Lead Designer
|
This thread is for discussing the Arcanist. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Overall I really like the flavor here, and while I thought the mechanics were over the top when I first read them, having played around with a wizard, sorceress, and arcanist version of the same character a bit I kind of like the different feelings each has.
The sorceress has access to the largest number of different spells and largest number of spell slots at any given time, but can't change them out. She's the ultimate generalist.
The wizard has access to the next largest number of different spells and equal spell slots with the arcanist, but has to prepare spells they want multiple times, and spells they don't use are worthless.
Finally, the arcanist has access to the fewest different spells, but can change them out for a specific circumstance. I feel like an arcanist with detailed information of the enemies they are going to face (rare) could be pretty scary, but they have a much greater potential than a wizard or a sorcerer for getting caught with their pants down if they screw up.
I do feel like the current blood focus mechanic is overly sorcerer focused, and generally a little bit weak. It feels like a watered down but not really version of a bloodline, and I think it would work just as well if it simply granted the bloodline powers (but not arcana, skills, or spells) of a given bloodline flat out.
Question, does the Arcanist get the Arcana for their bloodline and the abilities for their school?
This isn't really feedback, as much as it is a question that could be answered by reading the Playtest Document, but I'll answer anyway.
The short answer is no. They get an ability that lets them duplicate bloodline powers for their bloodline a specific number of times per day (but no more than the bloodline normally grants access too). Always active powers activate for rounds per level. They cannot ever duplicate the 20th level bloodline power.
That same power (which draws on the same pool of uses) can let them power a 'school' spell - granting it +1 CL and +1 DC.
the arcanist uses bloodline powers in a significantly different way than sorcerers...
- how does blood focus ability function for powers that have durations measured in rounds (like the claws from abyssal or draconic, for example)?
- how does the dragon disciple's "blood of dragons" ability interact with an arcanists blood focus? does it grant the standard bloodline abilities as a sorcerer of your dragon disciple level, or does it somehow stack levels with blood focus? if the later, how does that work?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like what you did with this class.
My only significant concern on initial reading is that the integration of bloodline powers is a bit vague. I almost wish it was just left off, as you don't really need it for the class to be effective and it feels kind of like an afterthought.
This is a wizard that can cast like a sorcerer in a limited way in exchange for less spells. They don't need bloodline powers in addition, IMHO, and clearly the limits added are due to some concerned.
But overall I like it.
Is the Arcanist eligible for the archetypes of its respective classes?
I.e. Could you give an Arcanist the tattooed sorcerer archetype?
Is the Arcanist eligible for the archetypes of its respective classes?
I.e. Could you give an Arcanist the tattooed sorcerer archetype?
Are people just not reading the playtest document?
Seems pretty clearly not in the overwhelming majority of cases (including the example you use), since they don't actually have any of the necessary class features to trade out (in this case eschew materials, bloodline powers, and a 7th level bonus feat).
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Another "durr" question: Are Arcanists allowed to pick up Wizard Discoveries? Thanks.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it needs to be made clear if they count as a Prepared Caster, Spontaneous Caster or Both for meeting feat or Prestige class Prerequisites.
My initial impression is that they count as both but I think that's something that is going to need to be written down to avoid arguments.
Seems pretty clearly not in the overwhelming majority of cases (including the example you use), since they don't actually have any of the necessary class features to trade out (in this case eschew materials, bloodline powers, and a 7th level bonus feat).
While that particular example was a bad one, the question still remains but should be perhaps asked in a more general thread. (If there is a valid example, is it allowed?)
Is the Arcanist eligible for the archetypes of its respective classes?
I.e. Could you give an Arcanist the tattooed sorcerer archetype?
I would assume every class in the book will eventually have its own list of archetypes. Features don't match up neatly enough for most to be valid selections anyway.
This is one that I'd really need to see played in a full campaign to really judge properly, but on paper it looks pretty solid. Casting like a sorcerer with one less spell of each level feels like a good offset to the versatility, fatiguing yourself by emptying your pool is thematically wonderful even if I can't see it ever really coming up. It does seem like the sort of class which on entering the mix is going to replace either sorcerer or wizard as an appealing option for any given person, but only in the sense that it's a nice compromise between their favored option and the one they don't like. Personally, I'd be more inclined to play a sorcerer and just buy scrolls to fill the gaps than one of these most days, but I'd almost always take one over a wizard if I really felt I needed the extra versatility. I'm sure someone else would prefer not to give up their arcane bond most of the time, but would take this over a sorc to remove the pressure of making a permanent choice with their spell selection, and it has its own unique appeal.
I would suggest though getting a bit more verbose in explaining the benefits they get from their school and bloodline. Just a quick, "An arcanist does not gain access to the bonus spell slot or powers granted by a school as a wizard does, nor the bonus spells and feats a sorcerer receives from their bloodline," to avoid possible confusion.
Finally, the arcanist has access to the fewest different spells, but can change them out for a specific circumstance.
Actually, the arcanist spells prepared table is identical to the sorcerer spells known table, so even if they prep the same spells every day they're no worse in terms of raw spellcasting off than a sorcerer with 1 less spell per level per day.
Finally, the arcanist has access to the fewest different spells, but can change them out for a specific circumstance.Actually, the arcanist spells prepared table is identical to the sorcerer spells known table, so even if they prep the same spells every day they're no worse in terms of raw spellcasting off than a sorcerer with 1 less spell per level per day.
1. Bloodline spells.
2. Arcane bloodline powers.3. Human favorite class option.
Even discounting 2+3 every sorcerer will have more spells available (and honestly I haven't seen a non-gimmick sorcerer that wasn't human since the APG came out).
I would suggest though getting a bit more verbose in explaining the benefits they get from their school and bloodline. Just a quick, "An arcanist does not gain access to the bonus spell slot or powers granted by a school as a wizard does, nor the bonus spells and feats a sorcerer receives from their bloodline," to avoid possible confusion.
Ditto this. On my first reading, I thought the Arcanist was going to be the go-to blaster, with the Orc bloodline arcana, Admixture school power, AND the ability to boost CL. But when I read closer I realized that when it says to select a school and bloodline, it didn't mean you get the benefits of the specialization like a wizard or sorcerer; you're just choosing it for the Blood Focus ability it's about to tell you about.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While that particular example was a bad one, the question still remains but should be perhaps asked in a more general thread. (If there is a valid example, is it allowed?)Seems pretty clearly not in the overwhelming majority of cases (including the example you use), since they don't actually have any of the necessary class features to trade out (in this case eschew materials, bloodline powers, and a 7th level bonus feat).
I don't believe there is a single valid example for either the sorcerer or wizard.
1. Bloodline spells.
Arcanist gets these.
At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, an arcanist
learns an additional spell that’s derived from her bloodline,
automatically adding these spells to her spellbook
I don't believe there is a single valid example for either the sorcerer or wizard.
Hence "More general thread," because I can see other classes with valid options.
Surface read of the class I appreciate it. A spontaneous caster that's able to change day to day is fantastic and helps to break the vancian mold enough and yet still maintains some distance from the sorcerer.
My main issue is with the Blood Focus ability.
It seems a bit strange – especially as it’s linked to both a school and a bloodline. Bloodline is solidly a sorcerer shtick, and the intro to the class doesn't clearly show a link to blood.
It would be cooler to have a limited new set of things that are arcanist specific (ala Warpriest blessings).
The fatigued condition when you run out of uses per day is a straight punishment – neither of the linked classes have a similar restriction on their uses per day. I'd prefer to see that stripped off.
Actually, the arcanist spells prepared table is identical to the sorcerer spells known table, so even if they prep the same spells every day they're no worse in terms of raw spellcasting off than a sorcerer with 1 less spell per level per day.
They still have fewer spells per day than the sorcerer.
Speaking from a non-mechanical view I like how this spell casting works.
His Blood Focus to me feels a little empty as he has access to only one bloodline, yet has to use his focus points to gain his abilities (permanent ones are only temporary). his final power also while it may have a mechanical significance doesn't scream ultimate to me.
But enough about personal dislikes, onto the helpful hints.
I would do one of two things to improve this class,
A.I would remove his blood focus and just give him the bloodline, minus the bloodline arcana & the 20th level bloodline power which I would replace, along with school supremacy, with the wizard specialized school 20th level power.
-example: an Arcainist with the Illusion specialization gains the Extended Illusions power (only at 20th with full power, or growing over the levels).
B.Have him gain access to multiple (limited in number) bloodlines so that there are some selections available. Would still do the same 20th level power as option A.
there is my 2 cents on the Arcainist.
Finally, the arcanist has access to the fewest different spells, but can change them out for a specific circumstance.Actually, the arcanist spells prepared table is identical to the sorcerer spells known table, so even if they prep the same spells every day they're no worse in terms of raw spellcasting off than a sorcerer with 1 less spell per level per day.1. Bloodline spells.
2. Arcane bloodline powers.
3. Human favorite class option.Even discounting 2+3 every sorcerer will have more spells available (and honestly I haven't seen a non-gimmick sorcerer that wasn't human since the APG came out).
Well, we're not sure that the FCB will be the same for Arcanists. But what I think I'm seeing here is that the Arcanist has the same deal the Wizard gets with their spellbook. With the right resources, you could write new spells into your spellbook.
I saw some people wishing that sorcerers could access more spells lately. I guess this is the answer to that.
1. Bloodline spells.
Arcanist gets these.
At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, an arcanist
learns an additional spell that’s derived from her bloodline,
automatically adding these spells to her spellbook
[url=http://www.taylorclark.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/picard.jpg]Seriously?[url]
You are wrong within the context of the discussion.
Unlike a sorcerer, the arcanist does not get these as automatic spells known / prepared, which means a sorcerer will always have at least one additional spell per level of each spell level they can cast available as a result. They are added to the spellbook but the arcanist does not get essentially free spells prepared out of them, which is what we were discussing.
Actually, the arcanist spells prepared table is identical to the sorcerer spells known table, so even if they prep the same spells every day they're no worse in terms of raw spellcasting off than a sorcerer with 1 less spell per level per day.They still have fewer spells per day than the sorcerer.
And fewer spells known / prepared at any given time, because the sorcerer actually knows his bloodline spells, while the arcanist simply has them in his spellbook. Like I initially stated.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
[url=http://www.taylorclark.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/picard.jpg]Seriously?[url]You are wrong within the context of the discussion.
Unlike a sorcerer, the arcanist does not get these as automatic spells known / prepared, which means a sorcerer will always have at least one additional spell per level of each spell level they can cast available as a result. They are added to the spellbook but the arcanist does not get essentially free spells prepared out of them, which is what we were discussing.
Please keep the conversation civil, it was an honest mistake and using image macros to call me an idiot without needing to type it out is insulting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Please keep the conversation civil, it was an honest mistake and using image macros to call me an idiot without needing to type it out is insulting.
[url=http://www.taylorclark.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/picard.jpg]Seriously?[url]You are wrong within the context of the discussion.
Unlike a sorcerer, the arcanist does not get these as automatic spells known / prepared, which means a sorcerer will always have at least one additional spell per level of each spell level they can cast available as a result. They are added to the spellbook but the arcanist does not get essentially free spells prepared out of them, which is what we were discussing.
I apologize.
I'm a little frustrated that four people have now attempted to correct me - all of whom have been wrong. Taking the thirty seconds required to read someone's entire post rather than shooting off with the first thing that jumps to mind is not something that I think is too much to ask.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, did no one realize, during the design process here, that baseline Arcanist completely invalidates the baseline Wizard? I mean, archetypes notwithstanding here there is now 0% reason to play a Wizard ever, and Wizard is (sorry, was) the unrivaled pinnacle of power in 3.PF.
Wizards still get higher level spells faster than Arcanists.
I apologize.I'm a little frustrated that four people have now attempted to correct me - all of whom have been wrong. Taking the thirty seconds required to read someone's entire post rather than shooting off with the first thing that jumps to mind is not something that I think is too much to ask.
Your frustration is understandable. The fact is that I read the entire thing and still completely derped and misunderstood it.
This class's mechanics are going to take a while for all of us to get through, perhaps a little more than any of the other classes.
So, did no one realize, during the design process here, that baseline Arcanist completely invalidates the baseline Wizard? I mean, archetypes notwithstanding here there is now 0% reason to play a Wizard ever, and Wizard is (sorry, was) the unrivaled pinnacle of power in 3.PF.
I respectfully disagree, wizard school abilities and specialization still have a place for some builds and playstyles. I don't think the Arcanist invalidates those things.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah the Arcanist leaves no real reason to play a wizard. I feel there needs to be something more to differentiate the two.
So, did no one realize, during the design process here, that baseline Arcanist completely invalidates the baseline Wizard? I mean, archetypes notwithstanding here there is now 0% reason to play a Wizard ever, and Wizard is (sorry, was) the unrivaled pinnacle of power in 3.PF.
Well, you lack a familiar/bonded object (mm, that object any-spell-usage). You also lack arcane school abilities which were pretty major. And you gain spell levels a level later than a wizard.
Personally I'd probably rather play a Wizard. The +1 caster level & DC (&bloodline powers) is neat, but it's a lot to give up.
And fewer spells known / prepared at any given time, because the sorcerer actually knows his bloodline spells, while the arcanist simply has them in his spellbook. Like I initially stated.
Well, but then there's...
Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells
known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the
arcanist can prepare.
Since the bonus spells from bloodline "modify the number of spells known", it seems it would also increase the number of spells they can prepare.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm a little frustrated that four people have now attempted to correct me - all of whom have been wrong. Taking the thirty seconds required to read someone's entire post rather than shooting off with the first thing that jumps to mind is not something that I think is too much to ask.
I wasn't saying you were wrong. I was agreeing with you: I was saying there are ways the sorcerer's spellcasting is superior to the arcanist (and vice verse). Taking the time cuts both ways.
I think it needs to be made clear if they count as a Prepared Caster, Spontaneous Caster or Both for meeting feat or Prestige class Prerequisites.
My initial impression is that they count as both but I think that's something that is going to need to be written down to avoid arguments.
This. There are also entry requirements (somewhere) for 'spells in a spellbook' (or similar).
Each of these hybrid classes is going to need clarification of interaction with prestige class entry criteria and prestige class features. Also probably going to need a fair amount of clarification of interaction with feat/trait features.
Separate issue: prestige class 'spell caster advancement' - do prestige class levels benefit blood focus points?
So, did no one realize, during the design process here, that baseline Arcanist completely invalidates the baseline Wizard? I mean, archetypes notwithstanding here there is now 0% reason to play a Wizard ever, and Wizard is (sorry, was) the unrivaled pinnacle of power in 3.PF.
To repeat what some others have said, getting spells a level behind is a huge deal.
Wizards still get higher level spells faster than Arcanists.
This is not lost on me, but the difference between one level of spells and the level immediately above it is pretty small. 8th-level spellcasting throwing down with 9th-level casting is a pretty intense fight that neither person has a certified edge in.
So, did no one realize, during the design process here, that baseline Arcanist completely invalidates the baseline Wizard? I mean, archetypes notwithstanding here there is now 0% reason to play a Wizard ever, and Wizard is (sorry, was) the unrivaled pinnacle of power in 3.PF.
I don't think this is actually true in any way shape or form.
First of all, conceptually, I think there is a huge difference between a guy who studies really hard to unlock the secrets of reality (wizard), and someone who learns to overlay knowledge onto his raw power (arcanist). There are still plenty of people who will play both classes for that reason alone.
Mechanically, not only does the arcanist gain access to spells a level later, the arcanist also has access to an extremely small number of different spells each day compared to an optimized sorcerer or wizard. They bring the advantage of spontaneously casting those spells, but trade off a lot of potential options at any given time for that. I think all three classes are mechanically powerful and interesting, and each can shine in specific circumstances.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The spellcasting for this class is identical to the way DnD Next does spellcasting. Are you concerned about this?
Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Magister worked in similar ways in regards to memorize and use slots to cast so it isn't like it is a DnD Next only thing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wizards still get higher level spells faster than Arcanists.This is not lost on me, but the difference between one level of spells and the level immediately above it is pretty small. 8th-level spellcasting throwing down with 9th-level casting is a pretty intense fight that neither person has a certified edge in.
Yes, at 17th level (where wizards have wish but sorcerers/arcanists don't) the difference is fairly small, because its one level out of 17. But at 3rd and 5th level, a lot of sorcerer players are wishing they were wizards.
|
The spellcasting for this class is identical to the way DnD Next does spellcasting. Are you concerned about this?Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Magister worked in similar ways in regards to memorize and use slots to cast so it isn't like it is a DnD Next only thing.
True, but Cook was initially the lead designer of Next.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Obligatory lightning warrior remark:
It's balanced because it doesn't get a familiar.
/sarcasm
For real though: Not getting a specialization or a bonded item/critter does not equal unparalleled versatility in a sorcerer with the entire spell list at his disposal. If a wizard doesn't have to prep multiples of something and can drop metamagic like a DJ with the bass without having to prep it ahead of time? I'm sorry, but this is way OP. There isn't a way to combine these casting methods without breaking the game. Sorc is balanced because of it's limited spells (or so it's said) and wizard is balanced because someone said so (it's not).
Getting spells a level behind isn't as big a deal as you're thinking; sorcerer easily pegs Tier 2 and if well built could even approach Tier 1 in potency. Giving the hallmark versatility of the sorcerer and giving it to the wizard? You could strip away all of its class features and make it take a level in commoner and it will STILL out power any other class in the game.
I'm sorry, but I have to say that this is opening a big can of worms here.
My suggestion to you is to give wizards the bloodline abilities and remove the book; instead have the book basically be in the blood of the caster but he has to meditate and such to prep the spells. When recording new spells, he practices with it until he assimilates it within his own soul/blood spellbook.
-X
And fewer spells known / prepared at any given time, because the sorcerer actually knows his bloodline spells, while the arcanist simply has them in his spellbook. Like I initially stated.
Well, but then there's...
Since the bonus spells from bloodline "modify the number of spells known", it seems it would also increase the number of spells they can prepare.Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells
known by a spellcaster affect the number of spells the
arcanist can prepare.
That's an awfully curious type of reading friend that I don't think most people would come away with and that I don't think is what the designers intended. I'm pretty sure the intent of that clause is to work with things like the Extra Spell Knowledge feat, the Paragon Surge spell, and the arcane bloodline ability that grants extra spells known.
If arcanists gained their bloodline spells as bonus spells known I'm pretty sure it would be explicitly called out as spells known, rather than explicitly called out as spells added to the spellbook.
Your reading gets even more curious since arcanists don't actually get the bloodline class feature you are referring to. But congratulations on becoming number 5.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
This class is way too powerful. It's only significant disadvantage compared to a Wizard is getting the spells 1 level later. Not getting bonus spells from high Int scores really doesn't matter when you get scribe scrolls as a bonus feat and can easily afford stuff like pearls of power.
The Arcanist suffers from the same problem of Firearms. They gave it a very powerful mechanic and then had to come up with all sorts of contrived weaknesses to compensate, but, instead of making it all but completely useless to everyone but a single class, the "weaknesses"of the Arcanist don't come even close to balance the power of a full-casting Int-based spontaneous caster who is capable of learning all spells in her spell list. And, to top it all, the class also gets the ability to increase the caster level and DC of some of its spells!
This class is going to be a serious problem for game balance.
Make it more like a sorcerer, but Int based, with fewer spells per day (same number as a Wizard) and with a single vancian spell slot per spell level instead of Bloodline spells (that maybe increase to 2 vancian slots per spell level at some point). This vancian spell slot would be the equivalent to Wizards' specialized school spell slot.
Much more balanced and still keeps its flavor.
<EDITed because I misread a sentence in the book.>
Obligatory lightning warrior remark:
It's balanced because it doesn't get a familiar.
/sarcasm
For real though: Not getting a specialization or a bonded item/critter does not equal unparalleled versatility in a sorcerer with the entire spell list at his disposal. If a wizard doesn't have to prep multiples of something and can drop metamagic like a DJ with the bass without having to prep it ahead of time? I'm sorry, but this is way OP. There isn't a way to combine these casting methods without breaking the game. Sorc is balanced because of it's limited spells (or so it's said) and wizard is balanced because someone said so (it's not).
Getting spells a level behind isn't as big a deal as you're thinking; sorcerer easily pegs Tier 2 and if well built could even approach Tier 1 in potency. Giving the hallmark versatility of the sorcerer and giving it to the wizard? You could strip away all of its class features and make it take a level in commoner and it will STILL out power any other class in the game.
I'm sorry, but I have to say that this is opening a big can of worms here.
My suggestion to you is to give wizards the bloodline abilities and remove the book; instead have the book basically be in the blood of the caster but he has to meditate and such to prep the spells. When recording new spells, he practices with it until he assimilates it within his own soul/blood spellbook.
-X
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that your perceptions of balance are probably not in line with those of the designers and those of many members of the community. Neither they, nor I, nor many other people subscribe to the 'tier theory' that drives most of this commentary. Potential options in a vacuum have not, and likely will never become, a concern except in unusual games in which the GM does not drive the plot and the the PCs are guided only by a particular sort of self-serving game theory.
The assumptions within which Paizo designs typical center around adherence to a plot, typically on some sort of timeline, with leavers the GM can use to prevent things like the 5 minute work day. They tend to assume that divinations and utility magics are used within the context of their spell descriptions, and that on the whole players work together rather than in competition.
That said, feel free to continue to offer your view. I'm sure you''ll even get some support from it among the Char Op crowd.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
This invalidates both of its component classes and doesn't really fill any kind of given niche besides. Lacking in any real class abilities and having as its only flavour "my blood was too thin to be a sorcerer so now I'm trying to be a wizard" doesn't help.
Honestly, this is the only class in this playtest that I feel is completely unnecessary and would be better off not existing... having a 1/2 BAB no-armor divine caster would have been a better idea, in my opinion. You could even claim that it's a cleric/wizard hybrid, too!
