The ARG "race restriction" and favored class bonuses


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5/5

Extra Spells Known is pretty much the best form of FCB for any spontaneous character out there.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

Azouth wrote:
Michael Meunier wrote:
Quick question on this one John, how would this affect racial traits? My half-orc has an orc trait (the regular kind) and I want to make sure that's kosher

You can't have orc traits as a half-orc.

Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.

That doesn't actually answer his question, Azouth. John was expressly referring to Favored Class Bonuses, not Traits.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Walter Sheppard wrote:
Azouth wrote:
Michael Meunier wrote:
Quick question on this one John, how would this affect racial traits? My half-orc has an orc trait (the regular kind) and I want to make sure that's kosher

You can't have orc traits as a half-orc.

Favored Class Bonus for Half-Elves and Half-Orcs
For the purpose of qualifying for favored class bonuses, half-elves are also treated as both elves and humans, and half-orcs are also treated as humans (but not orcs)—a byproduct of their respective elf blood and orc blood racial traits. Only characters that have the elf blood or orc blood racial trait count as a member of another race for this purpose.

That doesn't actually answer his question, Azouth. John was expressly referring to Favored Class Bonuses, not Traits.

Sorry realized after posting and edited it.

short answer

In Chapter 2, nothing from the catfolk, drow, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs, and ratfolk entries are currently legal for play.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

There aren't any Orc Race Traits in the ARG, so I'm confused where he's finding them...

Grand Lodge 4/5

There are traits in Orcs of Golarion, but those are for both Half-Orcs and full Orcs if I'm remembering correctly.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Just skimmed the ArchivesOfNethys, and it appears there are no Orc-only Traits in Pathfinder.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Nefreet wrote:
There aren't any Orc Race Traits in the ARG, so I'm confused where he's finding them...

There are 4 orc alternate race traits from ARG.

Dayrunner
Feral
Smeller
Squalid

And half-orc would only able to take feral. As the others replace things they don't have.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

*facepalm*

Those are "Racial Traits". Not "Race Traits". Newbie mistake #7, Racial Traits are only available to members of that race. Not even half-breeds qualify.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I thought that was what he was asking about.

"Quick question on this one John, how would this affect racial traits?"

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

This does not impact Racial Traits in the slightest bit.

Your Half-orc was never able to take Orc Racial Traits in the first place. Beginner mistake.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

What is he asking about then?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Clearly he's asking about Racial Traits, and wasn't aware it's a moot question.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

on subject of racial fcb... do the new classes count as their base classes for purpose of qualifying for the fcb?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dame Kerline wrote:
on subject of racial fcb... do the new classes count as their base classes for purpose of qualifying for the fcb?

Can't remember where i read it but, yes.

A ninja is a rogue, ect.

Don't know about the ACG.


Azouth wrote:
Dame Kerline wrote:
on subject of racial fcb... do the new classes count as their base classes for purpose of qualifying for the fcb?

Can't remember where i read it but, yes.

A ninja is a rogue, ect.

Don't know about the ACG.

Citation #1

Citation #2

Citation #3

5/5

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The position of ACG classes was never confirmed during the playtest. For now the answer appears to be no.


andreww wrote:
The position of ACG classes was never confirmed during the playtest. For now the answer appears to be no.

Oh, d'oh! Misread the post I replied to.

Yea, the ACG classes do not currently count as their base classes. Alternative Classes, which these aren't, do.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dame Kerline wrote:
on subject of racial fcb... do the new classes count as their base classes for purpose of qualifying for the fcb?

As far as Favored Class Bonuses, it has been confirmed as no. (Forgive me for not remembering the source, but this has been given an official answer). You may not take alternate FCBs for the Advanced Class Guide classes.

Yet.


Nice ruling! And thanks for the clarification regarding the Aasimar FCB for bards. I was looking at an Aasimar Arcane Duelist a while back, but I couldn't figure out if I could 'stockpile' FCB's for Bladethirst during the early levels. This answers that question.

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover aka Hayato Ken

Totally missed that on Sylphs and ifrit(i?).
For both it should probably not only count for the oracle FCB, but the sorcerer FCB too. I´m looking at you, sylvan sorcerer.

Shadow Lodge

Benjamin Falk wrote:

Totally missed that on Sylphs and ifrit(i?).

For both it should probably not only count for the oracle FCB, but the sorcerer FCB too. I´m looking at you, sylvan sorcerer.

The Sylph and Ifrit Sorcerer FCB doesn't work with Sylvan Sorcerer.

Ifrit is elemental (fire) bloodline or the efreeti bloodline
Sylph is djinni or elemental (air) bloodline
And both of those cap at +4.


Alright, stopped watching this for a while, and I have a few characters this ruling will effect. I am happy with this ruling and think it seems fair! Great job guys.

Shadow Lodge

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This really should be held up as the gold standard of "how to nerf a powerful option." It allows the people who used the option to remain powerful, but just nudges them back into non-game-breaking territory.

The Exchange 4/5

My Head Hurts, trying to keep up here.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.

For some that's not enough. These folks will be those who took Asimar oracles for NO OTHER REASON than to face roll encounters with a Supermax Dire Tiger. They'll be the ones screaming bloody murder over what for any reasonable player is merely a sane adjustment.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

LazarX wrote:
Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.
For some that's not enough. These folks will be those who took Asimar oracles for NO OTHER REASON than to face roll encounters with a Supermax Dire Tiger. They'll be the ones screaming bloody murder over what for any reasonable player is merely a sane adjustment.

They're also the ones, for whom I, to quote Spike, "I find myself overwhelmed with not caring very much."

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.
For some that's not enough. These folks will be those who took Asimar oracles for NO OTHER REASON than to face roll encounters with a Supermax Dire Tiger. They'll be the ones screaming bloody murder over what for any reasonable player is merely a sane adjustment.

But someone who thinks being nerfed from "I can solo the scenario easily" to "I can solo the scenario with some difficulty" is 'bloody murder' are welcome to whine.

Grand Lodge

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I keep a bucket handy for munchkin tears. Just a dash to season my salad. The filings from the gnashed teeth can be a problem though.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Um, folks, don't you think it's possible that the super-companions could have been used for a character who wasn't a [insert term of contempt]? There was a recently-locked thread in which the OP claimed to want a non-optimal animal companion raised to a high enough level to work as a fun, role-playing aspect. I'll take him at his word.

I agree that John's ruling is a good middle ground between banning a useful character aspect and letting an overpowered choice run rampant. But it has the effect of eliminating some choices that some players haven't been exploiting to break the system.


Non-optimal animal companions still do just fine, and don't need to be boosted to super high levels to be viable. If the player's expectation is that it's meant to be as good as pounce-kitty, then that's more a problem with the expectations.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:

Um, folks, don't you think it's possible that the super-companions could have been used for a character who wasn't a [insert term of contempt]? There was a recently-locked thread in which the OP claimed to want a non-optimal animal companion raised to a high enough level to work as a fun, role-playing aspect. I'll take him at his word.

I agree that John's ruling is a good middle ground between banning a useful character aspect and letting an overpowered choice run rampant. But it has the effect of eliminating some choices that some players haven't been exploiting to break the system.

Of course! And the choices weren't eliminated, just rolled back very slightly.

The nerf only reduces your effective druid level by 1 at levels 4, and 6 through 11. At level 12, it finally reduces your effective druid level by a whopping two.

It won't be damaging to most players, even munchkins. Just takes the edge off.


LazarX wrote:
Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.
For some that's not enough. These folks will be those who took Asimar oracles for NO OTHER REASON than to face roll encounters with a Supermax Dire Tiger. They'll be the ones screaming bloody murder over what for any reasonable player is merely a sane adjustment.

FYI, asimar nature oracles can have a horse or camel. Have you ever seen a horse or camel wreck a scenario?

Why don't you bother to look up the rules before putting down others?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Furious Kender wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.
For some that's not enough. These folks will be those who took Asimar oracles for NO OTHER REASON than to face roll encounters with a Supermax Dire Tiger. They'll be the ones screaming bloody murder over what for any reasonable player is merely a sane adjustment.

FYI, asimar nature oracles can have a horse or camel. Have you ever seen a horse or camel wreck a scenario?

Why don't you bother to look up the rules before putting down others?

Kindly consider character options outside the hardcover books, and even then, I'd rather we read questions of "how do you accomplish that" than accusations of ignorance.

Blood of the Moon:
The lunar oracle mystery opens access to about half a dozen other animal companions, including big cat.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
John Compton wrote:
Furious Kender wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Azten wrote:
Just seems like an extreme reaction. You still get a stronger than normal animal companion, something Druids can't get.
For some that's not enough. These folks will be those who took Asimar oracles for NO OTHER REASON than to face roll encounters with a Supermax Dire Tiger. They'll be the ones screaming bloody murder over what for any reasonable player is merely a sane adjustment.

FYI, asimar nature oracles can have a horse or camel. Have you ever seen a horse or camel wreck a scenario?

Why don't you bother to look up the rules before putting down others?

Kindly consider character options outside the hardcover books, and even then, I'd rather we read questions of "how do you accomplish that" than accusations of ignorance.

** spoiler omitted **

And there's one or two boons/feats that open up even more options for the Nature Mystery.

(And hell to the yes, a Celestial Horse Nature Mystery Animal Companion with FCB can be an absolute terror.)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

The problem is that to raise a sub optimal companion to effectiveness you can do one of two things.

1. Apply a specific boost to the set of sub optimal companions to bring them up to par with the super optimal creatures. Then both sets are fun to play.

2. Create a boost that makes all companions more powerful, this is what the FCB did. By it's very nature, if this method makes a sub optimal companion viable, it makes a super optimal companion overpowering.

I feel like the complaint that without this you can't make make a suboptimal companion viable, is like the complaint that there needs to be a FCB that lets you add +1 / two levels to your attack damage, because without it, you can't play a viable character who hits people with a riding crop, and you have a great character idea for a guy who fights using only a riding crop.


I do not think any lunar or nature oracle would do much against a 30+ strength Spinosaurus and their 3 attacks.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

So I can still use Racial Heritage to get Gnome and other base and (Tengu/Tiefling/Aasimar) traits and feats, right? I can't get say... Kobold feats that allows me to grow tails, correct?

Shadow Lodge

thaX wrote:
So I can still use Racial Heritage to get Gnome and other base and (Tengu/Tiefling/Aasimar) traits and feats, right? I can't get say... Kobold feats that allows me to grow tails, correct?

Tiefling and Aasimar are not legal choices for racial heritage because they are not humanoids, additionally, Racial heritage does not cover ANYTHING in the Advanced Race Guide, but it does work for books older then the ARG such as the Advanced Players Guide or Orcs of Golarion.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Sure. Meet my Str 25 Tiger, who has Rake, Pounce, Grab, Scent, Low Light Vision.

You get 3 attacks if you don't move. I get 3 attacks whether I move or not, get free grabs, can move 40 feet to your 30, oh and by the way, did I mention that at level seven, I have 2 more hit dice than you, and multi attack which you won't get for another level. My tiger also doesn't get a -4 to intimidate.

I hope that +3 damage helps you.

Silver Crusade 2/5

FLite wrote:

Sure. Meet my Str 25 Tiger, who has Rake, Pounce, Grab, Scent, Low Light Vision.

You get 3 attacks if you don't move. I get 3 attacks and if I charge, two more ...

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Ohh.... Wolf is even better, with charge by:

I charge past you, trip, and move 45 more feet.

Your turn, you get up, move up to 30 feet toward me.

I charge past you, trip you, and move 45 feet past.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I mean seriously, have you read primal companion? It is full of win buttons.

Horse is pretty uninspiring, but camel comes with a free at will range touch attack no save debuff.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

DesolateHarmony wrote:
FLite wrote:

Sure. Meet my Str 25 Tiger, who has Rake, Pounce, Grab, Scent, Low Light Vision.

You get 3 attacks if you don't move. I get 3 attacks and if I charge, two more ...

I was going to add something like that, but realized that it had been a while since I read rake, and I need to go read it and pounce to figure out how many attacks that is.

Dark Archive 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FLite wrote:

Ohh.... Wolf is even better, with charge by:

I charge past you, trip, and move 45 more feet.

Your turn, you get up, move up to 30 feet toward me.

I charge past you, trip you, and move 45 feet past.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

I mean seriously, have you read primal companion? It is full of win buttons.

Horse is pretty uninspiring, but camel comes with a free at will range touch attack no save debuff.

Where/what is Charge By? I don't see a feat with that description anywhere, including in the primal companion revelation.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ride-By%20Attack

Ride-by Attack. You have to have it, not your mount. And you have to be riding the wolf at the time.

Alternately,

http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spring%20Attack

Spring Attack.

More expensive, but a lot more flexibility.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

Dylos wrote:
thaX wrote:
So I can still use Racial Heritage to get Gnome and other base and (Tengu/Tiefling/Aasimar) traits and feats, right? I can't get say... Kobold feats that allows me to grow tails, correct?
Tiefling and Aasimar are not legal choices for racial heritage because they are not humanoids, additionally, Racial heritage does not cover ANYTHING in the Advanced Race Guide, but it does work for books older then the ARG such as the Advanced Players Guide or Orcs of Golarion.

Ah, drat, outsiders!!...

Gotcha.

We had a thread a bit ago about a Kobold feat taken by a Human. I believe it was a home game...

Oh, and the Aasimar can take Racial Heritage if he has Scion of Humanity. That brings up so many wonderful combonations...

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

thaX wrote:
Oh, and the Aasimar can take Racial Heritage if he has Scion of Humanity. That brings up so many wonderful combinations...

Like what?

Shadow Lodge

There are very few things that are worth taking Racial Heritage for, even as an Aasimar, I mean the Aasimar could take Racial Heritage Orc for access to the half orc feats in Orcs of Golarion, but at that point you are cutting into feats so much that I almost think it would be better to just be a half orc.

Though it does raise the possibility of having a barbarian with Angel Wings, Amplified Rage and Warleader's Rage, but it would cost so many feats to do that it would be unlikely to be viable, and you would probably just be better off playing a Half Orc with an item that gives flight.

Dark Archive 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FLite wrote:

http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ride-By%20Attack

Ride-by Attack. You have to have it, not your mount. And you have to be riding the wolf at the time.

Alternately,

http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spring%20Attack

Spring Attack.

More expensive, but a lot more flexibility.

Gotcha, I was looking at the spring attack chain for my wolf companion for my sylvan wildblooded sorcerer. He doesn't really like getting messy in melee though, so riding Fluffy Jr is not an option. He is flying around invisibly and buffing her instead. :-)

Shadow Lodge

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Nefreet wrote:
thaX wrote:
Oh, and the Aasimar can take Racial Heritage if he has Scion of Humanity. That brings up so many wonderful combinations...
Like what?

Lots of things!

...outside of PFS.


The Morphling wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
thaX wrote:
Oh, and the Aasimar can take Racial Heritage if he has Scion of Humanity. That brings up so many wonderful combinations...
Like what?

Lots of things!

...outside of PFS.

Mostly you don't have enough feats even to take advantage of that even outside PFS, though.

The cool stuff takes feats and the more powerful classes (casters mostly) tend to be feat-starved, you see. Depends on the people you're running with, of course.
_______

Of course, with that caveat, things like being a small-sized Aasimar (banned in PFS) with scion of humanity and RH:Orc who is a Scarred Witch Doctor (banned in PFS) or Synthesist Summoner (banned in PFS) or whatever other class / archetype you prefer, and riding a celestial Pteranadon (Nature Soul, Animal Ally, Beast Rider (barred from non half-orcs in PFS), Celestial Servant) is kind of fun.

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