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For a full example of a slayer/horizon walker build:

Half Orc Slayer
Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice (endurance)
1.) Slayer 1: Power Attack
2.) Slayer 2: Slayer Talent: TWF
3.) Slayer 3: Two-weapon Rend, Sneak Attack: 1d6
4.) Slayer 4: Slayer Talent: Trapfinding
5.) Slayer 5: Double Slice
6.) Slayer 6: Slayer Talent: Improved TWF, Sneak attack: 2d6
7.) Horizon Walker 1, Favored Terrain: Urban, Feat: Outflank
8.) Horizon Walker 2, Favored Terrain: Astral, Terrain Mastery: Astral
9.) Horizon Walker 3, Terrain Dominance: Astral, Feat: Dimensional Agility
10.) Slayer 7
11.) Slayer 8: Combat Trick (Improved Critical), Feat: Dimensional Assault
12: Slayer 9: Sneak Attack 3d6
13.) Slayer 10:Slayer Talent: Greater TWF, Feat: Dimensional Dervish
14.) Slayer 11:
15.) Slayer 12: Sneak Attack 4d6, Feat: Dimensional Savant


I think that's about as good as you can do. I spent a few talents on general utility (trapfinding, evasion, urban/astral hide in plain sight), but the rest of it's just straight damage, homie.

A few nice twists:
Half-orcs get a 1d8/1d8 double weapon, so no particular need to spend a feat on sawtooth sabre.
You can get endurance as a racial trait, so no need to blow a feat on it.
Strength-dependence means that Two-Weapon Rend is basically another attack.
Power attack works dandy.
Plenty of free feats and talents in the build. I choose trapfinding, evasion, slayer camouflage and two-weapon rend/double slice, but you can do whatever.

You _will_ be glass cannony, but your nova potential is absolutely ridiculous. This build might be even better with ranger as a base, just for all the favored enemies you could have

I'm pretty much with BigDTBone. GMs sorta gotta learn, eventually, how to balance encounters in pathfinder so that everybody enjoys themselves. Fighting with the GM is always a bad idea.

That said, you could also just do stuff other than blasting next time you fight a dragon. Plenty of things you can do that don't involve SR.

Seems like you're both being a bit inflexible to me. You believe that you should always be able to blast things. He believes that his dragons should be super-difficult to blast.

You could also, in the flavor of Secane's idea, pick up Shatterspell feat (as a dwarf), at 10.


Synthesist summoner can still pretty casually do all this, and that's mainly a melee character.

I would imagine, with the advent of Divine Protection, a lot more melee characters can do this too.

Perhaps a better challenge would be to do slightly easier challenges with level 12 PFS-legal characters, so we'd get something more interesting than a caster jacking their save DCs?

-Cross (Oh wait, we'd probably still get casters jacking their save DCs. XD At least no mass suffocate!)

Unknown Ediology wrote:
Wolfism wrote:
Brawler from the advanced class playtest might be a good base. They get a scaling bonus to maneuvers and can gain feats as needed to do different things effectively in different situations.
This is one option I was going to suggets. Their ability to spontaneously gain any feat (or feats) can make them very versatile when it comes to combat. The only down-side is the limitation on that ability; it won't last you more than a fight, usually. Maybe two if you're conservative.

Whoa. Exciting melee character, and we haven't talked about the Swashbuckler from the advanced class playtest? Dandy damage, bonuses for telling huge lies, stabbing people to death, and tumbling about?


andreww wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

Limburger, who only fails that save on a roll of 3 or less, and bludgeons all the Beastmass challenges to death with punchification (only being hit by any of them on a natural 20), feels sad about being dismissed.


The caster entrants mock Limburgers inability to locate them while invisible and mind blanked and then kill him with no save spells.

...Limburger happens to be a full caster too. He has access to many, many castings of true seeing. It should be mentioned that he ain't going to fail a save, and without a quickened true strike, people aren't really going to hit him with touch attacks. =)

The lesson, of course, is that no conversation about silly broken characters is complete without the synthesist summoner.


Brotato wrote:

Jehova's Mass Suffocation Diviner, Vacuum, kills One without taking a point of damage unless One rolls a 20 on his Fort save. (DC 47 Mass Suffocation)

Vacuum was able to complete the first Beastmass in a single day, without re-memorizing spells or taking a single point of damage. No other Beastmass contestant really comes close.

Limburger, who only fails that save on a roll of 3 or less, and bludgeons all the Beastmass challenges to death with punchification (only being hit by any of them on a natural 20), feels sad about being dismissed.


Also, good job noting that summoning the Glabrezu is a full-rounder. If Limburger smites, the Mohrg doesn't live to get that off, so my silence nonsense may not be required.

(Suggest that Selena get some sort of silence for when she smashes down the door, as "Breaking down the door is highly likely to alert people to something being up.)


Also obscuring mist doesn't move either, even if it spreads out from you.

Serena is a _terrific_ example of the flexibility of a druid. Doesn't do anything super crazy or cheesy (her build would be allowed at 99% of tables - mine would get me kicked in the balls by a DM). Transitioning from tiny bird to GIANT MURDER HIPPO is great. The furious finish thing is adorable - I wish there was some way to get rage without blowing an otherwise wasted level in Barbarian.


Err, maybe I suck at adding. Drop both defensive items to +1. I cast barkskin on myself constantly, giving me +3 natural armor, so my AC is identical.

Total cost: 16+16+2+12+2+2.5+3k+.8 = 54.3

Also, I screwed up on the skill focus thing. Go ahead and make it skill focus: arcane. I still have the diplomacy (and change) to move the dragon's attitude up two. Or keep it at diplomacy and replace improved eldritch heritage (arcane) with...anything. I lose initiative to one or two things, but not the end of the world, as none of the physical fights are close given stoneskin.


devilbunny wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

Very impressive. However, Cloaks of Charisma and Cloaks of Resistance occupy the same slot, so they don't stack. Also since no crafting is available, you can't change the it into, for example, a ring of resistance or something. That's really only a minor quibble though. I doubt getting rid of one of those items would change any of the encounters significantly. Really, the only encounter that poses a true challenge to the synthesist summoner is the magma dragon.

EDIT: Oh, you might also have trouble with the Avoral Agathions in Encounter 4. They have true seeing and see invisibility with a +23 Perception, so you'll definitely be spotted and the alarm will be rung. Things could get pretty tricky from there.

EDIT 2: I'll try my hand at this next with a druid. I doubt she'll have as much success as the summoner though. I'm also wondering now about how a martial character would fare against these encounters given the lack of access to spells.

Hey, sorry, Cloaks of Charisma don't actually exist in pathfinder. It's circlets of charisma. I played a lot of 3.5.

Re: Avoral Agathons. You're basically only going to reliably beat that with either diplomatic stuff or a hyper-optimized stealth character. It's a little tough to argue that diplomatic stuff ("I REALLY NEED TO GO TO THE BATHROOM") would help over a message board. Basically, if you can do it via anything other than straight stealth, this character can probably do it.

Also, I got like 0 use out of my 11 casts of Summon Monster 4. Because I, Crosswind, am a trashy player of casters and don't know what monsters are useful for what.

(Also, I can't Maker's Jump while silenced. I'd have to have dimension door memorized and use it with the rod of silence for the Morgh encounter)

Edit: I could trade my familiar for Still Spell, drop a stilled, silenced Obscuring Mist, and just leave. People would know there was a mist, but it might take some time to identify me as the person who wasn't there any more. I'll have the thing stolen inside of about 2 minutes because I'm just smashing doors and golems after that.

Seems a bit of a waste to blow a feat for still spell tho' =D

-Cross (I am 100% certain that a wizard could crush these encounters with scry + die at 10th level, by the way. But it's more interesting/tougher to smash your way through 'em)

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Heyo. I'm going to break rules slightly by using Synthesist (not PFS legal). Return of Limburger, Half-Elf Paladin of Vengeance/Synthesist.

Build: Pal(2)/Synth(8)

7/7/7/14/16/18+2(+2 levels)

Trait: Anything that gives diplomacy as a class skill along with +1.
Trait: Anything that gives Perception as a class skill along with +1.

Skills: Stealth, Perception, UMD, Knowledge: Planes

Feats: Improved Initiative, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Extra Evolution(x2),Power Attack, Improved Arcane Heritage

Eidolon Evolution Pool (11+2+2=15): Head(x2)(4), Bite(x2)(2) + Improved Natural Armor(x2)(2), Pounce(1), Large(4), Improved Dex (2)

Relevant Combat Stats Before Equipment And Abilities(Eidolon ability score to str):
BAB: +8
Base Saves: 2/2/6 + 3/0/3 = 5/2/9

Gear: +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists (1k), +4 Cloak of Charisma (16k), +1 Belt of Giant's Strength (16k), +3 Cloak of Resistance (9k), +2 amulet of natural armor (4k), +2 Ring of Protection (4k), Boots of Speed (12k), rod of silence (lesser) (3k), golembane scaraab (2.5k) = 57.5k, 2 scrolls of level 8 acute senses (400 or 800 each). Spend the rest on wands of cure light wounds

Relevant Stats After Abilities And Gear:
Attack Bonus: 8+10(str)+1(Amulet)-1(Large)+1(10 rounds of haste, gonna use 'em) -3 (Power attack)= +16/+16/+16/+16 (Haste!)
Damage: d8 + 15 (str) + 9(Power attack) + 1 (Amulet)
Saves: 5/2/9 + 3/2/3 (Stats) + 3/3/3 (Cloak) + 8/8/8 (Paladin) + 2/2/2(Shielded Meld) = 5/2/9 + 16/15/16 = 21/17/25
AC (Mage Armor always cast): 10 + 4 (Armor) + 12 (Natural Armor) + 2 (Deflection) + 1 (Haste) + 2 (Dexterity) - 1(Large) +2 (Shielded Meld)= 30

Initiative: +10

1: Mage Armor
2: Resist Energy, Invisibility, Silence
3: Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility

Okay, let's fight stuff.
Encounter #1: Due to a complete lack of tact, Limburger ends up fighting 4 hell hounds, 4 cave trolls, a fire giant, and a succubus. Since he knows he's fighting a fire giant, he will have cast Resist Energy (Fire) On himself first.

Let's establish one thing: The succubus, cave trolls, and hell hounds cannot actually do damage. We only fail their saves on natural 1s, they only hit on natural 20s. This combat isn't going to last long enough for them to do much that's relevant. The only question is how much damage I take before exploding the hill giant and then mopping up everybody else.

On a full attack vs. AC 24, my expected damage (ignoring crits for laziness) is 4*(.65*29.5) = 76.25. Kills the hill giant in 2 rounds. I almost certainly go first (+10 initiative), so hill giant gets in 1 round of attacks. Ow!

Against AC 30, it does: 22.05ish points of damage (full attack is better against me than its 2 slams). I am suitably sad, kill it, and butcher everything else casually without haste.

If the succubus gets salty, I can dimensional anchor her before butchering things. So she can't teleport away.

Can heal back the damage with lay on hands or some good old fashioned cure light wounds wands.


We don't really care about zombies, because we can kill pretty infinite numbers of them just as soon as we've dealt with the mohrg. We pretty much need to prevent him from summoning the Glabrezu, because that sucker is going to power word: stun us and that's going to be unpleasant.

There are probably a number of ways around this, but the easiest one is this: Somehow figure out where in the damn dungeon the thing is. Wait 'til it's in a not-huge-room (one I can affect with silence). I have 10k, and 11 castings of Summon Monster 4. I can probably do this.

So we cast invisibility and silence on ourselves. Use Maker's Jump (supernatural, not affected by silence) to dimension door to the morg. Beat it on initiative while blocking the door, and slug it out. I do 65 damage to it a round, killing it in 3 rounds. Odds are okay that it gets 2 rounds off of full attacking or futilely trying to cast spells. Let's have it full attack. Not failing that fort save except on a natural 1, so it does about 28 points of damage per round (...about 8 through stoneskin) for 2 rounds.

No worries. Kill him, run around cheerily murdering zombies, declare victory. Heal up with a wand or with lay on hands, we probably didn't take too much damage.

Note that we could also smite this dude, killing him in 2 rounds. Nothing later on requires our smite-age.


Encounter #3:

Erinyes + Devil can't hit, and cant make Limburger fail saves. The Hill giants, as a group, are going to about 5-9 points of damage a round through stoneskin. The cleric is dead in 2 rounds, taking 50 damage a round. He can't make Limburger fail saves, and he can't get away.

It takes Limburger some time to clean up everything, but there's no real threat here.

Encounter #4:
I talk to everybody at the party. My diplomacy check is at +28. I determine everybody who is a guard by auto-succeeding at dem will saves. I will talk random people into Distracting the guards, lowering their perception by 5. at a +18, using a rod of silence to cast invis, I can sneak past more or less guaranteed (20+10+3+1). With an attitude of Helpful, I can probably convince them to let me out too.

Being a master of subtlety, I cast silence on myself after making sure I am not invisible. I batter the door down silently (30 strength) and succeed at my saving throw against the polymorph. The golem and I cheerily bludgeon eachother for 2 rounds (hint: I win casually).

Use the scroll of acute senses (drop silence). My perception check is now 10 (levels) + 2 (wisdom) + 20 = 32. I find it, leave the party. Maybe I smash my way through a wall or something.

Encounter #5:
...we don't suuuper believe in diplomacy if we can avoid it through wanton violence. We fight it!

We don't power attack, so we do 32 points of damage a round (....stuuupid high AC.) Sadly, we can't smite this thing. Nonetheless, it's going to die in ...6 rounds? 7? Let's see how much damage it does to us.

We have about 105 hit points, plus 80 from Stoneskin that sure as hell are going to be used. Nonetheless, it currently does like 55 points of damage to us a round, so it's going to kill us in 4 rounds. What? we're losing? Nooo, we're going to have to use spells. Or worse, DIPLOMACY. Gross.

We're not suuuper far off from brawling this down, but I'm not sure what money or spells I'd spend to make it easy to do. The fact that it's not evil sorta hurts us.

To beat this, we're just going to rely on our stupid, stupid charisma. Our diplomacy is 10(ranks) + 1(trait) + 6(Skill Focus) + 8(charisma) + 3 (class skill) = +28.

Damnit. Stupid diplomacy. WHEN WAR FAILS...

Our average roll is a 38, which makes the DC of 23 and turns him from Unfriendly to Friendly. We agree that the locals will give him sheep and in return, he'll protect them from raiders, wolves, and Demonic Morghs.

It should be noted that if this jackass had the common decency to be evil, we could probably smite him and win.

-Cross (Caveat: OBVIOUSLY I HANDWAVE AWAY A BUNCH OF THINGS, among them crit chance because I'm lazy. But I think this is pretty reasonable.

deuxhero wrote:
Even with extremely stinky cheese, it's pretty hard to beat Wizard 20, even if they just have core.

Yeah. The problem with wizards is that they function extremely well in the best case scenario (when prepared), and extremely poorly in a worst-case scenario (when unprepared).

The above build functions extremely well in all scenarios, which is neat.


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This is the b#@#@+@+tiest build, from 1-20, that I am aware of. It is the only straight ass-kicker (no save or die, gives no f*!&s about what dice are rolled) to thoroughly whoop on Beastmass. It is virtually unkillable, won't really fail saves, and pretty my teleport-gibs anything in about 1 turn.

Build: Half elf Synthesist (16), Oath of Vengeance Paladin (4)
Laaaaame Stats (20 point buy): 7/7/7/8/18/18+2
Half elf class bonus goes to summoner for +5 evolution points.

S1: Extra Evolution + SF(Perception), Fused Link
S1/P1: Smite
S1/P2: Improved Initiative, Divine Grace, Lay On Hands
S3/P2: Extra Evolution
S5/P2: Power attack
S6/P2: Maker's Jump
S7/P2: Dimensional Agility
S8/P3: Extra Evolution
S8/P4: Channel Wrath
S9/P4: Dimensional Assault
S11/P4: Extra Evolution
S12/P4: Greater Shielded Meld
S13/P4: Extend Spell
S15/P4: Quicken Spell

YOUR EIDOLON'S BUILD: (Final Points: 21 base, 4 feats, 4 HE favored class bonus)
1 (4 Points): Quadruped (Bite, some limbs), Improved Natural Armor (1), Head (2), Pounce (1)
4 (5 Points): 1 Spare
5 (7 Points): Head (2), Improved Natural Armor (1), 1 Spare
6 (10 Points): Head (2), 2 spare.
7 (11 Points): 3 Spare.
8 (12 Points): 4 Spare
9 (13 Points): Improved Natural Armor (1), 4 Spare
10 (15 Points): 6 Spare
11 (16 Points): 7 Spare
13 (18 Points): 9 Spare Improved Natural Armor (1)
14 (19 Points): Huge (10)
15 (21 Points): Head (2)
16 (22 Points): 1 spare
17 (23 Points): Improved Ability Score (Dex) (2)
18 (25 Points): Head (2)
19 (27 Points): Improved Ability Score (Dex) (2)
20 (29 Points): Improved Ability Score (Dex) (2)


Here's the basic thing. At level 1, you take Mage Armor and some healing. Your AC is 10 (base) + 2 (Dex) + 2(Improved Natural Armor) + 4(Mage Armor). You can pounce and you do reasonable damage with your two heads. Most importantly, if you're not in that form, you can cast Summon Monster 1 like...oh...6 times in a day.

This is your weakest level. Your attack, AC, and saves go crazy over the next few levels, as you gain the ability to heal yourself a ton (lay on hands), get +5 to all saves.

In the end, with equipment, you end up looking like this:
Initiative is at 17, we have 65/37/52 AC, 44/38/43 saves, and we have 6 attacks at +52, so we only miss anything on a natural 1. We have reach and teleport-pounce, so we’re full attacking every round. When we get to attack, we do 275 damage which ignores all DR.


Obviously, you should never actually play this character, as it's complete b~@$!#%#. Not sure that you can't make a stronger level 1 character, but, I think, on average across all levels, this is altogether the most b+&#*%@# build in Pathfinder.


Re: Feat > Ability Score.

It ain't, sadly. Not for a fighter.

You're up to your neck in feats. Consider: At a minimum, +2 dex gives you +1 to all attacks (obviously much better than a feat). At a minimum, +2 Strength gives you +1 to all damage (...not necessarily better than a feat, but very close.)

You will find a lot of wand advocates on these boards. The usefulness of wands is 100% dictated by whether or not you frequently have enough time to buff before combat in your session. If you do, wands are amazing. If you do not, wands are crap.

I'm not a PFS player, but I'm guessing (because a lot of guys are), that you can frequently buff before combat.


...boy, do I not remember the crit range changing on aspect of the falcon. erk.

I'm 99.99% I have read errata that gloves of dueling were supposed to apply to all weapon trainingesque features, so I think Expert Archer would apply.

I am not a PFS player myself (I thiiink falcon's aim are outlawed because they are ooobviously a bit overpowered).

I think the primary insights of the above are:
Precise Shot provides more DPR than rapid shot if you have to choose.
You will have more feats than you know what to do with as a fighter.
Gloves of dueling are the most cost-efficient mid-level item to up archery damage efficacy in the game.

And a general idea of what DPR you can expect to do.


Weird! It totally works for me. Hrm. Here it is, copied and pasted. the full thread is here: It basically asks "Is there an average DPR for a reasonably optimized character", so I built an archer, because their DPR is super predictable.

CAVEAT: I am going to be lazy about some stuff, like what I can retrain/alternate build paths. This is an approximation. I'm also not buying boots of haste. Haste makes all damage crazy. =)

I'd compare to a fighter-archer's full attack. There are some tricks you can probably use. Let's try this:

Dual-Talented Human Archer, 20 point buy


1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2: Rapid Shot
3: Deadly Aim
4: WF: Longbow
5: WS: Longbow
6: Manyshot
7: ???
8: Greater Weapon Focus, Retrain the feat at (7) to get Improved Critical: Longbow
9: ??
10: Clustered Shots
11: ??
12: Greater Weapon Spec: Longbow

For stuff to buy:
1: Longbow
2: +4 Strength Composite Longbow ~500
3: Bow+1 ~2500
4: Bow+1, +2 Dex belt ~6500
5: Bow+1, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim ~ 10500
6: Bow+2, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim ~16500
7: Bow+2, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim ~16500
8: Bow+2, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~31k
9: Bow+3, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~41k
10: Bow+4, +2 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~54k
11: Bow+5, +4 Dex Belt, Bracers of Falcon's Aim, Gloves of Dueling, ~85k
12: Bow+5, +4 Dex Belt, Greater Bracers of Archery, Gloves of Dueling, ~106k

We're always going to rapid shot + full deadly aim, so our AB is going to be something like:

6 5 6 8 11 13 14 18 21 23 26 27

and our damage is going to be something like:

8.5000 8.5000 11.5000 13.5000 16.5000 17.5000 17.5000 21.5000 23.5000 24.5000 25.5000 31.5000

and monster AC is something like

15 15 16 16 18 20 19 21 22 23 26 26

So, our dpr comes out to:

1: 5.8650
2: 10.7525
3: 14.5475
4: 21.3900
5: 30.0300
6: 58.0125
7: 67.1125
8: 93.6325
9: 114.5625
10: 125.8075
11: 149.1750
12: 194.5125


1.) That was a pain in the @#$%!
2.) Obviously I violate some of the DPR olympics threads about not having crappy AC and such. This is a character exclusively for damage
3.) I probably violate some basic pathfinder rules about spending more than half my cash on a single item.

That said, these numbers are probably not hugely far off.


Hey, OP, don't know if you care, but a while ago I statted out what I _believe_ was a DPS per Level Optimal Human Fighter Archer to get a standardized DPS. I included equipment buys and in what order to do everything.

He's glass cannony as @#$% tho'.


Here's a couple of suggestions for making your own boss fights:

1.) Break the rules. A lot. Make up your own damn abilities. Make some of them immediate actions - make some of them free. The less players can figure out "OH THATS A FIREBALL.", the more mystery/novelty/interest there will be.

2.) Stage your fights - avoid slugfests. Generally, as soon as players solve one step, you want the next step to appear quickly. Example: Your players are fighting some sort of vampire boss. Give him a few tricks to make initial combat interesting, but get it over in a few rounds. He turns into gaseous form - now, skill-challenge style, the PCs have to get to/stop his gaseous form as he tries to escape through the sort of labyrinth a vampire would design to let his gaseous form get out. They might catch him and have to fight some stuff at the end of this. This provides a nice non-combat break between an initial combat and a final combat, and makes the boss-fight a bit more epic.

Hope this helps!


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Short answer:
Alchemists aren't overpowered.

Character optimizers are overpowered.


I feel obliged to weigh in here. "AC doesn't matter unless it's awesome" is one of the big myths we perpetrate on these forums, in defiance on basic, basic, basic math.

Before we get to this basic math, let's get two things out of the way:

Wizards get SWUNG AT less than fighters. All defensive options are slightly less appealing, just because those defensive options come into play less. Figure out how much you care about defense, and then evaluate your defensive options.

Wizards also have some nonconventional options (greater invis, fly, gaseous form, etc) that effectively make them unable to be hit by certain things.

But, fundamentally, assuming somebody can miss you on a natural 2, +1 AC costs the wizard the same amount it costs the fighter. The wizard can upgrade in all the same slots as the fighter (buckler, bracers, ring, amulet, etc). And every +1 he gets has a FLAT 5% chance, per swing, of saving him from being hit.

Thaaat's how AC works. The investment doesn't suddenly become better or more efficient because you have high AC. 5% chance!

So, obviously, you may have things you want more, on a wizard. You may value defense less because you don't get swung at as much, or because you have ways to avoid getting swung at entirely. But because of the polynomial (squared) cost structure of the price of AC, you're silly if you don't buy up the low-end AC items at some point.


Imbicatus wrote:

Pretty sure invising the flag breaks Flagbearer.


Flagbearer (Combat)

Prerequisites: Cha 15.

Benefit: As long as you hold your clan, house, or party’s flag, members of that allegiance within 30 feet who can see the flag (including yourself ) gain a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws against fear and charm effects. You must hold the flag in one hand in order to grant this bonus. If the standard is taken by the enemy or destroyed, this bonus becomes a penalty, affecting all creatures that the bonus previously affected for 1 hour (or until you reclaim the lost flag).

whores. you are totally right.


Seriphim84 wrote:

@ Crosswind and MRSin

I am aware that you can do that but I don't think it works RAW.

First all immediate action spells that use somatic components are out. your can't use free actions if it isn't your turn.

Second, if you take one hand off the spear all the benefits of the flag are gone. This may (and this one I am not sure about) drop the power of inspire courage because you are not getting the bonus. yes you can put your hand back on at the end of your turn but that's after spells songs are sang.

Edit: So I am clear, I really love this idea and may use it in the future and just want to make sure it all works :)

You're right.

Stupid question: Isn't this problem easily solved by taking eldritch heritage: arcane and making the longspear your bonded weapon?

It's not, honestly, like buffer bards have an assortment of good feats. It's Improved Initiative, Lingering Song, and Dischordant Voice. Those are actually the only 3 feats that should be blue - everything else is pretty superfluous. Plenty of feats left over to pick up an arcane focus by level 7 or 9, when you can afford a banner.

-Cross (You don't get a familiar, but whatever.)

Emmit Svenson wrote:

I love the Banner of Ancient Kings. But.

There's no way to keep it from getting sundered. It's cloth. Any creature from a tribal or feudal culture will recognize the importance of morale in a fight, and cut the thing off your spear. Ditto for military opponents. Ditto for anything with enough spell knowledge to recognize the magic item.

One swipe of a blade from some 2-HD mook and your big Flagbearer bonus becomes a debuff for an hour. All the bonuses that you and your companions would normally get from Courageous weapons are gone. And on top of that, it takes a 16th-level casting of Make Whole to fix it, so until your party is leveled that high, you'll pay thousands of gold every time it's destroyed, if you even have a scroll or can jet back to a city.

If you can provide ways around that problem, you will have written a very useful guide.

How to prevent your BoAK from being sundered. This is actually fairly difficult. Here's what my brainstorming has produced:


a.) Pole or spear of at least 8 feet
b.) Two hands!

1.) This guy doesn't need to actually attack. ...nothing much preventing him from putting his banner on like, a 30 foot pole. At least make it hard as hell for a non-giant melee guy to attack it. Ok, this is like a C- idea.

2.) ...can't we just cast invis on the banner? It's an object, and we're not going to attack with it. Would make it hard as hell to detect, and therefore attempt to sunder. If the bad guys don't know it's there, seems like they won't sunder it. This _feels_ wrong, though - how does the party get inspired by a banner they can't see. Still, we're going with a B+ idea here.

3.) ...can we somehow make an item immune to sunder? I haven't found a convenient way to do this. Build an adamantium cage? Not terribly expensive (couple of thousand). Still, looks dumb. I'm going with B- here.

4.) Obviously, you can just spam windy escape attempts to save your poor flag, once a round. Vulnerable to multiple sunders a round, spends resources and immediate actions. C- idea.

5.) Flying helps a lot, because you have to be in melee to sunder. Lots of times you can't do this. Similar to (1).


Ultimately, I think invising the item is probably the best RAW way to prevent it from being sundered, or flying.


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Seriphim84 wrote:

I have to point out a critical flaw in this build idea. Namely that you can't use the banner of ancient kings and cast any spells.

"As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands...."

When using the banner you must hold it in Two Hands to get the effect. This means that you can't cast spells because you have no free hands.

The easiest way to fix it though is to make the guy an arcane duelist.

Pros, cast spells while wielding the flag, blade thirst and mass blade thirst (over some DR and ghost touch), and ability to wear armor.

Cons your skills are destroyed, you have to rely on your own abilities for skills. It also comes with a bunch of useless feats (if your not planning on attacking).

RAW, easy to get around. Might annoy the piss out of your DM:

Your turn starts.
Shift to hold it in one hand (free action) whatever.
Shift to hold it in two hands (free action)
Allies get all the bonuses during their turn.


Very nice guide. Couple things.

1.) Blistering Invective is worth your time. Guaranteed standard action to turn almost all your enemies shaken for a round or two (that intimidate check is facile to make), and do a bit of damage.

2.) I think your 3rd level spell list is a bit questionable. Specifically, you're missing out on:

2a.) Glibness, a spell so good it's almost broken. Auto-success on a bluff check is just ridiculous. Can't emphasize this enough.

2b.) Symphony of the Elysian heart pretty much negates the need for mass featherstep, because you can freedom of movement everybody on the cheap.

2c.) Sculpt Sound is a really excellent utility spell that no bard should be without.


ecw1701 wrote:
Looks good to me, Crosswind. Although once again, unless you play a Maenid or something I'm overlooking, you'll need at least 8 levels of one or the other until you can access Beyond Morality, so it might have to be 8 Barb/4 Paladin/8 Barb which alters things slightly, but should still play pretty similarly.

Yeah, plays pretty much identically, except it sucks a bit more at earlier levels, because the first 4 levels of paladin are frontloaded as hell.


Here's my take on a similar thing to what VM did:

Human Oath of Vengeance Paladin (4) Barbarian Invulnerable Rager (16):

Stats: 16(+2)/13/14/7/7/16

Level 1 (P): Power Attack, Combat Reflexes (Smite)
Level 2 (B): (Rage)
Level 3 (B): Lesser Beast Totem, Superstition
Level 4 (P): (Divine grace)
Level 5 (P): Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon (Mercy, immune to fear/disease)
Level 6 (P): (Super-smite from Oath of Vengeance)
Level 7 (B): ERP: With Hunter
Level 8 (B): Spell Sunder
Level 9 (B): ERP: Beast Totem
Level 10 (B): Greater Beast Totem
Level 11 (B): Dazing Assault
Level 12 (B): Come and Get Me
Level 13 (B) : Improved Critical
Level 14 (B) : Strength Surge
Level 15 (B): Critical Focus
Level 16 (B): Improved Damage Reduction
Level 17 (B): Staggering Critical
Level 18 (B): Improved Damage Reduction
Level 19 (B): Stunning Critical
Level 20 (B): Improved Damage Reduction


Big trade-offs:
Positives for my build:
1.) I pick up the core barbarian stuff a bit earlier (Greater beast at 10 vs. 13, CAGM at 12 vs. 15, spell sunder at 8 vs 9, etc)
2.) I end up with a 5/- more DR (4 more levels of invulnerable rager, 3 Improved Damage reductions)
3.) Superstition saves are a lot better. 15 levels of human class bonus = +5 to all saves.
4.) Full critical focus build on mine. Critical feats are stupid good at high levels.
5.) I pick up strength surge. Strength Surge + Spell Sunder + Rage Cycling = Automatically gets rid of spells. Can't miss this. =)

Negatives for my build:
1.) I don't get to cure staggered condition.
2.) He has 1 more lay on hands.
3.) God is my int/wis embarrassing.
4.) I have a little less self-healing
5.) I don't get to use a holy magic sword for 1 combat.

Same basic idea, I think the feat/class progression is a little more optimized in my case.


Not sure if this is what you're asking, but I think the most useful book you could give a person who wants to play in your DND campaign is a fantasy book which fits the overall theme of your campaign.

Get people in the right mood, brain spinning, etc.


Marthkus wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

Synthesists can get nearly unhittable AC with large damage and good saves very easily, while only being dependent on one stat(charisma) and being full casters. They have very few weaknesses.

At low low levels this is true. They fall off at later levels.

Not really. I'm pretty sure my synthesist here ( s) is the only character that doesn't rely on winning initiative or a big save-or-die spell to kill every big monster in the game without resting. Hell, he doesn't even need to buff.

While synthesists never acquire the unparalleled late-game utility of pure casters (due to summoners' somewhat limited spell list), they still are leaps and bounds better than any melee class, while being way more survivable than any spellcaster.

They basically have no weaknesses, early or late game.


Synthesists can get nearly unhittable AC with large damage and good saves very easily, while only being dependent on one stat(charisma) and being full casters. They have very few weaknesses.

The problem is that there are about 3 ways to actually deal with a synthesist, and GMs get bored doing those 3 things to them every fight, so they just (correctly) ban the class.


Brad McDowell wrote:

Ew. Excellent point, Cross. Thanks. Darnit though, I'm really looking for reasons NOT to be a human. But I like your thinking.

And Zedor, I'm not trying to be snarky. I just have a very specific question, and I'm not a big fan of people telling me how to optimize my builds when I ask for advice. Also, if you notice, this is a PFS build. There's no houserules. There's PFS rules.

...WELL, you could look at it this way instead. Belt of Dwarvenkind isn't EXACTLY the same.

It costs 1 item slot + 25k to get to evasion.

To get to the skill bonus, darkvision, and +1 to all saves costs 10k (ioun stone) + 12k (goggles of night) + pittance for the skill bonus

which isn't as imbalanced as buying the dwarf item. So we have either proven that Belt of Dwarvenkind is overpowered (it sorta is), or goggles of night are ridiculously overpriced (it sort of is), or some combo. =)

-Cross (Note that I'm trying to keep the "number of slots used" the same, which is why I buy an ioun stone instead of something else)

drbuzzard wrote:
As I said before, add double to that heavy crossbow and it gets even worse.

Legit. That's totally worse.


Okeydokey. Human + Evasion.

Just from a gold efficiency standpoint.

You can get more benefits of being a half-orc with a belt of dwarvenkind (~15k).

Evasion is 25k.


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Robert A Matthews wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

By itself, it's not awesome.

With Foehammer (, it's sort of amazing. You can basically prevent enemies from ever getting a single attack off of on you, by knocking them 10 feet back and prone any time they get close. =)


Add truestrike to that and knock the enemy back 30 feet. All you need is one level of Sorcerer.

As the Pathfinder Advice Board's Greatest Defender of Cleave and Great Cleave, I am a big fan of the Captain America SLAM-CLEAVE wherein our hero knocks all enemies near him back a bunch and on their asses.


I mean, it's got to be the freaking heavy crossbow, right?

Takes 2 hands.
You don't get to apply strength or dex to damage.
You have to blow 2 feats (Rapid Reload, Crossbow Mastery) to be able to iteratively attack with it.

There's just nothing worse.

Any melee weapon that you can finesse, you can TWF and murder things with.
Any melee weapon that you can 2-hand, you can stack strength and murder things with.
Even thrown weapons, once you pack the quick draw feat tax and blinkback belt, you AT LEAST get to add your strength to damage. So you can do reasonable DPR.

Hell, even the Crossbowman archetype sucks.

You can't do reasonable DPR with a heavy crossbow. It just sucks. I humbly submit that it is the worst weapon in the game to specialize in. I'll make a trade: Somebody else make an optimized heavy crossbow user, and demand that I prove that ANY WEAPON OF THEIR CHOICE is worse, and I will make a weapon user of their weapon that does higher DPR.


By itself, it's not awesome.

With Foehammer (, it's sort of amazing. You can basically prevent enemies from ever getting a single attack off of on you, by knocking them 10 feet back and prone any time they get close. =)


I think I wrote a post on how to do this a while ago. You're basically going to run into two problems:

1.) Monsters and NPCs are going to outscale the party, without the party having magic items

2.) How the heck to let PCs play spellcasters?!


My proposed solution to (1), at the time, were pretty simple:

At level 3 and every 4 levels thereafter, everybody gets +1 to attack and damage.
At level 2 and every 4 levels thereafter, everybody gets +1 to all saves
Every level-up, you gain +1 AC
Every even level, you gain 1 stat point to put wherever you choose.

This is pretty rough, but it basically emulates the power of AC-boosting items, resist cloaks, magic weapons, and stat-boosting items, which are generally the most important things PCs buy.


(2) is more of a roleplay-y thing, which you've got some good examples on already. Think you have a reasonable handle on this already, but some more suggestions.

a.) Powerful NPCs should seek to control magic-users. Weak NPCs should be terrified of them - lynch mobs with pitchforks and torches

b.) Make magic creepy - describe it well, and even your player will think twice about using it.


The "Don't attack him!" guys are promoting a sort of dickish strategy. It's tactically optimal, but flawed: it's not letting your player shine - the whole @#$%ing poing of his build is to be hard to hit. Have people try to hit him. And fail.

Two big ideas, which probably have been mentioned, though:

1.) Pre-written APs are frequently crushed by even slightly-optimized parties. They work best if you modify a little bit. Add in a few more slightly lower-level monsters, some guaranteed-damage spellthrowers (magic missile), etc.

2.) In situations that can be problematically static (tight hallways, doorways, etc), make sure you give the party some incentive to be mobile. Players _like_ moving around, positioning, etcetera. A dungeon crawl that takes place with everybody phalanxing in a doorway every combat is lame. Some low-level spellcasters, some boiling oil, all can make an encounter a lot more interesting without actually making it much harder.


Brad McDowell wrote:

Front line melee build for PFS, dipping monk. All other things being even, do I...

go Half Orc for Darkvision, Rock Climber and Sacred Tattoo...or...
stay human which allows me the monk's Evasion?

...err, what? Why wouldn't you get Evasion as a half-orc also?


Razh wrote:
If cthulhu can be defeated even withouth mythic ranks (and by a single character!), what could be a possible real challenge for a optimised party of level 20 with 10 mythic ranks? A god? We would need stats for those.

We should probably clarify that there is plenty of room in between optimized and the builds which are presented, which are really, really, really optimized.


The synthesist build from Beastmass kills all of those critters in 2-3 rounds, can't be hit except on a natural 20, and fails saves only on a natural 1.


Pretty much all the things Mathwei said.

MatthewN wrote:
A careful reading of the Flagbearer feat shows that you cannot attach it to a longspear and get the bonus. You must carry the flag in a free hand.

Yeah. Which is what I thought until I read Banner of the Ancient Kings: r-of-the-ancient-kings

I ended up concluding that flagbearer is s$&@tily written. =)

A few quotes: "As long as the longspear or pole to which the banner is attached is firmly wielded in two hands..."

"If the banner’s carrier possesses the Flagbearer feat, the banner of the ancient kings doubles the morale bonuses granted by that feat"

So, by your reading, if I had a banner of the ancient kings attached to the longspear: I would get no bonus from the flagbearer feat, and thus doubling it would do nothing. Very sad for me.

I conclude, thus, that Flagbearer is pretty okay with you attaching a flag to a spear, getting its bonuses, and moving on with life.


That said, if you want to go hardcore Rules-As-Written on a pretty poorly-worded feat: Attach a flag to your longspear. Stab people with it on your turn. Wave it around in one hand on other people's turns.


Yeah, no big deal. Pick literally any race you want, it works fine with the build. You'll have 1 less +1 at level 8 (big freaking deal), and the stat bonus isn't as perfect.

If you want to be super party face, just go:

Str 14
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 16

As base stats. Pick literally any race with a charisma bonus, and follow the build above.

While versatile performance is nice, you'll have 7 skill points per level (8 if you go favored class, 9 if you go human), which is enough to rank up everything you need to maximum. You'll be plenty effective in melee, amazing out of combat, and generally great support.


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Hey - I am dumb, not super-sure what you mean by core. If Aasimar doesn't work for you, human or really any other race works fine. Aasimar's a touch better.

Hey OP. Bards experience a big power spike at level 7, so level 6 is a bit lackluster, but here's a (very, very, very) good support build. Your rogue will probably have most of the skills taken care of.

Aasimar (Angel-Blooded), Arcane Duelist


Str 16 (+2)
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 14 (+2)

1.) Lingering Song, (Arcane Strike)
2.) (Combat Casting)
3.) Improved Initiative
5.) (Arcane Bond (Longspear)), Flagbearer


0: Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Summon Instrument, Message, Dancing Lights
1: Silent Image, Cure Light Wounds, Liberating Command, Saving Finale
2: Blistering Invective, Gallant Inspiration, Silence, Glitterdust

Take Aasimar favored class bonus for Inspire Courage. It doesn't pay off yet, but it will soon.


Basic idea:
Wield a long spear and attach a flag to it. Sing Inspire courage, all the time, whenever you can. This gives everybody a +2 competence bonus to attack and damage, and a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage, for a total of +3/+3. Which is incredible. At level 8, your aasimar class bonus will up inspire courage to +3/+3. When you get a Banner of the Ancient Kings, that will up the morale bonus to +2/+2. Everybody attacking at +5/+5 is just terrific.

Meanwhile, you are pretty good at melee - 18 strength and arcane strike means you won't be able to be ignored. You can take power attack at 7 if you like.

Regarding Song Management:
Always start off combat playing a song. First, the bonuses are incredible. Second, you need to have a song playing to use Saving Finale. If somebody fails a save that they had a reasonable shot at making (and it's bad), Saving Finale them. Lingering Song will mean that everybody gets your bonuses for the next 2 rounds anyways, even if you don't have time to get your song back up.

Regarding Spell Management:
For level 1 spells, you will use Saving Finale a LOT. Liberating Command will be used infrequently, but when it is used, everybody will love you. Cure Light Wounds and Silent Image almost always have uses - you'll get your mileage out of them.

For level 2 spells, well, they're all good. Blistering Invective is a great second-round action if you can tag a lot of enemies with it, silence is situationally incredible, and the merits of glitterdust have been discussed.

I generally use Gallant Inspiration if it will get somebody to confirm a crit with a x3 or greater multiplier (thaaat's a lot of damage), or for a particularly important out of combat skill roll (critical trap-disable, diplomacy, and the like).

Bards are incredibly good in pathfinder. Enjoy, and feel free to ask any questions about the build. I'm currently playing a half-orc version of this!


Swift is fine, immediate is bad. Alternatively, make it a resistance bonus (so it's not useful at high levels), cap it at +5, and it's a fine level 1 spell too.

Immediate + Resistance Bonus + 5 cap = sort of useful at low levels, won't see much play later.

Swift + Sacred + Swift Action = Won't see much play at all, until high levels, when it will be up all the time.

I'd prefer the first.


You can absolutely run situations like this. The key is to make sure that there are _lots_ of possible options for PCs to take, not one. And that the PCs understand what they are. I think about 99% of unsatisfying encounters in DND come from the players and the GM having different visions of what's happening.

You have listed one: run away!

Ideally, you should have done the following:

1.) Made it _wildly_ clear to the PCs that they couldn't handle the thing in a straight-up combat. Like, if they think they can handle the allosaurus, have a bigger dinosaur come and just _crush_ it.

2.) Pre-fight, have shown the PCs some theoretical ways they could escape. Example:

2a.) Perception check to notice that the beast can't seem to knock over/fit through certain types of trees.

2b.) Geography check to note that there's probably a gorge around here

2c.) Survival check to know how to distract one/hide from one

3.) Give some environmental factors they could maybe use to win the fight if they wanted to. Nearby unstable tree to land on it, boulders, quicksand...


Another option: Up the ante. Have a herd of stampeding stegosauri interrupt. Now, the PCs have an enemy they can't fight (a herd), and a clear objective (omg, be anywhere but here).

Finally, and I can't stress this enough: It's fine to kill the PC, but make it satisfying. If the samurai wants to sacrifice himself, and the party can't talk him out of it, let him do it, and have it mean the difference between the party getting away and them getting munched.

The player will enjoy it, and the party will remember it fondly. Don't be grouchy about it.


Web. And remember that Liberating Command doesn't work on yourself. =)


Here's some creepy stuff to do:

1.) Have animals around the party be freaking out. Making a lot of noise, clearing out.

2.) Find a farmer's daughter or somebody kicked to death.

3.) Swaddle a redcap in an infant's wrap (so you can see only his eyes), and use his crying as a lure for the party (into redcap ambush).


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