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256 posts. Alias of willhob.


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Sovereign Court

So I am starting PFS Core. I want to exploit a recent PFS blog entry entitled "Learning Exotic Spells".

Goal: Learn wizard spells from ACG, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, APG, ISWG, etc. al.

How: Assemble a list of modules with enemy wizards, magus or arcanists in them, so that we can collectively play them in order to learn non-core spells in PFS core.

Result: Wizards are, once again, the undisputed God class that makes DMs from Gencon to PFS Core tables cry bitterly into their screens, because we have found a way to lose absolutely nothing in PFS Core, save a few petty archetypes and sub-schools.

So I propose that we assemble a list of such modules that have scrolls, NPC wizards (and more importantly, their spellbooks) and profit.

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PFS Core question:

Quote the guide: >If an item appears on a Chronicle sheet, a PC may purchase and use it regardless of the book it comes from

Does this mean Wizards can transcribe spells into their spellbooks, even if they don't come from the CRB, as long as the scroll is on a Chronicle sheet?

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RAW, I can't find where it says it does.

Mythic Smite (Su)

As a free action, you can expend one use of mythic power to regain one use of your smite evil ability. For the rest of your turn, your successful attacks against evil creatures bypass all damage reduction. You must have the smite evil class feature to select this ability.

Is it only for the rest of your turn? Does this ability seriously not give Paladins the ability to overcome DR/epic?

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Pendagast wrote:
you can full attack while mounted too…since you aren't the one moving.

This got FAQ'd.

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack. Even at your mount's full speed, you don't take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

wraithstrike wrote:

There intent is that you are not to move(not counting 5 foot steps) via the move action and full attack. The spell allows you to move under the power of the spell, and since the spell itself, due to the magus class features, is part of the full round attack, there is nothing to stop the other attacks once the magus arrives at his location.

When the CRB was made this spell did not exist just like certain rules are not repeated for new classes. The spellbook rules as an example specifically call out wizards. Would you deny using them for a future class that also had a spellbook?

2nd part is a strawman. Magus and similar classes state their spellbook functions as a wizards. Anyways...

It does not say move action, but rather movement. That is because you can move through other means such as combat maneuvers, spells, mounts and so forth. As noted above, you cannot use a mount and just automagically get a full attack.

RageLancePounce, as described originally, does not work anymore due to the rule changes. But it still gets you a nice damage boost on one attack which could theoretically stack with Vital Strike + Imp Vital Strike etc.

Nothing stops the full attacks. My argument was that the RAI of Bladed Dash was not to be used with Spell Combat, since its a full attack. Game devs already weighed in and said that was their intention. Far as I can tell,this is the only sanctioned way to move and get a full attack without actually having the Pounce ability itself.

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It is not mantra, it is stated in the rules for a full attack. Devs say that Bladed Dash lets you move during a Full Attack. As far as I am aware it is the only mechanic that actually allows movement during a full attack.

Full Attack per SRD stated nothing about a move action

SRD wrote:

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

Movement is movement. Hence the confusion. Move actions !== movement.

The comparison to Dimensional Assault is being made for a few reasons.

-It requires a feat chain, whereas Bladed Dash requires none
-Dimensional Assault does not allow a full attack action (whereas Bladed Dash with Spell Combat does)
-Dimension Door doesn't allow actions after the attack, whereas Bladed Dash apparently allows you a free attack as part of the spell and a full attack action
-The FAQ stated that Spell Combat was a full attack action, rather than the original text of the rulebook that stated full-round action. Parsing or not, there are rules differences to be had between a full-round action and a full attack action.

Personally I feel that this spell trivializes the feat chain for Dimensional Assault, which was already pretty bad to begin with. While not game breaking, I think the real take-away from this thread is that the game developers always intended for Bladed Dash to function as a pounce ability for Magus, but not for it to be combined with Spellstrike.

wraithstrike wrote:
The problem is that you are not bringing any proof to the table, and comparing ability A to ability B is not proof. It is at best anecdotal evidence.

No, it is an example of precedence and game balance. Bladed Dash removes a lot of the need for an ability like dimension assault. The greater bladed dash actually removes the need entirely. For a spell of lower level you get a full attack and actually get a bonus attack that apparently stacks with Haste, as per developer intention.

Are there any other abilities in the game that give a character Pounce at level 4? Are there any other abilities that give extra attacks that stack with haste? The answer is of course, Yes there are. But they are few and far between.

The people in this thread are pissed because I have convincingly argued that the existing mechanic is not in line with other similar game mechanics. Whether I like it or not isn't the point.

Rules-wise, this is a legitimate combo. But keep in mind numerous threads like this about Zen Archer were made. I made this thread to raise awareness about the combination,t that way cheesers in PFS will abuse the hell out of it, and end up getting it banned.

One idea for abusing this mechanic is Unsactioned Knowledge, Ring of Spell Knowledge, Mystic Past Life, Unsanctioned Knowledge or possibly something like Eldritch Heritage or Dreamed Secrets may allow for said abuse.

Can anyone think of a way to get the Bladed Dash combo to work with Spellstrike? Maybe if you set the charge for a touch spell the round before?

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Regarding summoners...

First of all, most people agree Synthesist Summoners are OP. Secondly, its their Eidolons getting pounce and not them, big difference. Also, summoners rarely do the kind of damage that a Magus or Dex fighter will do, as it'd be with non-manufactured weapons and without spell strike.

Secondly, if we're talking Pathfinder Society... Synthesis summoners were banned forever ago. I personally believed the intention of Bladed Dash was to allow the Magus to have a viable charge option -- rather than to give them a pounce + full attack at level 4.

If there's any way to combine this with Shocking Grasp at low level, it's ripe for some abuse. The idea with Paladins and Unsanctioned Knowledge, yeah thats pure cheese. I intend to abuse that with extreme prejudice, until or if this ever gets FAQ'd.

@ Dimensional Dervish

No. You have to use the spell Dimension Door, rather than bladed dash, to get that effect. Also you need to have that full feat line and spell to qualify for the feat. IMO Bladed Dash's big sister is a better option.

Bladed Dash + Spell Combat is to Pounce as popularity is the sl***y little sister to prestige

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>Dimensional assault also doesn't require a straight line per se, as there could be difficult or even non existent terrain between the start point and the end point.

Yes it does, it functions as a charge, or thats the implication with the pre-req feat as well.

>With dimensional assault you can literally by pass everything else between you and your target.

You can with the Bladed Dash as well. You move instantly up to 30 feet, (granted, the range is less than Dimensional Assault) as a non-action, with a free attack that has a bonus and still get a full attack.

It is in every way other than range better than Dimensional Assault. Requiring a level 2 spell rather than a level 4 spell, no feats and allowing for a full attack action as part of it.

It's more than just a good combination, it totally eclipses every other similar ability that I can think of. Also, Druids and Barbarians don't get Pounce until level 10 or so, I believe.

I'd interested to hear how the developers believe a level 4 pounce is in line with the rest of the game, balance-wise. The only saving grace of this...

It can't be combined with Spellstrike / Shocking Grasp. Because it eats your 1-spell-per-turn limit.

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I saw that part. What I don't get is how the power level is regarded to be in line with Dimensional Assault, or with the fact that any other class doesnt get a pounce-like ability at that level.

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Well apparently this combination is legitimate. I'd like a response from the game developers, if possible.

Dimensional Assault

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Here we have a similar ability. Requires level 4 spell, and allows only a single attack as per a charge.

Do the game developers not feel that Bladed Dash is a bit overpowered by comparison?

I mean let's get totally real here. Are there any other classes that get pounce access at level 4?

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Do we really think the game developers intended to give level 4 magus a pounce ability? Sorry guys this is common sense.

If the spell text trumps full attack you get a single attack as per the spell. There are no similar spells of similar level and strength. RAI seems clear here. It was intended to provide magus a charge ability with a bonus attack. Not pounce.

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RAW the only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5 foot.The combo is no longer legal sadly

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Spell combat was FAQs to be a full attack action.

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I want this combo to be legal as much as you guys but see no rules justification for it

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The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

Seems cut and dry. only movement is 5 foot step. dimensiona assault feat line makes this more clear.

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It says movement not move action.dimension door as precedent

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Note full attack action specified no movement not no move action. cut and dry

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Again the purpose of the spell is one extra attack not give Magus free pounce at lvl 4

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faq here


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per full attack it isn't legal. you need a feat to do it with dimension door.

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It's a failed mechanic.

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I go the other way from Hark. In my games I just flat out say you cannot stack parent and hybrid classes. It makes no sense that a specialized class can start to magically unspecialize at higher levels and take levels in the parent class. It's a huge hole that will get exploited in pathfinder society play.

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GM Lamplighter wrote:

No, keen can't be used on ammunition.

prd wrote:
Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen.

PRD on Keen Edge

"The spell can be cast only on piercing or slashing weapons. If cast on arrows or crossbow bolts, the keen edge on a particular projectile ends after one use, whether or not the missile strikes its intended target. Treat shuriken as arrows, rather than as thrown weapons, for the purpose of this spell."

So it works on shurikens and crossbow bolts, would it work on siege engine ammo?

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It says piercing or slashing, so..? I'm leaning towards no but what is RAW on this

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Give Fighters a built-in ability to get monster abilities like grab, pounce. Full-movement in heavy armor, at higher levels.

Whirlwind, rend, trip, flight, dual initiative, distraction (dirty trick), bleed or blind-sense. Fortification progression. Ideally, these would be in place of bonus feats.

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I agree with Dennis, and I think a lot of the issues rogues and monks face could be solved by allowing archetypes that give full BAB or increased HD at the cost of other class features.

In addition, I think porting over some 3.5 sneak attacks feats like Craven, Improved Sneak Attack, Crippling Strike (sp?), Telling Blow and others could improve rogues greatly. It's also my opinion that sniping rules need to be clarified and revisited. I feel higher level Rogues should have some way to fake-out blindsense and tremor-sense, as well.

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Long story short, yes. Warpriests lost full BAB. WIS -> CHA for Fervor is a welcome change. A few of the feats are decent, many are ho hum. The new spells are meh. Paizo basically hates Clerics.

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Fake Healer wrote:

There are people on the boards that will tell you how healing in combat is bad, a wasted action, and scales horribly..

The messageboards are full of people who theorycraft and DPR themselves into stupidly restrictive roles in the name of some supposed "effectiveness equation".
Don't listen to them and do what you think is best in your game.

Pretty much this. Combat healing is necessary sometimes. A solid cleric has some contribution to a party other than being a band-aid, however. You do not need Healing domain to be a good cleric. Generally speaking it's sufficient to prepare a few support/buff spells and some all-around spells.

Plenty of optimization guides exist. For anyone reading... A few general hints on healing as a cleric:

1) Channel Positive Energy. Why? It's easier than negative energy. At later levels, you're often fighting constructs, undead, outsiders, elementals or so forth. *None* of these enemies are healed by a default "heal living". That's because undead are not living, and neither are constructs. Elementals and outsiders need feats to be healed. At early levels, this is best left as an out of combat thing.

2) Scribe Scroll. Because it's cheap and easy to create scrolls. Alternatively, craft or buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds. It's 700 gold or so for about 100-200HP+ worth of healing. Also scribe scroll can be used to create "buff" spells or situational spells for condition removal.

3) Prevent damage, so you don't need to heal. How? Buff your allies and support them with your spells. Throw down Bless early on in a meaningful combat. At higher levels get Divine Favor, Blessing of Fervor and other buffs out there. Consider the power of Bull's Strength and other animal buffs. A Protection from Evil on the Barbarian may seem like a waste, but every bit of AC adds up.

4) Healing domain is a double edged sword. The higher level domain power is pretty decent, but it doesn't affect your channeling (if your DM agrees to that, he is a true gentleman). It also gives you fairly worthless domain spells (ones you already have)

Long story short, don't be a band-aid. Support the party through buffs, spells and some damage where appropriate.

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Rage powers also only apply when you are raging. You don't have to resist spells outside of a rage.

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When you drink a potion, the potion is the caster. It is assumed to have a charisma or int of 10.

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My two copper...

Mary Sue characters ruin roleplay. Ultimately it's a game about roleplay. I think thematically inappropriate characters are rarely justified under anything more than the guise of expectation of special treatment, or just blatant min-maxing. But exceptions exist.

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Doesn't work either. In fantasy world, racism exists. Good and evil are game mechanics referenced by players. In the 'real' fantasy world, people will kill first and ask questions later. Especially adventuring types, where humming and hawing or being quizzical idiots can get you killed in a matter of seconds.

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Drow are a race of chaotic evil demon worshipers. Anyone that knows what they are will probably draw their weapons or kill them on sight. Those that don't will still get a creepy vibe, and probably deny them entrance. It's a case of BUT I WANT TO PLAY DRIZZT.

The "get more information" attitude gets the town burned down. Red dragons are chaotic evil. You don't negotiate with chaotic evil in fantasy games. You kill it.

Reacting as the player, rather than the character, is meta-gaming. And referencing out of game mechanics just smacks of that.

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The bad news:

Permanent negative levels do remove spell slots and other class features. You get one save per negative level taken. DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the draining creature’s racial HD + the draining creature’s CHA modifier. Negative levels can kill you. Greater restoration can remove them.

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The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels.

Yes you have them, you do not lost your prepared 6th level spells or those (unused) slots. It does affect your caster level.

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Would this forum say it is reasonable to tell the players

-Core Races only
-No Advanced Class Guide classes

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Is this going too far? It seems like the vast majority of Golarion (judging from the descriptions of towns and NPC stat blocks) are the core races. Is it reasonable to tell players they must select a race from the core races only?

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NobodysHome wrote:
Jeven wrote:
Is it practical to attempt to parlay with every monster you meet, on the 1/1000 that it might be good?

No, but it's "Good".

No, it isn't. Good is not stupid. Good heroes would not sit there and look at a Red Dragon flying above their town. They would shoot it down and kill it.


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It's one of those moments in D&D when you sort of accept that you drew a bad hand, and you just make a new character. Sometimes the good guys die. (See Game of Thrones tropes...)

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REVISED FAQ on Bastard Swords from October 2013:
A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).

The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.

For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

IMO that's well clear, and from the entire (updated) FAQ as well. If you have exotic weapon proficiency you can infact wield a Large bastard sword in 2 hands as a medium creature. With typical sizing penalty, reduced to 0 by Titan Mauler archetype. This got FAQ'd and then later re-FAQ'd. So did Titan Mauler, incidentally.

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You can get around the Cross-blooded disadvantages by playing a Human instead, IMO. Take Iron Will as a bonus feat, use the FCB to get back your spells known. Or throw Expanded Arcana on there at a later level. Still a straight Arcane blood sorcerer is one of the most powerful builds there is out there.

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I'd agree. I think the error is that some of the Inquisitor/Cleric dip builds end up taking 2 domains and 1 inquisition, which is technically not legal.

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Are there actually deities that have shields as their favored weapon? I think it's FAQ worthy to see if this would apply to shield bash, if that is the case.

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Extra cheese: Inquisitor of Ragathiel. Free exotic weapon proficiency with your Bastard sword.

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lemeres wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

Yes, killing any sentient creature on sight is evil, just like killing any sentient thing is evil. However, you may be doing so for altruistic or protective reasons (which are good) which means a lot of people who do probably are acting more Neutral, and are pre-emptively attempting to protect themselves and others from the very likely dangerous threat.

The short version is yes, it is evil to kill something on sight, but not necessarily stupid. Even most good characters do evil things occasionally because evil is often very self-preserving.

Most of my characters wouldn't murder a drow on sight, but then most of my characters are likely to end up in some tough situations because their decisions do have consequences.

Would it be evil for bank security to shoot on sight any men coming in wearing ski masks and holding guns?

I mean, there are sometimes circumstances where danger can be extremely apparent due to the appearance of the other party.

I will admit though, giving them a warning and preparing to shoot them them if they don't surrender is generally better decorum.

False equivalence. Real world morality is not game morality, nor does it have anything to do with the world's universe. It's a logical fallacy, and a false comparison.

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CrabSage wrote:

I don't get why you keep posting in your own threads using another alias. If you have your own views and don't want to change them don't make a thread about it. As for your original question, I think killing on site even if something is evil is probably evil. I would say its a GM call.

No, it isn't. It's defined in the alignment section of the SRD. Drow are a monstrous race, and they are universally reviled even by other races in the underdark. Read the lore.

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By RAW if you have 5 or more HP lost then it kicks in and takes it immediately from her life total. If the GM is running a house rule it may be different. If he argues otherwise on the rule interpretation, he is just simply wrong.

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I'd go as far to argue that killing Drow on sight is not against the Code of Conduct. I'd also go as far as to say that RAW, the life of a Drow has absolutely no moral value whatsoever. No more than a Kobold.

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DrDeth wrote:

Well, it depends. A single drow not hurting anyone? Then it's best to detain and question.

A drow warparty? Attack on sight before they attack you.

A single drow can be a warparty if he's a noble drow. They may be hiding their #s with invisibility or dark elven magic. Moreover the vast majority of them are evil. Best to kill him before he gets to his friends and alerts them to the presence of your civilization. Castle doctrine, again fully justified in slaughtering the 'innocent' drow before he even opens his mouth.

My 2 copper, naturally.

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Few factors worth considering:

*Channeling Scourge only applies to channeling energy to deal damage. (harm option) So it wouldn't affect self-healing. Or heal option at all. The feat can only be taken once you have taken a level of Cleric. In effect it either affects your harm living or harm undead options.

*You only get 1 domain from the Cleric dip, rather than 2. Must also come from your deity's portfolio list.

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Right the thing is the Rogue silently whips the door open. On the surprise round, the melee moves through and thus gets in position to setup a flank and tank. The Barbarian delays and charges through. The wizard has his metamagic rod out already and a creature summoned. The Paladin has Protection from Evil, Bless and Bull's Strength on him. Cleric readies a channel if people look hurt, excluding bad guys. Wizard goes first, readies an action to when the door opens, and casts glitterdust on the room, blinding 2 of the 3 orc warriors. All's well that ends well.

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