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Hey Jolly, wanted your input on my Alchemist, as I'm pretty proud of him, and like to show him off to other people that love Alchemist.
We're currently playing Rise of the Runelords, and I'm playing a sandpoint native that went to school and learned medicine, but came home to a city of "we don't need medicine, we'll just go get healing from the temple) so I'm adventuring to earn money, and protect the town I love.Dr. Zandu Vioric
Class: Alchemist (Crypt Breaker/Chirugeon) 10
Race: Human
Feats: Cosmopolitan, Skill Focus(Craft: Alchemy), Extra Discovery (2), Craft Wand (we went with James Jacobs giving the okay for it in one of the random dev threads,) LeadershipDiscoveries: Precise Bomb, Healing Bomb, Spontaneous Healing, Healing Touch, Fast Bomb, Infusion, and 1 more (we just hit 10, trying to pick a discovery.)
Items of Note: Preserving Flask (1st)(x2)(Need to get some higher level ones, these are holdovers from the end of book 1), Headband of Int +2 (sense motive is linked skill), Lenses of Detection (love the UE update to make the glasses), Ring of Maniacal Devices (I'm the parties trap guy).
I originally was going to be building myself as the party off healer and support damage, but our 5th man, who was playing a Life Oracle bailed, and I had to take over as primary heals.
As I just got it (from chirugeon) I'm planning on utilizing Breath of Life heavily (as it's a 4th level slot) as well as making a wand of it for emergency purposes.
What do you think in general? Any questions/tips/advice/comments?
Jeez, sorry I never got back to this. I've been making my own Homebrew/3PP stuff.
Cryptbreaker/Chirugeon is one interesting mix, I'm actually interest to know how this works out.
This build is pretty unique to the point where it's hard to give commentary, although I haven't played since healing bomb was made, so it's difficult for me to comment on that too.
Is Cosmopolitan working out for you? I'd honestly drop it for...
As far as "how" it's working out, the only thing I'm lacking in, that I miss, is poison immunity, but I'll deal.
As far as the Cosmopolitan goes, I actually prefer it over extra traits; It allows me to choose two skills, and two languages, as well as leaving extra traits open if I wanted something like Acrobatics or Stealth, or something else. I'm also the Language monkey of the party, so I try to keep up with that.
Healing bomb has proven useful in a pinch, as before I got it, getting to downed allies to heal them was a challenge.
I'd agree with the craft wand sentiment, as it's only been used a couple of times, but as I get Breath of Life as a 4th level extract, the only way my GM is allowing me to get a wand of it is to craft it myself (which I completely agree with.) So at least for now, I'm probably going to hold onto the craft wand feat until I see a better use for it. Also, the rest of my party is sharing the crafting feat load, so I figured I'd do my part.
Finally to Tumor Familiar. I'd love to take this, but honestly it's in my personal list of "restricted" discoveries for this character. He's played off as a "medical doctor" and for the character mentality, the Tumor Familiar is something that he feels would be a dangerous avenue to travel down, and it's relatively obvious too, as he's wanting to garner respect in town and promote people trusting him, he's trying his best not to creep out or disgust people.
Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it! I am running out of my planned discoveries, so I may amend my "no tumor familiar" rule eventually, at least until 16th level, when I get elixir of life. Though I'm also planning on moving down the clone discovery path.
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Nice guide.
I thought I'd throw this build out there just because it has been so damn fun...and the mini I altered is too cool.
"Monster" build
Hungerseed Tiefling
Fighter 1 / Alchemist 6+ (Grenadier)
Strength 18
Dexterity 15
Constitution 16
Intelligence 13
Wisdom 9
Charisma 5
Traits:
Reincarnated (roleplay motivated)
Fighter of the Society
Fiendish Resilience
Maw
Prehensile tail
Feats:
1. Exotic Weapon: Dwarven Chain Flail
1. Armor of the Pit
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Power Attack
7. (not sure yet)
Discoveries; Extra Arm, Extra Arm, Wings
Although he can't be enlarged, he really hasn't missed it. With the extra 2 natural armor and a +2 shield, his AC is already 6 over your regular 2 handed fighter type. The DD is used generally from reach but can be adjusted for close. The bite has decent damage for those casters that try and step up. Mutagen is now lasting most of the time and although redundant with the armor of the pit, it's always there.
I expect to have mithril full plate at lvl 8 so with +1 magic, that's a walking around AC of 30+. I've use the Alchemical Allocation to excess (spirit sight was amazing). Bombs come in handy if I want to hold a position and not move while still being active. For a little extra, I toss in some acid or fire on the weapon. And the extra arm and prehensile tail stops any of the "drawing, wielding, rules non sense".
I'll have to see how this performs at higher levels, but so far, it has been brutal. Only one bad event where a certain invisible flying boss from another planet grappled me, did charisma damage and took me out in 1.5 rounds...but the team saved my ass.
I made a thread about Healing spells that stumbled upon a Trick that might worth noting.
Please disregard all the math in that post since that was me slipping into 2 AM slow shift crazy talk, but I'm curious if you can find a flaw in the "pacemaker" idea.
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So. Prestige Classes. There's one other the guide doesn't mention, which is *really* worth looking at. Hell, it's almost a no-brainer.
You give up one level of extract/bomb/everything else progression. So you still have 9 levels of progression of bomb damage (or sneak attack for vivisectionists! As written, it works for them too!), spell casting, discoveries, and all of the other class features. And it has the same BAB It's literally a one level dip that provides 10 levels of - kind of insane - benefits; let's run them down:
- +2 to AC
- +4 class skills, two of which, YOU CAN CHOOSE, and the other two of which, Knowledge Religion and Diplomacy, aren't awful.
- 6+Int Skill Points per level. So, y'know, 2 more skill points per level to use on your new class skills.
- +4 to Untrained Skill Checks. Because, y'know, Why Not?
- At 10th level, you can, for $Lvl Minutes/Day, get a +4 untyped bonus to any stat, and grow wings or gills or an extra natural attack; so, y'know, you can pick up that tail slam for your Feral Mutagen Hyde build that you've always wanted.
- Oh, and to top it all off, you get access to a trio of Divine Boons, courtesy of the Divine Obedience feat required to take the class. And some of them are pretty great. Hell, there's even one which allows you to add any poison you want to your bombs.
And to recap, the negatives here are:
- -1 Level of Alchemist Progression.
- Bad Fort Save for 10 levels. Works out as a net -2.
- One Feat prerequisite... but see above re: Obedience Feat.
- 10 levels of your favored class bonus. Probably a bit of a bummer for all the Half Orc and Tiefling alchemists out there using it for bomb damage, but not a huge deal for everybody else. You're essentially getting the skill point back anyway.
Basically - if you're willing to deal with the role-play requirement of being a devout...
It is a little limited for Potion Glutton alchemists though, so keep that in mind. Not sure what Urgathoa's boons are.
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awesome guide lol i played a Alchemist in a skulls and shackles game and it was just awsome :D the healing discoveries saved my butt time and time again, one time i got knocked right down to 0 hp and becuase of the healing was able to get back to 5 and just rip that boss a new one XD
hope they come out with more cool archtypes for alchemists soon lol
If one had an urge to go Hyde-style melee mutagen user, I'm thinking the Fighter archetype Mutation Warrior (ACG) would get you the proficiencies you'd want while not letting your mutagen lag behind, so it could be pretty dip-worthy. Any thoughts?
I'd been thinking more of greater and grand mutagen, for which it does look like the levels stack to determine access.
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Waiting on a clarification here, but the Medlance from the new Tech guide could be really good for Alchemists.
Consumable item, ten charges, any liquid placed inside can be administered as a move action. (Or as a standard action to a hostile target). Pretty awesome.
Is this on the SRD or Archives yet? If so, I'll give it a look.
And since it's finally out, as soon as I pick it up, I'll be working on my either Dangan Ronpa or Ace Attorney themed Inquisitor guide.
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Geez, looks like the ACG is up on the SRD too. Seems I've got a new guide to write, and probably with a theme no one will get (probably gonna go Dangan Ronpa, maybe Ace Attorney).
I'll be updating my guides soon, as well as with this, and maybe I'll look for other stuff too, at least on Thurs once I get my new router.
He's seeing it on d20pfsrd. It's still incomplete, as I see a few of the new classes are missing stuff that hasn't been put in. Shaman's remaining Spirits and archetypes, Warpriest archetypes, etc. It'll do till around late September/October. That's when I believe Paizo would add the book to the PRD, probably when Archives of Nethys will have listings of what in the book is legal for PFS as well.
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Yeah, I just noticed some traces here and there.
It's a bit frustrating. My friends ordered the hardcopy for my birthday, but it'll take a while to ship to the Netherlands. Now I've got a drawer full of PFS characters that I'm trying to keep just under 4XP, because I might want to use ACG archetypes on them.
Am I correctly reading that Grenadier and Inspired Chemist can be combined?
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Big change to the format of the guide, wanted to cut down on the page count a bit, so it's been spaced out a bit better. A lot of this was done because I know how to use google docs better, so all new guides should be using a similar format. Gradually starting work on the Investigator guide, but that'll be out soon enough.
Not sure if you saw them, but there were some great new things for Alchemists in Champions of Corruption. My favorite is Tainted Infusion.
Other disovories are listed on the same page, but nothing quite as noteworthy. I'm trying to figure out how to use a syringe spear type item and full attack with a tainted infusion if possible..
N. Jolly,
You did a great job with this guide. I personally am more curious about the alchemist than excited to play one, but you really covered the class thoroughly.
My favorite aspect was your astonishing consistency on ratings, with the (MB/MH) review in everything! While Treantmonk may have set a very high bar with tone and opinion in his Wizard guide, I think from an analysis perspective you covered the Alchemist better. (In fairness, alchemist may have 1/4 the options of a wizard...)
I'll be searching for more of your work.
Stay Awesome!
Ben
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N. Jolly,
You did a great job with this guide. I personally am more curious about the alchemist than excited to play one, but you really covered the class thoroughly.
My favorite aspect was your astonishing consistency on ratings, with the (MB/MH) review in everything! While Treantmonk may have set a very high bar with tone and opinion in his Wizard guide, I think from an analysis perspective you covered the Alchemist better. (In fairness, alchemist may have 1/4 the options of a wizard...)
I'll be searching for more of your work.
Stay Awesome!
Ben
Thanks so much man, that means a lot. Treantmonk is seriously an inspiration to me.
Actually did some work on the guide in a year, added new discoveries, new archetype, some new items, and a few other things.
Also looking for people to help me maintain the guide, as well as give input and such, so hit me up if anyone's interested in that.
Wanted to say thanks for the work you put into your guide. Also, I was working through a level 16 Vivisectionist build and noticed the feat Surprise Maneuver that may have some merit for a Vivisectionist. My build made use of Dirty Trick and this could be useful for that, though you're generally only going to get sneak attack dice after you've blinded something.
Something you might want to look into for your multiclass portion of the guide is the card caster magus archetype from the harrow handbook. It allows one to spellstrike with ranged weapons,EVEN splash weapons. And that could get some very interesting builds to be made. I think by RAW the splash damage would get the spell as well.
But its weird enough and niche that I completely understand not looking into it.
The Nodachi has the same damage and crit range of a Fauchard, but it's a martial weapon. Just sayin'.
Longarm Bracers are really good for Hyde (gives him more reach) for only 7,200 gp. And if you use it for your claws you don't take a penalty.
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Something you might want to look into for your multiclass portion of the guide is the card caster magus archetype from the harrow handbook. It allows one to spellstrike with ranged weapons,EVEN splash weapons. And that could get some very interesting builds to be made. I think by RAW the splash damage would get the spell as well.
But its weird enough and niche that I completely understand not looking into it.
Yeah, that's a little TOO niche for me, and the RAW is shaky on everything here. Although I'm suggesting Potion Glutton which is shaky RAW since for some reason PF keeps making fast drink abilities without realizing they have 'drink casters.'
The Nodachi has the same damage and crit range of a Fauchard, but it's a martial weapon. Just sayin'.
Being a martial weapon only matters for Grenadiers and dips, and the selling point of the Fauchard isn't just the crit range, but the fact that it's also a reach weapon, and reach is WAY better than brace.
What's with the confusion bomb rating? It seems pretty clear to me how it works.
Oh man, this ruling debacle was ugly when it first happened. It was a question of if Confusion Bomb had a save, and if so, did it count as attacking the target since it caused damage, which would force the confused target to attack the bomber, which really removes a lot of the benefit from Confusion Bomb. After the way it was ruled, it was deemed 'garbo' by the hero of the Alchemist, me. Especially with Madness Bomb, Confusion Bomb just isn't worth it.
Longarm Bracers are really good for Hyde (gives him more reach) for only 7,200 gp. And if you use it for your claws you don't take a penalty.
I really want to like these more, but I'd like to find out if these apply to all natural weapons (which seems to go against the name and flavor of the weapon) or just the claws. If it's just claws, these don't help enough since all the best Hydes have 3+ natural attacks. If it's all, it's slightly better, and may warrant an inclusion.
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Confusion bomb is still S tier, it just isn't super S tier because of dumb no save.
The save dc is pretty hard, also if you throw more than one bomb saving multiple times will also be super hard. If it sticks it is pretty brutal, as confusion is basically a save or die
It's not a save or die, and there's a handful of bombs I'd rather use than it. I really don't want to spend this entire reply talking about Void Bomb (although I could, and really want to), but there's still no definitive ruling on if the bomb is counted as damaging the target (I'd say no), which would ruin the discovery completely.
It's not really great for hit and run due to the duration (1 round a level? Really?), the save is the same save for anything so it's not super great (it's good, just not great, and it's a mind affecting effect at 8th level, which isn't the best place to be), and it drops damage.
Now when I complain about dropping damage, I mean it just hurts a bomber's bottom line, which is the line they like the most. It's also at the level where you'd be picking up Fast Bombs, so it's a 9th level discovery at best for that strategy.
I think as I looked back at this guide recently, I realized how few bombs you really get when you're busy just throwing out 2+ bombs a round, and how valuable debuffs that work on more than one type of target work.
I probably did review it in anger at the time, and it's probably not red, but it's definitely not S tier, which goes to things like Madness Bomb and VOID BOMB WHICH I LOVE A LOT OF A LOT AND SHOULDN'T BE DROW SPECIFIC BECAUSE WHY?!
So yeah, it's probably green, I'll look back over it and change it accordingly.
Longarm Bracers are really good for Hyde (gives him more reach) for only 7,200 gp. And if you use it for your claws you don't take a penalty.I really want to like these more, but I'd like to find out if these apply to all natural weapons (which seems to go against the name and flavor of the weapon) or just the claws. If it's just claws, these don't help enough since all the...
I would rather recommend Long Arm. I've been using that with a natural attack focused Investigator to good effect. Though you only have reach with the claws, it'a still a tremendous tactical advantage and in comparison with using I weapon I find that I prefer having two slightly weaker reach attacks than one stronger in most cases. It's just more flexible.
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I would rather recommend Long Arm. I've been using that with a natural attack focused Investigator to good effect. Though you only have reach with the claws, it'a still a tremendous tactical advantage and in comparison with using I weapon I find that I prefer having two slightly weaker reach attacks than one stronger in most cases. It's just more flexible.
I guess I'm just not sold on them, like it gives you some extra reach for a round, but if you're full attacking with 3+ natural weapons, this is cutting down your natural attack routine, and I don't like the swift action cost, since the Alchemist can do other things with their swift actions. I probably will add it later though, since the arm slot is really lacking in anything if you're not bowing it up.
On another note, Familiar Folio stuff has been added to the guide, Mauler is crazy, as is other fun stuff in there. It's even easier to make yourself an army than ever!
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I've been giving my strength-based investigator a spin in PFS, and it's working pretty well so far. Strength 16, Dex 14, Combat Reflexes and a longspear work out quite well. I'm wearing a cestus for when the longspear is too long; that way I don't have to drop it. And a sap in case we need to capture-'n-interrogate.
So far I've only played him at level 2-3, and barely used any buffs. Combat Reflexes with a spear means you're usually at the front of the group, hitting or tripping enemies that think they can just walk into melee while you're flat-footed. Seriously, Combat Reflexes is awesome.
I was dreading the play until I got Studied Combat, but so far it's been just fine. I've got lots of skill points and I've got more buffs than time (or need) to apply them.
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Hmm. Wrong N. Jolly topic. 2 minutes too late to fix. *grumble*.
It amuses me that this can be an issue.
I see you have the grenadiers level 2 power as purple. Help me know why please! I find so many alchemical objects just have so low saves that they are useless. Tell me what i'm missing!
[Puts on fancy judgmental hat]
Well...if you'd read the guide...
[Takes off fancy judgmental hat]
Most of the stuff that's good plays the caster game of 'no save, just suck'. This can take a few forms, from being able to pile on some extra damage with alchemist fire, acid, burst jar, and shard gel to actually incapacitating opponents with ghast retch flask and tanglefoot/burn bags. What you're looking for are those few magical alchemical items that don't have saves, that always get an effect, and always add to damage.
That's what makes grenadier turn from a solid green into a dynamite purple, at least in my opinion. It gets worse if you decide to combo it with explosive missile (adding any of the great debuff bombs) and tangleshot arrows on larger or smaller opponents, thus already getting the entangle off as well as still hitting at touch.
It's really how everything comes together that makes this a great ability.
Hmm. Wrong N. Jolly topic. 2 minutes too late to fix. *grumble*.It amuses me that this can be an issue.
I see you have the grenadiers level 2 power as purple. Help me know why please! I find so many alchemical objects just have so low saves that they are useless. Tell me what i'm missing!
[Puts on fancy judgmental hat]
Well...if you'd read the guide...
[Takes off fancy judgmental hat]
Most of the stuff that's good plays the caster game of 'no save, just suck'. This can take a few forms, from being able to pile on some extra damage with alchemist fire, acid, burst jar, and shard gel to actually incapacitating opponents with ghast retch flask and tanglefoot/burn bags. What you're looking for are those few magical alchemical items that don't have saves, that always get an effect, and always add to damage.
That's what makes grenadier turn from a solid green into a dynamite purple, at least in my opinion. It gets worse if you decide to combo it with explosive missile (adding any of the great debuff bombs) and tangleshot arrows on larger or smaller opponents, thus already getting the entangle off as well as still hitting at touch.
It's really how everything comes together that makes this a great ability.
Asking this as I am building an Elven Mad Bomber, but does that mean you wouldn't recommend taking Grenadier and Exploisive Missile together? Just asking because I'm having trouble fitting in discoveries.
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Asking this as I am building an Elven Mad Bomber, but does that mean you wouldn't recommend taking Grenadier and Exploisive Missile together? Just asking because I'm having trouble fitting in discoveries.
I would still recommend taking at least Grenadier, since your bombs qualify as weapons, thus allowing you to pull off a lot of the same tricks mentioned above, although no tangleshot arrows. The thing is Grenadier is the best go to archetype for bombers, full stop. This is especially true with getting a discovery for free that you'd normally take anyways, as well as your mixing prowess.
Being able to sing a different alchemical item (tf bag, gr flask, b jar) into each bomb is just icing on the cake, but Explosive Missile isn't needed, as it's more a ranged debuffing tool (or to add damage with a regular/raining arrow), and if you think you'll be in close, you can easily skip out on it.
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Cohorts & Companions gives us Spell Knowledge discovery. It's pretty weak by itself but if I'm not mistaken it allows Alchemist to take Arcane Strike and item creation feats right?
This falls into things I want to like, but I'm still burned on how they treated SLAs, so personally I'd say it doesn't just because of the last ruling on things.
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Ha, just wanted to bump this to state that this is now officially the first actual guide in the google search "Pathfinder Guide", with the second being Treantmonk's wizard guide (a huge favorite of mine), as well as (finally) being the first search result for N. Jolly.
I wanted to thank everyone who's supported this guide in one way or another, this is probably my favorite guide I've ever done, and I couldn't have done it without people who were willing to help make this the best guide possible. I really do enjoy this community, and I hope to keep being a part of it for some time to come.
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Huh, not the top result anymore, that's a damn shame. Whatever, guide has been updated for OA with Promethean Discipline and Promethean Alchemist both reviewed, and PA would probably score higher if the Homunculist didn't exist. But it does, making all the things that PA loses a lot more harsh in retrospect, especially the inability to ever take mutagen, which takes a lot of offense off the table.
I think you can take Visionary Researcher for PA for a form of Mutagen
Also not seeing the PA in the list for Archetypes is it on a later page?