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Protection from Blank defends against summoned creatures of the same alignment.
Use creatures that gain a benefit from slaying creatures. That'll teach him to use low hd creatures. Area spells work well.
Uhhh...but yeah. Keep in mind that the Master Summoner has some difficulty doing anything else. His eidolon is weaker and he has a heavier reliance on his summoned creatures. They're not permanent so you could always space encounters out. Feel free to have enemies retreat and seal the way to buy time for the durations to run out.
OH! DR. DR absolutely trounces summons.
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The Magic Circle spells have a caveat in them that makes them particularly effective against summoned creatures. Check it out.
As for the sheer number of summons, enemies with AoE and/or Cleave should make short work of them.
As for slowing the game down... yeah, they'll do that. Not much way around it.
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Well, just right off the bat--make tokens for all the elementals in advance and have them act on the same turn as the player.
What's really gonna challenge this guy are area effects. Consider inserting someone with a wand of burning hands or the like--whatever fits Carrion Crown. Those elementals will go down fast. Better yet, a guy with Great Cleave, who will love that the Summoner is making it so easy to pull off so many attacks per round. Terrain control spells will also hurt the heck out of certain elementals.
And if the summons aren't doing much damage, have your monsters be smart and ignore them. ;D
If you summon the right elementals (almost always earth), they will do tons of damage.
You can try to summon less and more powerful critters. You will be nerfing yourself, but if it will be more fun for everyone...
Change superior summoning by summon good monster and check the hound archon and the foo lion. Both are very good (archon is more versatile).
If you summon the right elementals (almost always earth), they will do tons of damage.
You can try to summon less and more powerful critters. You will be nerfing yourself, but if it will be more fun for everyone...
Change superior summoning by summon good monster and check the hound archon and the foo lion. Both are very good (archon is more versatile).
We're not trying to make him more effective. The GM is looking for ways to rebalance his game with tons of summon monsters mucking up the fights.
Not a permanent solution, but design a dungeon around the idea that it can only contain X amount of monsters at a time and anytime that limit goes over a disintegration spell is cast on the creature with the least amount of HD. I know you're playing a AP, so you could possibly build that into the adventure. In any case, Master Summoners are hard to deal with and I believe Master Summoners, Synthesists, and Broodmaster summoners are no longer legal in Pathfinder Society. I usually use their ban list to help make my games easier and prevent characters like the Master Summoner from ruining games like these, at least when dealing with modules. I feel I can handle classes like that a whole lot better when I am gming custom campaigns.
Hand out the control of the summons to other players. That way all will get more playing time, and the fight might even go a bit faster.
Dreadful Carnage and a high intimidate To demoralize everyone in 30 ft radius whenever one dies. Breath weapons. Magic missiles that target the character despite his horde. The Control Summoned Creature spell.
Can he communicate with them? Seems like they could get into trouble after the attacking the enemy is done without direction. Make sure you are designing for the action economy in your encounters so they aren't rolling over everything.
Hand out the control of the summons to other players. That way all will get more playing time, and the fight might even go a bit faster.
This is a good idea in most cases but especially when dealing with something like roll 20. If you make all elementals go on the same initiative and 3 different players act for them, it would be close to as long to resolve as the turn for another player. Its what I do in table play with something like this and it works well. I'd imagine given the limitations of roll 20 where you can only do as fast as you can click it will have an even more dramatic impact.
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Give everyone a time limit to perform their actions or they loose them.
Ask the player if you trust him to roll all his attacks beforehand along with damage so on their turn all he has to give you is the AC they hit and the damage they do.
Oh and if you are summoning something you need to have the stats and figures ready. Don’t have the stats and something to represent it you don’t summon it.
This is what I do when I get larger groups with many people. It gets cumbersome having a summoner and a druid in the party with everyone taking cohorts or using spells to raise undead companions.
Sic
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What I would do, as a GM in this case is simply roll with it.
Take a look at it first from the player of the summoner's perspective. He's obviously having a ton of fun controlling his army of mini-minions and not looking to severely unbalance the game. There really isn't any reason to punish him, since there are quite literally a TON of ways you can limit his effectiveness or just shut him down outright.
Instead, maybe you should throw in a few encounters where his little guys actually get a chance to really shine instead of just being a swarm of nameless redshirts?
On the other hand, if his playstyle is bogging down the flow of combat overmuch, then it's less a player issue and more a mechanics problem. Waves of summoned monsters (as well as large numbers of player-controlled NPCs or any sort) can seriously affect the flow of any combat oriented game and should be adjusted as soon as it becomes a real problem at the table. If your players aren't having an issue with it, then it's really not a problem at all. Just discuss everything with the players out of game and see what everyone thinks.
Personally, I have never had a problem with masses of die rolls in a game. I mean I ran a several year long campaign where I GMed for 2 players who ran a total of between 18 and 30 characters for the entirety of the game, including high level Druids and Conjurers, and we still fondly remember the game 15 years+ later.
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I don't have a master summoner, but I have a summoner and 7 other PCs so here's my 'inexpert' methods.
1.) The elementals are pretty damn tough and good for a lot of situations, so think outside the box a little. That air elemental is going to whirlwind, so give him gribblies to whirlwind. While he's busy re-enacting Twister with kobolds he 1.) Isn't causing too much trouble to the main bad guy and 2.) The player gets to feel badass.
2.) The summons will usually be a few levels behind the other monsters, the difference is with the stuff like huge earth elementals and the like, but by that point the opponents should be beefy too (fire giants, fiends).
3.) Summons have communication issues that eidolons don't. If the summon goes out of vision range, it acts on its order. It doesn't get to improvise. Also, you gotta be able to speak the language, or all it can do is attack.
4.) For simplicity, summons go on the summoner's turn. No new init for all the mobs.
5.) Tight battlefields. If the area is 5 by 5, then the summoner can't really even pull in a huge air elemental, or even a lot of lesser elementals.
6.) The summons are tied to the summoner. Without an eidolon to back him up, or something to guard him (very few summoners remember this), you clonk the summoner, and his summons go poof. Even feats that let eidolons persist don't apply to the summons if he's using his summoner summon power.
7.) Don't fear the guy who can summon two huge elementals. Fear the guy who can summon six large ones. Whirlwind never stops giving the hurt.
I understand where the OP is coming from, I've had a PC alongside a master summoner. Fortunately our Master Summoner was very well prepared, so it didn't take nearly as long as it could have. Unfortunately, it still took a fairly long time. Rerednaw, it's easy to say that. It's also easy to keep track of one animal companion. Keeping track of 4 summons whose stats and abilities can change at the drop of a hat is much harder.
The summoner probably also is a buffer, so his summons rolls are further changing. And he's got to keep track of things like which ones have flanking bonuses and which ones don't. I'm not saying it's an impossible task, but it is difficult. He might want to buff a summon on his turn and then have it attack. So he works things out like a good player and has his buffed monster attack stats all ready to go.
Then just before his turn his summoner gets grappled, or a monster flies, or goes invisible, or somebody casts darkness, or a million other things that are going to change what he does and make it so he has to rework everything. It happens.
As far as being overpowered, most people on the boards agree that the Master Summoner is one of two of the most powerful archetypes of the most powerful class in the game. Make of that what you will, and do what you need to do for your game to be enjoyable.
OP - you're not wrong. Master Summoner is a complete disaster of an archetype, tacked on to summoner, which is pretty much a complete disaster of a class.
I have to disagree, the class and archetype is fine and not overpowered. The issues of time have similar problems to other classes that don't work well with others, like stealth based characters that need to keep separation or split from the party for them to do their thing. They work fine in small groups (4 or under) but are a pain for GMS and groups at 5+. The 1d4+1 summons are so weak that most level appropriate monsters can just eat AoOs from them. If the encounters get murdered by actions of those summons through action economy, then bring more monsters instead of solos and pairs. You don't need specific hard counters for the summons. Heck just having a wizard blast an AoE of the appropriate type can eliminate the horde in a round. If he summons more do it again. Completely fine use of enemy actions and if anything it keeps those actions being directed at the party.
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Resist the urge to do the 'this particular item to oppose class' thing. It starts breaking disbelief when every tribe of giants for inexplicable reasons begins casting protection from whatever spells, or everyone has a banishment rod.
How do the players deal with overwhelming odds, or more bodies opposing them? Thats how your opponents should react.
The summoner has a grab bag, but they're not game breaking unless you 1.) Slavishly adhere to the encounter design rules (which are guidelines anyway), 2.) Treat monsters as statbags and not characters.
Elementals are dangerous, but thats why they're a class feature. Its also why charisma is a big thing for the summoner, having to explain, cajole or otherwise compel his summons to do what he wants them to do.
"Elemental, go open that door!" He might 'open' it by smashing it in, or burning it. Instead of just the knob.
Maybe that eladrin you summoned wants to do things with more of a flair.
And evil creatures might do horrible things if you word your commands too widely.
I am pretty sure that summoned creatures other than an eidolon are always supposed to act on the summoner's initiative rather than their own. The eidolon has its own initiative only because of its semi-independent status as the summoner's "pet" -- but that should not be an issue because this master summoner wisely keeps his underpowered eidolon out of combat.
So yes, all those summoned creatures will slow things down, but you really don't have to make things worse by giving them their own initiatives. The Summon Monster I spell description actually says, "This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn." Nothing in the (Master) Summoner's Summon Monster ability overrides that, so you are actually slowing down the game with an undesirable house rule when you roll initiative for each separate summoned monster.
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Well the argument the PC will likely make is that the summons from the master summoner have longer duration, thus leading to situations where the thing is already 'out' when the long knives come out.
I'd still make him roll using the summoner's init as again, the creatures need to be directed as unlike an eidolon they don't have the benefit of that internal self-guidance or intimate control.
OP - you're not wrong. Master Summoner is a complete disaster of an archetype, tacked on to summoner, which is pretty much a complete disaster of a class. Your experience is shared by many. I'd like to highlight some very good advice from above:
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Right. Don’t hate him, ban the class. It’s a HUGE spotlight hog and it’s unfair to the rest of the group. Not to mention it makes more work for the DM.
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This might seem blunt suggestion, but up the challenge rating of encounters. I learned recently that I have been coddling to much my players so I UP-ed the challenge by CR +2 or CR +3. Working good so far.
What's actually trouncing your NPC's is action economy of elementals and the fact that there is abundance of them.
The simplest way to solve this is just to ask player not to play a summoner. I know that some people would hate to hear this response, but as a GM, I am having enough trouble already tracking up to 5 NPCs and everything else. Among other things, elementals can make encounters trivial, make other PC's feeling useless and at higher levels it only gets worse. In fact, expect that at higher levels his round will last for 10 minutes while he rolls out all those attacks and damage.
The not so simple way to solve this is by adding additional difficulty to each encounter, which requires alot of time to invest in. Out of top of my head, your best friend is gonna be Fiendish Template, monsters with reach, spellcasters and unique Intelligent monsters who will quickly notice who is controlling those elementals (a simple devil can teleport near summoner easily and rip him apart).
Adam
There is a really important bit of the original post people seem to be consistently overlooking here:
I'm running the Carrion Crown adventure path;
So none of these suggestions to rebalance every encounter around this character are particularly practical.
Regardless of how they can or cannot be made to work in a homebrew game, within the context of an adventure path, the master summoner archetype is straight-up unworkable, and really should never be allowed. There is even a big sidebar warning about how much it can slow things down and pointing out that it's largely designed for games with only a single PC.
My suggestion, at this point, would be to sit this player down, explain that you really didn't take a good enough look at this archetype before approving it, and propose that he drops the archetype (giving him a chance to tweak his eidolon and feats accordingly). Baseline summoners are still, honestly, one of the harder classes to deal with in an AP, but they can't flood the map with summons like that.
I would also suggest, when dealing with any character that plans on summoning things while using a maptool/roll20/etc. setup, that you keep a wad of icons on standby for anything they plan to summon (or require the player to do so). Without something like this, it just slows things down entirely too much.
I think a GM who's unwilling to make alterations to his published adventures will is going to have less fun than the one who's willing to tinker to fit the PCs.
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I am playing a MS and the way I do it is
1. pick 1-3 monsters per level that you will use
2. have them on 3X5 cards and give them to other players to roll for.
My DM had the same concerns that you are expressing however,as long as you have a player that is well prepared things should go fairly smoothly. I rarely use my SLA more than twice in an encounter and when I do it is for battlefield control along with the pit spells, grease, etc.
Most important my fellow players do not feel overshadowed and love my summoner for the buffs and protection I offer.
Regardless of how they can or cannot be made to work in a homebrew game, within the context of an adventure path, the master summoner archetype is straight-up unworkable, and really should never be allowed.Balderdash.
A druid can summon as much as a master summoner, and they've been able to do so since 3.5 without problems.
Read the class, you are quite wrong. They get a large number of bonus Summons spells, 5 + his Charisma modifier, and the monsters last 10 times as long. So a 7th level summoner gets 21+ summons spells, while a Druid gets 14. And did I mention they last MINUTES per level, not rounds? So they can last into the next combat even longer. Even if not two combats, a MS can easily summon 5 times (each can have several creatures, of course) before combat occurs, while if a Druid tries that time runs out.
As he said: the master summoner archetype is straight-up unworkable, and really should never be allowed.
Heck, even JJ said the Summoner class as a whole was a mistake.
I think a GM who's unwilling to make alterations to his published adventures will is going to have less fun than the one who's willing to tinker to fit the PCs.
Why should he kowtow to just one of his players, the one who is hogging table time and the spotlight? There are FOUR players at the table, not just one.
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Hello all,
I'm running the Carrion Crown adventure path; we're currently on Broken Moon, at the Stairs of the Moon.
One of my PC's is a level 7 Summoner, Master Summoner archetype.
He never uses his Eidolon, instead just summoning 1d3+1 Small Elementals (Lightning, Fire, Mud, etc.) every round (he has the Superior Summoner feat giving him the +1 to the number he summons). He can do this 9/day and they stay summoned for 9 minutes each time.
I'm having a hard time as the DM with this character. Here are my problems:
1) It slows down everything. We play on roll20, and I have to make tokens for the new elementals every time, not to mention a new initiative spot for them, etc.
2) It seems overpowered. He basically summons a whole bunch of weak meat shields. Even if the elementals do little damage, they still represent another threat for the monsters to attack.
3) It fills up the board. With the flying elementals, he usually wants to stack them too. (What kind of rules are there for this type of stacking? The elementals themselves are small size, even if they do go in a square...)
Now, I don't want to hate this character. I realize that he has very little in the way of attacking spells, and his summons are basically it. I don't want to neuter this character, but I feel like he's overpowered. Is this all in my head and he's really not that powerful? Is there some weakness I am missing? Something I should be paying attention to? Do you folks have any advice how I should handle this going forward?
I am just ashamed at the way your player is playing. As someone who has played a Master Summoner before I can tell you two things.
1) I never stated out an Eidolon. The whole point of MS is to not need it.
2) My turns never took longer than a minute.
My suggestions:
Have player roll out to-hit and damage rolls before his turn. That way all he has to do is read out the results to you.
"Does X break AC?"
"Yes"
"Y damage"
"Does Z break AC?"
"No"
"Does Q break AC?"
And so forth
As a house rule, punish the player if he takes too long, by having his summons go rogue. There is 0 excuse as an MS for taking forever. It is not a class to be played lightly.
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Small elemental occupies just as much space as a medium creature. Until you start getting smaller, you fill that space. They can't stack in a square (thats why I mentioned tight confines). If they're airborne, think of the spaces like 5 foot blocks. Its gotta be at least five feet /up/ and the room might not be able to account for that without squeezing.
Action economy is answered by adding in more of your own, and as you have about as many players as I do (and I have a summoner too...) here are my suggestions.
Your base CR is your party's APL+2.
You do not ever want a single big baddie. You want a lot of threatening guys. And you want minions. You want gribbly little dudes.
The party wants to bring a small army, fight it with small armies. A good rule of thumb is about 3-4 gribbly nobodies (like apl-4) to each player. Flavor to taste. You want stuff that can cause trouble, but not overwhelmingly.
Like if they're 7th level characters, throwing a lot of kobolds at them. The kobolds aren't really a threat, but ignoring them can be dangerous.
However if you let someone else run those NPCs, and they are slow.. well then that's on you.
I disagree.
Playing a Master Summoner is not something you should do if you cannot handle it.
Master Summoner was banned in PFS (along with many other minion heavy archetypes) because of players like OP's who were not playing responsibly.
If you want to play the best class at summoning, then you better know how to play summons.
It's a demanding class and requires constant effort to keep running smoothly.
8> He doesn't get extra actions. *You* are the DM, and as such you run all the NPCs. Summons attack the nearest enemy unless directed to do otherwise. Regardless he does not get to move them around like a chessmaster.
No, they are not NPC's, they are part of his class abilities.
And, with a few orders he can direct them.
What I am saying is that this belief that the player runs NPCs is not grounded in fact. The DM runs the NPCs, and that includes the summons.Sure most DMs let players run those NPCs, but if they cannot.. why is the DM letting them?
-James
They are not NPCs, they are a class feature, or a spell. The DM doesn;t say what they do anymore than the DM sez where the fireball goes.
"This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. "
Tell the player you are getting tired of all the extra work with their multiple summons clogging up every encounter. It isn't fair to you or the other players. Ask the player to change their character to something else, perhaps a vanilla summoner with one pet.
I just noticed that the player is making a mistake against his own interests -- if he is 7th level, his spell-like ability is Summon Monster IV. Since Small Elementals are on the Summon Monster II list, he is actually entitled to d4+1 of them, or d4+2 with Superior Summoning.
Control is an issue that can be addressed with ranks in Linguistics skill -- he needs to learn as many outsider languages as possible to give orders to his summoned minions. And note that there is no telepathic link as there is with an eidolon, so if he wants to direct their actions, he has to shout orders to them in a language that they can understand.
To nerf a master summoner, try having battles in underground dungeons can also help nerf a master summoner who likes to flood the battlefield with his minions. I often have difficulties with my summoner in dungeons, and he is a standard summoner who usually has only his eidolon summoned.
What I am saying is that this belief that the player runs NPCs is not grounded in fact. The DM runs the NPCs, and that includes the summons.Sure most DMs let players run those NPCs, but if they cannot.. why is the DM letting them?
-James
They are not NPCs, they are a class feature, or a spell. The DM doesn;t say what they do anymore than the DM sez where the fireball goes.
"This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. "
As far as PFS is concerned, summons are part of the player's sphere.
Summoning AT ALL in PFS requires owning a bestiary and they will argue you blue in the face that summons are spell effects not NPCs ergo you have to own the rules for them to use them.
Tell the player you are getting tired of all the extra work with their multiple summons clogging up every encounter. It isn't fair to you or the other players. Ask the player to change their character to something else, perhaps a vanilla summoner with one pet.
Really the player can just do the work. If he's not willing to do the work, he shouldn't play the class.
I'm not familiar with Roll20, but can't you just make the tokens ahead of time and keep them on the edge of the map until it's time to bring them in?