The ARG "race restriction" and favored class bonuses


Pathfinder Society

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Matthew Morris wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Hey guys, any thoughts on this yet? Holiday weekend is over and you'll should be back. Have a character I need to figure out if I can make him a half-elf or if he's stuck being an Aasmir.
Patience my young apprentice. Make him a half elf, not every character needs every advantage. :-)

I am being patient, just twiddling my thumbs waiting for my answer.....

Still waiting....

Grand Lodge 5/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.

Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.
Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.

And what other lethal traps do you have for snooping PFS players? Have they snagged any interns by "mistake"?

"Call the University, we need another Timmy!"

I'm getting the feeling that visiting the Paizo offices is as dangerous an activity as delivering pizza for Torchwood.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

LazarX wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.
Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.

And what other lethal traps do you have for snooping PFS players? Have they snagged any interns by "mistake"?

I can neither confirm nor deny if there are any traps in or around my office. I can also not speak about what happened to some of the interns that are no longer seen or heard from.

Grand Lodge

Michael Brock wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.
Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.

And what other lethal traps do you have for snooping PFS players? Have they snagged any interns by "mistake"?

I can neither confirm nor deny if there are any traps in or around my office. I can also not speak about what happened to some of the interns that are no longer seen or heard from.

What happens at Paizo, stays at Paizo.

Except that isnt true, as is evidenced by this thread. :P

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.
Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.

And what other lethal traps do you have for snooping PFS players? Have they snagged any interns by "mistake"?

"Call the University, we need another Timmy!"

I'm getting the feeling that visiting the Paizo offices is as dangerous an activity as delivering pizza for Torchwood.

This kind of reminds me of the Confirmation.

"Hi, I'm Kyra. I'm a cleric of Saranae, I woke up in a closet where I vaugely remember other mees and heard someone say "Aw man! We need a cleric!"" - Kyra introducing herself. It's a joke that the grand lodge has a 'closet full of Kyras.'

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Matthew Morris wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.
Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.

And what other lethal traps do you have for snooping PFS players? Have they snagged any interns by "mistake"?

"Call the University, we need another Timmy!"

I'm getting the feeling that visiting the Paizo offices is as dangerous an activity as delivering pizza for Torchwood.

This kind of reminds me of the Confirmation.

"Hi, I'm Kyra. I'm a cleric of Saranae, I woke up in a closet where I vaugely remember other mees and heard someone say "Aw man! We need a cleric!"" - Kyra introducing herself. It's a joke that the grand lodge has a 'closet full of Kyras.'

In the darkest corner, of the deepest, darkest sub-level of the Grand Lodge in Absolom, can be heard the despairing wail of the latest apprentice Wizard, "What do you mean?! Another 25 Kyra clones, and 7 more Ezrens? What do you think I am? A slave?! I can only cast Clone so many times a day, you know. Can't you get those lazy Pathfinders to keep their adventuring companions alive for once?"

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Michael Brock wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.
Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.

John Compton doesn't have his own office?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Nefreet wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.
Why? You would be eaten by the animal companion I keep in my office.
John Compton doesn't have his own office?

John's a bard.


Get it right. John is a "bard." (must use finger quotes)

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Is this place to look for some sort of ruling on this, checked the PFS FAQ and haven't seen anything since mid November so guessing everyone is still busy with the Holidays and the new Classes.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Get it right. John is a "bard." (must use finger quotes)

;p

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Felix Gaunt wrote:
Is this place to look for some sort of ruling on this, checked the PFS FAQ and haven't seen anything since mid November so guessing everyone is still busy with the Holidays and the new Classes.

Yes to all.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Anyone heard anything on this?

3/5

I'd like to point out that this particular house rule is going to become more of a problem when the Advanced Class Guide is released as it is going to contain race-based favored class options which are not in the ARG and thus do not fall afoul of PFS weird racial character option rules.

I think that the language about restricting racial choices from only one specific book (ARG) should be removed and each chapter of non-core races should carry it's own "must have a boon" restriction, assuming that the intent of the rule was to keep people from poaching options from "special" boon races rather than restricting non-core abilities in general.

This would help by serving the dual purpose of moving the way PFS works back towards RAW as well as harmonizing the way that racial character options from all the books are treated.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

If they did that, perhaps PFS could introduce a new houserule allowing the retraining of favored class bonuses. Maybe something akin to skill points?


Access to the human favored class options would make half-elves a great choice for crossblooded sorcerers. Dual-minded would cancel out the -2 penalty to will saves, and a favored class bonus of one extra spell known would more than cancel out the crossblooded penalty to number of spells known.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Good call.

Shadow Lodge

Gisher wrote:
Access to the human favored class options would make half-elves a great choice for crossblooded sorcerers. Dual-minded would cancel out the -2 penalty to will saves, and a favored class bonus of one extra spell known would more than cancel out the crossblooded penalty to number of spells known.

So does Iron Will, which Humans can take as their human bonus feat.

Of course the half elf still gets access to paragon surge and therefore would be better then any human.


Dylos wrote:
So does Iron Will, which Humans can take as their human bonus feat.

True, but I like the thematic elements with half-elves. Crossblooded sorcerers suffer a will penalty because it is so difficult to reconcile their mixed bloodlines, but half-elves can get a will bonus because they have learned to reconcile their human and elven heritages. It seems appropriate that these would cancel out.


Ok, I just looked up Paragon Surge. Holy mackerel, that's a good spell!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Gisher wrote:
and a favored class bonus of one extra spell known would more than cancel out the crossblooded penalty to number of spells known.

Not really; the biggest downside to crossblooded is that you get your new spell levels later, and the human FCB doesn't change that at all, since you can only select a new spell at least a level lower than your highest slot.


Jiggy wrote:
Gisher wrote:
and a favored class bonus of one extra spell known would more than cancel out the crossblooded penalty to number of spells known.
Not really; the biggest downside to crossblooded is that you get your new spell levels later, and the human FCB doesn't change that at all, since you can only select a new spell at least a level lower than your highest slot.

Yeah, crossblooded sorcs get second level spells at level 5, which is painful. They're pretty much moving at theurge pace.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

That is incorrect. They may still cast 2nd level spells at 4th level, they simply don't know any.

You can still purchase a Page of Spell Knowledge, or memorize a 1st level spell in a 2nd level slot.

Shadow Lodge

Gisher wrote:
Ok, I just looked up Paragon Surge. Holy mackerel, that's a good spell!

There's a lot of crazy things you can do with it too, some are more for Sorcerer/Oracle then Wizard, Cleric, Witch, Magus, Paladin, or Arcanist.

Need a caster level increase? Get Spell Specialization.
Need to use a metamagic or prep a spell you didn't prep? Have Heighten? Get Preferred Spell.
Already have Preferred Spell and need to meta without adjusting the level of the spell too much? Get Extra Traits (Magical Lineage and Wayang Spell Hunter) for your preferred spell.

And then the sorcerer tricks
Have Eldritch Heritage Arcane, and need a spell you don't know? Well if you are 11th level you can grab Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane to grab a spell and add it to your known spells. Or you can grab Expanded Arcana without being 11th level.

It gets even better if you are an Eldritch Knight (in my opinion) since you can gain combat feats that might be more situational when you need them.

Anyway, I'm veering off the topic of favored class bonuses and the ARG race restriction a bit, but yea, holy mackerel indeed.

5/5

Dylos wrote:

And then the sorcerer tricks

Have Eldritch Heritage Arcane, and need a spell you don't know? Well if you are 11th level you can grab Improved Eldritch Heritage Arcane to grab a spell and add it to your known spells. Or you can grab Expanded Arcana without being 11th level.

The Eldritch Heritage thing is more an oracle trick as it gives them access to the whole wizard list. Expanded Arcana works perfectly well for Sorcerers and means you can have Arcane as your actual bloodline which is just as well as it pretty much beats the rest hands down.

Prepared casters get in on the spontaneity with Preferred Spell but you have to have Heighten as well.

5/5

Nefreet wrote:

That is incorrect. They may still cast 2nd level spells at 4th level, they simply don't know any.

You can still purchase a Page of Spell Knowledge, or memorize a 1st level spell in a 2nd level slot.

Sorcerers don't memorise spells...:)

You can cast your lower level spells in those slots and you could also use them for metamagiced spells. Given crossblooded is generally used to make blasting relevant you will be using intensified or empowered spells a lot. The limited spells known does make it a bit of a one trick pony and having very few spells of your highest level is likely to be frustrating.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Page of Spell Knowledge is for spontaneous casters.

Shadow Lodge

andreww wrote:
Sorcerers don't memorise spells...:)
Nefreet wrote:
or memorize a 1st level spell in a 2nd level slot.

I think they were referring to this statement.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I don't know what dialect of English he was taught to speak, but I've always spelled it with a "z".

5/5

Nefreet wrote:
I don't know what dialect of English he was taught to speak, but I've always spelled it with a "z".

The Queen's own English of course, I have never understood this colonial obsession with putting z's into words which don't need them or taking the u's out of words that clearly do.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

My boss is British, so that's often something we both joke about as well.


Jiggy wrote:
Gisher wrote:
and a favored class bonus of one extra spell known would more than cancel out the crossblooded penalty to number of spells known.
Not really; the biggest downside to crossblooded is that you get your new spell levels later, and the human FCB doesn't change that at all, since you can only select a new spell at least a level lower than your highest slot.

Thanks for the perspective. My thinking was too simple: lose 10 spells, but gain 20 and you're ahead. Having never played a crossblooded sorcerer, I hadn't considered the timing of the two changes. I guess you can't ever get that lost 9th level spell back either. Still, it makes half-elf a reasonable alternative to human if you wanted to play a crossblooded sorcerer.

For me, there are two attractive options that this change would open up.
1. A half-elf hexcrafter magus could use the elven bonus to get up to three extra hexes.
2. A half-elf magician bard could use the human bonus to get up to 20 extra bard spells known in addition to the extra 5 from any arcane class.

Both of these provide some greater flexibility, opening up more party roles for the characters. Neither is game-breaking. You can build them now using elves or humans. I just prefer half-elves.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Hmmmm, anyone heard an update on this? It's been....well a while. :-/

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Felix Gaunt wrote:
Hmmmm, anyone heard an update on this? It's been....well a while. :-/

I was about to ask the same thing. Paging Michael Brock...

Lantern Lodge 3/5 5/5

Would like to add the question of whether an Aasimar with the Scion of Humanity race trait would be would be in the same position as a half-elf or half-orc in this matter, and dot for interest.

5/5

Exiel. wrote:

Would like to add the question of whether an Aasimar with the Scion of Humanity race trait would be would be in the same position as a half-elf or half-orc in this matter, and dot for interest.

I wouldn't hold your breath. The OP was over three months ago now.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

...and the FAQ was over four months ago.

I'm really leaning towards the interpretation that an absence of a ruling means the current FAQ stands, which would mean Half-races are free to choose their parents' FCBs.

*shrug*

Shadow Lodge

Exiel. wrote:

Would like to add the question of whether an Aasimar with the Scion of Humanity race trait would be would be in the same position as a half-elf or half-orc in this matter, and dot for interest.

Consider that the Scion of Humanity says this: Scion of Humanity: Some aasimars' heavenly ancestry is extremely distant. An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids. She can pass for human without using the Disguise skill. This racial trait replaces the Celestial language and alters the native subtype.

Half Elf's Elf blood says this: Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.

Both have the line For any effect related to race. thus with the same language, I would say that yes, a Scion of Humanity Aasimar should be able to take human favored class bonuses.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Sure seems that way.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

It's coming. The VOs and I are hammering out the language now and the ruling will be posted in the next few days. Just as a head's up, no Orc options are going to be allowed. Aasimars and Tieflings are not going to be able to choose other racial options. We are debating the elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), and is most likely going to be removed as an option. There are a few other things we still need to look at, but you have a basis to work from now.

Like I said, final wording will be formulated over the next few days and posted here as well as the FAQ. I'm off to a Super Bowl party so won't be here to respond the rest of the evening.

Shadow Lodge

Michael Brock wrote:
The elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), is most likely going to be removed as an option.

For everyone or simply for half elves? If it's removed as an option for everyone how would that effect characters who have already taken that option?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Thank you Mike!

Go Denv... err, go Seah... hrmm... GO FOOTBALL!

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Dylos wrote:
Michael Brock wrote:
The elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), is most likely going to be removed as an option.
For everyone or simply for half elves? If it's removed as an option for everyone how would that effect characters who have already taken that option?

They would likely get to choose another FCB.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Michael Brock wrote:

It's coming. The VOs and I are hammering out the language now and the ruling will be posted in the next few days. Just as a head's up, no Orc options are going to be allowed. Aasimars and Tieflings are not going to be able to choose other racial options. We are debating the elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), and is most likely going to be removed as an option. There are a few other things we still need to look at, but you have a basis to work from now.

Like I said, final wording will be formulated over the next few days and posted here as well as the FAQ. I'm off to a Super Bowl party so won't be here to respond the rest of the evening.

Thank you for the update!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

*cough*


Dot

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Still working on some wording and final details. This is still on our radar.

Shadow Lodge

Personally Im fine with doing away with the Hybrid FCB (Half-elf Taking Elf, Half-Orc Taking Orc) as in My Opinion that's not the intent of the rules

however Removing FCB from the Races that they were intended for (Aasimar Oracle FCB on an Aasimar, Elf Oracle FCB on an Elf) I am not a fan of

yes it is on the OP Side but far from the most OP thing in the game right now .. and for the most part everything I've seen from this is focused into a support Character ... and it takes a special type of person to be able to play one of those

-Note- I did say "For the Most part*

Shadow Lodge

Michael Brock wrote:
The elf oracle favored class bonus (which is also the aasimar oracle favored class bonus), is most likely going to be removed as an option.

I hope there is a free character rebuild, this is a fairly heavy hit to a elf oracle.

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