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You guys put up with a lot of bull and get way to much flak for doing your jobs. Keep trekkin' on. This storm will pass once people learn they can make this game what they want to make of it (and that right now they are making it incredibly depressing as I watch this community's behavior). So thank you again and know that a lot of us still have your back.
Yep
True that. The ongoing involvement with the system by faq, blog, playtests and posts is a huge plus, and one of the biggest reasons I love Pathfinder.
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Thanks for making this thread.
Some people seem really excited about arguing. More power to them, really, I hope they're enjoying themselves, but I've been hiding thread after thread for the past couple days. Because I'm not going to stand around arguing that we shouldn't be arguing.
Anyway, thanks to the developers for continuing to provide a great product and the community staff for wading through the vitriol to make sure nothing crosses the line.
I won't pretend to be the majority, because I have no real idea. But I'll be over here enjoying your game rather than arguing about it on the internet.
Cheers!
Landon
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I kinda notice that people on the internet take great pleasure in crapping all over things that they're supposed to be enjoying in the name of supposedly "trying to make it better". There's a way to pose criticism in a way where you don't come off sounding like an obnoxious jerk.
unfortunately most internet posters are either willfully ignorant of it or just prefer to be jerk's about it to seem edgy and cool. but in the end they just look like jerks.
I also notice that threads praising something are alot shorter than the negative ones criticizing something. Which is just fricking sad.
I think Landon Winter above me says it best though:
"But I'll be over here enjoying your game rather than arguing about it on the internet."
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I'll be going to enjoy it myself in a few minutes when I get off!!
I've already brought up this FAQ to my group. We've chosen to ignore it for the most part. How will it affect PBPs I'm in? Don't think it will. Regardless there is one important thing about that FAQ I think needs to be said.
You listen to your customer base.
Regardless if people agree or disagree, you show that you listen, you try to make things better. It shows a good deal of customer service that is admirable. So thank you for that!
I've removed some posts. Remember the most important rule of the Paizo message boards.
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I don't know where you're finding those quotes, but it's important to recognise the good work that Paizo do, even if they do some things you don't agree with occasionally. It's about respect.
Let's face it, Pathfinder is pretty sweet, and the fact we ever get clarification on rulings is worth applauding.
Thank you MrSin.
Deleted though. Irony. Reposted for you and anyone else though, if only to make sense. Link
Your welcome btw! Glad to help.
You guys put up with a lot of bull and get way to much flak for doing your jobs. Keep trekkin' on. This storm will pass once people learn they can make this game what they want to make of it (and that right now they are making it incredibly depressing as I watch this community's behavior). So thank you again and know that a lot of us still have your back.
Yeah. I enjoy watching the eloquent critique of the system by people who understand it, plus the defence of such by the design team.
However, posts along the lines of "oh my god, that is so crap!" are quite depressing.
You guys put up with a lot of bull and get way to much flak for doing your jobs. Keep trekkin' on. This storm will pass once people learn they can make this game what they want to make of it (and that right now they are making it incredibly depressing as I watch this community's behavior). So thank you again and know that a lot of us still have your back.
Abso-frakkin-lutely!
Heh, I appreciate what the staff of Paizo do as much as anyone, but I also recognize that Paizo is just one company among many that have to deal with the public. Paizo can be commended for generally having a positive approach to their customer interaction but it's somewhat naive to think that Paizo is unique in that regard.
If you really want to see some heroic customer service behavior, go work at a Disney theme park for a summer....
Sure, I respect anyone who has to deal with the public (restaurant employees, bill collectors, customer service agents, police, etc) cause you have to put up with a lot just to do your job. But then, if you put something out to the public, you have to deal with them (all of them).
You guys put up with a lot of bull and get way to much flak for doing your jobs.
Very much this. I can't imagine sticking through a fraction of what I have seen devs on these boards try and talk out with people. Having access to them at all like this is an awesome thing for which I thank them.
I'm here to also put in a thank you as well. I've seen a lot of flak towards the people and yet unlike other companys that after so much, do a hands off approach, these people are still here. Thank you for your product and ur customer support.
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I'm going to thank the design team as well. I don't always agree with your decisions, but the very fact that you're so out there and communicating with us is amazing. Thank you SKR for putting up with us being childish about things like this. It's important to us, but it's not an excuse for childish behaviour.
Paizo Design Team: You guys - all of you guys - are awesome. I don't always agree with you. I don't always like the way you put things. But that doesn't change the fact that you guys are really terrific. Thank you.
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Agreed, many thanks to the people who staff the Paizo design team. They are good, dedicated people who have allowed most of us enjoy the heck out of what they've helped produce.
<rant>
Moreover, they're people, not friggin' machines attached to a keyboard. I've read some posts that call those people names you'd never imagine someone saying to another person face-to-face.
They're people who have feelings and opinions and lives outside the game and don't merit abuse heaped on them because they wrote something with which someone might disagree.
Disagreement does not equal license to ridicule, belittle, or otherwise mistreat other people. Not even on an anonymous format like the Internet.
</rant>
Agreed, many thanks to the people who staff the Paizo design team. They are good, dedicated people who have allowed most of us enjoy the heck out of what they've helped produce.
<rant>
Moreover, they're people, not friggin' machines attached to a keyboard. I've read some posts that call those people names you'd never imagine someone saying to another person face-to-face.They're people who have feelings and opinions and lives outside the game and don't merit abuse heaped on them because they wrote something with which someone might disagree.
Disagreement does not equal license to ridicule, belittle, or otherwise mistreat other people. Not even on an anonymous format like the Internet.
</rant>
Yes, yes, yes, I acknowledge all that. I just have people in my family working customer service jobs who take a lot more crap than the Paizo staff does here, and they take it quite literally in their faces to the point that sometimes they have to wipe off the spittle.
Yeah, kudos to the Paizo team. Great stuff.
But it comes with the job and I'm pretty sure nobody ever stuffed an ice cream cone down Sean's shirt.
Yes, yes, yes, I acknowledge all that. I just have people in my family working customer service jobs who take a lot more crap than the Paizo staff does here, and they take it quite literally in their faces to the point that sometimes they have to wipe off the spittle.
Yeah, kudos to the Paizo team. Great stuff.
But it comes with the job and I'm pretty sure nobody ever stuffed an ice cream cone down Sean's shirt.
spoilered
spoilered** spoiler omitted **
They've removed a lot of post today. Many negatives statements about paizo or the design team. Could easily be one of those.
I've got mixed feeling on being thankful myself.
spoilered** spoiler omitted **They've removed a lot of post today. Many negatives statements about paizo or the design team. Could easily be one of those.
I've got mixed feeling on being thankful myself.
I'm sure they have removed a lot of posts. Somehow I think that removing a post is a bit less stressful than having to be interviewed by the police when a customer literally tried to physically assault my wife.
That's all I'm saying. I appreciate the Paizo staff, I really do, but all this "oh you poor abused people" nonsense is just hilarious. They sit at a computer keyboard and read messages, which they can delete without fear of a knife coming out. Seriously people. It's a b++%* sometimes, but let's not get carried away.
Agreed, many thanks to the people who staff the Paizo design team. They are good, dedicated people who have allowed most of us enjoy the heck out of what they've helped produce.
<rant>
Moreover, they're people, not friggin' machines attached to a keyboard. I've read some posts that call those people names you'd never imagine someone saying to another person face-to-face.They're people who have feelings and opinions and lives outside the game and don't merit abuse heaped on them because they wrote something with which someone might disagree.
Disagreement does not equal license to ridicule, belittle, or otherwise mistreat other people. Not even on an anonymous format like the Internet.
</rant>
This is pretty much exactly what I mean. I can disagree with them, but still respect them immensely.
spoilered** spoiler omitted **They've removed a lot of post today. Many negatives statements about paizo or the design team. Could easily be one of those.
I've got mixed feeling on being thankful myself.
I'm sure they have removed a lot of posts. Somehow I think that removing a post is a bit less stressful than having to be interviewed by the police when a customer literally tried to physically assault my wife.
That's all I'm saying. I appreciate the Paizo staff, I really do, but all this "oh you poor abused people" nonsense is just hilarious. They sit at a computer keyboard and read messages, which they can delete without fear of a knife coming out. Seriously people. It's a b*~#~ sometimes, but let's not get carried away.
Kinda have to agree. At the end of the day, what happened is they issued another rule 'clarification' that got a lot of people upset, and they've been taking the usual flak over it. That can't be fun, but it's not like the upset people in the community are beating them like red-headed stepchildren.
It's nice to have devs offer feedback on these kinds of issues, but that does pretty much inevitably result in taking some heat whenever you make (what the community believes to be) a bad rule change. Honestly, I do think the Paizo developers might need to think their rulings over a bit more carefully, because it seems like half the time a new FAQ comes out, it creates as many (or more) issues than it fixes. It doesn't help that quite a few of the recent FAQs have been aimed at killing game-breaking theorycraft builds no sane DM would allow, like Rage-Lance-Pounce or the pistol juggling build that needed 20 free actions to work.
In my opinion, it seems like part of the problem is that the Paizo Devs seem to have become very insistent on not making actual rules changes, so instead they keep bending over backwards to find ways to make the rules work the way they want without changing anything. It's probably a matter of not wanting to have more editions of the CRB/erratas out there, but at times it can almost come across as stubborn pride. Rather than admit there's an issue with something that's RAW-legal and tweak it, they give the impression that they believe their rules are absolutely perfect, and anyone who finds a loophole is just playing the game wrong.
All that said, Pathfinder's still a fun game, and I don't doubt all their changes are intended to make it even more fun in the future.
Justin, nobody is making them do it. All jobs are a mixture of perks and pay. Some jobs have a bunch of both, some jobs have little of either. Nobody is making them do it, and most of us would love to be getting paid to do what they do, "abuse" and all.
I appreciate what they do. But I appreciate what the fry cook does too. And so long as they are making more than minimum wage, they are doing as well or better than my college educated daughter who has to deal with physically present customers instead of just reading their comments on a screen.
I do think that Paizo is a fine company. But much of this particular situation is self-inflicted. While I wish that people would be more polite in their criticism, I also think that most people would benefit from a thicker skin. Just as the Paizo staff is dedicated to this game, to a lot of people this game is one of the few things that give them stress relief from their own "abusive" jobs or family lives. It elicits passion on all sides. That's usually a good thing.
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Pathfinder has some really bad game design, but the respect and courtesy that the company has for its customers is second to none.
Are "compliments" like this supposed to cheer the devs up? Because plenty of us think their design is quite good, with only minor tangles or hiccups. Considering the sheer amount of moving parts in these rules, a few oversights are inevitable. The rules as a whole are quite functional.
Justin, I think I understand just fine. Doing something you have a passion for is one of the "perks" I was referring to. It's what teachers claim makes teaching worth doing too.
Passion is a good thing. I'm glad the Paizo designers have it. I do wish sometimes they were a bit more thorough and forward thinking in their game decisions though. This specific example would be one such example.
Respecting, even admiring, someone does not mean they are above criticism. And if they are as passionate about doing the work they are doing as you are suggesting, then a few angry messageboard comments shouldn't be anything to worry them.
Hell, it wouldn't worry me. I would try to take the criticisms at their value and try to ignore the emotion.
Justin, I think I understand just fine. Doing something you have a passion for is one of the "perks" I was referring to. It's what teachers claim makes teaching worth doing too.
Passion is a good thing. I'm glad the Paizo designers have it. I do wish sometimes they were a bit more thorough and forward thinking in their game decisions though. This specific example would be one such example.
Respecting, even admiring, someone does not mean they are above criticism. And if they are as passionate about doing the work they are doing as you are suggesting, then a few angry messageboard comments shouldn't be anything to worry them.
Hell, it wouldn't worry me. I would try to take the criticisms at their value and try to ignore the emotion.
Very much agreed on this point. At the end of the day, the Paizo developers are only human; they can make mistakes just like anyone else. For all the furor over the recent ruling, there are also plenty of people pointing out some legitimate issues with the limit on free actions. It also bears mentioning that quite a bit of the bad behavior is coming from the pro-Paizo side of the forums.
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That's all I'm saying. I appreciate the Paizo staff, I really do, but all this "oh you poor abused people" nonsense is just hilarious. They sit at a computer keyboard and read messages, which they can delete without fear of a knife coming out. Seriously people. It's a b%$@! sometimes, but let's not get carried away.
I'm sure we could have a great contest about whose life is harder and whose jobs and spouse's jobs are worse, but... you know what? It doesn't really matter. Some of us have managers with unreasonable expectations, some of us get death threats regularly, some of us get splattered with acid on a daily basis. We all have our own problems.
But doing your honest best at something you care about and having people dump on it sucks. Whether it sucks more or less than a soulless corporate grind or walking new employees through the bomb threat procedure is completely irrelevant.
All that matters is that it sucks and that trying to put it into perspective with a little positive feedback is laudable. If you think other people also need positive feedback, I won't contest that in the slightest, but the simple solution is to give those people positive feedback as well.
Cheers!
Landon
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Landon, it's not a competition about whose life is harder. Its an attempt to provide some perspective on the situation.
I appreciate how some fans of Paizo feel a need to rally to the defense of the Paizo developers. But sometimes the reality is that some, at least, of the criticism is deserved. Then the knee-jerk protective reaction is counter-productive since it shields the developers from criticism that is deserved.
I believe this is one of those times. I understand what the developers were trying to do, but this is a cluster f*** of serious proportions, and trying to pretend otherwise does nobody any good.
Plus it just cracks me up that people think the Paizo team needs their protection and fan worship. It strikes me as downright sycophantic frankly.
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Constructive criticism is one thing, but dumping all over the life's work of talented people with hyperbole isn't helping either.
And when a FAQ response goes out of its way to include language like "Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances" and still get defecated all over by a vocal minority of so-called fans, then there comes a time when the silent majority feel like they're contributing to the cesspool by staying silent when they can speak out in favor of the devs.
And if that makes us "sycophants," then so be it. I'll be a sycophant any day for a dev team that actually responds to the players' concerns, however imperfect their method of doing so.
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Psyren, I frequent the websites of many companies that support their products. Some are other RPG companies, some are direct competitors of Paizo. Some are totally outside of gaming. Some are hardware companies, some are software companies, some are hobby supply companies, etc.
Paizo's approach to the issue of customer support through a website is hardly unique, and roughly equivalent to the other gamer sites I go to. They all have hard-working, dedicated, thoughtful and passionate employees who try to interact with and provide service to their customers.
Paizo does a decent job of it, but so does (shudder) WotC. In fact I get a lot more direct contact from WotC than I ever have from Paizo, and I'm at least as contentious on their website as I am here.
The best customer interaction and support I have seen is usually from hobby supply companies who are truly passionate about their products and who absolutely love to interact with people who use and appreciate their products. In fact I think companies like Paizo and even WotC could learn a lot from some of those truly passionate hobby product suppliers.
ALL OF THEM get the same sorts of positive and negative reaction from their customers.
All of them.
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Hopefully fans on those other sites also speak up against it.
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Paizo does a decent job of it, but so does (shudder) WotC. In fact I get a lot more direct contact from WotC than I ever have from Paizo, and I'm at least as contentious on their website as I am here.
I was a regular on 339, and I saw none of that. Maybe they changed that policy with 4e, but too little too late, the GSL sealed their doom as never getting a penny of my business again.
ALL OF THEM get the same sorts of positive and negative reaction from their customers.All of them.
The over-reactionary cesspit these boards devolve into at the drop of a pin belies your assertion utterly. But even if this sort of behavior is par for the course, I couldn't care less, because that doesn't make it right or somehow not worth opposing.
You proudly claim that you are "at least as contentious" on other boards, as though that somehow excuses such behavior or negates any need to defend against it. That's unacceptable to me and always will be. I don't want to be part of any fandom that thinks dehumanizing designers is fine simply because the vitriol is spread around evenly, and I'll happily stand against it wherever it rears its ugly head.
Thank you for posting FAQ and everything else even with the vocal minority who always seem to have some issue with it.
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Psyren, what leads you to believe that I "proudly claim" that I am at least as contentious? I'm just fairly objective at analyzing my own behavior.
Where do you get the idea that anyone "thinks that dehumanizing designers is fine" for any reason? All I have said is that on occasion criticism is warranted.
Are you claiming that criticism is by definition de-humanizing? Or that Paizo is incapable of doing anything deserving of criticism?
This would be a good example of the over-the-top defense I'm talking about, by the way. I haven't seen ANYTHING in ANY of the threads on this subject that would qualify as "de-humanizing behavior" or an "over-reactionary cesspit" or even full of "vitriol".
There are some harsh criticisms and some emotional comments on occasion. That's what happens when people disagree.
Most of us can take it without whining about "de-humanizing, vitriolic, over-reactionary cesspits" or whatnot.
I'm sure the Paizo developers can take it. Maybe the reason I don't feel a need to leap to their defense is that I have a higher opinion of them and their ability to deal with the real world.
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Psyren, what leads you to believe that I "proudly claim" that I am at least as contentious? I'm just fairly objective at analyzing my own behavior.
You seem to have no problem with being contentious.
Where do you get the idea that anyone "thinks that dehumanizing designers is fine" for any reason? All I have said is that on occasion criticism is warranted.Are you claiming that criticism is by definition de-humanizing?
The manner in which it is delivered/conveyed is what determines that. I have seen many examples here (generally deleted by attentive mods not long after) that fall under that umbrella.
This would be a good example of the over-the-top defense I'm talking about, by the way. I haven't seen ANYTHING in ANY of the threads on this subject that would qualify as "de-humanizing behavior" or an "over-reactionary cesspit" or even full of "vitriol".
Again, most of the vitriol gets moderated. But that doesn't stop the devs from having to wade through it.
You can consider me over-the-top or "whining" if you like, I really don't care what you think.
There are some harsh criticisms and some emotional comments on occasion. That's what happens when people disagree.
And there are people who stand up to defend them too. That happens also. If one is par for the course, so too can the other be.
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Psyren, I have very little problem with being contentious. I admit it. I find today's level of discourse to be flaccid and feckless with so much effort put into avoiding contentiousness that it is virtually impossible to have a serious conversation about anything.
It is possible to be contentious without resorting to personal attacks or "vitriol". I will say that it generally takes at least two to be contentious, and you are doing a fine job of it yourself right here.