Agreed.
Barbarian rage powers are so good people use feats to select more.
Meanwhile Rogue Talents are so weak that some of the best rogue talents are ones that give you feats.
Just call the Slayer a Rogue.
Rogue fixed!
Do not celebrate too soon.
Although by one hand other classes tend to be just better than rogues by default, if what happened to the investigator in indicative of something there is also the thing about maintainng the illusion about rogues balance by releasing new mediocre new options.
I cannot think of any other class that has so many other classes able to get full access to their main class features. Everyone and their mum seems to have access to Rogue Talents including the new Slayer and Investigator alternate classes as well as Archaelogist Bards. They're not exactly powerful, but every single aspect of the rogue class can also be obtained by other classes including Trapfinding, Evasion, Rogue Talents and Sneak Attack.
If you could take a fighter Archetype and basically get full access to Barbarian rage and powers there would be outrage (we're not counting Viking as the rage is at fighter level -3 and you need to give up quite a lot to gain access to new rage powers, that and you lose out on the all-powerful beast totem). The Rogue has been undermined and eroded, unfortunately.
I completely agree that Rogues are due a bit of power creep, with the caveat that any new and hilariously overpowered Rogue Talents must be *Rogue base class only*.
why viking lose beast totem?
why viking lose beast totem?
It doesn't but it does get it very late.
Ok.
By the other hand, new rogue power have not to be overpowerd, just not silly underpowered.
They just need a Greater Rogue Talent as good as Greater beast totem and about 10 lesser talents that are better than feats and a few more good greater talents.
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why viking lose beast totem?
As I understand it you need to take the Totem Warrior Barbarian archetype to get access to any Totem-type Barbarian Rage Powers. This archetype has no downside. I could have read it wrong, but otherwise what's the point of the Archetype?
But I completely agree with Insain Dragoon - there need to be Rogue Talents that you would consider as better than feats. As it is, many rogue builds either use feat-duplicating Rogue Talents like Finesse Rogue or use both Combat Trick and Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) to just get more combat feats.
Paizo has done odder things...
Looks at rumormonger rogue talent, titan mauler, dune drifter, and various other feats/class abilities that let you do something you could already do.
why viking lose beast totem?As I understand it you need to take the Totem Warrior Barbarian archetype to get access to any Totem-type Barbarian Rage Powers. This archetype has no downside. I could have read it wrong, but otherwise what's the point of the Archetype?
AH, ok.
No, you do not need that archetype. In fact htat archetype was clarified to do nothing.
How about just make the rogue full BAB and grant sneak attack on every hit and remove immunites to sneak attack period? And SNA has NO requirements for it's application.
With SNA immunity is removed from the game entirely just make 1/round the rogue can apply SNA damage to an attack after it hits? Allow an additional application per iterative tier.
Another rogue-only minor talent could also be make fort or will a favored save category. With evasion like features to that save.
Paizo has stated a milion and a half times they wont change classes.
If we want the rogue to be viable it will be through feats and rogue talents.
How about just make the rogue full BAB and grant sneak attack on every hit and remove immunites to sneak attack period? And SNA has NO requirements for it's application.
It is probably too much, not to mention taht it is in the wrong direction, IMHO.
A lot of the people who enjoy rogues do not play the class expecting the capacity to murderdeathkill everyting on sight.
Easy fix! Player want Rogue PC. GM say play twins.
Still too weak? Now too overpowered?
I've seen this thread a while now, but havn't read close to everything pre-posted. I'll give my thoughts:
I don't see that combat capability as much of a problem with the rogue. A rogue is sneaky, not a front line fighter in armour. I don't like the idea at all that a rogue should be equal in a fight against/with a fighter, paladin, cavalier or barbarian. Those guys are warriors, a rogue is... a rogue.
However, some improvements can be made to combat as well.What I see the problem as, is that almost any spell caster is a better sneaker, climber, bluffer ,etc-etc than any rogue.
The ninja is supperior to the rogue because of the ninja tricks: vanish, shadow clone and so on. These really help. I know that rogues have talants that lets them pick ninja tricks and a ki pool. But their ki pool is = to their Wis mod or a minimum of +1. A rogue shouldn't need a high Wis.
Since breaking compatibility isn't wanted, aka no altering the rogue class as is, we need to add new and cool rogue talants. Some or even most, I think, could be solved if they just got a better ki pool.
Something that makes them able to go invisible (like vanish).
Something to avoid damage (like shadow clone).
Maybe something to highten their chance to hit, a temp bonus on attack rolls, maybe when flanking.
Somthing that makes them better bluffers than any spell caster with basic illusion spells.
Something that would make them more mobile and able to compare with a spell caster with fly. Basicly a, very limited, set of spells but in talant form.
I'll bring something more concrete in a while, when I'm not pressed for time.
you've essentially described the majority of the feelings on the rogue.
No one is arguing that they should be as good at fighting as a fighter (well almost no-one). It's mainly that they're not good at fighting, and are worse at their niche then other classes that are both good at fighting and filling the rogue niche.
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Spawn of Lamashtu! Is this thread not dead yet?
Because it is a spawn of lamashtu.
Here's my build to add to this madness,
Scout/Swashbuckler
1. Sap Adept
Dodge
2. Ki Pool (Talent)
3. Underhanded (Extra Talent)
4. Vanishing Trick (Trick),
Scout's Charge (Scout)
5. Sap Master
6. Finesse Rogue (Talent),
Combat Trick -> Two W. Fighting
7. Leadership
8. Combat Trick -> Mobility
Skirmisher (Scout)
Fighter
1. Combat Expertise
Spring Attack
2. Whirlwind Attack
Rogue
9. Improved Critical: Rapier
10. Crippling Strike (Talent)
11. Critical Focus
12. Improved TWF (Talent: Feat)
Offensive Defensive (Talent)
Mythic
Champion
1st Tier
Champ Strike-Sudden Attack
Path Ability-Crusader
Mythic Feat: Dual Path: Trickster
^Fleet Charge^
2nd Tier
Universal Ability: Mythic Feat:
-(Mythic) Critical Focus
3rd Tier
-Fleet Warrior
Or
-Divine Surge
You can replace the Leadership feat with the Hidden Weapons (Extra Talent) if you'd like.
My first suggestion would be the Scout Archetype.
The Archetype gives up Uncanny Dodge (which admittedly, is a heck of a loss).
The Archetype gains (4th level) the ability to sneak attack after a charge and (8th level) the ability to sneak attack if they move more than 10 feet.
This makes the process of getting into positioning much less painful as you'll be able to make one sneak attack a round while getting there.
The AC loss from charging can be mitigated by Offensive Defense. Charging Hurler and Opening Volley become interesting options.
I've seen a fair bit of talk about kukri's and crits, but it doesn't seem like crits are a good way to build a class with 3/4 BAB with no way to buff its hit chance and a reliance on precision damage. These builds will sacrifice a feat for proficiency in the kukri and then proceed towards two-weapon fighting.
What about dropping the kukri and instead picking up Improved Unarmed Strike? This opens up the Brawling enchant for an additional +2 untyped bonus to unarmed attack and damage. The +2 hit will negate the two weapon fighting penalty and the +2 damage on every hit should more than outweigh the DPR difference between a punch/kick and a kukri.
Can Rogues pick up advanced ninja tricks? Would they be able to pick up Unarmed Mastery? Even if not, a combination of Monk's robe and the Brawling enchant should put unarmed well ahead of the Kukri while simultaneously allowing the unarmed rogue to layer on a bit more hit bonus which will help them land sneak attacks.
I'm against taking Improved Unarmed Strike as a rogue. That is a monk's territory and still requires you to put points into STR when you should keep it at 10 if you can.
The rogue can use Sleight of Hand to steal, disarm (if talent is taken), and conceal. Why not use saps as a rogue? Take Sap Adept to double your sneak dmg, keep Offensive Defense and Scout Archetype, pick up the Ninja talent "Hidden Weapons" and also grab the feat Quickdraw so then you can draw BOTH your concealed weapons as a free action in the surprise round and deal max sneak damage with Underhanded. Get the Rogue Trick: Positioning Attack so that after you hit, you get to freely move yourself around the target thus provoking your Scout ability that allows sneak attack after 10ft of movement. You can only use Positioning Attck once a day, but that's very useful in a 1v1 situation.
Fast Getaway is not bad to have in 1v1 situations when you need to get out of town or "reset" the encounter. Sneak attack, withdraw, hide and sneak back on the opponent is great guerrilla-style warfare in Pathfinder if need be, but with all of the sneak die you're rolling as Sap Adept your AC should be pretty hard to beat so long as you keep getting your sneak damage.
As a rogue you need to pick your battles, but more importantly, keep the fight in your favor. Use all of your tricks and abilities to keep you on the high ground, as it were. Make them fight in your arena on your terms.
As a rogue you need to pick your battles, but more importantly, keep the fight in your favor. Use all of your tricks and abilities to keep you on the high ground, as it were. Make them fight in your arena on your terms.
question: what arena would that be? anyone else who is 'thief-y' would be as well suited there if not more.
-can't SA in the dark (due to it granting concealment--huge design oversight imo) unless you're blessed enough to be a race with darkvision (poor humans and half-ies)
-can't SA by yourself with much reliability--without eating your best attacks (such as feinting) anyway
-sneaking up on someone gets you one (1) sneak attack since it breaks your stealth
-at high enough levels to have the feats that patch the sinking ship you're playing, everyone else has the same (if not more) number of feats than you, or spells that can completely trump you.
of course most issues can be remedied by playing something with darkvision and having the nature soul+animal ally feats for a full progression animal companion (see: wolf flank/trip buddy), but it still doesn't fix your 'cant-hit-worth-a-damn'-itis
As a rogue you need to pick your battles, but more importantly, keep the fight in your favor. Use all of your tricks and abilities to keep you on the high ground, as it were. Make them fight in your arena on your terms.question: what arena would that be? anyone else who is 'thief-y' would be as well suited there if not more.
-can't SA in the dark (due to it granting concealment--huge design oversight imo) unless you're blessed enough to be a race with darkvision (poor humans and half-ies)
-can't SA by yourself with much reliability--without eating your best attacks (such as feinting) anyway
-sneaking up on someone gets you one (1) sneak attack since it breaks your stealth
-at high enough levels to have the feats that patch the sinking ship you're playing, everyone else has the same (if not more) number of feats than you, or spells that can completely trump you.of course most issues can be remedied by playing something with darkvision and having the nature soul+animal ally feats for a full progression animal companion (see: wolf flank/trip buddy), but it still doesn't fix your 'cant-hit-worth-a-damn'-itis
You are playing a rogue wrong then. First off, read my s$$@ about the Scout archetype. Move 10ft in a round and your next attack deals sneak. Hard to break AC? Attack from behind to ignore opponent's dex and add +2 to your hit.
The rogue was never meant for 1v1 which is why he's designed to get away from it. If you want a rogue with 1v1 take a level in Assassin and call it a day.
er, how does he get away from 1v1? not being able to stand on one's own is not a positive for a class.
Scout archetype. Move 10ft in a round and your next attack deals sneak.
Hm.
Not charge if ally or creature in between.
Not over difficult terrain.
Not if turn corner.
Not if lack line of sight when begin.
Costs full attack to make move and one attack.
Think you deep in dungeon after leave trail of clever Drow playing dead now plan revenge.
Not charge if ally or creature in between.
Not over difficult terrain.
Not if turn corner.
Not if lack line of sight when begin.
Costs full attack to make move and one attack.
One level of Martial artist or 2 feat to get Dragon Style makes everything works together. For the lack of line of sight: it's the same for every class. And for the full attack: the rogue is not suppose to stay in range of the big bad monster. It's not a warrior....
Just call the Slayer a Rogue.
Rogue fixed!
I'd say the Investigator does a better job of being a rogue than the Slayer does. The slayer is good at few rogue things but that's it. Most of the rogue talents they have aren't what make a rogue a rogue. All the those talents are with the Investigator.
I'm playing a Slayer right now in the rogues role. I thought it would be good enough and I find I'm lacking in what the rogue does but I'm as good in combat as the Ranger in the group.
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One level of Martial artist or 2 feat to get Dragon Style makes everything works together. For the lack of line of sight: it's the same for every class. And for the full attack: the rogue is not suppose to stay in range of the big bad monster. It's not a warrior....
And yet you advocate charging in to the enemy to get a single sneak attack and leave yourself in reach of a full attack.
We call that playing a Rogue. Your role is not to get beside the big boss from round 1 to 5 while trying to get your sneak working. Your role is to give the final blow, or at least try to do so, and to attack the weaker one (like caster). Sure, you may pass 2-3 round to do some small distant attack or to try sneak your way behind the front line, and many will not like it... But it's what rogue do.
With a Scout, you chose when you attack, and you can get a Sneak almost every time you try. So yes, I advocate to charge an enemy that seems to be on the verge of death, and no, I don't advocate to charge a Red Dragon at full HP.
We call that playing a Rogue. Your role is not to get beside the big boss from round 1 to 5 while trying to get your sneak working. Your role is to give the final blow, or at least try to do so, and to attack the weaker one (like caster). Sure, you may pass 2-3 round to do some small distant attack or to try sneak your way behind the front line, and many will not like it... But it's what rogue do.
That do not talk particularly good about rogues.
You may see it that way, but I don't dislike it. I mean, what is suppose to be the Rogue? An agile warrior who is in the front line? Or something like Merry who hide and backstab the witch king at the end of the fight?
And for the ''warm the bench until''... well, yeah, why not. The Rogue is more like the kicker in a football game than a Frontliner or a Quaterback.
You may call that a NPC, but I call that ''a PC that I would play''. If in your game it's NPC who put the big boss on his knees, I think that you DM wants to shine by himself.
And eck, the Rogue is maybe not the best character in combat, but he is one of the best in skills and socials. You may spend two or three rounds doiing noting in combat, but it's not worse thant the paladin/fighter/cleric/ Sorcerer passing many ''skill challenge'' situation looking at bird flying...
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And eck, the Rogue is maybe not the best character in combat, but he is one of the best in skills and socials. You may spend two or three rounds doiing noting in combat, but it's not worse thant the paladin/fighter/cleric/ Sorcerer passing many ''skill challenge'' situation looking at bird flying...
And I still haven't seen that situation happen either. My paladin contributes just fine, and my skills rogue gets defeated by the dice almost every time.
And eck, the Rogue is maybe not the best character in combat, but he is one of the best in skills and socials.
Except he isn't.
Well, I have seen the situation happens many time. Sure, we are talking about dice and sometime they just don't roll for you.... but it happens. The problem is: it depends of the game. For some groupe, it's more some ''open door, fight boss, take loot, open door, fight boss...'' while for others, you may have one combat per 3-4 hours of play...
TarkXT:
Read one more time: One of the best.
What is better than a Rogue in skills? The Bard will be better after level 6, the alchemist if he maxed int, a Ranger in his favored terrain... and the Caster using Int at higher level. So, yes, he is one of the best in skills.
High Cha scores is not that usefull. I mean: sure, you will have a +6 in cha based skills... but can you put 6 skills points in it? The Rogue can probably, and in time he will be better at it than a Cha based character.
And I don't know, but there is many more usefull trait for Int Caster... And anyway, sure, the Wizard will be better in skills at high level if the player play it with a min/max pattern.
But, we get what? Maybe Witch, Wizard, bard, some Alchemist build and some ranger who may be better than a Rogue in Skills. The Rogue will still be better than Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Cavalier, Sorcerer, Oracle, Monk, Summoner, Cleric....
So Yes, He is one of the best class in skills. I repeat: not the best, but one of.
How many rank? For Bluff, I think that ''sky is the limit''. Even Diplomacy: with some DM, you can win more fight with a diplomacy check than a sword slash.
I would place wizards, witches, sage sorcerers, bards and rangers as all better at skills than the rogue. They have comparable if not more actual skill points to work with and can more easily fill in gaps using spells.
I forgot the Sage Sorcerer, but we agree on the overall ;)