The ARG "race restriction" and favored class bonuses


Pathfinder Society

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Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

John Compton wrote:
An aasimar or elf affected by this change may freely change her race, favored class point assignments, and any character options (e.g. feats, race-specific spells and archetypes, etc.) dependent on being a member of that race.

*raises hand*

And Half-elves?

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

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Nefreet wrote:
John Compton wrote:
An aasimar or elf affected by this change may freely change her race, favored class point assignments, and any character options (e.g. feats, race-specific spells and archetypes, etc.) dependent on being a member of that race.

*raises hand*

And Half-elves?

I think this is one of those effects that half-elves count as elves for :)


I was correct about my oracle being nerfed hardcore.

Well that is now a dead character I will never play again.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If the character is dead, then nerfing it or not is probably besides the point.

"He's dead, Jim. And his Touch of Madness isn't doing very well, either."

The campaign rules have forbidden us from playing dead characters for some time now.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Can't tell if sarcastic...

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Chris Mortika wrote:
If the character is dead, then nerfing it or not is probably besides the point.

You're dead to me.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Seriously though, Racial Heritage: can it get me things from the Advanced Race Guide? Yes? No?


Dead as in it will sit at level 4 and never get any credit or play again.

I will not spend the resources to retrain.

Dead as in I consider it dead even though he never died in a game. Since it is my character and onyl I can play him. If I consider him dead he might as well be.

I will move on and make/play others. I have 9 now :/

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Finlanderboy wrote:
Dead as in it will sit at level 4 and never get any credit or play again.

Why? The severity of your response seems disproportionate to the change; so much so that I wonder if you misread.

Shadow Lodge

On a related note, this means scion of humanity allows aasimars to take human fcbs too correct?


Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

I, for one, am happy that channeling didn't get needed.


Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.

Nature oracles could get a really nice horse or camel. It was not even in the same ballpark as an optimized druid companion.

Now nature oracles pretty much can get a horse....

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Dylos wrote:
On a related note, this means scion of humanity allows aasimars to take human fcbs too correct?

That came up in discussion, and it's one of the reasons that I worded the first entry the way that I did. At one point it read more like "Races that lack a similar racial trait do not count as a member of any other race for this purpose," but the decision was made to keep a race's options exclusive to that race except in special circumstances (e.g. one of the recent GM star reward Chronicle sheets).

Jiggy wrote:
Seriously though, Racial Heritage: can it get me things from the Advanced Race Guide? Yes? No?

Jiggy, this is also the case for the Racial Heritage feat, which does not override the Additional Resources text that shows up under the Advanced Race Guide header.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.

Hmmm? How is it stronger than normal? If you multiclass it might save you on picking up boon companion but otherwise i don't see how its stronger.


Having an 18 level Animal Companion at level 12 wasn't stronger than a 12th level one at level 12?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Azten wrote:
Having an 18 level Animal Companion at level 12 wasn't stronger than a 12th level one at level 12?

What confuses me is the "Still" part of it. I don't see how you're still getting anything stronger than what the druid gets.


Using level 12 as the example again, as per the FAQ, an Elven Oracle's Animal companion would have 13 hit dice, while a Druid's animal companion would only have 10 hit dice.


Jiggy wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
Dead as in it will sit at level 4 and never get any credit or play again.
Why? The severity of your response seems disproportionate to the change; so much so that I wonder if you misread.

Ol' Fin is the guy who made a few posts on "Why I Dump Stat" and "Why I Exploit Rules" (or powergame, forget which) in which he was defending his choices of trying to make as powerful a character as possible so he could trivialize encounters.

His response made perfect sense to me, given those posts of his.


You can extreme, I call was ready for it to happen when Mr. brock announced he was changing the favored class benefit for elves and aasimars.

I built everything around the companion, feats traits, magical items. I built it aroudn the idea the favored class bonus. Now that is gone. I am stuck with revelations, items, a mystery, and feats. I no longer would take had I known that the rules would have changed.

Being dinked makes me no longer want to play the character.

I have 2 other characters I will no longer play that are dead to me because the DM in my area just softballed everything and wrecked the character for me.


Cheapy wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Finlanderboy wrote:
Dead as in it will sit at level 4 and never get any credit or play again.
Why? The severity of your response seems disproportionate to the change; so much so that I wonder if you misread.

Ol' Fin is the guy who made a few posts on "Why I Dump Stat" and "Why I Exploit Rules" (or powergame, forget which) in which he was defending his choices of trying to make as powerful a character as possible so he could trivialize encounters.

His response made perfect sense to me, given those posts of his.

I think it is a cheap shot to say why I exploit rules.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Azten wrote:
Using level 12 as the example again, as per the FAQ, an Elven Oracle's Animal companion would have 13 hit dice, while a Druid's animal companion would only have 10 hit dice.

DOh, reading brainfart, carry on.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Finlanderboy wrote:

You can extreme, I call was ready for it to happen when Mr. brock announced he was changing the favored class benefit for elves and aasimars.

I built everything around the companion, feats traits, magical items. I built it aroudn the idea the favored class bonus. Now that is gone. I am stuck with revelations, items, a mystery, and feats. I no longer would take had I known that the rules would have changed.

Being dinked makes me no longer want to play the character.

I have 2 other characters I will no longer play that are dead to me because the DM in my area just softballed everything and wrecked the character for me.

I get the impression you may be misinterpreting what I wrote. A nature or lunar oracle can still have a more powerful (read: "higher level") animal companion than her actual level would allow, but how much more powerful it gets to be has been reined in slightly. Take another look at the animal companion table.

At oracle level 3, you could have a "4th-level" animal companion.

At oracle level 6, you could have an "8th-level" animal companion (not a 9th level one) because your companion could have up to 7 HD.

At oracle level 9, you could have a "12th-level" animal companion (not a 13th-level one) because your companion could have up to 10 HD.

At oracle level 12, you could have a "16th-level" animal companion (not an 18th-level one) because your companion could have up to 13 HD.

My ruling slowed the super-accelerated growth of an animal companion, but it did not stop a nature or lunar oracle from having an above-average animal companion that outclasses a druid's animal companion in terms of effective druid level if not in terms of animal options. If this reduction from 150% druid level to approximately 133% druid level is cause for you to abandon the character, despite the provided options for limited rebuilding, there is little more that I can say. It is my impression that the provided rulings/clarifications were far more palatable than banning the favored class bonus outright.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Nashville aka Wolfspirit

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Azten wrote:
Using level 12 as the example again, as per the FAQ, an Elven Oracle's Animal companion would have 13 hit dice, while a Druid's animal companion would only have 10 hit dice.
DOh, reading brainfart, carry on.

To put things in perspective, this allows a level 12 Oracle to have an Animal Companion equivalent to a 16th level Druid. It does mean, however, that using the Favored Class Bonus to increase the Animal Companion would be "wasted" but could be put into a different Revelation or HP / Skills. There are a couple ranges this changes the Animal Companion's progression the most, but overall is fairly balanced.

For those that don't want to do the math, the best levels to use the Favored Class Bonus are 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, and 12 assuming a full progression Oracle. (I've got a spreadsheet, but the boards keep eating my formatting)

This means, for example, a 7th level Oracle following this progression would have an Effective Druid Level of 9, and would have 8HD, an Ability Score Increase, and Multi-attack.


I would have preffered to ban the whole feature.

The channeling is extremely powerful as well.

Although I do consider it unscrupulous for rebuild rules when things are changed.


But not nearly as much as an animal companion that can rip(or stomp) something to death before you need healing.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Texas—San Antonio aka Dragnmoon

John Compton wrote:

It's turned into a bit of both, and I'll have some clarifications on both. I suspect that nobody* will find the need to throw around the phrase "nerfed hardcore" once I post it.

*:
Spoiler:
I'm sure someone will do so just for giggles, but I can accept that.
Finlanderboy wrote:

I was correct about my oracle being nerfed hardcore.

Well that is now a dead character I will never play again.

Maybe he is only saying that just for giggles? ;)

Grand Lodge

John Compton wrote:


No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have.

I understand now that we're not allowed to intentionally increase a revelation we intend to acquire because we do not yet have it. Though seeing as how my Oracle 10 already has the revelation i have another question. Could i, through retraining, reassign all 10 of her FCB legally into a 7th level revelation because she already has it?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Poes law has to have a corollary in gaming somewhere..

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Kroama wrote:
John Compton wrote:


No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have.
I understand now that we're not allowed to intentionally increase a revelation we intend to acquire because we do not yet have it. Though seeing as how my Oracle 10 already has the revelation i have another question. Could i, through retraining, reassign all 10 of her FCB legally into a 7th level revelation because she already has it?

In my examination of the retraining subchapter of Ultimate Campaign, there is no option to retrain favored class bonuses.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

I think BNW meant with this "free retrain" that you're allowing.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Nefreet wrote:
I think BNW meant with this "free retrain" that you're allowing.

Thats my good twin.

I had a goatee but i ate it.

Grand Lodge

John Compton wrote:
Kroama wrote:
John Compton wrote:


No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have.
I understand now that we're not allowed to intentionally increase a revelation we intend to acquire because we do not yet have it. Though seeing as how my Oracle 10 already has the revelation i have another question. Could i, through retraining, reassign all 10 of her FCB legally into a 7th level revelation because she already has it?
In my examination of the retraining subchapter of Ultimate Campaign, there is no option to retrain favored class bonuses.

I did actually mean the free retrain you're permitting, as Nefreet mentioned. I also thought that you could retrain class levels as a means of retraining FCBs? (though that would be insanely expensive)

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Nefreet wrote:
I think BNW meant with this "free retrain" that you're allowing.

If you, BNW, and Kroama are talking about the same thing, the answer is no. Please do not use this opportunity to reassign improperly attributed favored class benefits in ways that a character could not replicate through natural growth.

For example, do not assign the your favored class bonus to a 7th-level revelation for levels 1–6. Likewise, do not assign the favored class bonus to an 11th-level revelation for levels 1–10.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Kroama wrote:
I did actually mean the free retrain you're permitting, as Nefreet mentioned. I also thought that you could retrain class levels as a means of retraining FCBs? (though that would be insanely expensive)

The "can't boost it 'till you got it" clarification and the absence of favored class bonus retraining under most circumstances actually factored heavily into the decision to leave the favored class option intact, as there were several other revelations out there—not thunderburst in particular—that we would have had to address independently. The more individual clarifications that a ruling would require, the more likely it would be that the root of the issue (in this case the favored class bonus itself) would just be removed entirely.


That would not be fair using the free retrain to give you something that is not possible within the rules for people not being given this exception.

Grand Lodge

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It's actually not too bad, just threw the 6 lost into armor FCB instead. The reason i tried to clarify is that i heard of people using feat retraining rules to do something of that sort~ retraining earlier feats after achieving requisites... such as a level 8 stat boost or necessary class features.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Kroama wrote:
The reason i tried to clarify is that i heard of people using feat retraining rules to do something of that sort~ retraining earlier feats after achieving requisites... such as a level 8 stat boost or something.

You can retrain stat boosts that you took at levels 4/8/12/etc.

Also, say you're level 6, with a +6 BAB. You can retrain that feat you took at 1st level into something that requires a +6 BAB.

The reverse isn't true, though. You can't retrain a feat you got at 5th level for something that requires you to take at 1st.

@John: I was just clarifying earlier for BNW, since I understood what he was asking. My Oracle is only 6th level. I'm happy with everything that was decided.

Shadow Lodge

Just off the top of my head, I think there are rebuild rules in the PFS guide that would allow retraining those FC points.

I might be wrong, I have neither the PFS guide in front of me and don't completely understand this oracle build, but the gist of what I remember is that if something is changed, anything directly affected can be rebuilt. Something similar happened with ability scores when the synthesist was banned.

(commence happy dance at the opportunity to relive the memory of the synthesist being banned)

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

In my perusal of the Advanced Race Guide this evening, I realized that ifrits and sylphs have similar favored class bonuses and would qualify for the limited rebuilding mentioned for elves and aasimars. Please include them in my earlier notes.

Shadow Lodge

Hate to ask this John
but is there a time table for when this gets added to the FAQ / Blog etc ... I have 1 player that plays with me in particular that's very resistant to rulings put into forums - regardless of who does it- and no matter how many times he's Told / shown etc. he fights me tooth and nail on things like this

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

John Compton wrote:

Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?

A character’s effective druid level for determining the abilities of her animal companion (based on Table 3–8 on page 52 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) cannot increase her animal companion’s Hit Dice above her actual character level + 1. An animal companion receives no additional abilities for its level unless it has the requisite number of Hit Dice; a character can increase her effective druid level further, though these effective levels do not grant any benefit until the character’s actual level increases. For example, a 12th-level aasimar oracle with the nature mystery and the bonded mount revelation could theoretically have an “18th-level” animal companion; however, her animal companion would only be “16th-level” for all abilities because the animal could not have more than 13 Hit Dice.

Well, looks like I've got a spare FCB coming up for my Oracle. Maybe I'll finally put a rank in Perception, and get it out of the negatives.

5/5

Many thanks for this. Half Elf sorcerer is finally a go.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Quick question on this one John, how would this affect racial traits? My half-orc has an orc trait (the regular kind) and I want to make sure that's kosher

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

John Compton wrote:

Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have?

Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?

Love both of these clarifications. Both have been hotly debated topics and these answers make sense with the rules.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

A little sad that Racial Heritage can't interact with the Advanced Race Guide. :( Well, at least it's settled. Thanks John!

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TOZ wrote:
I'm glad our Life Oracles will be able to continue supercharging our channels. :)

Basically this is my response. The Animal Companion revelations weren't nerfed badly at all, just a nice tweak to prevent SUPERTIGER from facerolling entire modules, and the amazing healing channel remains amazing.

I had to re-read the Animal Companion nerf five times for my brain to figure out what it was saying, but once it did, I supported it.


John Compton wrote:


Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.

This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.

Would a similar ruling apply for Magical Lineage? Or can you still take a spell that you don't have yet for the trait?

4/5

The Morphling wrote:
Basically this is my response. The Animal Companion revelations weren't nerfed badly at all, just a nice tweak to prevent SUPERTIGER from facerolling entire modules, and the amazing healing channel remains amazing.

Honestly, I don't really see the problem with superchanneling. My Life oracle, starting at level 5, had absolutely no problem healing the entire party to full every round (Thanks to quick channel), and he is a human. Not only that, because he is human, he gets far more buff and contingency spells available than the FCB channeling oracles.

I'm of the opinion that the FCB for humans is more overpowered than using the aasiamar FCB for channeling...for a life oracle at least.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Michael Meunier wrote:
Quick question on this one John, how would this affect racial traits? My half-orc has an orc trait (the regular kind) and I want to make sure that's kosher

You can't have orc traits as a half-orc.

1 I think this is also apply to traits
Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.

They don't count as orc for FC, so probably don't for trait.

2
Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

Don't count as orcs and are not orc, but if they were.

3
In Chapter 2, nothing from the catfolk, drow, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs, and ratfolk entries are currently legal for play.

None of the orc part is legal for play anyway.

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