The ARG "race restriction" and favored class bonuses


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5/5

Wraith235 wrote:
Personally Im fine with doing away with the Hybrid FCB (Half-elf Taking Elf, Half-Orc Taking Orc) as in My Opinion that's not the intent of the rules

Personally I would be really disappointed if they did that. It actually makes two rather underrepresented races quite a bit more viable and certainly feels entirely in keeping with what Elf Blood and Orc Blood actually say.

Quote:

however Removing FCB from the Races that they were intended for (Aasimar Oracle FCB on an Aasimar, Elf Oracle FCB on an Elf) I am not a fan of

yes it is on the OP Side but far from the most OP thing in the game right now .. and for the most part everything I've seen from this is focused into a support Character ... and it takes a special type of person to be able to play one of those

-Note- I did say "For the Most part*

I also don't see a problem with the Elf/Aasimar Oracle FCB. By level 12 you are talking about a maximum of 6 levels on one single revelation. Hardly game breaking.

5/5 5/55/55/5

andreww wrote:


I also don't see a problem with the Elf/Aasimar Oracle FCB. By level 12 you are talking about a maximum of 6 levels on one single revelation. Hardly game breaking.

Its got a few game breaking combos, like a level 18 axebeak or a color spray that treats the tarasque like a 1 hit die kobold.

5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
andreww wrote:


I also don't see a problem with the Elf/Aasimar Oracle FCB. By level 12 you are talking about a maximum of 6 levels on one single revelation. Hardly game breaking.

Its got a few game breaking combos, like a level 18 axebeak or a color spray that treats the tarasque like a 1 hit die kobold.

It doesn't affect Awesome Display as that effect is based on your Charisma Modifier not level. Bonded Mount might be an issue but as a medium creature you are limited to a camel or horse. It might be an issue with Primal Companion from the Lunar Mystery but again you are limited to a fixed list. I suppose a 15HD Wolf at level 12 would be pretty good but giving up an extra two spells known every level is a fairly big downside for it.

4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Tennessee—Nashville aka Wolfspirit

andreww wrote:


Bonded Mount might be an issue but as a medium creature you are limited to a camel or horse. It might be an issue with Primal Companion from the Lunar Mystery but again you are limited to a fixed list. I suppose a 15HD Wolf at level 12 would be pretty good but giving up an extra two spells known every level is a fairly big downside for it.

The Tiger is a scarier option for the Lunar Oracle's companion. For a Nature Oracle, however, there is at least one prevalent route of expanding the list of potential Mounts, as Big Norse Wolf was was alluding to.

Really, the Favored Class Bonus becomes problematic at higher levels when it starts to break the level cap and give access to class abilities higher than otherwise achievable. A few examples are being able to Greater Polymorph, having a Channel Positive Energy higher than a Cleric can get, etc.

I imagine that it wouldn't be an issue if there was a limit to the number of times you could increase a specific Revelation.

5/5

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Michael Brock wrote:

It's coming. The VOs and I are hammering out the language now and the ruling will be posted in the next few days. Just as a head's up, no Orc options are going to be allowed. Aasimars and Tieflings are not going to be able to choose other racial options. We are debating the elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), and is most likely going to be removed as an option. There are a few other things we still need to look at, but you have a basis to work from now.

Like I said, final wording will be formulated over the next few days and posted here as well as the FAQ. I'm off to a Super Bowl party so won't be here to respond the rest of the evening.

Does this mean the Aasimar or Elf Racial Bonuses are going away?

Yeah, I kinda built my Aasimar Life Oracle around channeling. If this gets removed then this will basically break the entire character concept. It feels like I'm about to have the nerf bat broken off in my backside. Channel Energy is great...but it takes a TON of feats to make it usable.

The real irony of this is that Bastards of Golarion just came out. At this rate half of that entire book is likely going to be banned.

Shadow Lodge

Soluzar wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:

It's coming. The VOs and I are hammering out the language now and the ruling will be posted in the next few days. Just as a head's up, no Orc options are going to be allowed. Aasimars and Tieflings are not going to be able to choose other racial options. We are debating the elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), and is most likely going to be removed as an option. There are a few other things we still need to look at, but you have a basis to work from now.

Like I said, final wording will be formulated over the next few days and posted here as well as the FAQ. I'm off to a Super Bowl party so won't be here to respond the rest of the evening.

Does this mean the Aasimar or Elf Racial Bonuses are going away?

Yeah, I kinda built my Aasimar Life Oracle around channeling. If this gets removed then this will basically break the entire character concept. It feels like I'm about to have the nerf bat broken off in my backside. Channel Energy is great...but it takes a TON of feats to make it usable.

The real irony of this is that Bastards of Golarion just came out. At this rate half of that entire book is likely going to be banned.

Breaking it will probably mess with a whole bunch of feats as well... so yeah, we would need free rebuild.

Perhaps just a campaign wide ban on FCB would be the best? idk

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Keht wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
The elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), is most likely going to be removed as an option.
I hope there is a free character rebuild, this is a fairly heavy hit to a elf oracle.

I have a character using the same option. If there is no free rebuild, I just won't be playing that character anymore.


I wonder if it would be as bad if the FCB for Elven and aasimar oracles would be just +1/4 level instead of +1/2?

Would that hurt the builds? A little, but not as badly as just getting rid of it all together.

Shadow Lodge

Azten wrote:

I wonder if it would be as bad if the FCB for Elven and aasimar oracles would be just +1/4 level instead of +1/2?

Would that hurt the builds? A little, but not as badly as just getting rid of it all together.

If it was 1/4th, I likely would not have it as an Oracle of Life because it would have very limited benefit in the scope of PFS.

For example, with channeling, at 4th level you could channel as 5th, and then at 8th as 10th, you wouldn't get another increase until 12th. +3 to channeling level is a lot weaker then +6 for sure.

If I was a nature Oracle taking it for the animal companion, I might still be interested in +3.


What about +1/3? That's a +4 at level 12, instead of +3, and +6 at level 20 instead of +10.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Brian Darnell wrote:
Keht wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
The elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), is most likely going to be removed as an option.
I hope there is a free character rebuild, this is a fairly heavy hit to a elf oracle.
I have a character using the same option. If there is no free rebuild, I just won't be playing that character anymore.

I thought this would fall under the normal rules for removed options, in that the character MUST be rebuilt in order to continue play.

Shadow Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Brian Darnell wrote:
Keht wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
The elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), is most likely going to be removed as an option.
I hope there is a free character rebuild, this is a fairly heavy hit to a elf oracle.
I have a character using the same option. If there is no free rebuild, I just won't be playing that character anymore.
I thought this would fall under the normal rules for removed options, in that the character MUST be rebuilt in order to continue play.

Favored class bonuses are not covered in the rebuild rules in the current guide, however I'd think that you'd follow the following.

If a feat or trait changes or is removed from the Additional Resources list: You have two options. First, you may either switch the old feat for an updated feat of the same name in another legal source (if available), ignoring any prerequisites of the new feat you do not meet. Alternatively, you may replace the feat entirely with another feat for which you meet all the prerequisites.

Replacing feat with favored class bonus in the relevant text. Such a change would not be a class, prestige class, or a class feature-dependent ability score which is what would need to be changed for a complete rebuild.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Drat. Saw 6 new posts and thought maybe a decision had been reached =(.

Shadow Lodge

IMHO ... the best thing to do - if they are gonna nerf it like that - is to cap the effect at character level ...

it doesn't gut it ... but is still a significant Nerf

Oracles could add a level of fighter or something to make them a little more survivable

my big concern is how far is this gonna reach ... is it just Oracles that are gonna be hit ? or any +1/2 level FCB's

Shadow Lodge

Wraith235 wrote:
my big concern is how far is this gonna reach ... is it just Oracles that are gonna be hit ? or any +1/2 level FCB's

I believe just the Oracles, as the issue seems to be that they can 1) channel better then a cleric 2) have a better animal companion then a druid.

For example, my Oracle of Life is currently level 5 and has put every FCB into channeling, and therefore channels at level 7, meaning my DCs are higher and I have more channel dice then a cleric of the same level. No other class has the ability to increase things like effective cleric level for channeling or effective druid level for animal companion*.

*: Ignoring Boon Companion which specifically caps at HD, and magical items.

3/5

the oracle revelation FCB that both elves and Aasimar get is really potent. many people take it just for channeling (as a life oracle), but IMHO it is better served by other abilities, such as:

ancestral weapon (ancestor): being able to summon a +1 ghost touch weapon for 12 minutes a day as an 8th level character is pretty potent.

spirit shield/air barrier/armor of bones: having the level 13 benefit of this ability at level 9 is fairly huge (many of them give 50% miss chance or DR).

That's not even talking about the fact that you can choose a revelation that you can't use yet. imagine taking thunderburst at 11th level and having taken the elf FC bonus for it. you'd be a 17th level caster (dealing 17d6) and be able to use it 2/day. At 20th level, you'd be a 30th level caster, able to use it 5/day. or having immunity to an element (via acid skin and similar abilities for all the elemental mysteries) as a 12th level character.

no other FC bonus I've seen is as good.

Shadow Lodge

Dylos wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:
my big concern is how far is this gonna reach ... is it just Oracles that are gonna be hit ? or any +1/2 level FCB's

I believe just the Oracles, as the issue seems to be that they can 1) channel better then a cleric 2) have a better animal companion then a druid.

For example, my Oracle of Life is currently level 5 and has put every FCB into channeling, and therefore channels at level 7, meaning my DCs are higher and I have more channel dice then a cleric of the same level. No other class has the ability to increase things like effective cleric level for channeling or effective druid level for animal companion*.

*: Ignoring Boon Companion which specifically caps at HD, and magical items.

I hope your right ... though I have my doubts

and I have a Life Oracle as well so I know how powerful it is but I also know it takes a special kind of person to play a life oracle and its combat effectiveness is less than limited (outside of heals)

I still believe that capping the effect at character level is a better option that outright banning it

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

The ruling is going through a last round of revision, so folks will see it soon.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

John Compton wrote:
The ruling is going through a last round of revision, so folks will see it soon.

Now, I've sort of lost track, but are we talking about a ruling on FCBs in general, or a ruling on the other issue of whether PCs of one race who have the ability to be treated as another race (half-elves/half-orcs, Racial Heritage feat, etc) can take options from the ARG, or just a ruling relating to where those two topics intersect?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
John Compton wrote:
The ruling is going through a last round of revision, so folks will see it soon.
Now, I've sort of lost track, but are we talking about a ruling on FCBs in general, or a ruling on the other issue of whether PCs of one race who have the ability to be treated as another race (half-elves/half-orcs, Racial Heritage feat, etc) can take options from the ARG, or just a ruling relating to where those two topics intersect?

Like Compton says, you'll see it when it comes out. It apparantly is mostly done, it sounds like they're finetuning the language.


I think my nature oracle is going to be nerfed hardcore.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Jiggy wrote:
John Compton wrote:
The ruling is going through a last round of revision, so folks will see it soon.
Now, I've sort of lost track, but are we talking about a ruling on FCBs in general, or a ruling on the other issue of whether PCs of one race who have the ability to be treated as another race (half-elves/half-orcs, Racial Heritage feat, etc) can take options from the ARG, or just a ruling relating to where those two topics intersect?

It's turned into a bit of both, and I'll have some clarifications on both. I suspect that nobody* will find the need to throw around the phrase "nerfed hardcore" once I post it.

*:
I'm sure someone will do so just for giggles, but I can accept that.


John Compton wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
John Compton wrote:
The ruling is going through a last round of revision, so folks will see it soon.
Now, I've sort of lost track, but are we talking about a ruling on FCBs in general, or a ruling on the other issue of whether PCs of one race who have the ability to be treated as another race (half-elves/half-orcs, Racial Heritage feat, etc) can take options from the ARG, or just a ruling relating to where those two topics intersect?

It's turned into a bit of both, and I'll have some clarifications on both. I suspect that nobody* will find the need to throw around the phrase "nerfed hardcore" once I post it.

** spoiler omitted **

Ohh awesome. I am sorry I did not mean it disparingly. I understand that the favored class bonus for oracle is too powerful and would not be upset if it got changed.

I was just guessing from what Mr. Brock stated earlier. If you remove that favored class benefit I would agree with that judgement.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Now Jiggy has me curious as well. I thought the only question was whether the ARG Additional Resources restriction applied to Half-elves, but now I'm wondering if it's something larger...

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Finlanderboy wrote:
John Compton wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
John Compton wrote:
The ruling is going through a last round of revision, so folks will see it soon.
Now, I've sort of lost track, but are we talking about a ruling on FCBs in general, or a ruling on the other issue of whether PCs of one race who have the ability to be treated as another race (half-elves/half-orcs, Racial Heritage feat, etc) can take options from the ARG, or just a ruling relating to where those two topics intersect?

It's turned into a bit of both, and I'll have some clarifications on both. I suspect that nobody* will find the need to throw around the phrase "nerfed hardcore" once I post it.

** spoiler omitted **

Ohh awesome. I am sorry I did not mean it disparingly. I understand that the favored class bonus for oracle is too powerful and would not be upset if it got changed.

I was just guessing from what Mr. Brock stated earlier. If you remove that favored class benefit I would agree with that judgement.

No worries. I know that developers hopping in to make ambiguous statements about definitive rulings can make people a little anxious.


Now, when you say soon, do you mean hours or days?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Azten wrote:
Now, when you say soon, do you mean hours or days?

Hours

5/5 5/55/55/5

John Compton wrote:
Azten wrote:
Now, when you say soon, do you mean hours or days?
Hours

[rules lawyer] Like less than 23 of them or 476 of them? [/rules lawyer]


1 person marked this as a favorite.

omgz... leave the poor guy alone

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Well if we go by the book, days could seem like hours...

I think I've got that backwards...

Shadow Lodge

Watching this carefully. I have a half-elf Bard Master of Many Masterpieces who would be very sad if he can no longer use his human favored class bonus to get additional masterpieces.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I started this thread in October. I can wait a few more hours.


Around fifteen hours now, and the Elven community is starting to get... rowdy.

Shadow Lodge

Elves? Rowdy? Never.


Damned elves.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Azten wrote:
Around fifteen hours now, and the Elven community is starting to get... rowdy.

Oh good. I've never seen anyone leave in a stretch snit before...

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Azten wrote:
Now, when you say soon, do you mean hours or days?

Colonel Sandurz: Try here. Stop.

Dark Helmet: What the hell am I looking at?! When does this happen in the movie?!
Colonel Sandurz: "Now". You're looking at "now", sir. Everything that happens now is happening "now".
Dark Helmet: What happened to "then"?
Colonel Sandurz: We passed "then".
Dark Helmet: When?
Colonel Sandurz: Just now. Were at "now," now.
Dark Helmet: Go back to "then"!
Colonel Sandurz: When?
Dark Helmet: Now!
Colonel Sandurz: Now?
Dark Helmet: Now!
Colonel Sandurz: I can't.
Dark Helmet: Why?!
Colonel Sandurz: We missed it.
Dark Helmet: When?!
Colonel Sandurz: Just now.
Dark Helmet: ... When will "then" be "now"?
Colonel Sandurz: Soon.
Dark Helmet: How soon?

Shadow Lodge

I think what probably happened is paizo closed for the night before things got 100% finalized ... and its only 7:45 am over there now

tho I still find myself constantly refreshing

Grand Lodge

I'm eager to see the final ruling on the Oracle FCB that Elves and Aasimars get, in regards to if it's removed or changed.

My Idylkin has become my favorite character to play in Society games and her core is built around a FCB pumped Thunderburst revelation. A lot of RP value in her personality around using thunder and being deaf.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The delay on this ruling is delaying the creation of three of my characters. Eager to hear what the ruling is.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

24 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 109 people marked this as a favorite.

Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.

Related Point: Can I apply the aasimar or elf oracle's favored class bonus to a revelation I do not yet have? Can I do so for the aasimar bard’s favored class bonus?
No, when choosing which class feature’s effective level to increase, you can only select a feature that you already have. For example, an aasimar flame oracle cannot choose to improve the wings of fire revelation with her favored class bonus until she actually gains the revelation at 7th level or beyond; she could not start augmenting it at 1st level.

This isn’t actually a new rule. It’s just a clarification that I confirmed with the design team because it seemed that some folks were assuming otherwise.

Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?
A character’s effective druid level for determining the abilities of her animal companion (based on Table 3–8 on page 52 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) cannot increase her animal companion’s Hit Dice above her actual character level + 1. An animal companion receives no additional abilities for its level unless it has the requisite number of Hit Dice; a character can increase her effective druid level further, though these effective levels do not grant any benefit until the character’s actual level increases. For example, a 12th-level aasimar oracle with the nature mystery and the bonded mount revelation could theoretically have an “18th-level” animal companion; however, her animal companion would only be “16th-level” for all abilities because the animal could not have more than 13 Hit Dice.

This is a conscious modification to how the rules work for the few cases that would allow a character to have an animal companion with a higher effective level than she does—primarily related to oracles’ use of the aasimar and elf alternate favored class bonuses. Such characters can still receive considerable benefits from such an investment of favored class points, but the mechanical edge is not as overwhelming for an ability that is persistent and potentially game-changing. The above information will be included in an FAQ entry, and a note will appear in the Additional Resources entry for Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide.

Do I get to rebuild?
An aasimar or elf affected by this change may freely change her race, favored class point assignments, and any character options (e.g. feats, race-specific spells and archetypes, etc.) dependent on being a member of that race.

I understand that some folks may only be playing an aasimar or elf because of the extraordinarily potent favored class bonuses. This change may have made some of those favored class bonus assignments redundant or illegal. Perhaps this “ruins” your character and you want to reconsider your race choice. I’m fine with you changing these things. Everything else (e.g. mystery, revelations, non-race-specific archetype, ability scores, etc.) follows the retraining rules printed in Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Campaign.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

Very nicely done, John.


I agree. Well done.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Looks like a great clarification on the rules here. I am glad to see that this did not just get banned. I know one oracle that will be sad about the minimum level clarification (he was using this for Wind's Thunderburst revelation), but I think this is a fair ruling and making a somewhat separate distinction for the animal companion think is completely reasonable, they can still be quite potent. Thanks for this!

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

John Compton wrote:


Related Point: Can I have an 18th-level animal companion at level 12?
A character’s effective druid level for determining the abilities of her animal companion (based on Table 3–8 on page 52 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook) cannot increase her animal companion’s Hit Dice above her actual character level + 1. An animal companion receives no additional abilities for its level unless it has the requisite number of Hit Dice; a character can increase her effective druid level further, though these effective levels do not grant any benefit until the character’s actual level increases. For example, a 12th-level aasimar oracle with the nature mystery and the bonded mount revelation could theoretically have an “18th-level” animal companion; however, her animal companion would only be “16th-level” for all abilities because the animal could not have more than 13 Hit Dice.

I have* a human Lunar Oracle with Nature Soul and Animal Ally who then took the animal companion discovery at level 7. Previously his animal companion would have been level 11 equivalent (9HD). Now instead it will be capped at level 9 equivalent (8HD).

When I take a level of fighter at 8, will my Animal Companion HD cap be 9 or still 8?

*Character has not been played above level 1 yet, just applying Dragon's Demand stuff, so rebuilding is not an issue at least.

PS. Great job and thank you for your hard work.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Thanks John! Though, this doesn't seem to speak to the Racial Heritage feat's inability to do its job with feats from the ARG. Anything in the works for that?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pirate Rob wrote:

I have* a human Lunar Oracle with Nature Soul and Animal Ally who then took the animal companion discovery at level 7. Previously his animal companion would have been level 11 equivalent (9HD). Now instead it will be capped at level 9 equivalent (8HD).

When I take a level of fighter at 8, will my Animal Companion HD cap be 9 or still 8?

At that point your character level would be 8, so your animal companion's maximum Hit Dice would increase as well; the rule cites one's character level rather than her combined class level for classes that grant an animal companion. Using the favored class bonus to cover some of the losses due to multiclassing is a great use of the character option.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

John Compton wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:

I have* a human Lunar Oracle with Nature Soul and Animal Ally who then took the animal companion discovery at level 7. Previously his animal companion would have been level 11 equivalent (9HD). Now instead it will be capped at level 9 equivalent (8HD).

When I take a level of fighter at 8, will my Animal Companion HD cap be 9 or still 8?

At that point your character level would be 8, so your animal companion's maximum Hit Dice would increase as well; the rule cites one's character level rather than her combined class level for classes that grant an animal companion. Using the favored class bonus to cover some of the losses due to multiclassing is a great use of the character option.

Thanks for the quick response, appreciate it.

Shadow Lodge

So the Elf/Aasimar/Ifrit FCB is only modified for the Animal Companion but not for channeling? Since the channeling can only be used offensively against undead that's probably an ok thing.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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I'm glad our Life Oracles will be able to continue supercharging our channels. :)

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