Summons are not mentally controlled by the summoner. They are monsters. The DM runs them. Very simple.
This is false. Yes, it's your opinion, but it's not a fact and it's not the way the vast majority plays.
It's true they are not mentally contolled by the summoner, but they attack his foes to the best of their ability and he chooses who they attack, not to mention if he shares a language, he can tell them what to do.
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I am just ashamed at the way your player is playing. As someone who has played a Master Summoner before I can tell you two things.
1) I never stated out an Eidolon. The whole point of MS is to not need it.
2) My turns never took longer than a minute.
My suggestions:
Have player roll out to-hit and damage rolls before his turn. That way all he has to do is read out the results to you.
"Does X break AC?"
"Yes"
"Y damage"
"Does Z break
As someone who is playing a halfling MS level 14 who "can" SM close to 20 times a day
This sums it up, It is the players responsibility to make it go smoothly. I find that my combat round takes no longer than anyone else.
Totally agree on the eidolon I don't use mine except for fluff.
If anything I am not a burden nor a "spotlight hog". I rarely do more than 2 SLA per combat. I am for the most part invisible and flying buffing players and controlling the battlefield.
The role of the DM is to roleplay all of the NPCs, so that the players need only take on the role of their character.
Summoned Monsters are no more NPCs than a Fireball is.
Not to mention, the Player usually runs his cohort, mount, familiar, etc.
The role of the DM is to roleplay all of the NPCs, so that the players need only take on the role of their character.
Summoned Monsters are no more NPCs than a Fireball is.
Not to mention, the Player usually runs his cohort, mount, familiar, etc.
Technically you're incorrect. All of those things you mentioned are NPC's except the fireball. That's just a silly metaphor.
Anyway, Technically the DM runs all of those things. However, since that would be a monumental pain in the ass the DM usually just lets the player run Mounts, Summoned monsters, etc.
Delegation is a wonderful thing.
Calling anything in PF UP or OP requires ignoring many facets in this complicated game.
Rare are the distinctions like that between the Warrior class and the Fighter class, where the latter is clearly the former plus more. In such cases one class is clearly better than the other.
These forums tend to follow the mindset of Spells > anything not spells. And within the category of spells the mindset is generally conj > other schools. And within the category of conj for high level slots it tends to follow summons > not summons.
The Master Summoner has an abundance of high level "slots" in the form of SLAs that are able to do what the forums would call the best spells in the game, and as such becomes the best standard action in the game. Ergo Master Summoner is the best class.
This all hinges on multiple premises. The most fallacious of which is the idea that Spells > anything not spells. Barbarians tend to prove this premise wrong all by themselves.
Furthermore, the idea that being able to spam summons is the best tactic for a fullcaster to do is equally fallacious. There are many hard counters to this technique the most common of which is DR and decent saves, which both reduce DPR and the effectiveness of SLAs.
Summoning takes skill to both run fast and run well. Knowing the preparing the right monster for the right combat is critical to success. A real fullcaster throws around a few BFC spells, and buffs to just as much effect as a well played master summoner.
We're not trying to make him more effective. The GM is looking for ways to rebalance his game with tons of summon monsters mucking up the fights.If you summon the right elementals (almost always earth), they will do tons of damage.
You can try to summon less and more powerful critters. You will be nerfing yourself, but if it will be more fun for everyone...
Change superior summoning by summon good monster and check the hound archon and the foo lion. Both are very good (archon is more versatile).
And that is why I suggested to summon less creatures but more powerful. It is easier to resolve the actions of 1 creature rather than 1d4+2.
And that makes him LESS effective, not more. At 7th level each earth elemental has a +8 attack bonus and does 1d6+11 damage versus earth grounded creatures. That is a 45% to hit an average CR7 critter. Double that quantity of attacks (and increase to 50% of success) with a haste.
A lot of lower level summons is a hell of an option at that level. A swarm of earth elemental can destroy a good part of the enemies that they will face at that level. But is also a very slow option for resolving turns.
Less summons, more powerful. Is a weaker option but more manageable and still quite effective.
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Situation 1.
Player knows what he is going to do and pre-rolls attacks and damage rolls.
During his turn, he moves summons and reads results to GM, who tells him whether or not his attacks hit
VS
Situation 2
Player summons random monster and says "ATTACKS MY MINIONS!"
GM looks up creatures, adds feat bonuses, rolls attacks, rolls damage rolls.
Player interjects saying that his summons would be flanking that creature.
GM and player argue or 30 minutes as to whether or not that is true.
Player then wants his summons to use SLAs.
GM and Player argue for another 30 minutes over how that will work out.
GM then spends 5 minutes trying to get everyone else to stop playing Angry Birds on their phones.
As BOTH OF YOU AGREE, if the summoner can communicate with the creatures, they will do what he wants. Communication is not a particularly difficult roadblock.
Another point in favour of less monsters. Communication is really difficult with a large bunch of int 4 elementals. It is very improbable that you will be able to issue specific commands for each one. You will make general 6 seconds statements and they will obey as well as they can, but don't expect a lot of finesse or tactics.
I usually correct the too tactical decisions of the summoner for his low level intelligence critters.
Edit: Sorry. Whatever James Maissen said while I was typing.
Eh, I expect more finesse out of 4int monsters than most people I guess. After all IRL animals with in game stats of 1 and 2 can coordinate perfectly fine even on the fly. A monster of 4 int is twice as smart, knows its own abilities, can receive more complex commands than dogs, and can make "fill in the blank" tactical decisions just fine. Now a mindless zombie, skeleton, or vermin would be a no go for tactical finesse and optimal use of abilities. But that isn't what is being discussed.
Just a few overlooked things to consider to help with mass-summon abuse:
Not under summon monster but in the previous chapter with general notes about spells (my italics for highlighting purposes)
Conjuration... A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Admittedly subject to interpretation in the case of flying creatures, especially air elementals. But this seems to forbid the summoning of creatures into a starting position of "in the air" which would nerf the tactic of stacking them right off the hop. Still manageable with some command actions. Summon monster has the grace to allow that the creatures will fight to the best of their abilities. I don't see a problem with letting flying creatures, even "dumb" 4 Int creatures, naturally resorting to 3-d tactics like stacking (not more than 1 per 5'cube though) to surround a foe from above and below as well, for a maximum of 8 around, 9 below and 9 above (all the adjacent cubes). Provided their flying ability allows such precise hovering.
Summoning... A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.
I'm not familiar if this is addressed elsewhere. But as a rule-based nerf, you could limit future summonings of the same creature based on the outcome of previous encounters. So if your PC previously summoned 5 small earth elementals and 3 were killed/dropped below 0 hp, you could say that only 2 are available for future summons of small earth elementals that day.
Also note that if your PC summons spell-casting minions, the minions' spells end when they do, regardless of standard spell duration. So that limits summoned buff abuse.Protection from Evil (Evil, not other alignments)
This spell wards a creature from attacks from evil (duh) creatures, from mental control, and from summoned creatures.
I checked protection from good, chaos and law as well. Those spells specifically stipulate that they protect from good, chaotic and lawful summoned monsters. But protection from evil? Any summoned monster. So that's the one to get for your smart NPCs.
Hope that helps rather than confounds. Good on you for not wanting to punish your player at this junction with a mandatory class shift. Good luck!
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I haven't discussed any concerns with the player in question, partly because I wasn't sure that whether this was all in my head or not.
If it is important enough for you to come and discuss it on the boards, it should be enough for you to discuss it with the player ;-)
On the "How to hate him less", you could consider that it could be even worse if he had optimized his character more :-))
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The question not answered is do you trust him to pre-roll the attack rolls? If so that will cut a lot of your time down. If not have him roll damage dice at same time he rolls attack rolls. That will cut the rolls in half.
The other suggestion that I have heard and use for my summoner is having cards of what I plan on summoning ready for the game. If he is not willing to do a little prep, Then he is not ready to play that character.
If you can't trust him to pre-roll attack rolls, then he shouldn't be in your group, much less playing a master summoner.
Who the hell cheats at D&D/PF? It's not like you can win.
@Uri Meca: I think we have different versions of the book. My book clearly says "Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect."
/me looks. /me sighs at self.
Heh, I first checked which printing I had. 3rd. I can't possibly be that wrong, can I? Then I looked at the spell more closely. Go figure, there's more info when I actually turned the page. Right you are. Huh, I don't think we ever played it that way. That will be a nasty surprise come the next non-evil summoned opponent. Thanks for pointing that out. And here I thought I was being thorough with that longish post.