being the most effective.First off, all of these new classes are likely going to get FCBs too.
Second, did you not realize that the Arcanist's "spells prepared" and the Sorc's "spells known" are exactly the same? The only time they aren't is when you start adding in peripherals like a favored class bonus specific to a particular race, and nothing indicates that the new classes will be left out of those too.
Except, the difference is that if the Sorc messes up and takes something that turns out not to be useful or loses its usefulness over time, he can only replace it when he levels up to a level that's a multiple of 4. Meanwhile the Arcanist can simply swap it out the next morning and not worry about it ever again. Arcanists can even prepare situational spells like Obscure Object and Water Breathing that would be wastes of space on a Sorcerer.
You need to check your math; Sorcerer 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells known Arcanist 10 = 9/5/4/3/2/1 = 24 spells prepared. Again, exactly the same - except if the Arcanist makes a junk choice he can drop it after one night of rest, instead of having to use...
I sat down earlier to create a level 10 Arcanist for an online playtest and I got to the picking spells stage and just found it depressing comparing it to what an equivalent level 10 Wizard or Sorcerer was packing out of the gate. The Arcanist was faced with picking 5/4/3/2/1 spells. My sorcerer is running with 8/7/6/5/3 spells known at that same level and is casting off Int. That is a significant difference.
Sorcerers also have their bloodline spells, and can cast more spells per day. Seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.
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The thing is Adam... would you like to suggest HOW it should progress along the path you have in mind? It's easy to knock something, what's your alternative?
Well, Lazar, that's fair. Here's a skeleton of the sort of thing I'd suggest. Obviously it'd need work. This is more a question of being cool and interesting than balance to me at the moment.
First off, scrub the whole "Special" column. No Blood Focus. No Scribe Scroll. No bonus feats. Cantrips can stay.
Spellbook and casting stay, but she no longer gets bloodline spells because she no longer has a bloodline.
At first level, the Arcanist gains
"Arcane Focus (Ex): While Wizards exhaustively study the eight schools of magic and Sorcerers follow their blood, Arcanists take hints from their magical heritage to direct their study. At 1st level, an Arcanist chooses a spell descriptor (such as Fire or Evil.) At 1st level and whenever she learns a new level of spells, she adds one Sorcerer/Wizard spell with the chosen descriptor to her spellbook of a level she can cast. She may choose to learn a Summon Monster spell in place of a spell of her descriptor."
[Note: The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, curse, darkness, death, disease, earth, electricity, emotion, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, pain, poison, shadow, sonic, and water.]
"Arcane Heritage (Su): At 1st level, the arcanist learns to harness the power of her magical heritage to push the boundaries of her magic. An Arcanist gets a number of Arcane points each day equal to 3 + her charisma modifier (minimum 1). She may expend Arcane points in the following ways.
- Expend an Arcane point as free action to add +1 to the caster level and save DC of a spell of with her Arcane Focus descriptor as she casts it.
- Expend an Arcane point as a free action to cast a cantrip from her spellbook, even if she hasn't prepared it.
- Expend an arcane point as a standard action to fire a ray at a target within 30 feet. This ray deals fire damage equal to 1d6+ your arcanist level. If your Arcane Focus descriptor is an Energy or Elemental type, this instead deals damage of that energy type or that elemental's associated energy type (for example, if your descriptor is Water or Cold, this ray does Cold damage)"
[Notes: Yes, charisma. Clerics have to deal with a Wis/Cha split and they're fine. Also, I know the ray there is better than sorcerer bloodline 1st tend to be, but those bloodline rays are very weak and quickly become something you never use, so I wanted this to scale a bit better]
Then, every two or three levels (lets say three. This IS a full caster after all), give
"Arcane Talent: At 3rd level, the Arcanist gains one Arcane Talent. She gains an additional talent for every 3 levels of Arcanist attained after 3rd level. An arcanist cannot select an individual talent more than once."
An then we get a talent list... Here's my sample list.
"Eldritch Heritage: Select one sorcerer bloodline. This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your arcanist level – 2. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."
"Improved Elemental Ray: When you use an Arcane Point to fire a ray, that ray deals an additional 1d6 points of damage of its energy type.”
“Preferred Spell: Choose a spell you know with your Arcane Focus descriptor. You may expend an arcane point and a spell of the same level or higher to spontaneously cast that spell. If the spell sacrificed was higher level, this spell is Heightened to that same level.You may take this Talent multiple times. Each time you do, choose a different spell.”
“Arcane Defense: You gain a +3 bonus on saving throws against spells with your Arcane Focus descriptor.”
“Countermastery: When you successfully identify a spell being cast that has your Arcane Focus descriptor, you may spend an arcane point as an immediate action to counterspell it by casting a spell with the same descriptor of the same level or higher. (It need not be the same spell)”
“Inherent Understanding: You may expend an Arcane Point before rolling a spellcraft check to gain a +5 insight bonus to that check.”
“Eldritch Heritage II: (Prerequisite: Eldritch heritage, level 6). You gain the 3rd-level power of the bloodline you selected with the Eldritch Heritage talent. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your arcanist level – 2. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
“Eldritch Heritage III: (Prerequisites: Eldritch Heritage, Eldritch heritage II, level 12), blah blah level 9 power blah blah”
“Spell Focus: You gain Spell Focus as a bonus feat.”
“Forceful Ray: When you use an Arcane Point to fire a ray, if that ray deals damage, you may make a free trip attempt or a free bull rush attempt against the target, using your Arcanist level as your BAB and your charisma modifier as your strength modifier.”
“Inherited Spell: Choose a spell from the Cleric or Druid spell list with your Arcane Focus descriptor. Add that spell to your spellbook and your spell list. You must spend an Arcane Point to cast that spell.”
“Amiable Heritage: You gain a +3 bonus on skill checks made to interact with, know about, or understand creatures who have your Arcane Focus descriptor as a subtype.”
“Family Bonds: Whenever you cast a Summon Monster spell with your Arcane Focus descriptor, you may spend an arcane point to reduce the casting time to a standard action.”
“Scribe Scroll: You gain scribe scroll as a bonus feat.”
The Capstone, School Supremacy, would stay the same, except work for Descriptor rather than school.
And then there’d be an “Extra Arcane Heritage” feat for +2 arcane points.
So, why did I focus on Descriptor rather than school here? Because of what makes a sorcerer and what makes a wizard and what would work between. Wizards study and learn and specialize in a school, much like a college major, where their focus is based on how things intrinsically ‘work.’ An Evoker understands how to make fire come and explode, but is less learned on the subject of fire elementals. Sorcerers are about Bloodline, they get powers innately and work with that, and they tend to be latched onto a theme. Bloodline Arcana often focuses on descriptors or subtypes, and I wanted to latch onto the idea that the Arcanist would still have a focus of study, but it wouldn’t quite be just “the bloodline” and it wouldn’t be the studied school. An Arcanist understands “I have Evil heritage from my demonic great great grandaddy”, and so he focuses on things that resonate with that (likely Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil] spells), but doesn’t really learn about conjuration as a whole, and he isn’t so demonic (without eldritch heritage) that he’ll just have claws or whatever.
The thing is Adam... would you like to suggest HOW it should progress along the path you have in mind? It's easy to knock something, what's your alternative?I am excited to answer in place of Adam. So, no bloodline stuff and no bonus feats. Alternate ideas:
1.
Make all new bloodline/magic school surrogates. I would like to see some stuff that gives these mages a nice level-1 throwaway power so they are not as lame at level 1. Nothing fancy; just 1d6+something damage done one way or another a few times per day. And then some more powers later on. If you want everything to be powered by the same pool of points then that seems fine too. A boring solution (and potentially time consuming to design) but something tried and true.2.
Some kind of magical transformationy thingy. Something like the alchemist's mutagen ability but more magical. The wizard-like knowledge allows the arcanist to draw out bizarre new abilities from her blood for a limited period of time. These could function like eidolon advancements and be applied directly to the caster to give each one a unique "arcane form". Different bloodlines can allow for different lists of "evolutions". Maybe some evolutions should explicitly be more "wizardy" and give a caster level bonus to a specific school. Perhaps the caster would have to give up some schools of magic or even all schools but one when in this form.3. [doubles as silencing "too much versatility" haters]
Maybe you can reduce the number of spells that the arcanist can ready and instead give her a selection of powers that are powered by spells instead. Things as general as "elemental blasts" that do caster levels of d6 damage in some way(s) [a level one spell slot could give a touch attach capping in damage at 5d6 while higher spells slots allow for higher d6 caps and different area of effect options]. This is something like powered up witches Hex that consumes spell resources. Wanna take this pro-tier? Maybe each power can have a kind of "cantrip"...
1 is an interesting idea, and I got mine done while you were posting. We want something that feels like both at the same time while being neither.
2 is actually a really cool idea, but compare to Bloodrager. Magical power that transforms you into a badass seems to be its bread and butter, though maybe a focus on more defensive/weird ones would work. While the bloodrager gets things like reach and wings, maybe the arcanist would get precognition, telekinetics, at-will energy blasts, a breath weapon... Really anything that Dragonfire Adept or Warlock would've gotten would work here... But I do worry that this is too similar to just having Sorcerer Bloodlines. They get claws and wings and such, too.
3 I'm actually a huge fan of. Give them a few spells but then give them things like the old Dragon Breath and Draconic Heritage feats that let you expend spells to do other interesting effects. I used to love Draconic Breath, because "turn any spell into 2d6 fire damage per spell level in a cone" really allowed me to ignore damage dealing spells and get more utility. If we put that in here in one form or another, well, I'd vote for it.
Would anybody be interested in a mechanic that lets the arcanist *push* her body to get improved bonuses out of Blood Focus at the cost of HP or ability damage?
Also, I agree that a more solid and dedicated combination of bloodline/ schools would be an improvement as I think it would provide more flavor and give players a better "hook" for their characters.
Maybe I am responding too much, but I do like that, maybe. It still does not really allow for any extra customization though. I think it would be interesting to cut down on the arcanist's pool of arcane points considerably but allow for the arcanist to gain one temporarily point by dealing 1d6 to 1d10 damage to themselves. Let's say that point would last for 10 minutes and in that time the 1d6 to 1d10 damage could not be healed in any way. Or maybe it can't be healed in any way for like an hour (to make it harder to abuse with a healy friend).
I am also not a fan of the lack of flavor for this class.
An idea I had to combine bloodline and schools is to tie each bloodline to a school or vice versa.
So basically an arcanist has a fey blood line and therefore studies focusing on enchantment and the prohibited schools could also be tied to the bloodline this way as well.
That way you don't get the elemental bloodline necromancer and it makes more thematic sense. If I have an undead bloodline and go to study magic, I am going to focus on necromancy as my main school.
The prohibited schools could be fully prohibited as well to counterbalance the added versatility of the arcanist (though you might have to increase their casting to compensate for this).
Regardless of the prohibited schools, i like the idea that focus schools and bloodlines should work together and make sense.
The thing is Adam... would you like to suggest HOW it should progress along the path you have in mind? It's easy to knock something, what's your alternative?Well, Lazar, that's fair. Here's a skeleton of the sort of thing I'd suggest. Obviously it'd need work. This is more a question of being cool and interesting than balance to me at the moment.
*Awesome Ideas!*
This actually Adam, looks like one of the best ideas ever! having them use subschools as a focus of study based on innate heritage is an awesome concept. Shout out to class's creator, Take a look at this and give this guy some credit in the books introduction because I think he just saved the class from dying of flavor-loss.
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"Arcane Focus (Ex): While Wizards exhaustively study the eight schools of magic and Sorcerers follow their blood, Arcanists take hints from their magical heritage to direct their study. At 1st level, an Arcanist chooses a spell descriptor (such as Fire or Evil.) At 1st level and whenever she learns a new level of spells, she adds one Sorcerer/Wizard spell with the chosen descriptor to her spellbook of a level she can cast. She may choose to learn a Summon Monster spell in place of a spell of her descriptor."
[Note: The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, curse, darkness, death, disease, earth, electricity, emotion, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, pain, poison, shadow, sonic, and water.]
I absolutely *adore* this. Descriptors would be an awesome thing to focus on. Exactly as you said later, conceptually they're kind of a mid-point between school and bloodline, and the really cool part is that they're already inherent in the magic system. Bravo!
would there be a way to pick up a second (or more) arcane focus choices at later levels? only a single descriptor could be much more restrictive than an entire school depending on your choice.
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ok I wanna to just say, I want to go back to the drawing board on the class flavor of this one. I think this class should be about looking at the nature of arcane magic, if the wizard knows the how, this class sees the why. Obviously i'm biased because I want a true wisdom based arcane caster. I also want different class abilities that have have an "arcane secret" flavoring. maybe something based on the old reserve spell feat mechanic from 3.5.
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Fun Fact: In 3.0 & 3.5 due to a misunderstaning of the rules this is how we played ALL of our spellcasters (Prep in the morning and cast in any combination all day), Cleric and Druid included (the latter two just never needed to prepare Cure or Summon Nature's Ally spells). It was a lot of fun to play that way and it's a lot less intimidating to new players.
Here's why: A new player prepares their spells for the day and then comes across a situation where they didn't prepare the "right" spell for the job, they feel stupider than their character (who with an intelligence of 18+ might have guessed their future needs). The Arcanist is a great "my first prepared caster", they might eventually graduate to Wizard (who is consistently firing at a higher power level).
would there be a way to pick up a second (or more) arcane focus choices at later levels? only a single descriptor could be much more restrictive than an entire school depending on your choice.
I don't see why not. let's add it to my Arcane Talent list.
"Additional Focus: Choose a spell descriptor other than your Arcane Focus. For the purposes of Arcanist class features, this descriptor also counts as your Arcane Focus. When you would learn a new spell of your Arcane Focus descriptor, you may instead learn a spell with this descriptor."
"Double Focus: (Prerequisite: Additional focus) If you cast a spell that shares both your Arcane Focus and Additional Focus descriptors (such as choosing Chaotic and Evil and using Summon Monster to summon a Succubus), increase the DC and Caster Level by 1."
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Would anybody be interested in a mechanic that lets the arcanist *push* her body to get improved bonuses out of Blood Focus at the cost of HP or ability damage?
Also, I agree that a more solid and dedicated combination of bloodline/ schools would be an improvement as I think it would provide more flavor and give players a better "hook" for their characters.
Maybe I am responding too much, but I do like that, maybe. It still does not really allow for any extra customization though. I think it would be interesting to cut down on the arcanist's pool of arcane points considerably but allow for the arcanist to gain one temporarily point by dealing 1d6 to 1d10 damage to themselves. Let's say that point would last for 10 minutes and in that time the 1d6 to 1d10 damage could not be healed in any way. Or maybe it can't be healed in any way for like an hour (to make it harder to abuse with a healy friend).
Thanks, it was just something i tossed out while I was at work but I think it fits well with an academic who sees potential in himself but lacks he personal intuition to get at it naturally.
maybe at higher levels she could use the essence of a creature that shares her bloodline (demon, elemental, fey creature) to jump start this process?
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I must say that I quite like mostly everything I've seen in ACG so far. However, the Arcanist just seems... Odd. It's not that it's bad or something, it's just that I feel that it needs a more work. A few points, if I might be so bold.
1) The basic fluff
As it stands, the Arcanist is sold as a character that didn't have enough "blood power" to become a Sorcerer. To make up for it, it mimicked the Wizard's path.
I can picture a few Arcanists' backstories being just like that. It is, however, a pity to imply that this is the "standard" way an Arcanist is to be created. An Arcanist could just as well be a person that discovered its blood power, but decided to take a scholarly approach to tapping it. Likewise, it could be a Wizard's apprentice that discovered there was power in his blood, but was too familiar with its master's ways to tap it wildly like a Sorcerer could.
In my humble opinion, a class's background description should be as evocative as possible. A larger "character design space" can lead to funnier, deeper and more varied stories and backstories. The current Arcanist fluff is too narrow, and too shallow. I think that, by showing that the Arcanist can be "a smart guy who wants to tap his blood's power systematically", "a methodical mind who can't wrap his head around the wildness of a Sorcerer's casting", or "a mage-apprentice that uses his latent powers as a shorthanded way to attain what his professors would want him to get with pure wit" just as well as "a person with just a little bit of power in his blood that has to research just how to tap it" will make more people more interested, and even excited, in trying it.
Again IMHO, I think that having a possible "underdog" backstory can be nice. Making it "default", much less so.
2) The spellcasting
Oh, the spellcasting... I have a feeling that this will be a constant topic when talking about this class... Anyways, I like that you guys wanted to find a middle ground between the Sorcerer and the Wizard here. The Wizard may be too fiddly and the Sorcerer, too limited to a few players. Trying to find a balance between the two is a good thing, and I feel there is space for this in the game. Trying to _balance_ that, however, can be quite hard... And I feel that you guys missed the mark a bit. =/ Let me tackle each topic at a time.
2a) Spells per day
I think that this is somewhat spot on. It's a compromise between the Wizard and the Sorcerer. I don't feel it encroaches on their territory, either: the Wizard can find ways around his lower limit, and the Sorcerer is spammy as always.
However, I can't stress this enough: short of bonus spells due to high attributes, I don't think this limit should _ever_ be increased, be it through archetypes, feats or what have you. The effects on the balance against the Wizard or the Sorcerer could be disastrous.
2b) Spells known and prepared
Ooooh, boy... Giving the Arcanist a potential list of spells known of "all of them" and the Sorcerer's base progression of spells known as spells prepared is curbstomping the "poor" Sorcerer... Putting things in perspective, while the Wizard and the Arcanist prepare their spells once every day, the Sorcerer "prepares" its spells _once_ (having the option to swap a "prepared" spell only once every couple of levels). I understand that, in reality, the Sorcerer will have one more spell per level due to bloodlines, but considering that there isn't a bloodline with only stellar spells, the versatility will outshine that small bonus quite handily. Also, "feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the Arcanist can prepare", so that's not even a hard cap.
I can understand the logic behind the current "spells prepared" progression, but I feel it was a bit shortsighted due to how it interacts with the Sorcerer. IMHO, the Arcanist should be able to prepare one less spell of every level than it can now, through all the levels. I do realize this would bring a few levels down to "0". That can be remedied by putting a "1" where a "0" would show, by leaving the "0" there and making the slot open only to metamagic-enhanced spells, by giving a score of "1" only if the character can cast bonus spells per day of that level, or by a combination of the latter two options.
Mind you, the current spell progression might not hugely impact regular, day-to-day gameplay. It makes an incredible difference when deciding what class to play, though. I won't say the current Arcanist obsoletes the Sorcerer completely. It does make it hard to justify playing as one if you want to focus only on the spells, though.
2c) Spell preparation
Eh, I have mixed feelings about the Arcanist needing a spellbook to prepare its spells.
On the one hand, I think that, studious as they are, their magic still stems from their blood. It would make sense for them to be able to commit all their spells (yes, even if it means all of them) to memory, and just meditate to "bring a few to the surface" (i.e.: prepare). Maybe they could need to study, but not necessarily a _spellbook_. Maybe they merely need to study their (or other's) annotations on how magic interacts with their blood (thought that fluff difference might amount to nothing at all mechanic-wise). Besides, the drawback of needing a spellbook (though I think that using that drawback is a very bad thing to pull on your players' Wizards, I won't dwell on it here) is very muted on an Arcanist. It can go for days on end without preparing a single spell: since an Arcanist's prepared spells are not consumed when cast, it doesn't need to change its loadout every sunrise!
On the other hand, this last reasoning is _precisely_ why I feel that the Arcanist is the perfect class to need a spellbook: losing it will severely limit your options, but won't turn you into a glorified Commoner. You can function perfectly as a toned-down Sorcerer!
Hmmm... Maybe Wizards should be eidetic by default and Arcanists should need spellbooks, while the Sorcerer laughs at their needs... Anyways, I digress. :)
Regarding open slots, I feel that Arcanists can be excessively dangerous if they can leave slots open to fill when the need arises. Maybe it's a good idea to force them to prepare all their spells at once?
2d) Metamagic
There is no way around it, IMHO: Arcanists, as they are now, are over the top regarding metamagic. They have what amounts to choosing the best of both worlds here.
Since their casting is closer to the Sorcerer's, why not give them only the Wizard's method of using metamagic? Being able to apply metamagic beforehand is very (VERY) interesting, I don't think they need the option of adding it on the fly too.
2e) Spellcasting stat
I feel that, to be true to the parent classes, spellcasting should be keyed off of both Int and Cha, and keying the spells' DC off of Cha would be a great way to pull that off. Besides, it just makes sense! Think with me for a moment: the Arcanist must study to tap his blood's powers. As such, it makes sense for him to need a high Int to cast high level spells. However, due to the very nature of his magical powers, the Arcanist should need to impose his presence on the universe, "to coax the magical energy out from its regular path", as it were. Hence, to make his spells stronger, he should need a high Charisma! I don't know about you, but I feel this fits perfectly.
Besides, this would have the arguably beneficial side-effect of making the class need more than just one attribute!
3) The "Blood Focus" ability
As it stands, I think that the Blood Focus ability is... Meh, at most. It doesn't further the objective of merging the parent classes at all, it just gives a minute bonus to one side or the other. Besides, getting fatigued if you use it up means that, effectively, you have one less use of the ability per day, on most days.
I suggest this change: the Arcanist's bloodline spells are (always) cast with a +1 bonus to CL and DC. It's simpler, cleaner and doesn't open way to weird interactions between the ability and bloodline powers. Besides, it's evocative, and IMHO, more interesting fluffwise: you focus your study on your blood, the same way a Wizard focuses on its school of choice. It's a "Spell Focus Plus", if only you could buy Spell Focus (bloodline spells), balanced by the fact that it's somewhat limited. (EDIT: or just do this!)
4) The "Scribe Scroll" bonus feat
This one is very, very bland. Besides, even though a scholar, I picture the Arcanist as a "scholar of his own blood". I don't picture them scribing scrolls by default.
I think it wouldn't hurt to give them access to their bloodlines' arcana here. It also makes sense that their access to it should be delayed when compared to a Sorcerer's: they had to research how to tap it.
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Whew, that was long-winded! This is pretty much all I've felt and thought when reading the class and making a few mock-up characters. I hope this post can be of use! I think that the class certainly has potential, both mechanics- and fluffwise, but I also think that it needs its rough edges smoothed. As it stands, it is a bit bland, and does cause a few balance concerns.
Regardless, good work so far guys!
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Seconding Adam's great post, but above all I like the Int/Cha split. If this guy is going to be a hybrid, make him one, and he found a good way to make it not be crippling/un-fun. All the spellcasting stuff can be based on Int, while the "Arcane Pool" points can come from Cha. So ideally this guy will be trying to max Int and squeeze in 14 Cha if he can - much like a Cleric.
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Larkas, for all the ideas I brought forth I didn't even touch the spellcasting method... But I think you're right. It has major issues and seems like it's just going to be too good in a lot of aspects.
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I would just like to point out that i truly respect Paizo for putting themselves through this. pathfinder fans are so extreme in all regards some like what you have created others think it over powered and then some think that you have not made them powerful enough.
also I rely like the way you have built this class for its core mechanic i see not reason to change that part of it and it is not too powerful or not powerful enough of all of these classes this is teh one that i think will be able to stand on its own as a class.
my issue is with the Blood line. i think you need to go like the bloodrager and design some new ones that are not as powerful as Sorcerer ones with several unique School powers to choose from rather than +1caster level & +1DC
...The thing is Adam... would you like to suggest HOW it should progress along the path you have in mind? It's easy to knock something, what's your alternative?I am excited to answer in place of Adam. So, no bloodline stuff and no bonus feats. Alternate ideas:
1.
Make all new bloodline/magic school surrogates. I would like to see some stuff that gives these mages a nice level-1 throwaway power so they are not as lame at level 1. Nothing fancy; just 1d6+something damage done one way or another a few times per day. And then some more powers later on. If you want everything to be powered by the same pool of points then that seems fine too. A boring solution (and potentially time consuming to design) but something tried and true.2.
Some kind of magical transformationy thingy. Something like the alchemist's mutagen ability but more magical. The wizard-like knowledge allows the arcanist to draw out bizarre new abilities from her blood for a limited period of time. These could function like eidolon advancements and be applied directly to the caster to give each one a unique "arcane form". Different bloodlines can allow for different lists of "evolutions". Maybe some evolutions should explicitly be more "wizardy" and give a caster level bonus to a specific school. Perhaps the caster would have to give up some schools of magic or even all schools but one when in this form.3. [doubles as silencing "too much versatility" haters]
Maybe you can reduce the number of spells that the arcanist can ready and instead give her a selection of powers that are powered by spells instead. Things as general as "elemental blasts" that do caster levels of d6 damage in some way(s) [a level one spell slot could give a touch attach capping in damage at 5d6 while higher spells slots allow for higher d6 caps and different area of effect options]. This is something like powered up witches Hex that consumes spell resources. Wanna take this pro-tier? Maybe each power
Hey thanks. I think your example build looks pretty good too. It is pretty much what I imagined the 1st method looking like but with more nuance and detail than what I had been thinking about.
I really liked those dragon breath feats too. I suspect that the pathfinder equivalent would need to be a tad more powerful, though. That can mean the sort of progression that I had been talking about or even something as simple as the damage output being 2d8 per spell level (though that would make the highest level use of the ability unusually powerful for the level you get it at and then unusually weak as you leveled up; I think that was a necessary evil of offering the ability as a feat rather than building it into a class or something).
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I find that as-is, the arcanist hurts the sorcerer--it gets most-if-not-all the goodies a sorcerer gets (albeit in an odd way through blood points), with a better spellcasting platform to boot. it's why i quite like adam's suggestion on the hybrid--it differentiates it from its parts without blowing either of them out of the water.
larkas' comments on the casiting system for it are also well-thought-out and make a good point.
i'd hate to see the sorcerer go the way of the rogue (and in some cases, the monk); completely overshadowed by it's alternates, and nothing will ever be done about it.
I guess I'll go ahead and throw in my few words.
I personally love casters and I think the idea is a wonderful blend of planned and spontaneous casting. I personally think the numbers in the spells per day and spells you can prepare need to me moved around a little, but all in all the spells are really cool. But my main issue is the blood focus.
The mechanics for it are honestly kind of boring. You have a limited amount of uses per day of an ability that is either a one shot or that is genuinely interesting, but can only be used for a certain amount of rounds. Becoming exhausted for using all of your blood focus is kind of silly too. In the entry for it, "She cannot remove the fatigued condition until she has at least one use of this ability available." This makes it seem like it is possible to regain the uses back, but nowhere in the description does it say that there is such a way to get them back.
At the very least give the class a little more flavor. The bloodline arcana or even the chosen school abilities would be fantastic. This just feels like a stripped down caster to me with a few bonus feats. I played in my first game with an Arcanist and used the ability maybe once because it just seemed useless to use one of my 3 (well 2 without taking penalties for the rest of the game).
I guess either add something else to the blood focus or increases the uses. Maybe even add your INT bonus to the uses per day or make a way to regain uses since we can't go over the amount of uses that ability would have normally.
Well, they do have access to every spell in the spellbook... all the wizard/sorcerer ones anyway. Learning all spells and inscribing them isn't so expensive that they couldn't afford literally every spell of every level they could cast. Wizards can, so can arcanists then.
I agree.
And they CAN spontaneously have exactly the right spell. In the best ways of both a Wizard and Sorc. They can prep it ahead of time, and then cast it however many times they need of it. Best of both.
This is false. They are not guaranteed to have the best spell. What they can do is keep casting the a spell that was a good choice for that day. The two are not synonymous, so don't pretend that they are.
First of all, you don't know why someone replies or doesn't reply. Maybe he has better things to do.
You are right I can't read mind, but if you give a person a reason to doubt you then you should not complain when they do so. As an example my post has not left you with a favorable impression of me. The same applies to the OP.
And second, what is OP isn't nearly as subjective as you seem to think everyone knows it is. (Again with the presupposing of unknowable knowledge of inner states of other minds) People can disagree about all kinds of things, there can be hundreds of opinions about how tall a building is, for example. But... it has an 'actual' height, that doesn't change simply because you think it should. If something is OP, even if you don't think it is... well, it still is.
This is a dumb statement.
1. The OP has no market corner on what is OP so I have every right to question him so I did.2.I said nothing that spoke of minds reading with regard to what may or may not be OP. Provide quotes or stop putting words in my mouth.
3. I never said people could not disagree. Obviously we are doing it right now.
4. As for your last sentence the opposite can also apply which goes back to what I said about OP being subjective. Some things are ok for some group for whatever reason, but not other groups, so like I said it is mostly subjective. The only time it can be said to be objective is if a high percentage groups have an issue with it. Note that I never said the arcanist was not OP, but I can say that it has not been proven to be OP.
PS: When you reply quote me if you want to accuse me of anything.