Chasing the Philosopher's Stone: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Alchemist


Advice

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Grand Lodge

On boro vs preserver.. I'm in the middle

Preserver is actually a bit /more/ flexible. You could give it to an ally (Infusion?), keep it yourself or various other things.. Basically you can prepare during an off day, or just before you go to sleep, spend the last few minutes before bed filling up preserver flasks.

Boro on the other hand, can only recharge one you already used. So it becomes a little less flexible as you can't exactly pull out a spell that is very situational. Preserver you can. However, you can make sure to get back must have ones pretty easily..

Which makes me think, there is another type of alchemist, I call him the Pocket Monster Keeper. Ironically, called the Preservationist

You get Summon Nature's Ally 1,2,4,5,7,9
And with a feat you get summon monster 1,2,4,5,7,9

So you could get Moonlight Summons and Starlight Summons.. and a few more summon feats and the like.

The Exchange

Espy Kismet wrote:


You get Summon Nature's Ally 1,2,4,5,7,9
And with a feat you get summon monster 1,2,4,5,7,9

So you could get Moonlight Summons and Starlight Summons.. and a few more summon feats and the like.

What is the feat that gives you summon monster?

Can an Alchemist take Spell Focus Conjuration and work up the summoning chains?

Do metamagic feats work with extracts?

What other good summoning feats or items could be used to combine with this? I think the admixture vial would be cool to double summons up to 3rd level. I do think one of the best parts is that with infusion, you can give it to all of your allies.

Grand Lodge

Planar Preservationist

And yes, even a fighter could take spell focus.

You might want to take a race that has a R-SLA though, as one of them (Summon feats) does require that you have a caster level.

Grand Lodge

I don't think metamagic works.

But Adamixture + Preservation flasks = Lots of fun I think.

Edit:

Yep, Combine Extracts + Preservation Flasks = Lots of fun.

Simply use an admixture vial at first then put in the preservation flask, or wait till level 8 and get the discovery.

Note that it is 2 higher than the highest level. So the highest you can make like this is level 4x4, unless you can find a way to lower the level.

I don't quite suggest using the bottled ooze for this one though.. Certainly not in your expensive magical items.

For things to mix with it..

Bramble Brewer
Vivisectionist
Reanimator
Sabator

Out of those, you could easily do Bramble, Vivi and Preservationist, or Sabator, Vivi and Preservationist.

As a Sabby, you do need to spend at least 2 feats to get stealth to the point you need it to be, and gnomes do have SLA.

So you could use an admixture vial, combine 2 Summon monster 2s together, summoning a small army of critters. 2d3+2 of summon monster 1 critters.

Silver Crusade

Now I'm on the other side, enjoying the P. Flask more. Maybe I'll alter my opinions later on the guide.

As for the Pokemist, he really could have his own mini guide, but making a fourth section for him would be far too arduous. I might include him as a sub role, since I think he'd be good as either Hyde or Bomber, but even with how amazing summoning is, I don't see it as an Alchemist main role.

Still dragging my feet on doing sample builds, the first one's probably going to be B. Hyde (Beast/Vivi), might do one for C. Hyde as well, since thanks to the Kursarigama I have an idea in my head for it.

Grand Lodge

It could easily be supplemental to C. Hyde or bomber as it gives nothing up really needed to do those two, and with Preservation flasks, could work really well with them, by setting up the Pokextracts on off days or before bed.


N. Jolly wrote:
Two-Handed Thrower (Mad Bomber/Mr. Hyde) While your bomber will need quick draw to make the best of this, this is an INCREDIBLE way to increase your damage, as well as giving your mutagen some value. Even at the bare minimum it takes to use this, you'll be adding +3 damage per bomb, and with mutagen, that's going up to +6. Even C. Hyde only throwing one bomb a round is decent with this (although he should be taking Fast Bombs like everyone else.)

You're telling me you think bombs (and other splash weapons) should be getting str bonus to damage? Don't you think that's ridiculous? Personal opinions aside, the rules state that splash weapons are an exception to the rule that thrown weapons get str damage bonus.

N. Jolly wrote:
Master Alchemist (Mad Bomber/Mr. Hyde) It feels weird to rank this so low, but the benefit here is the increased crafting speed. A skill bonus with this is pretty nice, but hard to validate a feat on.

I disagree with ranking it orange. This increases the speed of poison crafting by a factor of about 40-80+ times depending on your intelligence. It also obviously increases regular alchemical crafting by a factor of 10 times too, which is extremely useful. Your character becomes the handyman that can craft a wide variety of remedies/tools while adventuring at a really cheap cost, and in potentially extremely fast times from minutes to a day, saving the party days/hours of work and/or tribulation. The one issue I have with the feat is it's 5-rank prerequisite. In my opinion it should be just a 1 or 3 rank prerequisite.

I also think splash weapon mastery should probably be blue for general, and purple for mad bomber. While the ±1 to misdirection can literally save the lives of party members and npcs (at least when you don't have explosive bomb) that's not the reason. The +1 square taking splash is the reason. Hitting an extra target is really huge, especially with explosive bomb where your radius is even larger. It's a typical +5 to +16 or more damage dealing overall per bomb due to hitting an extra target. You might not always hit an extra target, but more often than not, monsters aren't clustered optimally, and that 1 extra square really does make all the difference (as long as you remember about it)

The Todd wrote:
as soon as I get a sipping shirt it'll be double INT from Admixture as a swift

Admixtures can't be made into potions, so no that won't work. At least not unless you have the infusion discovery and the GM is house ruling that infusions can be used in the sipping jacket. In my opinion that seems overpowered though. The fact that the potion costs money an lasts for only 24 hours (potentially wasting money if not used) is a big factor that makes the jacket balanced.

The Todd wrote:

Nice combo here for a single round of buffing.

Requirements:

3 Melee Attacks
4 Preserving Flasks
Admixture Vials or a single vial and multiple days to prep
Touch Injection Extract
Poisoner's Gloves
Sipping Jacket
Accelerated Drinker Trait

Poisoner's gloves and Touch Injection Extract allow you to deliver Infusions via touch to either yourself, or another party member. They can be filled one/day.

Sipping Jacket allows Infusion usage on yourself as a swift and can also be filled 1/day.

Combine these and fill them with Preserving Flasks filled with Infusions combined via Admixture Vials.

The result is 1 round of significant buffing for you or a teammate. The caveats are the extracts in the flask need to be of the same level, the Admixture vial requires 3rd level or lower, and the sipping jacket further requires either Instantaneous or Round based duration.

Poisoner's gloves = 4 Buffs transferable to an ally or yourself via melee
Touch Injection Extract = 2 Buffs Transferable to an ally or yourself via melee
Sipping Jacket = 2 Buffs Transferable to yourself via swift
Accelerated Drinker allows potion to be drank via move action.

This is to say that you can't just free action touch yourself instead of making attacks and then use your standard to throw a bomb. I would feel guilty for doing that though.

Can you explain yourself better? I don't really understand what you're saying. You also forgot to include the infusion discovery as a requirement.

The Todd wrote:


@ N. Jolly: I saw you think the boro beads might be a little better than that preserving flasks. I think I'm on the other side of that. I like the flasks. You asked for my build earlier but I don't really have one. Snoodle is a 4th level PFS Gnome Grenadier that I thought was going to be an AOE Bomber but I'm kind of taking the buffing tract, even though its expensive. I'm kind of just making it up along the way and having a ton of fun too. I think the admixture vial preserving flask combo is awesome. So lemme know what you think and as always, lemme know if you also think the combo works or can make it any better.

Why do you like preserving flasks better? The huge downside with preserving flasks is that they give you no bonus spells at all for consecutive adventuring days after the first. You need resting days in order to refill preserving flasks.

Boro beads function every day, and only "downside" is that you can't cast a spell you haven't already casted before with it, which is hardly a downside considering the fact that nearly everyone has got-to spells they will always use more than once (when using all their spell slots in the day), such as alchemical allocation or shield.

Espy Kismet wrote:

But Adamixture + Preservation flasks = Lots of fun I think.

Edit: Yep, Combine Extracts + Preservation Flasks = Lots of fun.

Simply use an admixture vial at first then put in the preservation flask, or wait till level 8 and get the discovery.

Why a preserving flask?

Are you implying that you could buy and use a preserving flask for a higher level than you could cast? that seems to go against the rules. I'm presuming you know that too, but I don't know what else makes it advantageous.

Otherwise, I'm still clueless what preservation flask has to do with the combo, compared to in regular extract slots or one that would use boro beads.

Silver Crusade

Joesi wrote:
You're telling me you think bombs (and other splash weapons) should be getting str bonus to damage? Don't you think that's ridiculous? Personal opinions aside, the rules state that splash weapons are an exception to the rule that thrown weapons get str damage bonus.

I think the idea of throwing most weapons 2 handed seems ridiculous, but looking over the text of the feat again, I'm realizing splash weapons don't qualify for it, since they're not one or two handed weapons, so any reference to it has been removed from the guide since it's otherwise not useful. Thanks for the catch!

Joesi wrote:
I disagree with ranking it orange. This increases the speed of poison crafting by a factor of about 40-80+ times depending on your intelligence. It also obviously increases regular alchemical crafting by a factor of 10 times too, which is extremely useful. Your character becomes the handyman that can craft a wide variety of remedies/tools while adventuring at a really cheap cost, and in potentially extremely fast times from minutes to a day, saving the party days/hours of work and/or tribulation. The one issue I have with the feat is it's 5-rank prerequisite. In my opinion it should be just a 1 or 3 rank prerequisite.

For this one, alchemical items don't stay useful nearly as long as I'd like them to, which equates this one's lower rating. While I really do love the speedy creation, not much of this really survives long into the mid game unless you're a Grenadier. It saddens me how quickly these items go out of style, but if you're using this to sell things, it'd be PURPLE.

Joesi wrote:
I also think splash weapon mastery should probably be blue for general, and purple for mad bomber. While the ±1 to misdirection can literally save the lives of party members and npcs (at least when you don't have explosive bomb) that's not the reason. The +1 square taking splash is the reason. Hitting an extra target is really huge, especially with explosive bomb where your radius is even larger. It's a typical +5 to +16 or more damage dealing overall per bomb due to hitting an extra target. You might not always hit an extra target, but more often than not, monsters aren't clustered optimally, and that 1 extra square really does make all the difference (as long as you remember about it)

Are people missing more often than I am? I can't rate this higher, as it's a touch attack with what should be a good stat for a character. Alchemist have a decent range with their bombs too, so I can't see it being a huge difference until you start chucking fast bombs with your iteratives. Even though it limits the randomization on your bomb targets, it doesn't do enough for me to want to rate it higher, it'd have to let you pick the miss square for it to be better to me.

Grand Lodge

Joesi wrote:


N. Jolly wrote:
Master Alchemist (Mad Bomber/Mr. Hyde) It feels weird to rank this so low, but the benefit here is the increased crafting speed. A skill bonus with this is pretty nice, but hard to validate a feat on.

I disagree with ranking it orange. This increases the speed of poison crafting by a factor of about 40-80+ times depending on your intelligence. It also obviously increases regular alchemical crafting by a factor of 10 times too, which is extremely useful. Your character becomes the handyman that can craft a wide variety of remedies/tools while adventuring at a really cheap cost, and in potentially extremely fast times from minutes to a day, saving the party days/hours of work and/or tribulation. The one issue I have with the feat is it's 5-rank prerequisite. In my opinion it should be just a 1 or 3 rank prerequisite.

Master Alchemist -

1) Poison is pretty weak. It goes off fort saves, which is one of the highest saves in the game overall. Its often something that everything is immune to as well.

Quote:


Why do you like preserving flasks better? The huge downside with preserving flasks is that they give you no bonus spells at all for consecutive adventuring days after the first. You need resting days in order to refill preserving flasks.
Boro beads function every day, and only "downside" is that you can't cast a spell you haven't already casted before with it, which is hardly a downside considering the fact that nearly everyone has got-to spells they will always use more than once (when using all their spell slots in the day), such as alchemical allocation or shield.

Okay, you are making a rather BIG assumption there. The first assumption is that a few consecutive days of adventuring = use every single extract you have.

You might have some you use a lot. Put those in a preservation flask. Don't use it today? Well have it for tomorrow. And if you used it tomorrow, then refill the flask. It only takes a minute to prepare an extract.

Have slots left over from the day of adventuring? Prepare them in preservation flasks, and use them tomorrow.

Got a Boro bead you didn't use that day? Activate it, and prepare the extract in a preservation flask.

Earlier you were saying how wonderful the Master Alchemist feat is because you can make stuff. a PF is basically a reusable potion. You don't use your potions all the time do you? No. that would be dumb. They're freaking expensive. But this does let you have them, without the continued cost, at a higher and higher CL

A first level potion is 50 gp. Now take that and times that by a 10th level caster.. 500gp. So basically, after /2/ uses of the PF from your 10th level alchemist, you've used the cost of the PF. Any time you prepare another extract in there, its just gravy. And you can give those to your friends if you have infusion. You know, as Just incase we get separated thing?

Speaking of which, if you did get separated.. Like they died or something and your extract in a normal flask was with them.. you could be out of a slot.. forever. A PF however, you do not lose that slot. You lose a bit of money, not class abilities.

Quote:

Why a preserving flask?

Are you implying that you could buy and use a preserving flask for a higher level than you could cast? that seems to go against the rules. I'm presuming you know that too, but I don't know what else makes it advantageous.

Otherwise, I'm still clueless what preservation flask has to do with the combo, compared to in regular extract slots or one that would use boro beads.

Nothing says you can't buy one/find one before your time. Wizards often find scrolls they can't cast yet.

Now here is the trick..

Preservation flasks hold any extract prepared in them. With combine extracts, you can prepare 2 extracts as one. So you prepare it in a preservation flask.

A level 3 PF gives you 2 extra first level slots in a sense, with a single standard action to use both of them at the same time.

That is why they are superior to Boro beads. There is a lot more flexibility to them, but that should not dismay you from getting a boro bead either. With both of them together, you can vastly expand your ability to use your extracts. Preserving useful, but situational ones in your PF, or last minute extracts to use in next few days.


Oh man! Damn these stupid forums. It seems as though I lost all the information in my edit without warning because I decided to edit a post near the end of the time limit to edit, and ended up completing the edit after that timeframe elapsed. Lost a huge load of stuff.

Anyway...

N. Jolly wrote:


8th Delayed Bomb (Mad Bomber/Mr. Hyde) I almost feel bad grading this one, as it feels like something that you could really be creative with. The openness to abuse is what makes this green, although by itself it doesn't really do a lot.

Ugh, where to begin? I don't know why this game was added to the game in it's current state. Can you please tell me how you think it's useful? It looks completely impractical/useless to me.

If I made this skill, I would change/add 4 big things:
- No level requirement
- Longer time limit (duration in hours or minutes instead if desired instead of rounds)
- Can be thrown (without breaking)
- Will stick to objects/creatures without having to apply glue to it
As-is, it's a junky unstackable (the one thing I wouldn't change) short-duration/delay bomb which cannot be thrown! What is the point of this compared to just adding a fuse to an alchemical explosive or fuse grenade?
Deserves red all across the board unless I'm missing something.

Sticky Poison should have the same rank as poison conversion in my opinion. While you can get reasonable DCs by stacking inhaled poison, it will also cost a fair bit. Spending 125g/375g for a DC 21 Drow poison is bound to cut on your wealth if you make significant use of this discovery/poison. Sticky poison allows you to use poisons which while typically having low DC, cost mere pennies. Some of these low DC poisons will only cost like 2-8g per use to use, so it's OK to use frequently. You can also use poisons with higher DCs for a good price too, such as 40 gp per dose for DC 18 [delayed] blind, or 87 gp per dose for DC 22 [delayed] 1d4r paralysis.
Lastly, it synergizes well with poison conversion. You could convert a bloodwine and use it with sticky poison resulting in a DC 25 sickened (and wis damage later) at the cost of only a meager 6 gold!

Immolation bomb is indeed kinda crappy in practicality (despite seemingly good in theory), but it can still be good depending a bit on how a GM rules some of it's specific mechanics in certain situations (like Precise bombs, splash weapon mastery, targets moving through the AoE). I still think it should be ranked orange though, because occasionally that extra damage-efficiency/DPS can be quite useful. Particularly, the main reason is that it has great synergy with Targetted bomb admixture, to which you can deal seriously massive damage with.

Wings seem at least orange-worthy to me. A potion of fly can be used with alchemical allocation instead of having to use the level 3 fly spell, but still, this allows for multiple uses per day of a very good spell without any slot usage.

Spontaneous healing/Healing touch: really damn good in my opinion. It's 2.5 times the effect the toughness feat can give, since this is more or less increasing one's maximum health. Should be green for everyone, definitely not red for anyone.

Skinsend is fine at orange (mebbe green? due to utility if you ever encounter a bludgeon monster or poisonous/mind-affecting room), but you might want to mention it's synergy with spells like ablative barrier, false life, and spontaneous healing/healing-touch. The healing from those two add HUGE survivability to skinsend, especially with ablative barrier. One only really has to worry about 1-hit wonders killing the person, which a GM would be damn mean to include. Note the immunity to mind-affecting (among many other things of course), this saves a person from having to invest so much in their will saves, or any save aside from reflex frankly. In my opinion this isn't a spell for Mr Hyde at all, not that it couldn't work (agile AoMF and ant haul or something).


Espy Kismet wrote:


Okay, you are making a rather BIG assumption there. The first assumption is that a few consecutive days of adventuring = use every single extract you have.

Have slots left over from the day of adventuring? Prepare them in preservation flasks, and use them tomorrow.

True, it has much to do with my personal experience of campaigns from a ruthless DM who will usually having us using all/most slots per day (also losing slots temporarily)

Quote:


Got a Boro bead you didn't use that day? Activate it, and prepare the extract in a preservation flask.

Yeah.... OR one could just have two boro beads and get the same sort of effect, so that's not particularly a valid argument. I could see variety helping though, getting a preserving flask after 2-3 boro beads (if you ever buy that many).

Quote:


A first level potion is 50 gp. Now take that and times that by a 10th level caster.. 500gp. So basically, after /2/ uses of the PF from your 10th level alchemist, you've used the cost of the PF. Any time you prepare another extract in there, its just gravy. And you can give those to your friends if you have infusion. You know, as Just incase we get separated thing?

Unless they have infusion (which I know many people think is awesome, it just might not suit certain characters, or some players just might not want it for variety's sake), it wouldn't be like a potion. While technically accurate, it's rather twisted to compare a 10th level extract to a potion, since potions are typically only made at the minimum level, since that's often the most efficient and/or all that's necessary. Alchemist's also brew potions, so that's 25g, not 50g. ANYWAY, you don't need to make this point to me, because I full-well know the value of an extra spell slot. I think boro beads are awesome, I just don't think as much for the PFs. They're still good, but in my opinion should be valued a bit less.

Quote:


Speaking of which, if you did get separated.. Like they died or something and your extract in a normal flask was with them.. you could be out of a slot.. forever. A PF however, you do not lose that slot. You lose a bit of money, not class abilities.

That's a separate issue, and —in my opinion— rules speculation. I'm pretty sure most GMs would allow alchemists to make-inert infusions that they didn't want anymore. Also, the cost of a slot is hardly any less that the cost of a preserving-flask/boro-bead anyway so it's not like you're even saving much.

Quote:


Preservation flasks hold any extract prepared in them. With combine extracts, you can prepare 2 extracts as one. So you prepare it in a preservation flask.

A level 3 PF gives you 2 extra first level slots in a sense, with a single standard action to use both of them at the same time.

That is why they are superior to Boro beads. There is a lot more flexibility to them, but that should not dismay you from getting a boro bead either. With both of them together, you can vastly expand your ability to use your extracts. Preserving useful, but situational ones in your PF, or last minute extracts to use in next few days.

You didn't answer my question directly, although you seemed to imply confirmation.

I'd assert that it's a misinterpretation of the rules of combine extract. A combined extract is not 2 low level extracts, it's one higher level extract that gives the effects of two lower ones. Because it's a level 3+ extract, you must be sufficient level before you could use it. Otherwise it's like saying one could cast spells of effective level higher than you can cast through metamagic. It's against the rules.

Grand Lodge

Quote:

Ugh, where to begin? I don't know why this game was added to the game in it's current state. Can you please tell me how you think it's useful? It looks completely impractical/useless to me.

If I made this skill, I would change/add 4 big things:
- No level requirement
- Longer time limit (duration in hours or minutes instead if desired instead of rounds)
- Can be thrown (without breaking)
- Will stick to objects/creatures without having to apply glue to it
As-is, it's a junky unstackable (the one thing I wouldn't change) short-duration/delay bomb which cannot be thrown! What is the point of this compared to just adding a fuse to an alchemical explosive or fuse grenade?
Deserves red all across the board unless I'm missing something.

Level Requirement - I do agree the level requirement is a bit.. junky. What they are obviously attempting to do is limit it, because it can cause multiple attacks in one round.

Longer time limit - A feat gives you minutes, and a remote detonation ability. Another feat makes it auto-detonate within 24 hours or you can have it permanently active. See Remote Bomb/Implant bomb. While your bomb damage does suffer as a re-animator.. You /could/ implant them into an army of zombies. However, Rounds works pretty nicely while in the heat of combat.

Can be thrown - Nothing says it can, or cannot be thrown. You have throw anything. The question is if it explodes or doesn't explode.. which since you used this discovery, I'd say you made it so it wasn't so explodable.

Can be glued - Again, nothing really states it can or cannot be. You have an alchemist crafting kit. How do you not have something sticky in there to a fix your delayed bomb to a wall is beyond me. Sticking it to a creature is rather.. bizarre, since a creature messing with it detonates it unless they make their disable device check.

How is it different from sticking a fuse to an alchemical explosive?

1) you can add in your bomb based discoveries to it.
2) it counts as a splash weapon
3) the guy in its square is auto hit.

Essentially think of it as the difference between a grenade launcher vs a land mine. This takes much more planning and thinking to use than the easy bombs you've been using already.

It is hard to use, but It can be used as a primer for bigger bombs, especially after remote is gotten.

If you wanna be angry at something, be angry at remote needing a DC 20+1 for every 10 feat, int check. Not a craft alchemy or disable device. INT CHECK. Thats dumb.

Silver Crusade

Joesi wrote:
Ugh, where to begin? I don't know why this game was added to the game in it's current state. Can you please tell me how you think it's useful? It looks completely impractical/useless to me.

I'll admit this one was getting rated while I was still learning a things, but it's the prereq to some rather fun feats and such, so while I'll agree it's not green, knocking it down to orange seemed fair. Were I to house rule it, it'd automatically have Remote Detonation without a feat.

Joesi wrote:

Sticky Poison should have the same rank as poison conversion in my opinion. While you can get reasonable DCs by stacking inhaled poison, it will also cost a fair bit. Spending 125g/375g for a DC 21 Drow poison is bound to cut on your wealth if you make significant use of this discovery/poison. Sticky poison allows you to use poisons which while typically having low DC, cost mere pennies. Some of these low DC poisons will only cost like 2-8g per use to use, so it's OK to use frequently. You can also use poisons with higher DCs for a good price too, such as 40 gp per dose for DC 18 [delayed] blind, or 87 gp per dose for DC 22 [delayed] 1d4r paralysis.

Lastly, it synergizes well with poison conversion. You could convert a bloodwine and use it with sticky poison resulting in a DC 25 sickened (and wis damage later) at the cost of only a meager 6 gold!

The biggest problem is that poisons age horribly. If they were a viable tactic post level 8 (I might check the bestiary statistics to find the exact level) it probably would be higher. The biggest problem with sticky poisons is the best way to use them is as you've stated, multiple applications, and the Alchemist can't get that many swings with the same weapon. Maybe a Hyde could put it on all his natural weapons, but that's again X times the cost equal to the amount of weapons he has (can you put it in your mouth?) Most combats don't last long enough for non instantaneous knock outs (Drow poison) to matter. I myself have only ever found great use of sticky poison for a Blinkback belt and poisoned daggers, since it'd allow you more uses of each poison.

Joesi wrote:
Immolation bomb is indeed kinda crappy in practicality (despite seemingly good in theory), but it can still be good depending a bit on how a GM rules some of it's specific mechanics in certain situations (like Precise bombs, splash weapon mastery, targets moving through the AoE). I still think it should be ranked orange though, because occasionally that extra damage-efficiency/DPS can be quite useful. Particularly, the main reason is that it has great synergy with Targetted bomb admixture, to which you can deal seriously massive damage with.

This is another one I'd like if Hit and Run tactics were a thing that most games made useful. It also gives the opponent a weapon in a sense to hit you with too unless you and those in your party are immune to the damage type (Not impossible, obviously but still another precaution you're needing to take.) Too much is GM fiat to make this worth taking unless you could manage a decent hit and run assault.

Joesi wrote:
Wings seem at least orange-worthy to me. A potion of fly can be used with alchemical allocation instead of having to use the level 3 fly spell, but still, this allows for multiple uses per day of a very good spell without any slot usage.

Now this goes into the "I don't like using class features on things I can buy" school of thought. I in my head can't validate using a discovery on this since I've got AA and a potion. This is a better option in a low magic game I'll give you, but that's not the default assumption of PF.

Joesi wrote:
Spontaneous healing/Healing touch: really damn good in my opinion. It's 2.5 times the effect the toughness feat can give, since this is more or less increasing one's maximum health. Should be green for everyone, definitely not red for anyone.

Okay this one I'll give you, I was probably a bit TOO critical of this one. It seems people are in more brutal games than mine, since survivability seems to be a large issue I'm seeing. Consider this one popped up to a green and orange respectively.

Joesi wrote:
Skinsend is fine at orange (mebbe green? due to utility if you ever encounter a bludgeon monster or poisonous/mind-affecting room), but you might want to mention it's synergy with spells like ablative barrier, false life, and spontaneous healing/healing-touch. The healing from those two add HUGE survivability to skinsend, especially with ablative barrier. One only really has to worry about 1-hit wonders killing the person, which a GM would be damn mean to include. Note the immunity to mind-affecting (among many other things of course), this saves a person from having to invest so much in their will saves, or any save aside from reflex frankly. In my opinion this isn't a spell for Mr Hyde at all, not that it couldn't work (agile AoMF and ant haul or something).

Skinsend is gross, no one should use it because it's gross. With that out of the way, it's the most dangerous scouting spell around. If I were going to be a scout, I'd probably just go HC Stealth and D. Presence instead of this creepy ability.

I'm actually glad for all your opinions, I haven't been getting a huge amount of feedback on the ratings and such, so it's good to get another person's input on this.

Grand Lodge

Joesi wrote:


Quote:


Got a Boro bead you didn't use that day? Activate it, and prepare the extract in a preservation flask.

Yeah.... OR you could just have two boro beads and get the same sort of effect. Not really a valid argument. I could see variety helping though, getting a preserving flask after 2-3 boro beads (if you ever buy that many).

Quote:


A first level potion is 50 gp. Now take that and times that by a 10th level caster.. 500gp. So basically, after /2/ uses of the PF from your 10th level alchemist, you've used the cost of the PF. Any time you prepare another extract in there, its just gravy. And you can give those to your friends if you have infusion. You know, as Just incase we get separated thing?

Unless you have infusion (which I know many people think is awesome, it might not suit certain characters, or some players just might not want it for variety's sake), it's not like a potion. While accurate, it's rather twisted to compare a 10th level extract, since potions are typically only made at the minimum level, since that's often the most efficient and/or all that's necessary. Alchemist's also brew potions, so that's 25g vs 1000g, not 500 vs 1000. ANYWAY, you don't need to make this point to me, because I full-well know the value of an extra spell slot. I think boro beads are awesome, I just don't think as much for PFs.

Yes, you could have had two boro beads. But if you are seriously using EVERYTHING up with no extra spell slots, every single day.. How in the bloody world is Master Alchemist useful? All those alchemical items you're making is just burning through your limited funds in the first place. But thats something else..

You could have had two boro beads not used. Then you have exactly the same amount of slots the next day. And then not use them again that day. And the next and the next and the next. Granted, you wouldn't be using the PF flasks at this time, but you would have been able to store those slots you're wasting.

Potions vs PF Extracts - Not twisted in the slightest. Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+CL (up to five) in hp. A Potion, if you have brew potion (Note grenadier doesn't) costs 25 gp. So a CLW potion at level 1 is 25, while a CLW potion at level 5 is 125 gp.

So, your alchemist that is so strapped for slots is now spending slots to craft potions and burning through funds pretty quickly. Not to mention the amount of time he's starting to spend. 2h per 250 or less, or if its 1k (Like a lesser restoration potion) you're now spending days.

You're getting your full caster level on PFs vs Potions, and you could prepare a whole slew of them in a single day.

Now you can say "But the Boro beads do too!" Boro beads are harder to pass around for people, not to mention they can only prepare what you've already made that day. While PFs could have extracts prepared for those 'oh shimmy!' moments where you need certain extracts that you didn't prepare that day cause their use is rather limited.

Also I had wrongly thought the Admixture vial did the mixing without using a higher level slot.

Even so, you can prepare things in preservation flasks with combined extract.

EDIT:

Basically its like this..

A PF is used for things that come up occasionally but not often enough to use them for a daily slot, to preserve left over slots, or act like super potions.
Ones to use this on.. Anticipate Peril
Comprehend Languages
Negate Aroma
Touch of the Sea
Acute Senses
Blood Transcription*
Darkvision
Resist energy
Spider Climb
Etc.

Boro is more of the extracts you constantly use on yourself, or party members. Over all, less flexible, but can be somewhat useful to keep things up that you need over and over again during the day.


N. Jolly wrote:
...

Yeah, definitely only the right kind character would be necessary to consider using Skinsend in the first place.

For sticky poison, durable arrows/bolts (Elves of Golarion) could be used to apply it, since they generally won't break. I guess one would still try to avoid using them in scenarios where they'd be (or could be) unrecoverable though.

N. Jolly wrote:
False Life, Greater (Mad Bomber/Mr. Hyde) I'd rather just prepare the lesser version twice.

I think it's pretty iffy or wrong to think that false life could stack with itself. Not to say it couldn't be allowed, but I think at least many (if no the majority) of DMs would probably not like it. I'm not really saying it should be ranked higher than red though (although I could see it as orange).

Oh I also remember a spell I commented on earlier in an edit that was deleted: Shield.

Shield is really damn good for a first level spell — both for Mr. Hyde and the mad bomber. Realize that by RAW it doesn't actually use up a hand slot to carry (although it may be debatable if that's RAI), so I don't see why it wouldn't be a go-to spell for all dicey encounters which allow for preparation. If the character/player also has infusion, it becomes even stronger, because they could then start handing out essentially potions of shield to their allies, which is normally impossible because it's a personal spell. This spell combined with infusion and a few boro beads (which individual party members may pay for themselves even) makes a party (or 'tank') pretty ridiculous early on (and even later on).

Espy Kismet wrote:
...And the next and the next and the next. Granted, you wouldn't be using the PF flasks at this time, but you would have been able to store those slots you're wasting.

No, I tried to imply/explain this earlier... you're not gaining an extra slot from a PF any more than you are from a boro bead. Boro beads give +1 slot every day no matter what. PFs only give bonus slots while filled, and can only be filled on days where at least one spell of that level was not used. It's an illusion that a PF is any more effective than a Boro bead (aside from it's distinct advantage that it can be used on a spell you haven't cast before, which is an advantage, but as I explained, pretty insignificant in my opinion and not worth the drawback).

Quote:
Potions vs PF Extracts - Not twisted in the slightest. Cure Light Wounds heals 1d8+CL (up to five) in hp. A Potion, if you have brew potion (Note grenadier doesn't) costs 25 gp. So a CLW potion at level 1 is 25, while a CLW potion at level 5 is 125 gp.

For potions, multiple level 1 potions are more effective than 1 higher level potion. If you wanted to heal lots of health with potion(s) you'd use multiple level 1 potions rather than a level 5 potion. It would be more than 25g though, you're right; since two lvl 1 potions would cost 50g to make, 3 would cost 75g, etc.. Like I said it is beside the point though, since I do agree that extra slots are great.

Quote:
Boro beads are harder to pass around for people

True enough, although you can only pass them around at all if you have infusion in the first place, not that infusion is in the least a bad discovery.

I think we're running in circles at this point. They do have advantages over each other, but my opinion is still the same (edit: with the exception of lvl 4/5/6 spells). Good to hear another opinion though.

Edit: ahhh wtf? Somehow my edit was deleted/ignored again and lost it.

Essentially what I was saying is that Alchemical allocation, or even just a normal non-AA potion could be used for those uncommon situations. However, that wouldn't work for spells 4th level and higher, so I would agree that PF would probably be necessary or at least more useful by level 10.

Grand Lodge

Potions vs PF

Right, you could. But you use multiple actions to do so, plus lots of cost from the potions. More cost effective to use a wand.

But its more effective to have effects like shield at the highest caster level you possibly can.

For example Touch of the Sea is minutes per level. Not very useful at level 1, and since AA is reliant on caster level of the potion consumed...

Expeditious Retreat - Personal, minutes per level. Not something I'd really put in a daily slot, but having the ability to spend a standard action to get +30 movement when needed, I find that to be useful.

Comprehend languages - Personal, 10 minutes per level. Again, not something to take up a slot, but quite useful when the situation arises you realize you don't understand words.

Anticipate Peril - Dependent on Caster level, Short Duration. Find yourself suddenly in a hive of scum and villainy? Pop this in.

Polypurpose Panacea - Personal - After you get to level 10 and are immune to poison, gotta use this to get drunk-ish! Very important for people who like to be drunk.

Identify - Personal again.. sort of or something. Not something I'd want to burn slots on, but well its quite useful to have an Identify extract or potion around. Lets you ID one item per level.

Jump - Mix this with Expeditious Retreat in a 3rd level preservation flask. If there is some way to reduce the Slot, that would be important here. This is dependent on caster level, and with a Jump/ER extract create.. that is a +30 to jumps and +30 movement speed for quite a few minutes. (Actually its a little more on jump checks since every 10 feet faster you move, you gain a bonus on jump check) You might ask yourself when would you ever need this? Well, perhaps someone is running away from you through a crowded street, or the dungeon you are in is starting to collapse and fall apart.

That is a very rough look at the first level extracts.. there is a few more in there, I'd totally get too. Things that are kinda out there and generally not needed for Boro beads.

The Exchange

@ Joesi: Good catch I missed Infusion ability and sorry for the confusing language. I'm a bit of a scatter brain.

I happen to like the Preserving Flasks a little more for two reasons. You should be able to use the Admixture Vial to double them up and in my PFS experience there is often downtime in between missions or days of travel to and from missions allowing you to prepare. There is time to plan infusion combos ahead of schedule.

Now after following the above discussion as best I can, it's easily stated that one should have both to maximize their versatility.

The combo consists of
Standard Action of Melee Attacks using each Poisoner's Gloves both filled with Admixtured Infusions filled from Preserving Flasks prepared from days previous and Touch Injection filled with another Admixtured Infusion from a Preserving Flasks.

Move action would be drinking a potion via the Accelerated Drinker trait.

Swift Action would be the Sipping Jacket filled with an Admixtured Infusion from a Preserving Flasks. This does run with the assumption of the Infusion acting as a potion in this instance.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Just to chime in

Strafe bomb at "orange" ? Well obviously someone hasn't used it for battlefield control, recently ?
Combine with "Smoke" or "Stink" Bomb, and create a visually impenetrable, possibly nauseating wall, save-less. It breaks line of sight, line of charge, gives the group a round to possibly buff up.... etc. While doing damage. Since there isn't a reflex save, only full cover will protect anyone "downblast" from the smoke/stink.
If taking the RAW literally, the smoke/stink-line would be 10' wide besides, usually filling up most corridors quite nicely.

All...at 4th level.

As for "Wings" : yeah, I am not overly enchanted either, but they are (Ex) in nature so using them to quickly flap off into a safe location while hurling bombs (without using up actions to "activate" them ) sounds pretty useful to me.
Same thing when falling or being dropped from great height. Flying straight up 30' usually takes the alchemist out of close combat quite nicely.Oh, and (Ex), hence no dispelling.
So, something better than "red" perhaps ? At least for the Bomber side of things.

Silver Crusade

Hey all, I'll be replying to stuff in a bit, just got back from Baltimore, so I'll be putting in more work as soon as I can.

Silver Crusade

vikingson wrote:

Just to chime in

Strafe bomb at "orange" ? Well obviously someone hasn't used it for battlefield control, recently ?
Combine with "Smoke" or "Stink" Bomb, and create a visually impenetrable, possibly nauseating wall, save-less. It breaks line of sight, line of charge, gives the group a round to possibly buff up.... etc. While doing damage. Since there isn't a reflex save, only full cover will protect anyone "downblast" from the smoke/stink.
If taking the RAW literally, the smoke/stink-line would be 10' wide besides, usually filling up most corridors quite nicely.

All...at 4th level.

As for "Wings" : yeah, I am not overly enchanted either, but they are (Ex) in nature so using them to quickly flap off into a safe location while hurling bombs (without using up actions to "activate" them ) sounds pretty useful to me.
Same thing when falling or being dropped from great height. Flying straight up 30' usually takes the alchemist out of close combat quite nicely.Oh, and (Ex), hence no dispelling.
So, something better than "red" perhaps ? At least for the Bomber side of things.

I'll admit I haven't used it in tunnels where it seems like it'd be great. Most of my games are a bit more wide open, but even then, I'm not a huge fan of the spread range. It just feels sort of meh to me. Although I will admit that with smoke/stink bombs, it does come off a bit better as a way to separate the battle field. But it feels hard to recommend it when the other type of bomb is doing most of the work.

More and more people have been talking to me about wings, so I might bump it up to orange, but it still feels like a huge waste of a discovery.

Armor and Hybridization Funnel primer are up, Grenadier sample build is probably coming next.

Lantern Lodge

LoL. Man am i so glad i did not check out your guide when i made my alchemist. No offense its just what i made pretty much goes against your guide lol.

I created a Half-Elf Alchemist with the Bramble Brewer and Internal Alchemist archtypes. It got to level 17 before the game ended. The character was a front line melee type that act as the party's tank for the most part. I used the bombs primarily for ranged attacks while they enemy closed the distance, swarms, and creating difficult terrain. Character was great at self heals because of its mutagen gave it fast healing and the discoveries it possessed also gave fast healing, limited sadly but some is better than none. Also the discoveries it had allowed for all day use of mage armor at low levels and all day use of displacement at high levels.

Silver Crusade

Psion-Psycho wrote:

LoL. Man am i so glad i did not check out your guide when i made my alchemist. No offense its just what i made pretty much goes against your guide lol.

I created a Half-Elf Alchemist with the Bramble Brewer and Internal Alchemist archetypes. It got to level 17 before the game ended. The character was a front line melee type that act as the party's tank for the most part. I used the bombs primarily for ranged attacks while they enemy closed the distance, swarms, and creating difficult terrain. Character was great at self heals because of its mutagen gave it fast healing and the discoveries it possessed also gave fast healing, limited sadly but some is better than none. Also the discoveries it had allowed for all day use of mage armor at low levels and all day use of displacement at high levels.

That's fine bro, lots of people have different ways to run their characters. Something I'm learning is that I myself subscribe to a more hyper offense style of play, eschewing survivability for pure power. I'm generally good enough at offense to ignore defense, which seems to be a playstyle a lot of people aren't a fan of for the most part.

The character design seems solid, but I myself really don't care for Internal Alchemist, as it's giving away Throw Anything for something that doesn't really feel that special. Nothing in the archetype feels like a worthwhile trade, which is why I can't suggest it.

But if it worked for you, then it was a good character. The point of the guide is to help people to make a character who fits your personal design goals, and to places it at the power level that's appropriate to your game.

I mean, even though Beastmorph/Vivisectionist is incredibly powerful, you shouldn't play it in a game where you have a wizard casting unaugmented fireballs and where clerics only know how to heal.

That's why I like to think of the ratings as power levels myself (Although the purple stuff really does define specific builds), since you should try to play at the same power level as your party.

Still working on the next sample build, need to read over a few more things first, but I probably won't give them a mundane item loadout, since that's very subjective.

Lantern Lodge

I hear ya the only reason i went for Internal Alchemist was because of the immunities to both disease and poison. The breath ability though was nice for a few occasions like getting my self into an enemy area disguised as a corpse and escape a ship because of holding my breath underwater.

Also, though it was not as much damage as your builds, the character did decent damage thanks to Dervish Dance feat and Agile enchant.

Grand Lodge

The Breath ability of Internal..

Did you know kobolds can take a trait that doubles how long they can hold their breath?

So if Kobold has 12 con.. He could spend one minute to prepare and hold his breath for 24 hours.

Thats freekin impressive if nothing else.

Silver Crusade

Psion-Psycho wrote:

I hear ya the only reason i went for Internal Alchemist was because of the immunities to both disease and poison. The breath ability though was nice for a few occasions like getting my self into an enemy area disguised as a corpse and escape a ship because of holding my breath underwater.

Also, though it was not as much damage as your builds, the character did decent damage thanks to Dervish Dance feat and Agile enchant.

I'll admit my guide goes for offense over defense, and I don't see disease immunity worth losing the Alchemist version of Throw Anything. But I guess if you're in a game where disease is a big thing, it's something to worry about.

I myself don't really think an alchemist should be one handing a weapon. There's just too much of a value in either natural attacks or 2 handers.

Espy Kismet wrote:


The Breath ability of Internal..

Did you know kobolds can take a trait that doubles how long they can hold their breath?

So if Kobold has 12 con.. He could spend one minute to prepare and hold his breath for 24 hours.

Thats freekin impressive if nothing else.

That's pretty amusing. I still don't think it makes a Kobold worth using though. There's basically nothing that makes a Kobold worth using.

Looking for a good template on how to do sample builds now, and still looking for advice for things to put in the guide. I did just get clued into an extra armed vivisectionist that I might highlight soon.


Skinsend is actually really good if you inject it into the opponent, since it is no save

Similar to polypurpose panacea is a no save sleep

Silver Crusade

CWheezy wrote:

Skinsend is actually really good if you inject it into the opponent, since it is no save

Similar to polypurpose panacea is a no save sleep

P. Panacea would work, except your opponent gets to pick which effect is applied to them. There was a bit of discussion on this, and it would have worked as a potion if the range wasn't personal.

Skinsend though...that could work...

Just updated the Vivisectionist with a bit of additional info on how to use extra arms to make a freaking monster (seriously, 6 attacks a round frightens me), still looking for a good format for sample builds.

Let me know if there's anything I'm missing in the guide thus far from any official material.

Grand Lodge

N. Jolly wrote:
Psion-Psycho wrote:

I hear ya the only reason i went for Internal Alchemist was because of the immunities to both disease and poison. The breath ability though was nice for a few occasions like getting my self into an enemy area disguised as a corpse and escape a ship because of holding my breath underwater.

Also, though it was not as much damage as your builds, the character did decent damage thanks to Dervish Dance feat and Agile enchant.

I'll admit my guide goes for offense over defense, and I don't see disease immunity worth losing the Alchemist version of Throw Anything. But I guess if you're in a game where disease is a big thing, it's something to worry about.

I myself don't really think an alchemist should be one handing a weapon. There's just too much of a value in either natural attacks or 2 handers.

Espy Kismet wrote:


The Breath ability of Internal..

Did you know kobolds can take a trait that doubles how long they can hold their breath?

So if Kobold has 12 con.. He could spend one minute to prepare and hold his breath for 24 hours.

Thats freekin impressive if nothing else.

That's pretty amusing. I still don't think it makes a Kobold worth using though. There's basically nothing that makes a Kobold worth using.

Looking for a good template on how to do sample builds now, and still looking for advice for things to put in the guide. I did just get clued into an extra armed vivisectionist that I might highlight soon.

who says you need to be kobold to take kobold trait? Take adopted!


I am drawing up my first go at an Alchemist for our game this Sunday.
I have found some really interesting thoughts and combinations from your guide. I am really amazed at the many 'faces' of the Alchemist.
I have been playing PF for almost 2 years, but I never REALLY looked at the Alchemist too closely prior to now. I usually play Wizards or Trappers, but I really like the wide range of playability that the Alchemist grants.

We are starting at 7th, so you can imagine the many roads that I can take. I am thinking of going Hyde-style (Beastmorph), but I don't want to give up my Bombs, even though I definitely see the awesomeness of the Viv combination.

I just wanted to thank you for the time and effort that you place on this guide, along with everybody who has chimed in!

Question: With Alchemical Allocation + Amplify Elixir + Enhanced Potion + Extend Potion + 7th level Alchemist = 28 hours of duration of Magic Fang, greater +5? (and so on...)

Silver Crusade

Dorian 'Grey' wrote:

I am drawing up my first go at an Alchemist for our game this Sunday.

I have found some really interesting thoughts and combinations from your guide. I am really amazed at the many 'faces' of the Alchemist.
I have been playing PF for almost 2 years, but I never REALLY looked at the Alchemist too closely prior to now. I usually play Wizards or Trappers, but I really like the wide range of playability that the Alchemist grants.

We are starting at 7th, so you can imagine the many roads that I can take. I am thinking of going Hyde-style (Beastmorph), but I don't want to give up my Bombs, even though I definitely see the awesomeness of the Viv combination.

I just wanted to thank you for the time and effort that you place on this guide, along with everybody who has chimed in!

Question: With Alchemical Allocation + Amplify Elixir + Enhanced Potion + Extend Potion + 7th level Alchemist = 28 hours of duration of Magic Fang, greater +5? (and so on...)

I myself was shocked at how versatile the Alchemist can be, it's far more of a varied class than most people give it credit for, and I think it's because a lot of people are scared away from the alternative magic system.

There's a very easy way to build a powerful B. Hyde who doesn't give up bombs, and I wish I'd have had more room to mention it, but most people who want B. Hyde want him as a Vivi, so that's what the lion's share of the B. Hyde description went to. But taking a race like Lizardfolk or Tengu gives you claws and fangs without taking Feral Mutagen, so you can have another discovery to use.

You're very welcome, and I'm glad my guide was of use to you. It's been a labor of love, and I appreciate anyone who's commented on this guide thus far.

And I think so, although I'll have to look over it more later.

A sample build for B. Hyde is up, starting on the Mad Bomber.

Silver Crusade

Sample builds up for B. Hyde and Mad Bomber, although I'm not sure if I'll do a C. Hyde one now. I think most people who want to play Hyde are going to go for Beast/Vivi, so a more control heavy build probably isn't going to be popular enough to give full attention to. Although I feel like the Generalist Alchemist is going to have far more of a vanilla write up, as one would expect. Let me know your guys opinions on this, since I could easily leave just one Hyde up unless you feel C. Hyde needs more explanation

As always, let me know if there's anything I've forgotten or need to add.


I was thinking about potion/extract usage during combat.

Why not modify this to fit potion/extract vials?

Alchemist Bandolier:
Bandolier, Beneficial

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot belt; Price 1,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

DESCRIPTION

This bandolier is made of finely tanned leather. It has slots for up to 200 rounds of ammunition. Pellets and black powder are kept in tiny individual pouches, and bullets in small loops. The bandolier alters itself as needed to accommodate both.

There are also places on the beneficial bandolier for a gunsmith’s kit and a powder horn. Regardless of what quantities of these items are placed within the beneficial bandolier, its weight does not change.

As a swift action, the wearer can command a single round of ammunition from the beneficial bandolier to teleport into a firearm of the appropriate type that he is wielding.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 500 gp.

You could have 1 cubic foot of space per pouch per Caster level of creator? Would the price actually change, because the spell is the same.

You combine that with Accelerated Drinker...

Silver Crusade

Dorian 'Grey' wrote:

I was thinking about potion/extract usage during combat.

Why not modify this to fit potion/extract vials?

** spoiler omitted **

You could have 1 cubic foot of space per pouch per Caster level of creator? Would the price actually change, because the spell is the same.

It really would take some modification, since it's not intended for alchemical items. But I don't think it'd be a huge issue, maybe a price increase for letting you draw things as a swift action instead of a move action.

There is now a sample build for the Mad Bomber, B. Hyde, and C. Hyde at level 5 as well as design notes for each of them. Aside from C. Hyde, the level of power that these builds is rather high, so I'd avoid using them with people who have a more traditional view of the game. Thankfully C. Hyde is more in line with said power level (aside from permalarge and wielding a Meteor Hammer), so I'd go with that one if you have an "old school" GM.

Next is the generalist Alchemist, and then the guide is officially done once again!

As always, let me know if there's anything I'm missing, or if you have any ideas for new roles and such.


All I've been able to think about since Isaw this thread was how nice holy water is for an alchemist.

And the Crypt Breaker archetype's bombs. Those are nasty.

Silver Crusade

Just put up a build for C. Hyde, not really too proud of it but it's a very different style than I thought I was going to go with.

I also listed two items from Mythic Adventures too. I don't think I'll be doing much more of a write up on it. Maybe just a little blurb, but nothing big.

Gotta say, I love the Bountiful Bottle to death.

Silver Crusade

Just a quick question, does anyone think that the guide would be better if I included Mythic information in it? I like the idea of including it, but I'm not sure if it's worth the effort.


If you do include mythic stuff I suggest only as a few optional bits to pick up and use.


I like the guide. You've done an awesome job with it thus far. I favor mythic content to be included in the guide, if possible; mythic games might not be very common, but when they pop up, it would be nice to see some advice on how to run one.

Silver Crusade

King_Of_The_Crossroads wrote:
I like the guide. You've done an awesome job with it thus far. I favor mythic content to be included in the guide, if possible; mythic games might not be very common, but when they pop up, it would be nice to see some advice on how to run one.

Thanks, I've put a lot of effort into it, and I'd like to think that it shows.

I think I'll show the twist and turns of the Trickster Path, seeing as that's the only one that directly affects the Alchemist. I'll probably include a few mythic feats as well, but I'm going to try and put in the standouts.

I'm hoping there's some more info I can put in, but I'm running out of space there. I probably should have done it as a google doc, maybe I'll do that later once I figure out how to (seeing as I'm pretty tech illiterate.) If anyone else wants to help with that, I'd be completely okay with crediting that person.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
N. Jolly wrote:
vikingson wrote:

Just to chime in

Strafe bomb at "orange" ? Well obviously someone hasn't used it for battlefield control, recently ?
Combine with "Smoke" or "Stink" Bomb, and create a visually impenetrable, possibly nauseating wall, save-less. It breaks line of sight, line of charge, gives the group a round to possibly buff up.... etc. While doing damage. Since there isn't a reflex save, only full cover will protect anyone "downblast" from the smoke/stink.
If taking the RAW literally, the smoke/stink-line would be 10' wide besides, usually filling up most corridors quite nicely.

All...at 4th level.

As for "Wings" : yeah, I am not overly enchanted either, but they are (Ex) in nature so using them to quickly flap off into a safe location while hurling bombs (without using up actions to "activate" them ) sounds pretty useful to me.
Same thing when falling or being dropped from great height. Flying straight up 30' usually takes the alchemist out of close combat quite nicely.Oh, and (Ex), hence no dispelling.
So, something better than "red" perhaps ? At least for the Bomber side of things.

I'll admit I haven't used it in tunnels where it seems like it'd be great. Most of my games are a bit more wide open, but even then, I'm not a huge fan of the spread range. It just feels sort of meh to me. Although I will admit that with smoke/stink bombs, it does come off a bit better as a way to separate the battle field. But it feels hard to recommend it when the other type of bomb is doing most of the work.

More and more people have been talking to me about wings, so I might bump it up to orange, but it still feels like a huge waste of a discovery.

Armor and Hybridization Funnel primer are up, Grenadier sample build is probably coming next.

Strafe bombs.... you might also want to take into consideration that it allows you to "bomb" underwater, unless your GM let's you pick the racially-linked Grippli discovery of underwater bombing, since technically the bomb is not "thrown", with the line of damage starting at the Alchmesit. Of course, one should not really pick fire for this^^ depending on your campaign, this will be really useful

Smoke also breaks the line of charge, and usually requires opposing characters to move around it. Nevermind nausea which is deadly if facing low-fort opposition (like aracne casters and rogues) . We had NPCs using it in our S&S campaign (usually under deck, or having the smoke be driven over the deck by prevailing winds), drove the PCs quite mad.

Being capable of (EX) flight (especially at the nice boni from the flight spell) feels - to me - like a major step forward for an alchemist. Flight (same duration, similar level of becoming useful) is rated as one of the strongest utility hexes/abilities of a witch. I see little difference from that to an Alchemists role.

Nevermind, it is also a much quicker way for small characters to flit about the battlefield (20'/action gnome/halfling/gobbo on foot, 60'/action with wings ), with position being of dire importance for alchemists. And you can pick/choose it with an "extra discovery" feat.

Admitted, I prefer my alchemists, small sized, High-Dex'ed and bombing^^ And yes, flight does little for the hulking chymist

Silver Crusade

Vikingson wrote:

Strafe bombs.... you might also want to take into consideration that it allows you to "bomb" underwater, unless your GM let's you pick the racially-linked Grippli discovery of underwater bombing, since technically the bomb is not "thrown", with the line of damage starting at the Alchmesit. Of course, one should not really pick fire for this^^ depending on your campaign, this will be really useful

Smoke also breaks the line of charge, and usually requires opposing characters to move around it. Nevermind nausea which is deadly if facing low-fort opposition (like aracne casters and rogues) . We had NPCs using it in our S&S campaign (usually under deck, or having the smoke be driven over the deck by prevailing winds), drove the PCs quite mad.

Being capable of (EX) flight (especially at the nice boni from the flight spell) feels - to me - like a major step forward for an alchemist. Flight (same duration, similar level of becoming useful) is rated as one of the strongest utility hexes/abilities of a witch. I see little difference from that to an Alchemists role.

Nevermind, it is also a much quicker way for small characters to flit about the battlefield (20'/action gnome/halfling/gobbo on foot, 60'/action with wings ), with position being of dire importance for alchemists. And you can pick/choose it with an "extra discovery" feat.

Admitted, I prefer my alchemists, small sized, High-Dex'ed and bombing^^ And yes, flight does little for the hulking chymist.

I don't know where you're reading that it lets you do underwater bombing.

As I've said before, the smoke bomb is really doing most of the work there, so it's hard to rate Strafe Bomb any higher. If anything, it just speaks more of the value of Smoke Bombs, especially with Fogcutter Lenses.

I don't know how many situations you've been in that you couldn't spare a standard action to down a Fly Extract (Which is a pretty decent one to pick up and have prepared daily), but I can't put Wings up any higher without feeling bad about it.

Flight really is better for the bomber, but it helps out Hyde as well, as increasing your maneuverability is never a bad thing.

Mythic options for Trickster and Universal are up, probably going to do a quick review of some mythic feats, and then finally finish up Beow Hassen, the Generalist Alchemist.


I was considering wings to be a pretty vital discovery for alchemists. But your guide changed my mind on that.

I think the issue is that wings competes with a lot of other great discoveries. By being minutes per level and available as an extract is makes it hard to justify taking over any of half a dozen other better options.


N. Jolly wrote:
There's a very easy way to build a powerful B. Hyde who doesn't give up bombs, and I wish I'd have had more room to mention it

Could you extrapolate on this a little more? We've got a gestalt campaign featuring a fighter//alchemist and I advised him to keep his bombs in case he wanted to do some switch-hitting and crowd control. Any advice you could give toward this or the alternate B. Hyde build you mentioned would be appreciated.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
N. Jolly wrote:
I don't know where you're reading that it lets you do underwater bombing.

The line starts at the alchemist and extends away from him in the direction he chooses. The alchemist designates one creature in the squares affected by the line to be the target of the bomb and makes his attack roll against that creature; all other squares in the line take splash damage. ?

No travel of a thrown object to target under the restrictions of underwater throwing ? Anyway, range 0' (your feet), if you actually stick to the "thrown" part of the bombing manoeuvre is "drop" not throw^^

@flight
As for flight ? Sure, waste an action (which commonly you will be hard pressed to have) on downing a flight potion/extract.

Strangely enough, where I live most battles are over after barely three or four rounds, unless one side purposefully delays, so loosing one of the rarer extracts and waste one of possibly 4-5 actions. Yes I can buff a cleric or alchemist from here all the way to eternity - but one usually does not have the time, or the magical stamina to do it endlessly. And : "he who shoots first, lives the longest" etc etc etc....
Your call. I'd just say that wings are way better than "red"

Grand Lodge

So.. strafe bombs are like a breathweapon in a sense.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Espy Kismet wrote:

So.. strafe bombs are like a breathweapon in a sense.

To my mind, yes.

Silver Crusade

Esquin wrote:
I was considering wings to be a pretty vital discovery for alchemists. But your guide changed my mind on that.
vikingson wrote:

@flight

As for flight ? Sure, waste an action (which commonly you will be hard pressed to have) on downing a flight potion/extract.

Strangely enough, where I live most battles are over after barely three or four rounds, unless one side purposefully delays, so loosing one of the rarer extracts and waste one of possibly 4-5 actions. Yes I can buff a cleric or alchemist from here all the way to eternity - but one usually does not have the time, or the magical stamina to do it endlessly. And : "he who shoots first, lives the longest" etc etc etc....
Your call. I'd just say that wings are way better than "red"

I'l admit most of my fights are 3-5 as well, but even still, flight is worth burning the action on. Moreso if you're passing it off to someone else instead of taking it yourself. That's a bit more on Infusion, but it still gives more utility than the wings you can't give to anyone else. And while the minute burst is nice, I can't count a time where I've really needed to fly in intermittent burst.

In my opinion, the Flight discovery has no sweet spot. If you could take it at second level, you'd at least have 2 levels where it could be used before the Fly extract became available. At level 6, you're competing with: Dispelling Bomb, Grease Bomb, Poison Conversion, and Healing Touch. And those are just the Green and up discoveries. If at some point you could get permanent flight, I would increase it, but considering you eventually learn Overland Flight, this lacks a purpose even at level 20.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Could you extrapolate on this a little more? We've got a gestalt campaign featuring a fighter//alchemist and I advised him to keep his bombs in case he wanted to do some switch-hitting and crowd control. Any advice you could give toward this or the alternate B. Hyde build you mentioned would be appreciated.

Honestly I was joking with my friend about a secret "A. Hyde" build, A. standing for Admixture of both B. and C. Hyde. But really, most of the advice for B. Hyde stands even removing Vivisectionist, except the things about getting sneak attack. A. Hyde is just B. Hyde with bombs, and A. Hyde's selection of bombs should be used more as a setup than as a means of damage.

Your bombs should be used as an opening volley so to speak, taking things like Frost, Grease, Tanglefoot, and so forth to set up your foes for a big pounding. I hate to admit how much I love Lizardfolk for this role, but not needing Feral Mutagen is nice to free up discoveries for a few fun bombs. Although if you're not a lizard person, Feral Mutagen should be the first discovery you pick up, and then decide how you want to control the battlefield carefully. The dex for this build is also pretty minimal, since you're firing off touch attacks (Unless you're going Agile AOMF), and your intelligence only has to break 16 to make sure you're able to use your extracts, although keep it at least decent because its what your bombs base their DC off of (Consider taking Ability Focus: Bombs), making sure your GM allows that.

Don't be afraid to take archetypes that lower your bomb damage, since you're simply using them as a debuffing vector. A few good ones to check out are Beastmorph (an old standby), Clone Master (Always a solid choice), or Trap Breaker (Giving your bombs more utility is always nice) for a few options. Also in case you're creepy, Beastmorph and Reanimator stack, although undead aren't great without Blood Money or some other way of getting them free.

A. Hyde plays like a more aggressive Generalist Alchemist, enough so that the two are basically just a slight variation on each other. Just make sure to keep your attacking stat nice and strong and pre buff when you can.


N. Jolly wrote:
Good stuff

Thanks for the reply! That's what I was seeing would be a good way to go as well.

Silver Crusade

Experiment 626 wrote:
Thanks for the reply! That's what I was seeing would be a good way to go as well.

It's really not hard to customize this flexible class into whatever you need to at this point.

Just did a large overhaul on traits (found a few I forgot, checked a few guides for listings and such), going to be going away for a few days, but when I get back I want to start work on a new guide, so hit me up if you have any ideas what you'd like to see me work on next.


I will--finally--get to see my 7th level Beastmorph Alchemist in action this Sunday.
I have been studying different ways to make him a melee combatant, along with keeping his bombs in play.
I appreciate your guide. I am really liking this class a lot!
I like being able to do a lot of different things and the Alchemist definitely fits that roll.

Wuliem BrokenCrown:
Alchemist (Beastmorph) 7

Racial:
1/2 Orc: flexible, sacred tattoo, darkvision 60', weapon familiarity (greataxe, falchion), Shaman's apprentice, +1/2 bomb damage

Stats:
Str 18 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 7 (18 points + flexible) Bab +5 Fort +10 , Ref +9, Will +8 w/ cloak of Resist +2

Feats:
endurance,iron will, power attack, imp. initiative, extra discovery

Traits:
Accelerated drinker, Pragmatic Activator, Second chance

drawback:
forgetful

class:
beastform mutagen, imp. beastform mutagen, alchemy, bomb 4d6, brew potion, mutagen, throw anything, poison use

discovery:
feral mutagen, frost bombs, precise bombs, enhance potion

extracts:
1st: enlarge person, anticipate peril, CLW, targeted bomb admixture, shield, true strike, endure elements 2nd: alchemical allocation, bull's str., ablative barrier 3rd: amplify elixir

potions:
magic fang, greater (CL 20), magical vestments (CL20)
these I plan to use AA--of course. Plus plug in some as needed ones for combats and such

melee:
2 claws +9 (1d6+10) and bite +14 (1d8+15 with magic fang +5)

defense:
Hp 61 (7d8+14), Ac 22 (+9 armor w/ magical vestment and mithral chain shirt, +1 Dex, +2 Na)

We are starting with 7th level gp, so 23,500, which buys all the standards plus the potions and alchemicals that he will have made himself when able.
Just a rough draft, but with the potions to go along with him, I think he may be pretty effective. Opinions?

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