The ARG "race restriction" and favored class bonuses


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Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

There's a FAQ that came out last month about Half-elves and Half-orcs that I have a question about for PFS:

09/26/13 FAQ wrote:

Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial favored class options?

Yes. Half-elves and half-orcs may select racial favored class options, archetypes, traits, and so on, as if they were a full member of both races (a half-elf can select elf and human rules elements, a half-orc can select human and orc rules elements).

Now, as most PFSers know, racial feats, traits, spells, and archetypes found in the ARG are restricted to members of that race, as referenced here:

Additional Resources wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

The one thing I notice that is missing from this list is "racial favored class bonuses", such as a Half-elf Oracle taking the Elf favored class bonus of +1/2 level to one revelation (which is what my Oracle of Life would absolutely love to do).

I'd imagine, given the recentness of the FAQ, that racial favored class bonuses might be added to the list of restrictions set forth in the Additional Resources document, but I wanted to ask first. Wouldn't make much sense to restrict X, Y, and Z, but leave out Q.


I pointed this out on the additional resources thread but you are right it probably deserves it's own thread. Hopefully this discrepancy will get resolved soon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I don't see a discrepancy. the Half races get their own racial favored bonus, no other race, not even Humans, has more than one per class, the half races shouldn't be any different.

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:
I don't see a discrepancy. the Half races get their own racial favored bonus, no other race, not even Humans, has more than one per class, the half races shouldn't be any different.

What about a Human with Racial Heritage?

Whether it was the correct decision in your opinion or mine, the Dev's decided it wasn't worth finely delimiting what options the "half" races could gain from each of their halves. So they said, just take all of it.

Now, PFS has a houserule limiting ARG content. I believe (and am pretty sure I'm right) that this was done to limit access to Boon races. This makes the Boon more valuable if you can only use wonky race options with a valuable cert. What I don't think was envisioned is that this blanket houserule would prevent Core races from accessing content from other Core races.

With that in mind, I think the ARG text should be subtly changed so that all Core race content is open, but Featured and Uncommon race content still require a cert and being that exact race.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
RtrnofdMax wrote:
With that in mind, I think the ARG text should be subtly changed so that all Core race content is open, but Featured and Uncommon race content still require a cert and being that exact race.

I tried looking for other threads discussing this. I would have posted elsewhere if I'd seen one already started. Do you have a link?

As it is now, with the current FAQ and no Additional Resources update, Half-elves (a Core Race) would only be choosing favored class bonuses from Humans or Elves (both also Core races), so if the "race restriction" clause was only put in place to protect the more exotic races, then no harm is done leaving it the way it is.

I'm fine either way, really, but I just leveled my Oracle yesterday and am playing again tonight, so I was checking to see if anyone had an answer. I think I'll assume it's kosher for now and add +1/2 for tonight (which won't effect gameplay) and if the Additional Resources is updated to disallow it I'll just redo whatever level bonuses I've accumulated.

Sovereign Court

If it is a Human or Elf option from the ARG, a Half-Elf cannot take it according to PFS rules. From any other source, a Half-Elf or Half-Orc can take a Human or Elf/Orc option, as long as that option is legal for Humans or Elves/Orcs.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Read my original post. As it stands right now, Half-elves can take the Elf or Human favored class bonuses from the ARG.

That's why I'm asking if the Additional Resources document will be updated to restrict them.


I think what Max is saying is that currently the AR document says:

AR wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

Your Half-elf Oracle is not an Elf (qualifies for elf and human stuff, but is not an Elf), and therefore is being limited by the Additional Resources note.

I can see both interpretations of the note happening.

5/5

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CRobledo wrote:

I think what Max is saying is that currently the AR document says:

AR wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

Your Half-elf Oracle is not an Elf (qualifies for elf and human stuff, but is not an Elf), and therefore is being limited by the Additional Resources note.

I can see both interpretations of the note happening.

Correct. But what Nefreet is pointing out is that Favored Class options is not part of that bolded list...ergo, it should default back to general PF rules which he says would permit it (no idea if that's true or not).


Sniggevert wrote:
Correct. But what Nefreet is pointing out is that Favored Class options is not part of that bolded list...ergo, it should default back to general PF rules which he says would permit it (no idea if that's true or not).

Indeed it is so. You got it, boss. Now I'm caught up ;)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Exactly.

Sovereign Court

Sniggevert wrote:
Correct. But what Nefreet is pointing out is that Favored Class options is not part of that bolded list...ergo, it should default back to general PF rules which he says would permit it (no idea if that's true or not).

That may be the case, but it doesn't make any sense. I believe that the only thing that does make sense is opening all Core race options. As it stands now, PF rules say a HElf can take any Human or Elf option, and PFS says (apparently) HElfs can only take Human or Elf Favored Class options from the ARG. That can't be what Mike et al. intended.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Also exactly.


Nice catch. It looks like FCBs are indeed available for hybrid races by the current rules. With the orc section of the ARG explicitly disallowed, half-orcs can only dip into human options, but those tend to be pretty darn good anyway.

I'd add that traits are also fair game, as the difference between 'racial traits' and 'race traits' has been firmly established.

Anyone was already able to dip into one race trait through Adopted, and you still can't get two cross-race traits due to the one-per-category limit.* Now, however, hybrid races can pick up human or elf traits without locking themselves out of the Social category or taking on the background fluff.

*There is one elf trait not listed in the race category, but it's banned in Additional Resources.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

My Half-elf Oracle is now 6th level, with two levels worth of +1/2 to his Channel Revelation, so I'll be Channeling as a 7th level Cleric.

Too bad the retraining rules don't cover redoing favored class bonuses. Would love to be Channeling as though I were 9th level.

Dark Archive

CRobledo wrote:

I think what Max is saying is that currently the AR document says:

AR wrote:
Note: Alternate racial traits, racial archetypes, racial evolutions, racial feats, and racial spells are only available for characters of the associated race.

Your Half-elf Oracle is not an Elf (qualifies for elf and human stuff, but is not an Elf), and therefore is being limited by the Additional Resources note.

facepalm

tahts what ive been overlooking

THANK YOU

Dark Archive

It would be great to see this clarified. Having players spend favoured class bonuses beforehand means they could be burned by a technicality one way or another.


Also interested in this, so bumping.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
It would be great to see this clarified. Having players spend favoured class bonuses beforehand means they could be burned by a technicality one way or another.

I would imagine that if favored class bonuses end up becoming restricted again that characters (like my Oracle) would be able to reassign them.

I mean, the FAQ was issued almost two months ago. Some characters are well into their adventuring career by now.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Why does it need clarification? It's clearly allowed now. Anything restricting it would simply be a change, not a clarification.

Dark Archive

It's clearly hazy now. The intention of the ARG race restriction was to have each race's powers, feats, and abilities restricted to each race only. The FAQ hadn't happened yet, so there was no need to mention whether a favoured class bonus could only be taken by the specific race in the Additional Resources document.

I think that the intention is no, and it just hasn't been clarified yet.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

I agree with Adam.

Sovereign Court

Want elf stuff? Play an elf. Want goblin stuff? Play a goblin. Get off my lawn!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Kolossal Ego wrote:
Want elf stuff? Play an elf. Want goblin stuff? Play a goblin. Get off my lawn!

I'm normally inclined to agree, but I made my Half-elf Oracle well before the FAQ. I was content to not be as powerful of a Channeler as an Aasimar. But when it became an option halfway through my career, why not jump on it?

If it gets changed back, or clarified, or whatever, I'll just reset to my prior contentedness, rather than the jubilee I'm experiencing now.

But it should be clarified soon, because some people are probably planning Half-elf characters around this mechanic, and they won't feel "content" if things get changed.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post and reply. Please leave personal insults out of the conversation.

3/5

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
I think that the intention is no, and it just hasn't been clarified yet.

I agree, because no matter what the clarification to RAW is, the PFS house rules about additional resources have not changed, and a house rule trumps anything in RAW within the context of a specific campaign, so I would say that sadly most racial material remains strictly locked away based on race.


Uh, now I may be crazy, but here's a question.

Can a human (for example) take the Racial Heritage (Halfling) feat and be considered both human and halfling for gaining favored class bonuses with the Summoner, aka gaining 2 hit points for his eidolon per class level taken?

If: Racial Heritage makes you count as another race and human for all effects/elements/yadayada.

And: "The following favored class options are available to all characters of this race who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the favored class reward."

Then: When the human (who counts as human) with the Racial Heritage (Halfling) feat takes a level of summoner, he gets the bonus as listed under "Favored Class Options" for both races as he meets the requirements under that entry.

Are there any rules that negate this?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Deviston wrote:

Can a human (for example) take the Racial Heritage (Halfling) feat and be considered both human and halfling for gaining favored class bonuses with the Summoner, aka gaining 2 hit points for his eidolon per class level taken?

If: Racial Heritage makes you count as another race and human for all effects/elements/yadayada.

And: "The following favored class options are available to all characters of this race who have the listed favored class, and unless otherwise stated, the bonus applies each time you select the favored class reward."

I suspect you mean 2 skill ranks.

If he's a human, the human favored class bonus is available to him. If he's a halfling, the halfling favored class bonus is available to him. Each level, he either selects one of them, or one of the standard favored class bonus options.


Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.

I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

Deviston wrote:

Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.

I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!

And I think it would get banned, even though, technically, it might be possible, using that Human feat that allows you to choose two FCBs each level...


VIA home rules yeah you are correct, however RAW I sadly think not because the feat of which you speak specifically refers to the +1 to hp/skill points. AND it states you get both, not one or the other and an alternate favored class bonus. Actually, I read another thread where they figured it out to mean "you either get both +1's or an alternate favored class bonus, not a combination of the above".

After reading their explanation, and rereading the feat, I tend to agree even though I really don't want to haha

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Personally I hope that the half-elf and half-orc are allowed. I've always loved the half elf, and feel on a couple of classes he got the fuzzy end of the lollipop (alchemists, inquisitor and witch, I'm looking at you).

Shadow Lodge

Deviston wrote:

Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.

I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!

Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.

Dark Archive

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Deviston wrote:

Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.

I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!

Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.

Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Deviston wrote:

Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.

I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!

Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.
Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.

I remember people asking if that was RAI, as it made it a substandard feat. (worse than toughness, unless you wanted the skill point, hit point, planned to stay in the class until 20 and wanted toughness.)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Interesting that people ask if a feat is RAI if perceived as substandard, but RAW when overpowered.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Michael Brock wrote:
Interesting that people ask if a feat is RAI if perceived as substandard, but RAW when overpowered.

It is interesting. :-)

As I remember the discussion, it was if it was meant to allow +1sp/+1HP or +1/other FRC because of the bit I mentioned above. I think (again, relying on gouda for memory here) the concern/question was if it was missed/changed in a pass. Think of the prone shooter debates.

That said, have you reached a decision on the FCB question, Mr. Brock?

Grand Lodge 5/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

I'm in the middle of a 14 day road trip. When I get back, John and I will look into it and make a decision that is best for the campaign.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Michael Brock wrote:
I'm in the middle of a 14 day road trip. When I get back, John and I will look into it and make a decision that is best for the campaign.

Oh, I thought you were back in the office. Enjoy the roadtrip.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Deviston wrote:

Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.

I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!

Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.
Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.

That's one that gets argued all the time. English simply isn't precise enough to definitively say, and it was changed from what the author turned in.

With the more permissive reading it is marginally better than toughness (as it should be, given it has 2 requirements). With the less permissive reading it is objectively worse.

Dark Archive

BigNorseWolf wrote:
English simply isn't precise enough to definitively say,

Yes it is. People just don't always read carefully enough.

Then I arrest them.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Deviston wrote:

Oh I see, and no, I actually meant Gnome and 2 hit points. But yeah, you get what I meant. I had halflings on the brain.

I guess I should have known that since you can't take an alternate favored class bonus AND the base +1 hp/skill point. Dang, thought I stumbled upon something quite nice. Oh well!

Well, if you are a human, you can take fast learner and take 2 FCB's, and presumably 2 different racial FCB's, assuming that you had racial heritage.
Fast Learner is limited to either +1 to skills and hp OR another favoured class bonus. No mixing and matching.

That's one that gets argued all the time. English simply isn't precise enough to definitively say, and it was changed from what the author turned in.

With the more permissive reading it is its marginally better than toughness (as it should be, given it has 2 requirements). With the less permissive reading it is objectively worse.

Actually, it's inferior to Toughness, assuming you're going for the hit points.

For a feat, you can get the FC hit points, and another FC benefit.

Or, for a Feat, you can get +3 hp at level 1, automatically becoming +1/level at 4+, and this applies even if you multi-class. You then use your FC for ANOTHER benefit.

This is only worth it for the pure hit points if you are going to Stack it with Toughness. Otherwise, take Toughness.

==Aelryinth


Hey guys, any thoughts on this yet? Holiday weekend is over and you'll should be back. Have a character I need to figure out if I can make him a half-elf or if he's stuck being an Aasmir.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Hey guys, any thoughts on this yet? Holiday weekend is over and you'll should be back. Have a character I need to figure out if I can make him a half-elf or if he's stuck being an Aasmir.

Patience my young apprentice. Make him a half elf, not every character needs every advantage. :-)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

^ this is what I did, too, about 4 levels before the FAQ came out.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Hey guys, any thoughts on this yet? Holiday weekend is over and you'll should be back. Have a character I need to figure out if I can make him a half-elf or if he's stuck being an Aasmir.
Patience my young apprentice. Make him a half elf, not every character needs every advantage. :-)

Not every character needs to forego optimization, either. Some of us enjoy specializing in certain class mechanics in our builds, and that doesn't make us munchkins.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I really wish I was a spider under the table in Mike Brock's office.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Ironically I'm disinterested in the Favored Class Options half-xxx would open up and more interested in the other aspects. If this change happens *cross fingers* and it causes people to play something other than say an Aasimar, Tiefling or Human I say Huzzah! lol

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