a Dex bard should be workable with a 14ish to 16ish strength score, i mean, power attack, inspire courage, arcane strike, and party buffs carry the rest and help the party as well.
they could use an 18ish plus if an angelkin Aasimaar whom combines a 2hander, with an inspire courage boosted by favored class, party buffs, arcane strike, and power attack to make one nasty martial bard. but their 2hand options are limited to longspear, morningstar and club outside of race and multiclassing unless you allow the outsider proficiencies to fly, which doesn't change much
a Dex bard should be workable with a 14ish to 16ish strength score, i mean, power attack, inspire courage, arcane strike, and party buffs carry the rest and help the party as well.
they could use an 18ish plus if an angelkin Aasimaar whom combines a 2hander, with an inspire courage boosted by favored class, party buffs, arcane strike, and power attack to make one nasty martial bard. but their 2hand options are limited to longspear, morningstar and club outside of race and multiclassing unless you allow the outsider proficiencies to fly, which doesn't change much
Ok the WHOLE point of playing a dex focused character is not to pump strength. I am so disgusted at all these strength rogue builds that I have the rogue listed as an NPC class to never play and discourage anyone else from playing.
Ok the WHOLE point of playing a dex focused character is not to pump strength. I am so disgusted at all these strength rogue builds that I have the rogue listed as an NPC class to never play and discourage anyone else from playing.a Dex bard should be workable with a 14ish to 16ish strength score, i mean, power attack, inspire courage, arcane strike, and party buffs carry the rest and help the party as well.
they could use an 18ish plus if an angelkin Aasimaar whom combines a 2hander, with an inspire courage boosted by favored class, party buffs, arcane strike, and power attack to make one nasty martial bard. but their 2hand options are limited to longspear, morningstar and club outside of race and multiclassing unless you allow the outsider proficiencies to fly, which doesn't change much
a 14 strength on a Dex Bard isn't Pumping Strength Excessively, it's 1 above the prerequisites for a major damage boosting feat, and it's something an Archer would do anyway
it also allows you to
Wear a Mithril Shirt and Carry a Few Backup Weapons
Carry your Pack
Qualify for Power Attack, which is a lot better than Pirahna Strike
use composite bows
the 18 Strength Angelkin, was an idea that involved pumping strength and was intended to be seperate
16 strength on a Dex bard is optional and likely a high level thing done around levels 12 and up
not every DM has a copy of the Sargava Companion and some of them are unaware of pirahna strike
power attack at least works with Rapiers, Scimitars, and Sawtooth Sabres
OMG get your filthy strength away from my dex characters. I have no intention of dump stating int, wis, or con on my skill monkey.
OMG get your filthy strength away from my dex characters. I have no intention of dump stating int, wis, or con on my skill monkey.
lets see what you could do with a 20 point human
Str 13
Dex 17 (15+2)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 13
with a 25 point allotment, you could have a 14 STR and 18 DEX
an Elf can Swap Int and Con to Get similar stats
see, there is no dump stat on the skill monkey array involved, merely a lack of a 20.
it has Average Wis, but if you swapped Wis and Cha on a character that wasn't a bard or ninja, you could also have an 8 Cha and 14 Wis
Who says you have to?
Human bard 20 point buy
str 10
dex 17
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 14
Who says you have to?Human bard 20 point buy
str 10
dex 17
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 14
really? a minute after i proved to you that you don't need to dump to afford a 13 strength if you are willing to lower Cha and Con just a small bit.
i posted a viable 20 point array that with wise expenditure of future attribute points, can get you a viable PFS bard already? it's not like you are getting 5th level spells.
you can use a 4,000 GP item at 9th or 10th level to get 4th level spells and still have an 18 Dex and 14 Str.
or do you simply beleive the 14 Con is neccessary for a non-primary combatant whom devoted their primary efforts to skills?
Who says you have to?Human bard 20 point buy
str 10
dex 17
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 147 str
20 dex
7 con
16 int
11 wis
16 chaTHIS IS HOW 20 POINT BUY HUMAN ROGUE SHOULD BE SET UPS!
Oh look dump stats. EDIT: meant dump stats. my bad
No I much prefer an Elf rogue
str 10
dex 18
con 12
int 16
wis 10
cha 10
It's a shame the rogue class is dependent on a situational mechanic (Sneak attack).
OMG get your filthy strength away from my dex characters. I have no intention of dump stating int, wis, or con on my skill monkey.lets see what you could do with a 20 point human
Str 13
Dex 17 (15+2)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 13
a human rogue could Rerrange this Array for
Str 13
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 10
or take a 7 Cha for the ability to 14 int and 14 Str
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I have to say this thread is quite an accomplishment. It took me a while to comb through everything (a week's worth of effort as time allowed), but I feel it was definitely worth it. I've never looked hard at the rogue before, sadly thinking it was "that" class; underpowered, weak, and difficult to pull off right with situational bonuses that just didn't seem very easy to manage.
But this has made me look twice at the Rogue and I'm liking what I'm seeing.
Others more skilled than I can talk more accurately about all of the Roguish features that shine, but in looking at what PF offers us and summing up what a lot of good contributions to this thread show, it seems like the class is really built around situational damage, harrying foes, and mastering skills that take planning and cunning to pull off. This is not for players who just like to walk up and hit things with a big stick.
TWF is always a temptation for delivering that juicy Sneaking goodness, but with the 3/4 BAB already working against the Rogue, any other penalties on the attack roll should really be avoided. All that nice Sneak Damage does nothing on a miss.
So what about a Light Shield Master/Finessed Bad-Touch TWF Rogue? Probably means a dip into a martial class unless you have the feats to take Shield Prof, but a +5 light spiked shield of Bashing can be finessed and Shield Master means you're not losing the -2 from TWF. Chill Touch could deliver the Touch attack with the off hand (since 50% of an already low Str will only be lousy anyway) and who cares if you're taking -2 on a Touch Attack? You'll be hitting pretty accurately there....especially when you throw in the +2 on a flank or the loss of Dex if you're Feinting or Shattering Defenses.
I'd have to look at building something like this as I have time. But maybe someone better at builds may want to see what can be made from this.
|
I wanted to make a team of characters that worked well together for PFS.First rule of PFS: ensure your character remains viable when you're not playing with your usual group under a friendly GM. (The whole point of the "living" system is taking your character on the road.
Actually, the first rule of PFS - don't be a jerk. That includes things like being considerate vs being condescending. Helpful suggestions are usually more productive than...well, your comments further below, really.
And the whole point of PFS? Our group will be playing with new people - a new DM, and a different 6th player. I personally think that qualifies as 'taking the character on the road', but YMMV.
Finally, I think the rogue is pretty reasonable on his own - it's when he's in our group that he really shines.
Another CHA-dumping "rogue" trying to be a strength-obsessed barbarian. He'll get his face ripped off by Tier 8, then whine on internet forums how rogues are suboptimal. (Then he'll go make an Astrologer with the same 2hPA emphasis, and fail miserably at that too.)
<shaking head>
The low Charisma will cause his face to get ripped off? If he had a higher Charisma, he WOULDN'T get his face ripped off? You'll have to tell me how that is the case. And I particuarly liked your "rogue" quotes - perhaps Charisma is what defines a rogue, in your opinion? Please, enlighten me. At 8th level, I figured the PC allies standing around him adding +12 or more to his AC and +7 to his saves might be what helps getting his face ripped off. Or perhaps he has to have a pretty face (ie: high CHA) to avoid having his face ripped off?
As to your ability to see into the future and predict how the player is going to whine about his character...I really have nothing 'equally constructive' to add to your personal insight.
How about this - how about you offer a suggestion on how to make the character better. Different feats, different tactics...I'm all open to listening to good advice, and I believe that is what the OP was looking for...
There's been several successful dex builds posted in here already. Why is this still being contested. Get a +1 Agile weapon with a good crit range. Buy a bow, take the bandit archetype and boost your initiative so you get a full attack in the surprise round and the first standard round. That's two full attacks with sneak attack on everything within 30ft. Take the sap adept and master feats and deal ridiculous non lethal damage. Dazzling display and shatter defenses. Don't want to burn the full round to use dazzling display, take power attack and Cornugun smash. Buy a smoke stick and use the 10 foot cube of smoke as a means to get cover for stealthing. Be creative. Stop complaining.
Don't forget the Wand of Tiny Hut.
Also -- wasn't this thread locked? What happened?
There's been several successful dex builds posted in here already. Why is this still being contested. Get a +1 Agile weapon with a good crit range. Buy a bow, take the bandit archetype and boost your initiative so you get a full attack in the surprise round and the first standard round. That's two full attacks with sneak attack on everything within 30ft. Take the sap adept and master feats and deal ridiculous non lethal damage. Dazzling display and shatter defenses. Don't want to burn the full round to use dazzling display, take power attack and Cornugun smash. Buy a smoke stick and use the 10 foot cube of smoke as a means to get cover for stealthing. Be creative. Stop complaining.Don't forget the Wand of Tiny Hut.
Also -- wasn't this thread locked? What happened?
they never locked it.
a wand of tiny hut is way too expensive to be practical except at the highest levels.
7 str
20 dex
7 con
16 int
11 wis
16 chaTHIS IS HOW 20 POINT BUY HUMAN ROGUE SHOULD BE SET UPS!
good luck surviving with a melee class while any of the following apply
your 7 Constitution leaves you dead after the first enemy swing against you
your 7 strength leaves you unable to wear armor or leaves you with the harsh penalties of a medium or heavy load. it also saddles you with a massive damage loss until you pick up a specific combination of feat and weapon enhancement
yes, you can buy a mithril shirt at 3rd or 4th level. but even at 10 lbs. with 2 daggers, a shortbow and 2 quivers. you are pretty close to encumbered before you count the weight of your pack
without your agile weapons, you have no reason to engage in melee combat
now, a bard whom didn't intend to fight, could use that array quite well as a support character by swapping Dex and Int as long as they avoided combat and played a heavy political intrigue campaign
please tell me 7 con on a melee class is a joke
i think it must be
unless we are talking about a Dex based paladin variant whom has enough self heals to get around the lack of constitution in a relatively short adventure day and enough consistent static damage to get around the lack of strength and power attack when not smiting.
if it's a rogue, i doubt it could survive combat with that little strength and constitution
a bard with that array whom swapped int and dex, could be a viable social character in a game that is more about political intrigue and less about killing things, such as something akin to assassin's creed but with a lot less combat.
Bards don't even come into the equation here, they're not melee fighters. You can build one but it won't be as effective as a ranged fighter, and even less so than just casting all the time.
please tell me 7 con on a melee class is a joke
i think it must be
unless we are talking about a Dex based paladin variant whom has enough self heals to get around the lack of constitution in a relatively short adventure day and enough consistent static damage to get around the lack of strength and power attack when not smiting.
if it's a rogue, i doubt it could survive combat with that little strength and constitution
a bard with that array whom swapped int and dex, could be a viable social character in a game that is more about political intrigue and less about killing things, such as something akin to assassin's creed but with a lot less combat.
Flagbearer Bard begs to differ.
Bards don't even come into the equation here, they're not melee fighters. You can build one but it won't be as effective as a ranged fighter, and even less so than just casting all the time.
please tell me 7 con on a melee class is a joke
i think it must be
unless we are talking about a Dex based paladin variant whom has enough self heals to get around the lack of constitution in a relatively short adventure day and enough consistent static damage to get around the lack of strength and power attack when not smiting.
if it's a rogue, i doubt it could survive combat with that little strength and constitution
a bard with that array whom swapped int and dex, could be a viable social character in a game that is more about political intrigue and less about killing things, such as something akin to assassin's creed but with a lot less combat.
i didn't intend for the bard example to be a damage dealer at all
but a buffer, controller and face
they have fewer slots and lower DCs than a wizard
but a 2 level rogue dip on an otherwise purely bardic makes for a decent trapfinder that is more focused on support than killing stuff
it's not for the faint of heart, but it's a bard whom does damage by making their allies perform better.
if there are at least 3 consistent weapon users in the party, accounting for martial pets and 3/4 bab classes who dedicated a reasonable focus to weapon use, besides the bard. the bard can afford to be pure support and let the 3 weapon users fight in their proxy. allowing the bard to focus more on skills and support, and less on combat.
but bards can be made to be decent but fragile melee damage dealers with a bit of tweaking as long as you don't dump strength and constitution
in fact, a party with 3 or more weapon users, benefits more from a bard than a rogue
and he's free to do so. Spellcasting Bard > Ranged Bard > Melee BardFlagbearer Bard begs to differ.Bards don't even come into the equation here, they're not melee fighters. You can build one but it won't be as effective as a ranged fighter, and even less so than just casting all the time.
please tell me 7 con on a melee class is a joke
i think it must be
unless we are talking about a Dex based paladin variant whom has enough self heals to get around the lack of constitution in a relatively short adventure day and enough consistent static damage to get around the lack of strength and power attack when not smiting.
if it's a rogue, i doubt it could survive combat with that little strength and constitution
a bard with that array whom swapped int and dex, could be a viable social character in a game that is more about political intrigue and less about killing things, such as something akin to assassin's creed but with a lot less combat.
Debateable. But not relevant to this thread.
I have to say this thread is quite an accomplishment. It took me a while to comb through everything (a week's worth of effort as time allowed), but I feel it was definitely worth it. I've never looked hard at the rogue before, sadly thinking it was "that" class; underpowered, weak, and difficult to pull off right with situational bonuses that just didn't seem very easy to manage.
But this has made me look twice at the Rogue and I'm liking what I'm seeing.
Others more skilled than I can talk more accurately about all of the Roguish features that shine, but in looking at what PF offers us and summing up what a lot of good contributions to this thread show, it seems like the class is really built around situational damage, harrying foes, and mastering skills that take planning and cunning to pull off. This is not for players who just like to walk up and hit things with a big stick.
TWF is always a temptation for delivering that juicy Sneaking goodness, but with the 3/4 BAB already working against the Rogue, any other penalties on the attack roll should really be avoided. All that nice Sneak Damage does nothing on a miss.
So what about a Light Shield Master/Finessed Bad-Touch TWF Rogue? Probably means a dip into a martial class unless you have the feats to take Shield Prof, but a +5 light spiked shield of Bashing can be finessed and Shield Master means you're not losing the -2 from TWF. Chill Touch could deliver the Touch attack with the off hand (since 50% of an already low Str will only be lousy anyway) and who cares if you're taking -2 on a Touch Attack? You'll be hitting pretty accurately there....especially when you throw in the +2 on a flank or the loss of Dex if you're Feinting or Shattering Defenses.
I'd have to look at building something like this as I have time. But maybe someone better at builds may want to see what can be made from this.
Exactly.
rogues aren't entirely useless. they still have value as a 2 level dip for other skill monkeys to gain trapfinding, evasion, and trap spotter on a support oriented character focused around skills.
thing is, to make it work, the skill monkey has to either be of the noncasting or the partial casting variety.
they also have value for a 3 level dip on a wizard whom seeks to become an arcane trickster
they also have value in the use of dipping to more qualify for a lot of 3.5e PRCs that had hefty skill requirements
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I started out playing Rogues; not by choice mind you, everyone else always got to choose their classes first so I got stuck with either a Rogue or a Bard and I absolutely hate playing a Bard.
The Rogue is one of those classes that CAN be a massive damage dealer when built right. It takes time, patients and the ability to work around the other players. However, I feel pathfinder nerfed; you can use the term nuked if your more familiar with it; their prestige options, namely taking away the Assassin's spells which allowed a Rogue char to stand toe-to-toe with almost any melee based class as long as you used cunning rather than brute force. They did kind of fix this with some of the arch-types; I found the Sniper to be especially good at dps while staying out of range of melee and giving spell casters something to really worry about.
But as far as fixing the Rogue... it's not the Rogue that needs to be fixed. It's the adventures. When was the last time you played an adventure where being sneaky, finding information, being able to get into particularly hard to reach areas, etc, etc was part of the adventure? Traps are easy to fix; you compound them. Make it both magical and mechanical. Yeah the spell caster can nullify the magic, but what if the magic was only one part of the trigger? Or better yet, the magic was the trigger? You activate the magic and the trap goes off, you nullify the magic and the trap goes off; it can work both ways. Change the traps from something small and insignificant, like a poison dart, to the WHOLE room. Trap goes off, room seals, when the wall seals shut it finishes a set of runes that don't have a magical aura because they form a giant circle of no-magic. Now the room starts filling with something; water, acid, oil, swarms upon swarms of insects; and now you have to figure out how to reverse the trap. That's where a Rogue who focused on those skills comes in real handy. I've killed entire groups of adventurers because they didn't have some one who could work on a trap like a Rogue can.
I started out playing Rogues; not by choice mind you, everyone else always got to choose their classes first so I got stuck with either a Rogue or a Bard and I absolutely hate playing a Bard.
you know, neither a rogue nor bard is really neccessary, and a lot of the flavor concepts that can be done with one, can be done with the other
i am personally quite fond of bards, especially bards whom take 2 levels of rogue to deal with deadly magical traps that nobody else wishes to deal with
but being a trapfinder and scout encourages 2 opposing mindsets, the first of which, is a boredom derived from the repetitive sequence of checking every 5 foot square
the second, encourages the thrill that comes from the interactive attention of playing the scout and face of the party.
to make traps not boring, you have to engage the searching player through interaction and description, which often either bypasses the roll entirely or heavily modified it
the rolling perception and disable device checks is pretty boring for most and shouldn't be forced onto a PC that doesn't wish to do so.
The Rogue is one of those classes that CAN be a massive damage dealer when built right. It takes time, patients and the ability to work around the other players. However, I feel pathfinder nerfed; you can use the term nuked if your more familiar with it; their prestige options, namely taking away the Assassin's spells which allowed a Rogue char to stand toe-to-toe with almost any melee based class as long as you used cunning rather than brute force. They did kind of fix this with some of the arch-types; I found the Sniper to be especially good at dps while staying out of range of melee and giving spell casters something to really worry about.
it was never assassin that was the primary roguish prestige class in 3.5, i think the more common ones were Unseen Seer, Nightsong Enforcer, Invisible Blade, and Champion of Correlon Larethian
Unseen Seer was an Arcane Trickster whom gave up 2 rogue levels for earlier entry, more skill points, and better casting ability. it had less sneak attack. but amazing synergy with acidic splatter
Nightsong Enforcer, was a 3.5 rogue whom gave up 4 skill points per level for full BAB, a d10 Hit Die, massive bonuses when providing aid another, but had almost the same sneak attack progression, and good fortitude. it's only prerequisite was improved initiative and a few bonuses a 5th level rogue could easily meet
Invisible Blade, was a 5 level PRC that at the last level, gave a rogue the ability to feint as a free action, an unlimited number of times in one round, with infinite retries, allowing a rogue infinite feint attempts and guaranteed a foe would be denied dexterity to AC. a common houserule was to limit it to once per round
Champion of Correlon, was a PRC exclusive to members of elven and half elven races, and could be taken by anything from a grey elf to a drow or even a wood elf or snow elf. it was a 2 level dip class to gain Dex to damage (in addition to Str) with a variety of finesse weapons. it's only restrictions were, you had to either be an elf or half elf of any elven subrace, including drow, or have been raised by elves.
But as far as fixing the Rogue... it's not the Rogue that needs to be fixed. It's the adventures. When was the last time you played an adventure where being sneaky, finding information, being able to get into particularly hard to reach areas, etc, etc was part of the adventure? Traps are easy to fix; you compound them. Make it both magical and mechanical. Yeah the spell caster can nullify the magic, but what if the magic was only one part of the trigger? Or better yet, the magic was the trigger? You activate the magic and the trap goes off, you nullify the magic and the trap goes off; it can work both ways. Change the traps from something small and insignificant, like a poison dart, to the WHOLE room. Trap goes off, room seals, when the wall seals shut it finishes a set of runes that don't have a magical aura because they form a giant circle of no-magic. Now the room starts filling with something; water, acid, oil, swarms upon swarms of insects; and now you have to figure out how to reverse the trap. That's where a Rogue who focused on those skills comes in real handy. I've killed entire groups of adventurers because they didn't have some one who could work on a trap like a Rogue can.
so your solution
isn't to buff rogues, but use GM fiat to make traps so deadly, that one Random PC feels forced to play a rogue or other trapfinding class.
this doesn't fix the rogue at all, it merely shoehorns the players into bullying the new guy and telling him to roll up a rogue which does nothing for the rogue player's enjoyment. all it does, is give reasons for players to engage in the act of hazing and feelings that a rogue is needed.
truth is, there are likely a lot of trapfinding classes that are generally good enough, and generally, a player shouldn't feel forced to play a class they don't like because a few 'senior members' did some hazing.
the key to making traps interesting, completely invalidates the rogue's role. and in fact, beefing up traps the way you mention, makes the rogue even more of a healing sponge because you know they are going to get bruised by the trap and have no way to heal themselves.
good job making the short adventuring day even shorter.
...I started out playing Rogues; not by choice mind you, everyone else always got to choose their classes first so I got stuck with either a Rogue or a Bard and I absolutely hate playing a Bard.
The Rogue is one of those classes that CAN be a massive damage dealer when built right. It takes time, patients and the ability to work around the other players. However, I feel pathfinder nerfed; you can use the term nuked if your more familiar with it; their prestige options, namely taking away the Assassin's spells which allowed a Rogue char to stand toe-to-toe with almost any melee based class as long as you used cunning rather than brute force. They did kind of fix this with some of the arch-types; I found the Sniper to be especially good at dps while staying out of range of melee and giving spell casters something to really worry about.
But as far as fixing the Rogue... it's not the Rogue that needs to be fixed. It's the adventures. When was the last time you played an adventure where being sneaky, finding information, being able to get into particularly hard to reach areas, etc, etc was part of the adventure? Traps are easy to fix; you compound them. Make it both magical and mechanical. Yeah the spell caster can nullify the magic, but what if the magic was only one part of the trigger? Or better yet, the magic was the trigger? You activate the magic and the trap goes off, you nullify the magic and the trap goes off; it can work both ways. Change the traps from something small and insignificant, like a poison dart, to the WHOLE room. Trap goes off, room seals, when the wall seals shut it finishes a set of runes that don't have a magical aura because they form a giant circle of no-magic. Now the room starts filling with something; water, acid, oil, swarms upon swarms of insects; and now you have to figure out how to reverse the trap. That's where a Rogue who focused on those skills comes in real handy. I've killed entire groups of adventurers because they didn't have
And as has been demonstrated earlier many classes can get trapfinding or soem form of it that aren't rogues. Alchemists, bards, and rangers in particular are in direct competition with the rogue in many cases. However Seeker sorcerers are also notable since them having that ability allows that spot to be taken by literally any other class.
In any case the reason this thread is not locked is becaus eI haven't figured out how to get a mod to lock it. :/
It doesn't need to be locked.
On dungeons and adventures I make it very clear to my players, the games I run (and like) isn't just bashing doors in and killing monsters, there will be a lot more and stealth can sometimes really be a smart idea (or do you want to be eaten by harpies?). Getting up that mountain might be hard in all that armour mr tank, please take some form of social skills to influence npcs, plan and coordinate to take the dungeons/castles, and be careful of traps.
So yeah, rogues do pretty well in the games I run, but my rogue players are shifty and cunning fellows that either know how to make good rogues (ninjas, scouts and the like) or they have the smarts to make the indirect approach work.
Giving the rogue a real place in a game and plenty to do and (potentially) do well isn't dm fiat.
Although I like the mechanics of scout, the idea of a rogue moving 10ft and wearing snipping goggles to sneak attack a foe 100ft away seems odd.
You've never, in a game, dropped an arrow into the throat of someone from long range?
No skyrim for ye?
I've rigidly enforced the sneak attack range, but from expert crossbowmen to snipers, it can be brought into question.
You've never, in a game, dropped an arrow into the throat of someone from long range?
No skyrim for ye?
I've rigidly enforced the sneak attack range, but from expert crossbowmen to snipers, it can be brought into question.
No what I don't understand is how moving 10ft allows you to sneak attack someone 100ft away who sees you and is aware of you.
I guess you get them between the eyes while they are looking at you, lol.
I guess you get them between the eyes while they are looking at you, lol.
But what part of moving 10ft helps you do that?
It is all in the saunter.
swag
1 |
Combat Expertise, Deceitful
2 |
Finesse Rogue
3 |
Skill Focus(Bluff)
4 |
Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |
Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |
Minor Magic(Prestidigitation)
7 |
Arcane Strike
8 |
Major Magic(Silent Image)
9 |
Greater Feint
10|
Skill Mastery
11|
Extra Rogue Talent(Familiar)
12|
Dispelling Attack
13|
Improved Familiar
14|
Crippling Strike
15|
Extra Rogue Talent(Opportunist)
16|
Unwitting Ally
17|
Extra Rogue Talent(Stealthy Sniper)
18|
Hard to Fool
19|
Extra Rogue Talent(Weapon Snatcher)
20|
Skill Mastery
Rules Questions:
1) Can a familiar feint for you? (Like can they use your Greater Feint feat, I assume no. Any way to make this happen?) Else familiar makes decent flanking buddy and can use UMD.
2) Can extra rogue talent be used to take advance talents? (I would assume yes)
Tactics of build from mid-high levels:
Melee: Feint or Flank (Crippling strike or Dispelling strike depending on situation)
Range: Snipe or UMD wand
Contribution to team:
1. Decent Skill monkey, great bluffer
2. Deals noticeable damage, harms strength and dispels buffs
3. Can use wands and staffs better than the wizard's familiar!
Target items:
Sniper Goggles
Ring of Invisibility
+5 Agile Keen Rapier (Ideally +1 Agile Rapier before +2 Rapier)
Better at than comparable classes:
1. Dex based skill checks are probably higher
2. Better Bluffer than sorcerer
3. Better at UMD than everyone (Personally can take 10, high bonus, familiar can also use UMD for more actions)
4. Amazing Skill monkey familiar
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In any case the reason this thread is not locked is beacus eI haven't figured out how to get a mod to lock it. :/The reason this thread is not locked is because you do not own it. It is the property of Paizo publishing and they promote healthy debate, not censorship. Nor do they want to lock a thread this large only to see another one exactly like it populate the boards.
The nonsense about censorship aside aside the reason I wanted it locked has to do with my efforts to organize all the information given along with several other posters so that it's easier to parse through and read.
Once that's done I can start a new thread shedding much of the "rogues suck/are awesome" baggage that is the source of a great deal of the nonsense here and focus on the optimization and strategic aspects of it allowing better information to flow. Regardless of whether this thread is locked or not I'm moving forward with this plan.
Merry christmas.
Then why worry about this one being locked while there's people here discussing still. Just move forward with your plan.
Merry Christmas
WEll, for one lots of people have called for it being locked anyway due to the clutter. Also, because any information added will be lost since I've already got all 148 pages worth of builds in one place waiting to be organized as well as a hundred pages worth of good tips and strategies (not just anecdotal slosh). After this is organized I want to contact certain individuals about having their own contributor pages on the doc.
It's about simplifying a rather massive and impressive beast.
On second Thought I think half-elf is better for this build...
Free skill focus, bonuses to skills, ability to sneak attack in shadows.
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after playing the "stealth on stealth" rogue6/monk2/fighter1/shadowdancer1 character, as both a gm and a pc, i have to say that it was a FUN character, and very effective once i hit about 6th level. once 7th level came it took off and was obliterating living npc targets, it did well against targets immune to nonlethal as well but was built for debuffing.
once the shaken/sicken/stunned/staggered/ect... started rolling,with all the bonuses to hit and hellcat stealth allowing for sneak attacks each round he just went nutz. snake style was icing on the cake as far as damage, and avoidance went.
Viper:
monk 2/unarmed fighter 1/shadowdancer 1/ninja 6 (m,m,n,n,n,n,f,s,n,n)
str 18 (16+2 racial)
dex 16 (14+2 levels)
con 10
wis 16 (14+2 headband)
int 13
cha 7
hit: bab 7 + 2 brawling + 1 WF + 6 str ( bull strength)= +16 + flat footed + stunning fist
damage: 7d6+ 8 (subdual)
AC: 5 dex (+cats grace) + chain shirt + dodge= 20 + mobility + conditions (-4 attack)
OR
snake style 18 + (1d20)
FORT 9
REF 15
WILL 10
feats:
H enforcer
1 skill focus stealth
m dodge
-
m combat reflexes
-
3 mobility
-
n weapon focus
-
5 dazzling display
-
n snake style
-
f snake fang
7 hell cat stealth
-
9 shatter defenses
-
n sap adept
i went with ninja, for the kipool synergy, but thats not necessary if you wanted to keep it solid rogue.