I was considering wings to be a pretty vital discovery for alchemists. But your guide changed my mind on that.@flight
As for flight ? Sure, waste an action (which commonly you will be hard pressed to have) on downing a flight potion/extract.Strangely enough, where I live most battles are over after barely three or four rounds, unless one side purposefully delays, so loosing one of the rarer extracts and waste one of possibly 4-5 actions. Yes I can buff a cleric or alchemist from here all the way to eternity - but one usually does not have the time, or the magical stamina to do it endlessly. And : "he who shoots first, lives the longest" etc etc etc....
Your call. I'd just say that wings are way better than "red"I'l admit most of my fights are 3-5 as well, but even still, flight is worth burning the action on. Moreso if you're passing it off to someone else instead of taking it yourself. That's a bit more on Infusion, but it still gives more utility than the wings you can't give to anyone else. And while the minute burst is nice, I can't count a time where I've really needed to fly in intermittent burst.
In my opinion, the Flight discovery has no sweet spot. If you could take it at second level, you'd at least have 2 levels where it could be used before the Fly extract became available. At level 6, you're competing with: Dispelling Bomb, Grease Bomb, Poison Conversion, and Healing Touch. And those are just the Green and up discoveries. If at some point you could get permanent flight, I would increase it, but considering you eventually learn Overland Flight, this lacks a purpose even at level 20.
hmm, AFAIK position (and quick repositioning) is everything in Pathfinder fights. And have someone else waste an action to buff my Alchemist ? *shrug* (usually everybody is very busy, right at the beginning of combat, say possibly to set up a smokescreen or momentary block so everyone else can buff to the gills).
I probably game in too many campaigns where the players do not have the initiative or are not given ages to buff up to maximum viability. Or in too many campaigns with dangerous environments, where actually "walking over" to your opponent is not an option.
Short flight, especially without prerequisites is IMHO a priceless choice. How many minutes per day does a PC actually fly ? Throw a bomb and escape outside darkvision (and therefore charge and LoS range = LoE for spells/missiles in most dark environments) range (and thereby being unable to be charged). Fly up, for a better perspective on things or to reach that stupid ledge and throw down a rope, cover 600 yards in a minute, on your own. Have Feather Fall unless stunned/ unconscious. (EX). Drink a potion in flight (rarely an AoO), easy. Counter "Grease" on the ground, fly up out of a cloud, do a flying full-retreat to get out of the middle of the melee... limitless possibilities.
Sure waste a prepared infusion to fly (and take an AoO), waste the in combat action, even if somebody else's (they probably have nothing better to do than buff the Alchemist) . Get dispelled. Poison Conversion is much better /IRONY OFF (especially without a field lab)...
Optimization - to my mind is not simply looking for the highest damage output, but also for the means and end to both project the damage and survive. So I guess we have different takes
I might also want to disagree on what discoveries you judge as green (most of which are HIGHLY situational ) , but it's your guide, I am just trying to provide input.
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I have found a reason for using the Scrap bomb over normal bombs.
Say you wanna blow a hole through a door.. Normal bombs deal energy damage. Energy damage is cut in half /before/ it does damage to objects. So, with not doing energy damage, you don't cut it in half, and only compare it to the hardness.
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hmm, AFAIK position (and quick repositioning) is everything in Pathfinder fights. And have someone else waste an action to buff my Alchemist ? *shrug* (usually everybody is very busy, right at the beginning of combat, say possibly to set up a smokescreen or momentary block so everyone else can buff to the gills).
I probably game in too many campaigns where the players do not have the initiative or are not given ages to buff up to maximum viability. Or in too many campaigns with dangerous environments, where actually "walking over" to your opponent is not an option.
Short flight, especially without prerequisites is IMHO a priceless choice. How many minutes per day does a PC actually fly ? Throw a bomb and escape outside darkvision (and therefore charge and LoS range = LoE for spells/missiles in most dark environments) range (and thereby being unable to be charged). Fly up, for a better perspective on things or to reach that stupid ledge and throw down a rope, cover 600 yards in a minute, on your own. Have Feather Fall unless stunned/ unconscious. (EX). Drink a potion in flight (rarely an AoO), easy. Counter "Grease" on the ground, fly up out of a cloud, do a flying full-retreat to get out of the middle of the melee... limitless possibilities.
Sure waste a prepared infusion to fly (and take an AoO), waste the in combat action, even if somebody else's (they probably have nothing better to do than buff the Alchemist) . Get dispelled. Poison Conversion is much better /IRONY OFF (especially without a field lab)...
You seem rather passionate about this...
As I stated before, Flight doesn't have enough of a sweet spot to me. I'll admit I don't mind the one round to get that Flight extract off, but I'll be more specific about why. And the reason for it really is that again there's not enough time where it's useful. It's kind of like how Explosive Missile is generally great until you get Fast Bombs, and then the standard action to use it becomes obsolete for the most part. By about level 9 or so, you could probably pick up a Broom of Flying, which completely negates that discovery. Nothing about a Broom of Flying says you need hands to use it, so it works just as well, and for 9 hours a day.
I compare the two, but at least Explosive Missile lets you do something completely unique, while Wings doesn't. Flight is an expectation by that level, and there's other things that give it. What I will admit that if your GM allows retraining, it's probably green, but without it, it will become a dead discovery, and that's not something you want. I'd rather have something that gives me a new option.
Optimization - to my mind is not simply looking for the highest damage output, but also for the means and end to both project the damage and survive. So I guess we have different takes
I might also want to disagree on what discoveries you judge as green (most of which are HIGHLY situational ) , but it's your guide, I am just trying to provide input.
This is a little passive aggressive, I agree that optimization is making a character who is capable of surviving whatever the game has to offer. That includes everything that could and most likely will happen.
If you have some things that you want to discuss, I'd be glad to listen. I tried to have green be my most common color, as things that are straight amazing in their situation are green worthy to me, even if it's not an everyday thing.
Just played my third session with my first alchemist on Sunday, and its dawning on me how well the alchemist can play the role of terrorist: bombs, poison, the skill list, some of the infusions. It is also dawning on me that I would have developed the class a little differently. I would have made the infusion list with less self-buffs and more general utility.
I have been waiting to try out mine, but our game continues to get postpone!
Hopefully, this Sunday! I am considering going Grenadier instead of Beastmorph, although I still need to look at it.
Hmmm...I am thinking that the appeal of a ranged Alchemist (Grenadier) does sound interesting, although I also like the idea of B.Hyde!
Is it feasible to try to do both?
Does this mean that the staggering only affects the direct target or also the splash?
Benefit: When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it inflict cold damage. Creatures that take a direct hit from a frost bomb are staggered on their next turn unless they succeed on a Fortitude save.
Direct hit means only those who are hit directly not those in the splash.
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Just played my third session with my first alchemist on Sunday, and its dawning on me how well the alchemist can play the role of terrorist: bombs, poison, the skill list, some of the infusions. It is also dawning on me that I would have developed the class a little differently. I would have made the infusion list with less self-buffs and more general utility.
They really do, I particularly like making a Mad Bomber into a insurgent style character who takes traits for stealth and such to make them into like a secretive spy terrorist.
As for that, I do wish we'd gotten less self buff, maybe some more evocation flavored as "unstable mixtures", like having a Fireball extract, although the range would have been a lot shorter, which could have been a problem.
Hmmm...I am thinking that the appeal of a ranged Alchemist (Grenadier) does sound interesting, although I also like the idea of B.Hyde!
Is it feasible to try to do both?
It's possible, just not advisable. Both do very different things, and unlike a Ranger where your best bet is switch hitting, Alchemist tend to do best when they stick to what makes them blenders.
If you were going to try this, I'd suggest basing your build off of Kallen. I hate to say it, but Kallen probably makes a better Generalist Alchemist than a Mad Bomber because of her stat spread. If you can manage to squeeze the Feral Mutagen discovery in at 6th level (Not too busy a level for you anyways) you'll have a very nice offensive routine as well as a near perfect ranged one as well, making your character quite capable of handling either situation. After that their advancement is really up to you.
I mocked up a 1/2 Orc Grenadier last night.
Obviously, he will be using his longbow (which, by the way, I learned from you the adaptive enhancement! Nice!) and I know that you--probably?--don't like the Enhanced potion thing for this build, but I can't seem to give it up...lol!
He is 7th, so 11 bombs/day for explosive missile and he will still be doing good damage without them thanks to Alchemical weapon.
I figured: Alchemical arrow w/ acid & alchemist's fire 1d8+8 plus 2d6+5 (1d6 fire next round) add explosive missile w/ unstable accelerate bomb (5d6+8) plus 13 splash!
The only thing I see needs improvement is attack: +7
I haven't even included any mutagen and/or extracts into this yet!
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Do bomb-focused alchemists get better at 4th level when you get precise bombs? I've been playing my Mind Chemist Half-Orc in PFS up to about 3.2 and she's been complete garbage every game I play her, like, I get to hit one thing with a bomb if I'm lucky. Do they get better or should I just scrap her and try something else?
Well what exactly is the problem? You'll have to give me more info for me to be able to help.
Mundane items are up, not a huge amount but thanks to Archives of Nethys, I've been able to expand some things a bit more.
I can't hit anything. most of the time there's no room to hit things with bombs because teammates are in the way. Also it takes a lot of buffing for my bombs to do decent damage (cognatogen + targeted bomb so two turns before I can do much attacking, by which time things are dead). Also using it drops my STR so low that I go into medium load so it gets harder for me to get into range.
My alchemist has been spending more time unconscious, asleep, or dying than actually doing any damage, and I find my output incredibly situational and low. Dunno what to do.
I'm thinking you are doing something horribly wrong, or are just having really bad luck. What's your ability scores? Even a 14 Dex should give you a reasonable chance to hit a touch AC on most monsters. And you should get Precise Bombs ASAP if you don't already have it (you should be able to avoid all your teammates at that point).
Assuming you have at least an 18 Int, you should be able to do a reasonable amount of area damage with your bombs, and consider taking the more controlling discoveries such as tanglefoot bombs, etc. Sure, your other teammates might deal more single target damage, but you should be softening them up for your other party members to finish off that much easier. My level 7 alchemist outshines our archer often because of the overall damage dealt is pretty comparable, and touch AC is usually quite a bit lower than regular AC on most monsters.
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here is my biggest suggestions for you Rat.
1 - Take your Cognatogen earlier. Its a bit of a predicting game here, which does make it difficult to use it right, but predict when you'll need it. You shouldn't have to take it at the start of every combat unless you are really really low level.
2 - Realize that your bombs at early levels are not your only source of damage. You might have to underplay yourself for a few levels, as in use things like a crossbow or some such. Later levels, you'll probally get rapid bombs or some such.
The alchemist requires a lot more thinking than most other classes and a whole lot more predicting. Otherwise, you'll spend most combats buffing and not much more.
I have 16 DEX and 17 INT, and I have tanglefoot bombs but they haven't been very useful. Again, most of the time I can't get in a position to use my bombs.
I'm not sure what you mean by getting into position? Even with a 20' range increment, you should be able to hit a target at 40-60' away. Are you lacking Precise Bombs and/or Precise Shot? Not having the latter can really hurt once the party is engaged. The one nice part of tanglefoot bombs is that you can split up a group of monsters pretty easily, immobilizing the target while slowing the rest, and still contributing damage.
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I have precise shot but not precise bombs yet. Every time I tried to throw out of my range increment I ended up missing badly and sometimes hurting allies, so I don't really feel comfortable doing that anymore.
Honestly I'm not sure why you're missing so much. It almost sounds like your party isn't working with you. You'll need a group who's willing to let you bomb, although I'll admit that Precise Bomb is going to be a big help in keeping your party safe. It's one of the reasons that I like the Grenadier archetype so much; getting it for free is amazing.
You might want to rebuild, as honestly it doesn't sound like Mindchemist is working out for you. Losing the 2 damage for a Cognotogen isn't terrible for the +2 to attack you'll be getting for a regular Mutagen, and it gives a decent AC boost.
I did actually just finish off the Mad Bomber build (Kallen got moved over to the Generalist Alchemist section), so you might want to check over that, although honestly I think Kallen's build would probably work better for what you were trying to do.
Another feat to look into is Splash Weapon Mastery. It's a better version of Far Shot, but specific to splash weapons. Best of all, you can adjust the ending location on a miss (only by one step, but that can make all the difference).
N. Jolly i'm curious about your use of bucklers on some of your builds. Alchemists don't get proficiency with shields.
If the shield has no ACP, then there is no penalty to use a shield without proficiency. So a mithril buckler is a popular choice for casters.
Darkwood buckler is cheaper.
Darkwood buckler is cheaper.
True, I guess it depends on if you care about it getting sundered (granted, unlikely unless the player or GM is a jerk).
Can an Alchemist use a potion of Magic Weapon, greater on his bombs?
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Can an Alchemist use a potion of Magic Weapon, greater on his bombs?
I'm going to say no, since I think GMW is an oil instead of a potion, seeing as it's applied to weapons. I suppose you could add it to each bomb, but that'd be way too expensive to be of value.
Although of the ideas I've enjoyed, a conductive launching crossbow is at the top of the list. I really like the idea of a 3 for 2 exchange rate to hit someone with two bombs at the same time, especially using two different kinds of debuff bombs.
i figured that would be too gross!
also was looking at feral mutagen, combined with alchemical weapon? It does only say 'weapon' and that it 'does not harm the weapon'...
btw, magic weapon is listed as a poition...
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i figured that would be too gross!
also was looking at feral mutagen, combined with alchemical weapon? It does only say 'weapon' and that it 'does not harm the weapon'...
I don't see any reason why not, and the thought of throwing a hybrid fire/acid combo into your mouth seems really freaking cool. It really only takes off after 6th level though, otherwise it's not worth interrupting your bite/claw/claw routine.
btw, magic weapon is listed as a potion...
Yeah, all the oils are. I actually checked that myself, and there's not really a good description of the difference between potions and oils (or if someone with brew potion can create oils as well), but generally you can tell because the target of an oil is an object and not a person (like how invisibility is listed as both a potion and an oil.)
I have an extra discovery slot open (dumped enhance potion) and was thinking about taking feral mutagen to go along with ranged asssitance if i run out of bombs.
I do have montrous physique I so do i need feral?
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I have an extra discovery slot open (dumped enhance potion) and was thinking about taking feral mutagen to go along with ranged asssitance if i run out of bombs.
I do have montrous physique I so do i need feral?
I'd go with Feral, it's pretty amazing to pick up three primary attacks at once.
And the choice between MP I and Feral is more a matter of how much prep time you often have before encounters. While you can afford to predown a mutagen before combat, the duration of MP I isn't really long enough to have it running as often as your Mutagen.
Feral is generally pretty nice though, so I don't think it's ever really a bad investment, but the longer you have MP X up for, the less worthwhile Feral Mutagen is.
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From the looks of things, this replicates a 1/day use of alchemical allocation. That seems to make alchemists hella-less unique/useful since it give an ability to anyone for "free" (because the remaining 4000g is the equivalent cost of a level 2 spell slot)
Because this item just duplicates AA +boro bead, I don't see why you would make this item a must-have for alchemists. You mentioned a mythic bonus though; I guess that's what makes it good? You don't mention what the mythic bonus is, and I don't know what it is.
The thing that really makes it special to me is the price tag on it, basically making it AA for 4k, but everyone can use it. The mythic bonus is just being able to burn a myth on it to turn the wait down from a day to a round. But this is another good item to keep yourself from stretching out your resources too thin. It's the same as a second level Boro Bead, so maybe I'll take it down to Blue, but I still really love this.
I'd say this wouldn't work, since it's target is an object, hence it would be an oil. It's unfortunate that Paizo/Pathfinder doesn't distinguish this sort of stuff better, but realistically I think it's pretty clear that it couldn't be done.
To add to the list of potions, I'd definitely put Darkvision on there, as well as Acute Senses CL8 or CL 16, Fly, Burrow, and Goodhope or Heroism.
Fly and/or burrow are alternatives for dimension door since some DMs may not allow level 3 summoner potions unless you had a party member summoner with brew potion or happened to meet such a person. Fly and/or burrow can still useful even with dimension door though, since they can be used in combat for interesting effects.
I'll give you that, it's been removed from the guide since the whole potion/oil thing is a little muddy in PF. I don't really care for Darkvision since most things have it, but I'll admit it's worth it for the normal sight Alchs.
I really thought I had Heroism on there...gonna have to add that one. I'm cool with adding alternative movement forms, as anything that makes combat more three dimensional is going to be optimal for an Alchemist.
I agree with the Feral mutagen being a great choice. I took it!
I will have to do more research on Magical Vestment, though.
I hate to give up +5 Ac too easily!
Ok....here is the lawyer in me....
School transmutation; Level cleric/oracle 3, inquisitor 3; Domain nobility 3, strength 3, war 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
EFFECT
Range touch
Target armor or shield touched
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)
DESCRIPTION
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
This wording implies that the drinker of the potion causes the effect. It is not applied to the item, but the target 'imbues' the item with the enchantment.
Yeah, my fellow group members also argued against it.
So, I went with Enhance potion + Extend potion + Amplify Elixir for a potion of Barkskin (CL 12) = 8 hours NA +5 which stacks with the +2 from Mutagen!
Potion of Magic Fang, greater (CL 20) +Amplify Elixir +Extend potions +Alchemical Allocation = 80 hours
Also Ant haul, Ablative barrier, delay poison, false life; basically any spell that is 1 hour/level, or even 10 minutes per level.
Combined with Extend potions helps too!
Ok. I am feeling--a bit--guilty. I finally got to play my Alchemist today.
1/2 Orc Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivsectionist) 7
In 1 round of buffs (swift-draw potion of Bull's Strength, move=drink potion, standard=drink mutagen)...
In a full attack round: 2 claws +16 (1d6+17 plus 4d6 sneak) and 1 bite +16 (1d8+17 plus 4d6 sneak).
In our final combat of the session, we had 2 rounds to buff, so I also drank an Alchemical allocation and then an Improved Invisibility potion for certain sneak damage.
We were facing 3 CR 8 Cyclops...they died in 5 rounds only because I had to fly a double move to reach the last one!
Now the other 3 players are 'changing' their characters!
oops!
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Ok. I am feeling--a bit--guilty. I finally got to play my Alchemist today.
1/2 Orc Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivsectionist) 7
In 1 round of buffs (swift-draw potion of Bull's Strength, move=drink potion, standard=drink mutagen)...
In a full attack round: 2 claws +16 (1d6+17 plus 4d6 sneak) and 1 bite +16 (1d8+17 plus 4d6 sneak).
In our final combat of the session, we had 2 rounds to buff, so I also drank an Alchemical allocation and then an Improved Invisibility potion for certain sneak damage.
We were facing 3 CR 8 Cyclops...they died in 5 rounds only because I had to fly a double move to reach the last one!
Now the other 3 players are 'changing' their characters!
oops!
I believe I warned you about BM/VivI, now didn't I? You don't even have pounce yet!
Yeah, BM/Vivi is made for one reason, and one reason only. And you just showed your party what that one thing is. Hell, show them the guide, see if they can get any ideas from it. Maybe you'll be in a party of Alchemist next week.
Slowly getting started on the Barbarian guide next, it feels like it'll be short and fun to do.
They all just stared at me like I was a mutated monster-beast thing!
...oh, wait...I am!
Thanks for the guide. I must have drawn up 5 different version before settling on that path!
I am usually a Wizard, so this is totally out of the box for me!