Actually it says you may take 10 on any selected skill. PERIOD. It then adds in the same sentence that the rogue may do this even under stress. That's the way its worded. Skill>Specific>general.
that certainly is one way of viewing it.
I originally thought that it didn't work that way at all. After listening to the arguments, I'm really on the fence as to which version is correct.
Now rogues are weak enough, I'd allow it as a GM, but it's worded poorly enough that I as a PC wouldn't expect it to work necessarily unless told it did by the GM.
It's one of those where the specific=talent, and I don't see that one is necessarily more specific then the other (or rather I see problems with either being correct).
So why isn't skill mastery worded like this?
"Unwavering Skill (Ex): You can always take 10 or 20 on class skills, even if threatened or in a hazardous situation. You can't use this ability with skill checks that don't normally allow you to take 10 or take 20."
If that is what it is suppose to do?
It's really hard to see the other interpretation as valid when there are abilities that say EXPLICITLY that idea in a sentence that is not in skill mastery.
So why isn't skill mastery worded like this?
"Unwavering Skill (Ex): You can always take 10 or 20 on class skills, even if threatened or in a hazardous situation. You can't use this ability with skill checks that don't normally allow you to take 10 or take 20."
If that is what it is suppose to do?
It's really hard to see the other interpretation as valid when there are abilities that say EXPLICITLY that idea in a sentence that is not in skill mastery.
That is in fact one of the reason I've moved from "doesn't work" to "hmm not sure".
Does one feats specific call out, prove that the other feat works?
I'm leaning towards it being an exception that proves a rule, but I don't see it as being 100% proven at this point.
So why isn't skill mastery worded like this?
"Unwavering Skill (Ex): You can always take 10 or 20 on class skills, even if threatened or in a hazardous situation. You can't use this ability with skill checks that don't normally allow you to take 10 or take 20."
If that is what it is suppose to do?
It's really hard to see the other interpretation as valid when there are abilities that say EXPLICITLY that idea in a sentence that is not in skill mastery.
That is in fact one of the reason I've moved from "doesn't work" to "hmm not sure".
Does one feats specific call out, prove that the other feat works?
I'm leaning towards it being an exception that proves a rule, but I don't see it as being 100% proven at this point.
For the other interpretation to work you also have to assume the skill rules are more specific than class abilities.
Skills being something every class has access to and skill mastery being something only available to rogues and ninjas.
So why isn't skill mastery worded like this?
"Unwavering Skill (Ex): You can always take 10 or 20 on class skills, even if threatened or in a hazardous situation. You can't use this ability with skill checks that don't normally allow you to take 10 or take 20."
If that is what it is suppose to do?
It's really hard to see the other interpretation as valid when there are abilities that say EXPLICITLY that idea in a sentence that is not in skill mastery.
That is in fact one of the reason I've moved from "doesn't work" to "hmm not sure".
Does one feats specific call out, prove that the other feat works?
I'm leaning towards it being an exception that proves a rule, but I don't see it as being 100% proven at this point.
For the other interpretation to work you also have to assume the skill rules are more specific than class abilities.
Skills being something every class has access to and skill mastery being something only available to rogues and ninjas.
The general part of the skill, no.
The special section of the skill, I'm unsure. I'd want to mule over the other skills and see if there's other precedent first.
Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not sure you're 100% right atm.
I'm leaning on no it doesn't work but it definitely isn't 100% decided either way.
Good breakdown, has precedents too. linky
I'm leaning on no it doesn't work but it definitely isn't 100% decided either way.
Good breakdown, has precedents too. linky
So why isn't skill mastery worded like this?
"Unwavering Skill (Ex): You can always take 10 or 20 on class skills, even if threatened or in a hazardous situation. You can't use this ability with skill checks that don't normally allow you to take 10 or take 20."
If that is what it is suppose to do?
It's really hard to see the other interpretation as valid when there are abilities that say EXPLICITLY that idea in a sentence that is not in skill mastery.
*I address other people's concerns, but I find mine usually go unanswered.*
*I address other people's concerns, but I find mine usually go unanswered.*I'm leaning on no it doesn't work but it definitely isn't 100% decided either way.
Good breakdown, has precedents too. linky
In fairness, I haven't addressed you're concerns because I'm still weighing them in my final determination of this talent.
I'm leaning on no it doesn't work but it definitely isn't 100% decided either way.
Good breakdown, has precedents too. linky
So why isn't skill mastery worded like this?
"Unwavering Skill (Ex): You can always take 10 or 20 on class skills, even if threatened or in a hazardous situation. You can't use this ability with skill checks that don't normally allow you to take 10 or take 20."
If that is what it is suppose to do?
It's really hard to see the other interpretation as valid when there are abilities that say EXPLICITLY that idea in a sentence that is not in skill mastery.
*I address other people's concerns, but I find mine usually go unanswered.*
Maybe since Skill Mastery is like 15 years old and even then people had misgivings on whether it applied to UMD or not.
I always assume it skill mastery works like all the time even for UMD because then it will be just like unwavering skill which is not as good. What make rogue's good should be because they got used to being under stress and still can pull it off. So they can use wand without fail and take skills without rolling one. For other class, they need to roll to use skill, if they roll, the might get 1s. And we all know 1s are deadly.
If we rule it out as it doesn't work, then I don't see rogue as a rogue anymore, even a bard would do better job and he is just a bard, he doesn't have to pull some magic tricks off so it doesn't blow his cover since he has magic. Rogue on the other hand has to. They will need lots of skills to disguise, to bluff, to sleight of hand, UMD and then sense motive to see if he got away. If we won't allow that to work, that's just not making sense.
I always assume it skill mastery works like all the time even for UMD because then it will be just like unwavering skill which is not as good. What make rogue's good should be because they got used to being under stress and still can pull it off. So they can use wand without fail and take skills without rolling one. For other class, they need to roll to use skill, if they roll, the might get 1s. And we all know 1s are deadly.
If we rule it out as it doesn't work, then I don't see rogue as a rogue anymore, even a bard would do better job and he is just a bard, he doesn't have to pull some magic tricks off so it doesn't blow his cover since he has magic. Rogue on the other hand has to. They will need lots of skills to disguise, to bluff, to sleight of hand, UMD and then sense motive to see if he got away. If we won't allow that to work, that's just not making sense.
1. 1s don't auto fail on skill checks.
2. A Rogue being so good at a skill as to be comparable to a mythic character even if it doesn't apply to UMD is still comparatively awesome. Just isn't awesome to us since Rogues are so lacking already. And skills are so...eh anyways.
3. A Bard/Alchemist already outperforms a Rogue so theres that.
4. If the game was made to be balanced I wouldn't be even considering UMD not applicable to Skill Mastery. Problem is, balance between the classes is actually not a point used for balance.
You're confusing an argument for RAI with an argument for RAW.
I must have... My bad. But I'm still sure being about to take 10 at level 10s is better than being able to take 10s at level 20 in many ways.
Also, no wording say Skill Mastery can't use UMD.
Maybe since Skill Mastery is like 15 years old and even then people had misgivings on whether it applied to UMD or not.
A good point. Anybody remebering the warlock and deceive item? It is like skill mastery with a pre-selected skill (UMD) and would make no sense if it would not override the you may never take ten part of UMD.
A good point. Anybody remebering the warlock and deceive item? It is like skill mastery with a pre-selected skill (UMD) and would make no sense if it would not override the you may never take ten part of UMD.
Maybe since Skill Mastery is like 15 years old and even then people had misgivings on whether it applied to UMD or not.
"Deceive Item (Ex): At 4th level and higher, a warlock has the ability to more easily commandeer magic items made for the use of other characters. When making a Use Magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened."
I haven't looked at this thread before because I thought it was a "how to make the Pathfinder Rogue 2.0 more useful" thread. I should have noticed the username.
Anyhow, since dipping's acceptable, I present Joren, which is the Rogue that I'm playing in my weekly game right now. He's mostly built for destroying large+ enemies, but he's still highly dangerous to medium sized ones as well. Feint what you can, and train the druid early that a summoned flanker doesn't have to do anything other than provide you with a flanker and SA dice will fall just fine.:
Fleet of Foot, Low Blow, Underfoot Halfling
Weapon Master (Kukri) 4 / Knife Master 16
Backstabber & Armor Expert traits
BAB1 TWF, Big Game Hunter
BAB2 Weapon Finesse
BAB3 Pirannha Strike
BAB4 Risky Striker (this feat is the reason for the four levels of fighter right at the start. As written, the progression is based entirely on what level you hit BAB 4 at.)
BAB4 Combat Expertise
BAB5 Weapon Training
BAB6 ITWF
BAB7 CT: Two Weapon Feint
BAB7 Weapon Specialization
BAB8 Minor Magic: Acid Orb
BAB9 Arcane Strike
BAB10 Major Magic: Reduce Person / Vanish (decide based on how much caster support you can get for reducing you to fight medium enemies that you can't flank)
BAB10 Improved Two Weapon Feint
BAB11 Bleeding Sneak Attack
BAB12 Flensing Strike
BAB13 Opportunist
BAB13 Critical Focus
BAB14 Finesse Rogue (retrain Weapon Finesse to GTWF)
BAB15 Blinding Crit
BAB16 Hard to Fool
I'm thinking catfolk scout with nimble striker and claw pounce can get really funny.
Unfortunately a catfolk ninja scout with nimble striker and claw pounce is just simply better with the ki attack option of a third full BAB claw attack. Immensely helped with a manuever master monk dip and a reliable method of enlarging.
Bumping this on request.
We never got very far with the google docs. But for those interested heres a link to the full collection of builds up to a point in the thread.
Thanks TarkXT. The first half of this thread actually has some interesting ideas; that document is a much less headache-inducing resource than digging through around 1500 hate posts to find the couple hundred bits of useful discussion was.
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I waded through the first 7 pages and saw some somewhat useful and interesting builds for rogues. I saw at least one person mention that Ninja can't be taken along with other Rogue archetypes, which is totally incorrect.
So my question is why hasn't anyone thought of making a Bleed build? Has no one even thought of this build?
Benefit: You can deal bludgeoning damage or slashing damage with your unarmed strikes—changing damage type is a free action. While using this style, once per round when you hit a single foe with two or more unarmed strikes, you can tear flesh. When you do, you deal 2d6 bleed damage with the attack.
Benefit: You can make an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent as a move action. While using Boar Style, whenever you tear an opponent's flesh, once per round at the start of that opponent's turn he takes 1d6 bleed damage. The bleed damage dealt while using Boar Style persist even if you later switch to a different style.
Ex): A ninja with this trick can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the ninja's sneak attack. Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleed damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleed damage bypasses any DR the creature might possess.
Probably the best way to go about this build is a 2 level dip in Master of Many Styles Monk and skip Boar Ferocity (MoMS can bypass requirements to get Boar Shred after getting Boar Style). You could still pickup Boar Ferocity if you wanted to deal piercing damage though.
The rest of the levels you'd take Scout archetype or Ninja/Scout for the easy access to SA.
Damage without Bludgeoner/Sap Master feat chain. Bleeding Attack's bleed damage doesn't stack with ITSELF but guess what, it does with Boar Shred's bleed.
Weap + stat mod + 5d6 + 5bleed +2d6bleed + 1d6bleed. With the 5 bleed and 1d6 bleed dmg continuing each round until they succeed a heal check to stop it.
You factor in the Sap Master feat chain and you're looking at something more like -
Weap + stat mod + 10d6 + 10bleed + 2d6bleed + 1d6bleed.
The issue with this build is finding ways to be useful against opponents that are immune to SA and Bleed though but I came up with this build idea and found it to be, imo, better than 95% of the builds suggested so far. Your thoughts?
Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect.
I.E,
Target takes 5 bleed. Your 1d6 rolls a 6 so you take that instead but then your 2d6 bleed rolls a 12 so you take that instead. Thus only 12 damage not 23.
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Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect.I.E,
Target takes 5 bleed. Your 1d6 rolls a 6 so you take that instead but then your 2d6 bleed rolls a 12 so you take that instead. Thus only 12 damage not 23.
I wasn't aware of that ruling but you're not entirely correct. The 2d6 bleed is dealt WITH the attack whereas the 1d6 from Boar Shred or the flat dmg of Bleeding Attack is dealt on the opponent's turn. So in conclusion Boar Shred and Bleeding Attack would not stack then. This frees us up from taking either 'Bleeding Attack' or 'Boar Shred'. Personally I'd go with Bleeding attack as it's a consistent number and if Sap Master'ing you're looking at an impressive 10 flat bleed per round on their turn.
So per a round (your turn and opponent's turn combined) you're dealing 2d6 bleed + 5 (or 10 if Sap Master feat chain).
I believe my proposed build is still superior to most listed as the rules you listed reduce the build's dmg output by 1d6 bleed but free up 1 feat or Ninja Talent to spend elsewhere.
Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage. When two or more bleed effects deal the same kind of damage, take the worse effect.I.E,
Target takes 5 bleed. Your 1d6 rolls a 6 so you take that instead but then your 2d6 bleed rolls a 12 so you take that instead. Thus only 12 damage not 23.
I wasn't aware of that ruling but you're not entirely correct. The 2d6 bleed is dealt WITH the attack whereas the 1d6 from Boar Shred or the flat dmg of Bleeding Attack is dealt on the opponent's turn. So in conclusion Boar Shred and Bleeding Attack would not stack then. This frees us up from taking either 'Bleeding Attack' or 'Boar Shred'. Personally I'd go with Bleeding attack as it's a consistent number and if Sap Master'ing you're looking at an impressive 10 flat bleed per round on their turn.
So per a round (your turn and opponent's turn combined) you're dealing 2d6 bleed + 5 (or 10 if Sap Master feat chain).
I believe my proposed build is still superior to most listed as the rules you listed reduce the build's dmg output by 1d6 bleed but free up 1 feat or Ninja Talent to spend elsewhere.
Really we'd need to see the whole thing before we even think about whether it's superior to anything.
Issues I can tell right off the bat are taking 3/4ths BAB and making it worse by multiclassing with another 3/4ths BAB class.
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I just dont understand the rogue hate.I understand it: people insist on making human rogues with high strength, low intelligence, low charisma, and moderate dexterity, then wonder why tackling the dragon head-on doesn't work.
Obviously it must be a problem with the class.
THIS times 100. The problem is frankly that the old Rogue guides all SUCK. The class is about sneaking around, being opportunistic and getting stabby.
Rogues are not a strength class. They are not a front-line class. They're supposed to be an opportunistic class that sets themselves up for a big round. If you're a level 5 Rogue and you set yourself up for it right you can get 3 attacks (improved two weapon fighting). If all three of those attacks hit you're looking at 9d6 just of sneak attack plus weapon damage.
I had a "friend" of a friend that overturned our table and childishly left after his Rogue got killed. Turns out this joker had an 18 STR rogue with 14 dexterity, 8 CON and dumped WIS altogether. Out of 4 sessions he had attempted exactly ONCE to hide.
Morale of the story? A lot of people have no clue how to play a Rogue. A Rogue is about three things:
-Stealth and sneaking
-Setting up opportunistic sneak attack strikes through either hiding, flanking or being invisible (or acting first)
-Clever uses of things such as poisons, rogue talents, items and so forthTL;DR: Rogues are about how you play them.
That said I emphatically agree that the Rogue has massive scaling issues with being able to hit at later levels and not keeping up with other martial damage.
Here's how I 'fix' Rogues in my home games (high level ones, at least)
1) Rogues get full BAB
2) Rogues can take these D&D 3.5 SA related feats: Craven feat (add Rogue lvl to sneak attack w/ minor penalty to FEAR saves), Telling Blow (crit = free sneak attack dmg) and Deadly Precision (level 5 pre-req, reroll nat 1s on SA rolls)Anyone complaining that rogues are too squishy doesn't...
you know, we've seen a lot of people come on to this particular thread and say almost verbatim what you've said multiple times. Funny thing is they never present a character that stands up to scrutiny. At the same time you kinda hedge your bets by admitting that you modify the rogue class anyway. So what is it? are rogues under-powered, or does everyone just do it wrong? If so, throw out a build that does it right.
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Str: 11
Dex: 19*
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 15*
1) Unarmed Fighter 1: Bab +1, Weapon Finesse (lvl 1), Boar Style (fighter bonus), IUS
2) Ninja/Scout 1: Bab +1, Sneak Attack 1d6
3) Ninja/Scout 2: Bab +2, Sap Adept (lvl 3), Vanishing Trick (ninja)
4) Ninja/Scout 3: Bab +3, Sneak Attack 2d6 , +1 Dex
5) Ninja/Scout 4: Bab +4, Sap Master (lvl 5), Bleeding Attack (ninja)
6) Ninja/Scout 5: Bab +4, Sneak Attack 3d6
7) Ninja/Scout 6: Bab +5, Spring Attack (lvl 7), Rogue Talent: Offensive Defense (ninja)
8) Ninja/Scout 7: Bab +6/+1, Sneak Attack 4d6, +1 Cha
9) Ninja/Scout 8: Bab +7/+2, Knockout Artist (lvl 9), Weapon Training: Unarmed Strike (ninja)
10) Ninja/Scout 9: Bab +7/+2, Sneak Attack 5d6
11) Ninja/Scout 10: Bab +8/+3, Death from Above (lvl 11), Invisible Blade (ninja)
*************
Doesn’t look like I can take Extra Rogue Talent as a Ninja to get an Advanced Ninja Trick. Nor do I see any feats that allow taking an Extra Ninja Trick. I added Death from Above as tactically using higher ground to strike gives a +5 to hit, instead of the normal +2 when charging. Charge is an automatic SA also since we’re using the Scout archetype also.
A few of the feats / tricks can be swapped. I just grabbed some ones that seemed useful for this build and what I figured would suite my style of play. Also, I think the 1 level dip in Unarmed Fighter is a good choice since it provides two free feats (style and Improved Unarmed Strike) while not losing any BAB.
Including a Belt of Dex +4, Headband of Ninjitsu, and +1 Brawling Silken Ceremonial Armor you’re looking at a static +6 to-hit, +6 dmg. The +2 Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes adds an extra +2 to-hit, +2 dmg twice a round on a single unarmed strike. Including the Halfling's size bonus to-hit and 24dex, that’s two hits per round with +9 to-hit, +8 dmg (+15 total including +7 dex mod with agile Amulet).
*************
To-hit at level 11 with 2 unarmed strikes per a round: +24, +19 if my math is correct. I don’t see any issues with hitting most opponents with this build + reasonably priced items as a 3/4 BAB Ninja/Scout.
EDIT: Lol, in my haste I forgot to include Death from Above. If you can get that to trigger on a charge you're looking at +29, +24 to-hit. :P
1d2 + 7 + 8 + 5d6 SA (or 10d6 nonlethal) + 5 bleed on their turn (or 10 bleed if you did nonlethal SA)
***unarmed strike + dex mod + item dmg bonuses + sneak attack + ninja trick: bleed attack***
If you have the ability to get multiple sneak attacks off per round you're looking at [average dmg of above attack x 2 + 2d6 bleed (boar style)]
*************
Am I missing anything here? What's the average calculated dmg per attack in 'Damage Output' section?
I'm guessing average would be 92 nonlethal dmg + 6 bleed added to my attack + 10 bleed on their turn IF I successfully hit my opponent twice. So thats...108dmg (92 of it non-lethal).
UPDATE: If the opponent is not immune to bleed dmg then setup a full attack with Vanishing Trick, deal 108dmg and retreat, and let them bleed 10dmg each turn until they succeed a heal check. You may not even need to strike a second time. :P
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there were quite a few builds posted that were more then adequate for most, if not all games.
38 pages of cyclical arguments, didn't disprove that the rogue has viable options. just make sure you don't play a rogue expecting it to be a fighter or a paladin.
you want a fighter or paladin then play that class. you want a trap smith skill monkey that has some oomph in combat without spells, play a rogue.
I just dont understand the rogue hate.I understand it: people insist on making human rogues with high strength, low intelligence, low charisma, and moderate dexterity, then wonder why tackling the dragon head-on doesn't work.
Obviously it must be a problem with the class.
THIS times 100. The problem is frankly that the old Rogue guides all SUCK. The class is about sneaking around, being opportunistic and getting stabby.
Rogues are not a strength class. They are not a front-line class. They're supposed to be an opportunistic class that sets themselves up for a big round. If you're a level 5 Rogue and you set yourself up for it right you can get 3 attacks (improved two weapon fighting). If all three of those attacks hit you're looking at 9d6 just of sneak attack plus weapon damage.
I had a "friend" of a friend that overturned our table and childishly left after his Rogue got killed. Turns out this joker had an 18 STR rogue with 14 dexterity, 8 CON and dumped WIS altogether. Out of 4 sessions he had attempted exactly ONCE to hide.
Morale of the story? A lot of people have no clue how to play a Rogue. A Rogue is about three things:
-Stealth and sneaking
-Setting up opportunistic sneak attack strikes through either hiding, flanking or being invisible (or acting first)
-Clever uses of things such as poisons, rogue talents, items and so forthTL;DR: Rogues are about how you play them.
That said I emphatically agree that the Rogue has massive scaling issues with being able to hit at later levels and not keeping up with other martial damage.
Here's how I 'fix' Rogues in my home games (high level ones, at least)
1) Rogues get full BAB
2) Rogues can take these D&D 3.5 SA related feats: Craven feat (add Rogue lvl to sneak attack w/ minor penalty to FEAR saves), Telling Blow (crit = free sneak attack dmg) and Deadly Precision (level 5 pre-req, reroll nat 1s on SA rolls)Anyone complaining
...
you know, we've seen a lot of people come on to this particular thread and say almost verbatim what you've said multiple times. Funny thing is they never present a character that stands up to scrutiny. At the same time you kinda hedge your bets by admitting that you modify the rogue class anyway. So what is it? are rogues under-powered, or does everyone just do it wrong? If so, throw out a build that does it right.
The rogue doesn't run int problem till high level play. We had rogue in RotRL, the rogue was great up till about last two books. Up to that point my Barbarian and the rogue were great together. The last two books the rogue kept dying or had to withdraw. The rogue could hold back and use UMD but then the I was left to deal with the melee and I was taking heavy damage going into the negatives quite often.
I love the rogue. They have some cool non combat rogue talents in the APG and UC that are just great. Problem is most games are more combat oriented where a rogue with those talents can't use them. Typically those skills get good use in an AP around book 3. They'd be of use earlier but you just don't have them yet till higher level.
I saw at least one person mention that Ninja can't be taken along with other Rogue archetypes, which is totally incorrect.
The Ninja is an alternate class.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.
So you can't take levels of Rogue and levels of Ninja, regardless of archetype.
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Saves, Ac? Damage is only one facet of a character build. How do you contribute outside of combat? Skills? Which ones do you have? How realistic is your play up till 11th level?
By full build I was kinda hoping for a character sheet.
So I'll take a look at what you've put down already.
At low levels, you contribute absolutely nothing to combat. Boar Style isn't functional till level 8. You rely on your party carrying you through combat till you can afford an Agile Amulet and dealing mediocre below par damage.
Your AC I can already tell is awful. 19 AC with the size bonus, Dex and Ceremonial Armor. Even if you already have your Offensive Defense AC bonus, your AC is severely underpar for an 11th level character. 24 is asking for things to kill you.
You spent about 80% of your GP on offense. You have 16,000 gold remaining. Without the mandatory Cloak of Resistance, your not great saves are going to hurt even more.
Your To-hit is +22/+17. +7(Dex)+2(Brawl)+2(Headband)+2(Bodywrap)+1(Size)+8(BAB)=22.
You may have double counted the Belt of Dex.
Against CR11 foes, the target AC is 25 so your hit percentages are 85% and 60%. Not bad. With the Invisibility and Flatfooted benefit these go up to 95% and 80%.
Your damage is okay, your to-hit is okay. Somewhat situational as things are cropping up with See Invisibility and other nasty qualities at this stage and Non-lethal gets completely shut down by constructs or undead but still a pretty good output.
Don't take any of this personally, just honest criticism. First and foremost, I would take a look at what you're going to be doing level 1-6.
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Saves, Ac? Damage is only one facet of a character build. How do you contribute outside of combat? Skills? Which ones do you have? How realistic is your play up till 11th level?
By full build I was kinda hoping for a character sheet.
So I'll take a look at what you've put down already.
At low levels, you contribute absolutely nothing to combat. Boar Style isn't functional till level 8. You rely on your party carrying you through combat till you can afford an Agile Amulet and dealing mediocre below par damage.
Your AC I can already tell is awful. 19 AC with the size bonus, Dex and Ceremonial Armor. Even if you already have your Offensive Defense AC bonus, your AC is severely underpar for an 11th level character. 24 is asking for things to kill you.
You spent about 80% of your GP on offense. You have 16,000 gold remaining. Without the mandatory Cloak of Resistance, your not great saves are going to hurt even more.
Your To-hit is +22/+17. +7(Dex)+2(Brawl)+2(Headband)+2(Bodywrap)+1(Size)+8(BAB)=22.
You may have double counted the Belt of Dex.Against CR11 foes, the target AC is 25 so your hit percentages are 85% and 60%. Not bad. With the Invisibility and Flatfooted benefit these go up to 95% and 80%.
Your damage is okay, your to-hit is okay. Somewhat situational as things are cropping up with See Invisibility and other nasty qualities at this stage and Non-lethal gets completely shut down by constructs or undead but still a pretty good output.
Don't take any of this personally, just honest criticism. First and foremost, I would take a look at what you're going to be doing level 1-6.
Well I provided a build. The AC, Saves, and Skill Points can be spent how you see fit. You could lower one of the enchantment bonuses on one of the items I listed or remove one of the items completely if you need more gold.
You could buy a mithral +1 chain shirt, that's +11 ac. You did overlook Offensive Defense though, which is +10 ac when Sneak Attacking with non-lethal damage. 32 AC (+1size add) isn't horrible. You also have Spring Attack to move in, deal damage, and move out (and then swift action Vanishing Trick if needed) which should get you out of harms way from a full-attack. A Rogue/Ninja shouldn't be hanging around in the frontlines IMO if he can help it and if need be you could swap a few feats around to be more defensive.
Also, should be noted that buying a wand of Mirror Image goes a long ways in adding to one's defense. Plenty of other wands out there that can also help to up defense some more.
You're right, I did count the +4dex belt twice. Thanks for catching that. I forgot to add the +1 to-hit from Weapon Training at lvl 9 though. I know it prevents me from getting multiple attacks off but Death from Above (which shouldn't be too hard since you can choose when to engage as a Rogue) adds a +5 to-hit. So that would be a +28 to-hit if making use of that feat properly. (22 + 1 from weapon training + 5 from Death from Above)
I know both of these hinge on the opponent not being immune to non-lethal damage but Sap adept adds twice the number of sneak attack dice rolled to dmg (+20) and Knockout Artist adds 1dmg per sneak attack dice rolled (+10). That's an additional +30 nonlethal damage per nonlethal sneak attack that I forgot to factor in previously.
I play PFS so for others it may be a little different. For the first level play with STR as main stat and then retrain before you play your first game at level 2. Crossbow would be the go-to weapon until you get the amulet. No dmg penalty due to low STR and your to-hit should be pretty decent even though you're lacking the ranged feats. First item to get would be the Agile +0 Amulet of Mighty Fists.
You'd be relying on a crossbow till around level 3-4 I believe, which you could buy the Amulet then. Once you hit 5th level a lot of your power should come "online". Prior to that you're still a skill monkey that's contributing outside of combat and being the social face of the party.
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I saw at least one person mention that Ninja can't be taken along with other Rogue archetypes, which is totally incorrect.The Ninja is an alternate class.
An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa.So you can't take levels of Rogue and levels of Ninja, regardless of archetype.
I think you're misunderstanding the rules Redward. An alternate class can never take a level in its associated class. As a Ninja I'm not allowed to take a level in base Rogue to pickup Evasion and etc that the Ninja has swapped out. This makes perfect sense.
Also note that it's stating (according to that rule) that the Ninja is an alternate class and is ASSOCIATED to the Rogue class. As a rule, Archetypes are allowed to be picked up as long as it swaps stuff that the Base class learns.
So in that case the Valid Archetypes for Ninja are: Bandit, Burglar, Sanctified Rogue, Scout, Trapsmith. All other archetypes are not allowed to be taken as a Ninja.
Hope this helps you understand the wording better. Knowledge is power.
EDIT: In other words, without that ruling you could be a level 8 Ninja and take a 2 level dip into Rogue to mitigate the drawbacks of a Ninja (acquiring Trapfinding and Evasion while still increasing your Sneak Attack dmg and receiving a Rogue Talent that could be used to pickup a Ninja Trick.)
I think you're misunderstanding the rules Redward. An alternate class can never take a level in its associated class. As a Ninja I'm not allowed to take a level in base Rogue to pickup Evasion and etc that the Ninja has swapped out. This makes perfect sense.
I misunderstood; I thought you were trying to multiclasss Rogue Scout and Ninja. Ignore me!
I'm quite glad this thread has been necro'd, reading around there are a couple of possibilities I think might be interesting.
Half-Orcs have mostly been mentioned as Power-Attacking, Falchion-wielding Intimidate monsters. With the Sacred Tattoo alternate racial and Fate's Favored Trait they can get a +2 luck bonus to all saves from level 1 (and stacks with Iron Will), shoring up one of the Rogue's Achilles' heels. This alone makes them pretty strong for any Rogue build. Admittedly any class can get a benefit from this, but with only one strong save Rogues probably benefit more. You also get Darkvision, weapon proficiencies etc as gravy. The combination of Save bonuses and Darkvision is probably strongest in lower level games, before equipment can be acquired to duplicate them.
A second "anyone can get it, but Rogues may benefit more" path was mentioned a few pages ago. Nature Soul -> Animal Ally -> Boon Companion gives access to a full-progression Animal Companion. It doesn't completely guarantee Sneak Attacks, but having a flanking buddy you can direct as a free action & who can do decent damage themself is pretty useful. It's less feat intensive than Moonlight Stalker Feint and doesn't forgo your first mainhand attack like Improved Two-Weapon Feint.
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I'm quite glad this thread has been necro'd, reading around there are a couple of possibilities I think might be interesting.
Half-Orcs have mostly been mentioned as Power-Attacking, Falchion-wielding Intimidate monsters. With the Sacred Tattoo alternate racial and Fate's Favored Trait they can get a +2 luck bonus to all saves from level 1 (and stacks with Iron Will), shoring up one of the Rogue's Achilles' heels. This alone makes them pretty strong for any Rogue build. Admittedly any class can get a benefit from this, but with only one strong save Rogues probably benefit more. You also get Darkvision, weapon proficiencies etc as gravy. The combination of Save bonuses and Darkvision is probably strongest in lower level games, before equipment can be acquired to duplicate them.
A second "anyone can get it, but Rogues may benefit more" path was mentioned a few pages ago. Nature Soul -> Animal Ally -> Boon Companion gives access to a full-progression Animal Companion. It doesn't completely guarantee Sneak Attacks, but having a flanking buddy you can direct as a free action & who can do decent damage themself is pretty useful. It's less feat intensive than Moonlight Stalker Feint and doesn't forgo your first mainhand attack like Improved Two-Weapon Feint.
I do agree, Animal Companions can be pretty helpful for flanking and extra damage output.
I think the Carnivalist Rogue archetype is overlooked a bit. With that archetype the familiar also gains Sneak Attack equal to the Rogue's. You lose out on lvl 2, 4, and 6 Rogue Talents though. You gain a few performances though.
Or if you wanted to be multiclass Barbarian you could pickup the Mad Dog archetype.
Both of those archetypes are found in Animal Archive and PFS legal.
Bumping this on request.
We never got very far with the google docs. But for those interested heres a link to the full collection of builds up to a point in the thread.
Just reminding people looking for builds that I posted this. So you can skip a lot of the pointless back and forth.
I can't find any reference to the new Advanced Class Guide out there, and there may be some advantage for Rogues in dipping. The new Swashbuckler class doesn't have Rogue as an alternate class, so multiclassing is allowed.
A 3-level dip may reap a few rewards:
Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat
Full BAB & d10 HD
+1 dodge bonus to AC
+2 initiative bonus as long as the Swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point
Access to "Menacing Swordplay - At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache, when a swashbuckler hits an opponent with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon, she can choose to use Intimidate to demoralize that opponent (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 99) as a swift action instead of a standard action." - Could synergise with Intimidate/Shatter defenses builds
Charisma bonus to saves x3/day
The Brawler, a fighter/monk type, may also be an interesting dip for Sap Adept builds, as it grants Improved Unarmed Strike, Brawler's Flurry (can use Trip, Sunder and Disarm as part of a full attack). I'm not fully convinced of the benefit of it over a Maneuver Master or similar though.
Both of the examples above are just me glancing through the ACG playtest. I'm sure someone else can optimize a nasty build out of the stuff in there.
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3 level dip and you're missing out on 10th and 12th level Advanced Rogue Talents (or Advanced Ninja Tricks).
Even a 2 level dip and you're looking at not being able to select any Advanced Talents/Tricks throughout your entire PFS career. If you don't play PFS then this isn't as much of an issue though.
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Battlefield Control (whip) Rogue: Fleshed out version of an earlier post I was asked to expand and show level by level.
Uses a combination of reach from the whip, combat reflexes, and high dexterity to increase attacks per round all at his highest attack bonus. Usually averages more attacks per round than TWF, without the -2 to hit. (Hard to quantify) Really comes together when he gets access to Shatter Defenses at 8th level to sneak attack demoralized opponents.
Half-Orc (City Raised) Rogue (Scout, Thug) 12
Lawful Neutral Humanoid (Human, Orc); Deity: Torag
STRENGTH 11, DEXTERITY 20/24, CONSTITUTION 14/16, INTELLIGENCE 10, WISDOM 10, CHARISMA 14/16
Fort +11, Reflex +19, WILL +8, AC 29, Init +8, HP 111
CMB +9, CMD 26, Perf Combat +5
+1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip S, Disarm, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip, +18/+13, 1d3+8 (+6d6 SA, Avg dmg: 31) Up to 10 attacks per round.
Acrobatics +22, Bluff +10, Diplomacy +10, Disable Device +24, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +22, Intimidate +29(39 when using Skill mastery), Perception +20, Sleight of Hand +11, Stealth +22, Use Magic Device +21
Traits: Defensive Strategist (Torag), Armor Expert
Feats, Abilities:
1 BAB0 Enforcer(free intimidate when non-lethal damage is dealt), Frightening, SA+1d6
2 BAB1 Weapon Trick (Whip) Rogue talent, Evasion
3 BAB2 Whip Mastery, Brutal Beating (Sickened 1rnd/2lvls), SA+2d6
4 BAB3 Finesse Rogue talent, Scout’s Charge
5 BAB3 Dazzling Display (Whip), SA+3d6
6 BAB4 Offensive Defense Rogue talent
7 BAB5 Improved Whip Mastery, SA+4d6
8 BAB6 Shatter Defenses (Whip), Combat trick Rogue talent, Skirmisher
9 BAB6 Combat Reflexes (8 AoO/round), SA+5d6
10 BAB7 Entanglement of Blades Advanced Rogue talent
11 BAB8 Skill Focus: intimidate, SA+6d6
12 BAB9 Skill Mastery: Acrobatics, Intimidate, Use Magic Device
Special Abilities: Darkvision (60 feet), Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Gear: +1 Agile, Ghost touch Whip,+1 Shortbow, 50 cold iron arrows, +1 Heavy Darkwood Shield, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Celestial armor, Circlet of persuasion , Hag's shabble, Handy haversack, Headband of alluring charisma +2, Ioun stone (clear spindle) <In: Wayfinder, Ioun stone (pink rhomboid), Rogue's kit, Smoke pellet x5 <In: Wrist sheath, spring loaded, Smoke pellet, smog , Thieves' tools, masterwork, Wand of enlarge person <In: Wrist sheath, spring loaded, Cloak of Resistance +4, Eyes of the Eagle, Ioun Stone(Dusty Rose Prism), Traveler’s Any Tool, Rogue’s Kit, Dagger, 935gp
How to use:
Before fight, (you scouted first, right) Enlarge person wand to increase reach to 15’ if large group. Gladly accept buffs from the casters you will be protecting.
On the rare occasion that your opponent goes first, they still have to get past your reach. As they charge in, use your AoO’s to make them shaken or frightened and set up for sneak attacks.
Surprise round: buff or charge, your choice
Round 1: Choose: buff yourself (while keeping the fighter’s charge lane clear), delay for the fighter, ready vs. approach, move in to attack (single opponent), or dazzling display (multiple opponents).
Round 2: Get into position where you can reach multiple opponents if you haven't already. Back to back with the fighter works exceptionally well. Simultaneously, protect the casters by shutting down movement in a 25’-35’ wide circle.
At this point, opponents should be shaken and sickened, -4 to all d20 rolls -2 damage, and unable to move even a 5’ step without drawing an AoO that deals SA damage. AC goes up +6 for an effective total of +10AC (38AC). Keep moving to force them to move. Laugh maniacally as you and your besty the fighter mop them up. Use the money palmed from the corpses to buy the fighter beer while the inquisitor and the bard recharge their dailys.
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Im currently taking a break on my "possibly" upcoming rogue guide. However it currently includes a HD 20 straight rogue who have an average damage output of over 900 damage each round (ranged). And an AC of around 100 and CMD of around 100.
However it's important to understand that all builds reach their peaks at different levels.
Might be finished before June, and will include feat chains, races and trait selections. Magical items and possible creative new paths to the entirely new World of Rogues.
Overall, it will be a collection of all data about Rogues.
- Stay tuned :)
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The only legal way to fix rogues would be for Paizo to release a book with about 20 amazing rogue talents.
The only legal way to fix rogues would be for Paizo to release a book with about 20 amazing rogue talents.Sounds good for an Archeologist Bard!
And also the only legal way Paizo can buff Rogues.
Arch. Bardes get significantly less rogue talents, so it is less of a buff. Also if the talents modify rogue class features or require x sneak attack die the bard cant take them.
Inne combat came out recently, and there are "stunt" rogue talents, this is, rogue talents that are tied to skills. I have not read all of them, but they suck.
The only legal way to fix rogues would be for Paizo to release a book with about 20 amazing rogue talents.
And archetypes. But they woudl not do it because that woudl be powercreep and htey do not publish powercreep for rogues, just for almost everyone else.