Chasing the Philosopher's Stone: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Alchemist


Advice

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Silver Crusade

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Dorian 'Grey' wrote:

They all just stared at me like I was a mutated monster-beast thing!

...oh, wait...I am!

Thanks for the guide. I must have drawn up 5 different version before settling on that path!

I am usually a Wizard, so this is totally out of the box for me!

No problem, glad to help.

Barb guide is going slowly, did some edits, still need to add the other potions to the list, but that aside I still consider the guide complete.

Still looking for critique and criticism on it though, so if there's anything I forgot or should re evaluate, let me know.


Dorian 'Grey' wrote:

Potion of Magic Fang, greater (CL 20) +Amplify Elixir +Extend potions +Alchemical Allocation = 80 hours

Also Ant haul, Ablative barrier, delay poison, false life; basically any spell that is 1 hour/level, or even 10 minutes per level.

Combined with Extend potions helps too!

I was specifically referring to the empower effect, not the extend potion effect.

False life is still a good one though. That's an average of 5–8 (depending on level) more health for regular false life.

I wonder if amplify elixir could work with an extract. RAW no, but maybe some GMs would allow it.


Every morning, drink Amplify elixir, then 7 rounds of 'extend' on next 7 potions w/o variable effects!

It grants me:
1. Potion of magic fang, greater (CL 20th) + extend potion and alchemical allocation = 80 hours

2. Potion of barkskin (CL 12th) + extend potion + alchemical allocation = 8 hours

3. Potion of ablative barrier (CL 7th) + extend potion + extend = 28 hours

4. Potion of Negate aroma(CL 7) = 14 hours

5. Potion of Anthaul (CL 7) = 28 hours

6. Potion of delay poison (CL 7) = 14 hours

7. Potion of false life (CL 7) = 14 hours

It is a nice buff!


Is there any thing to have to be able to hit incorporeal creatures for the Hyde build?


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Some things for you to consider...
- Your coloring scheme is confusing. Why is there one color, then two different colors for Bomber/Hyde? I feel like the option should be labeled in black... you're encouraging us to ignore that and look at the color based on Hyde/Bomber status anyways, right? If not, that's the impression I am getting.

Races
- Gnomes should be blue if your group allows crafting. They can get Weapon Proficiency (Everything) which opens a whole world of shenanigans. The Saboteur is also fantastic.

- Elves are rated a bit highly IMO, although I can understand the desire for the free weapon proficiency. Any time I try to, mechanically, select an Elf I always go, "Why are you not an Ork or a Halfling?"

- Half-Orc should be Blue for bombers entirely for the alternate racial feature. Its disgusting. Some of their alternate racial features are also particularly nice, and open some things up.

- Not going over featured/uncommon races because I can't do them off the top of my head. Only thing I recall Tieflings arguably being the best of the best bombers, and your guide reflects that.

Traits
- I feel like your Trait section gives way too much information organized poorly. Your choice to use spoiler tags is particularly egregious here. I feel like you could tell us generally what to look for and then point out notable exceptions / choices. This is not the place to waste wordcount on Red/Orange choices, or even Green choices unless you think its a mistake someone will make. A link to the dedicated Trait guide may also be prudent and save you space.

- Defensive Strategist isn't as good as I think you think it is. Flat-Footed =/= denied dexterity bonus to AC. Its still good, mind you, but you may want to give it another look before keeping it purple.

Feats
- Your Feat section isn't as bad as your trait section, but you give a lot of information people don't need. A general section telling you what you are looking for in feats and what to stay away from can save you a lot of space. You don't need to go over every bad option, just every good one and some really bad options.

- Extra Discovery is not purple? I stare at every feat, regardless of what build the Alchemist is and go, "Why are you not Extra Discovery?" Now, there are times when I can come up with a good answer to that question, but the fact that it is the measure by which every other choice is made means that its a solid Purple / Blue for Bomber/Hyde.

- Kirin style is a perfect example of a bad choice you should cover, because it looks so good on paper. In practice, you spend too many swift actions setting it up. You could have spent those swift actions on Arcane Strike or something instead.

Extracts
- Your Extract List suffers from the same issue I see from similar lists judging Spells... So I can't really hold it against you. You really use a different measure in different situations. When I'm looking at a spell list, I want to know what I should get immediately and spend my precious combat action on, what I should prioritize to use during non-combat time? How does that change as I level? Beyond that I want to know what situations situational Extracts are useful in. As a book-based caster, its hard to really have a red spell as well.

- Alchemical Allocation deserves its own section.

- Vomit Swarm is disgusting against (and only against) clever GMs. Its particularly useful if you stealth and control the engagement. Thing is an amazing Kobold-Tunnel-Clearer.

- Your ratings are sometimes at odds with your description. For instance, blistering invective. This is confusing to a new person.

- Touch Injection is also disgusting, for reasons people have already said and so many more. Not only does it let you mass-apply buffs but some infusions have rather amusing offensive-possibilities.

- The more I read your extract section the more I realize I'm not getting the information I want, or would hypothetically want as a new person. There are too few Blues. I can't even begin to imagine what an optimal Extract spread is, going entirely from your list, because apparently every thing sucks. Alchemical Allocation in every slot ever?

- Communal Spells exist as Extracts just so the Alchemist can learn them from a spellbook, not because they in any way bypass the rules for infusions or extracts. This was stated by a developer or something a while back, but I'm too lazy to go digging for the quote.

- You keep referencing types of hydes, et cetera at this point but you haven't explained what, exactly, they are. I can infer thanks to prior knowledge, but a new player would not be able to.

- Magic Jar should be Purple, and then stricken from existence because it breaks the game.

- Over all, relate Extracts to other Extracts of the same level. An option is blue if its the only good option, et cetera.

Archetypes
- Archetypes feel somehow unfocused, but I can't put my finger on it.

- Crypt Breaker should be higher than Red. Not only does it give trapfinding, which may be amazing depending on party composition, but their bombs deal acid damage, which is a less common resistance. The situational bonus damage may or may not be fantastic depending on your campaign. The only reason I wouldn't say blue is because its competing with Grenadier.

- You really love Brew Potion too much.

- Alchemical Weapon deserves its own section. There are not words to describe how disgusting this ability can get, particularly at level 6+.

- Preservationist should be Blue. Summoning is and will always be the strongest choice.

- Briar Bombs wins combat at lower levels. Hyde will want to look elsewhere, however. That said, its a tad party-contextual.

- Gnome Saboteur should be at least green, if not blue.

Items
- Why are you listing every conceivable weapon? Like... Why? We really only need to know about the good ones.

- You aren't advocating proper use of firearms, launching crossbows, syringe spears (which are awesome, by the way), et cetera. Namely, you're advocating actually reloading the buggers in combat. Don't. Fire and forget.

- Shotguns are amazing on a Grenadier. It turns your alchemist fire, tanglefoot bag, whatever into cone-based AoE.

- Use Burst Jars to get your Int*2 to damage using a hybridization funnel.

- Re: Ghast Retch Flask. I'm pretty sure that rules for stacking sickening don't actually exist. There's a single mention of it in an example used by the Monk.

- Shard Gels are splash weapons.

- Unstable Accelerant really shouldn't be purple. Its rarely worth the GP at any level where its damage matters, especially en-masse.

- Fungel Stun Vial should really be blue. It remains relevant into your teens, and Stun is a no-joke condition.

- There are more good uses for alchemical items for you to find.

Magic Items
- +1 Bane Arrows are a common thing, and awesome.

- I believe Conductive Stacks with Explosive Missile, but I may be wrong. Explosive Missile + Conductive + Coated Acid Flask remain a viable source of damage into your teens, at least.

- Designating, notably, does not stack with Pheremone arrows.

- Endless Ammunition is useful in the hedge case where you are using a Double Crossbow late-game.


I only just took up an interest in Alchemists, and I'm wondering if it's possible to play an effective alchemist that's neither a Mad Bomber nor a Mr Hide. I'm imagining alchemists as more academic, scholarly types, and while they no doubt know how to make bombs, it's not their primary hammer in search of a nail. A brainier alchemist. Maybe one that uses guns and other high tech stuff? Is that possible while still being effective?

I think the main thing I'm missing in this guide is a discussion on play styles. A listing on abilities that are good or bad is useful, but how should I use them? How do I turn those abilities into a coherent whole? And what alchemisty things can I do that aren't specifically tied to these abilities?


A very minor thing, but a Preservationist gets Summon Nature's Ally, not Summon Monster. The latter is what your C.Hyde build has.

Edit: Nice guide BTW, very useful info, and one of the few that is actually updated!


Dorian 'Grey' wrote:

Every morning, drink Amplify elixir, then 7 rounds of 'extend' on next 7 potions w/o variable effects!

1. Potion of magic fang, greater (CL 20th) + extend potion and alchemical allocation = 80 hours
2. Potion of barkskin (CL 12th) + extend potion + alchemical allocation = 8 hours
3. Potion of ablative barrier (CL 7th) + extend potion + extend = 28 hours
4. Potion of Negate aroma(CL 7) = 14 hours
5. Potion of Anthaul (CL 7) = 28 hours
6. Potion of delay poison (CL 7) = 14 hours
7. Potion of false life (CL 7) = 14 hours

Yes you pretty much already explained that in your previous post. That's not really contributing any new information.

Since you mentioned it again though, I'll be a little picky and point some things out:
Some GMs might not allow a double extend(I would think; Probably on the basis that as far as I know no other rules in the game intentionally allow double doubling or half halving. In fact because of that, at best it would be 3x duration not 4; I think it's mentioned in some rules or or something), and most GMs probably would not allow character to buy CL 20 potions for most campaigns, but it's still worth noting for those who can get away with it.

In my eyes there's not much purpose to buy/craft a potion of Ablative Barrier or False Life since you could just use spare formula slots to use them on demand. Sure you get double duration, but would you really need double duration for something that's 7 hour duration? Virtually all hostile encounters occur within 7 hours for the day.
For the both of them that's an extra 700g-1400g you could have spent on other things (particularly such as 3rd level potions), and didn't really need to spend.

Since Ant Haul and Negate Aroma are level 1 spells, it's pretty bad idea to use alchemical allocation on them (which you'd have to be doing if you were drinking CL 7 potions unless you were crazy). spending a VALUEABLE and LIMITED 2nd level slot on a 1st level spell is a big "no no" in my opinion. When I played alchemist I had level 1 spell (formula) slots in abundance, and if you don't, it's easy to get get more at a far cheaper cost than 2nd level slots.
2nd level slots cost 4000g each, while 1st level slots cost only 1000g. So you can cast negate aroma or ant haul 4 times before you run into the same sort of cost as using a potion with alchemical allocation.

Barkskin and CL20 potions of spell you can't cast are definitely great options to use it with though.

Unless you use a use of Extend Potion discovery False life would just be 7 hour duration, because it has variable effects and hence wouldn't be extended by amplify elixir(as per RAW where it doesn't allow the caster to choose which effect they want; if it has a variable effect it's automatically empowered).

Another factor is the fact that it might take more than 7 rounds for most alchemists to cast 7 alchemical allocations and drink 7 potions.

ShadowGambit0 wrote:
Unstable Accelerant really shouldn't be purple. Its rarely worth the GP at any level where its damage matters, especially en-masse.

I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree with this, and think it should be at least blue. Overall I think the difference between blue and purple is somewhat negligible. This is an excellent way to boost damage in the toughest combats without even spending an additional action

ShadowGambit0 wrote:
Use Burst Jars to get your Int*2 to damage using a hybridization funnel.

You mean burst jar with something else? Sure burst jar works, but so do other things. I don't see why it's that special.

Also I'd say that you can't get 2xint for using hybridization funnel, and I think most GMs would agree. It becomes one thrown splash weapon so it's 1x int.
ShadowGambit0 wrote:
Shotguns are amazing on a Grenadier. It turns your alchemist fire, tanglefoot bag, whatever into cone-based AoE.

Scatter weapon quality says "its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike." — It's kinda iffy but this seems to imply it may not work at all for scatter guns. While RAW says "feat" I think it intends to include abilities in general as well. Alchemical weapon's damage is also more-or-less precision damage as per it's description saying it doesn't double on crit, so there's another reason.

Perhaps more accurately, Alchemical weapon says "piece of ammunition", indicating a single object, not a handful of scatter shot. Even ignoring that it says "the next creature struck" not the "next creatures".


mcv wrote:

I only just took up an interest in Alchemists, and I'm wondering if it's possible to play an effective alchemist that's neither a Mad Bomber nor a Mr Hide. I'm imagining alchemists as more academic, scholarly types, and while they no doubt know how to make bombs, it's not their primary hammer in search of a nail. A brainier alchemist. Maybe one that uses guns and other high tech stuff? Is that possible while still being effective?

I think the main thing I'm missing in this guide is a discussion on play styles. A listing on abilities that are good or bad is useful, but how should I use them? How do I turn those abilities into a coherent whole? And what alchemisty things can I do that aren't specifically tied to these abilities?

Yes, definitely. They just might not be as optimally built. Realize that this guide is more or less a powergaming guide, not a guide on how to make a cool role playing character.

You could have an alchemist/herbalist monk or an alchemist wizard/summoner, alchemist gunslinger, or other —in my opinion— interesting scenarios. That said, those are classes, not just builds (and you could run a specific build while staying pure alchemist).

Build-wise, there's the poison option, since poison is the most effective in the hands of an alchemist. There's also the ability to buff/heal, which would rely on using infused extracts (and/or troll styptics), but it's not much different than what a cleric/wizard/other can do without having to spend a feat (except the ability to buff people with personal spells like false life or shield).

I guess you could use a gun, but I personally wouldn't do it and some GMs might be adverse to it because I and/or they have an aversion to having guns in fantasy (magical medieval) settings. That may not apply to all players/GMs though. Alchemist does seem to be a person that makes the most sense to be wielding a gun though. Aside from that, guns are just expensive too— 11 gold per shot (around the price of +1 arrows I think?), as well as about 1000-7000g for the gun

I don't see a gun changing one's overall build style too much though. With the Explosive missile discovery, you'd more-or less still want to get all the discoveries that mad bomber gets since your gun shots will also use a bomb.


joesi:
In my eyes there's not much purpose to buy/craft a potion of Ablative Barrier or False Life since you could just use spare formula slots to use them on demand. Sure you get double duration, but would you really need double duration for something that's 7 hour duration? Virtually all hostile encounters occur within 7 hours for the day.
For the both of them that's an extra 700g-1400g you could have spent on other things (particularly such as 3rd level potions), and didn't really need to spend.

I agree, I was definitely being greedy!

joesi:
Since Ant Haul and Negate Aroma are level 1 spells, it's pretty bad idea to use alchemical allocation on them (which you'd have to be doing if you were drinking CL 7 potions unless you were crazy). spending a VALUEABLE and LIMITED 2nd level slot on a 1st level spell is a big "no no" in my opinion. When I played alchemist I had level 1 spell (formula) slots in abundance, and if you don't, it's easy to get get more at a far cheaper cost than 2nd level slots.
2nd level slots cost 4000g each, while 1st level slots cost only 1000g. So you can cast negate aroma or ant haul 4 times before you run into the same sort of cost as using a potion with alchemical allocation.

I don't use AA with these, since any 1st level potion I drink becomes my CL plus the amplify elixir being active, although you are correct in that I am being greedy by trying to stack the durations. But our game is such a power game that our DM is...flexible.

Silver Crusade

Jeblus, looks like I got a lot to reply to. I'm glad I didn't answer this last night, I was in no mood for criticism there.

SoulGambit0 wrote:

Some things for you to consider...

- Your coloring scheme is confusing. Why is there one color, then two different colors for Bomber/Hyde? I feel like the option should be labeled in black... you're encouraging us to ignore that and look at the color based on Hyde/Bomber status anyways, right? If not, that's the impression I am getting.

Yeah, it seems you didn't get that the first option was being rated for a non specific alchemist. I'll admit that's partially my fault, and now I've put a little blurb in the beginning that states how the ratings are working, as not everyone wants to play either Hyde or a bomber.

Quote:

Races

- Gnomes should be blue if your group allows crafting. They can get Weapon Proficiency (Everything) which opens a whole world of shenanigans. The Saboteur is also fantastic.

- Elves are rated a bit highly IMO, although I can understand the desire for the free weapon proficiency. Any time I try to, mechanically, select an Elf I always go, "Why are you not an Ork or a Halfling?"

- Half-Orc should be Blue for bombers entirely for the alternate racial feature. Its disgusting. Some of their alternate racial features are also particularly nice, and open some things up.

- Not going over featured/uncommon races because I can't do them off the top of my head. Only thing I recall Tieflings arguably being the best of the best bombers, and your guide reflects that.

On gnomes, I really don't see how having any weapon proficiency makes them great. Generally you'll be sticking to one or two weapons at most (Launching Crossbow and Flask Flinger come to mind), so that little bonus doesn't really feel too important.

Elves have great racials for bombers and decent for everything else, as well as pretty solid alt racial traits to bail out on everything else.

Do you mean their Favored Class bonus for Half-Orcs? Because aside from that, their alt racial traits are good, but nothing amazing unless you're going Endurance/Diehard/Etc

Quote:

Traits

- I feel like your Trait section gives way too much information organized poorly. Your choice to use spoiler tags is particularly egregious here. I feel like you could tell us generally what to look for and then point out notable exceptions / choices. This is not the place to waste wordcount on Red/Orange choices, or even Green choices unless you think its a mistake someone will make. A link to the dedicated Trait guide may also be prudent and save you space.

- Defensive Strategist isn't as good as I think you think it is. Flat-Footed =/= denied dexterity bonus to AC. Its still good, mind you, but you may want to give it another look before keeping it purple.

I've had other people take issue with the spoiler tags, but I like them because they keep the information where it needs to be without flooding the reader. You can look at only what you want instead of needing to look at everything, which I find useful. I don't see how it's disorganized though, as it's done by type of trait and alphabetically, which seems quite intuitive to me.

As for the other traits and their inclusion, the one thing I know with absolute certainty is that I haven't thought of everything that you will, and having a large list there is helpful for sparking some people's imaginations. I did throw in a few to keep people away from them (Killer and Anatomist), but I could see cutting down on a few. And I'd link to that guide but honestly the Alchemist is taking traits for them, and that guide doesn't have some of the traits I listed. Generally I like giving too much instead of too little.

As for Defensive Strategist, the only difference between it and Uncanny Dodge is the line about invisible attackers, so I still consider it amazing.

Quote:

Feats

- Your Feat section isn't as bad as your trait section, but you give a lot of information people don't need. A general section telling you what you are looking for in feats and what to stay away from can save...

- Extra Discovery is not purple? I stare at every feat, regardless of what build the Alchemist is and go, "Why are you not Extra Discovery?" Now, there are times when I can come up with a good answer to that question, but the fact that it is the measure by which every other choice is made means that its a solid Purple / Blue for Bomber/Hyde.

- Kirin style is a perfect example of a bad choice you should cover, because it looks so good on paper. In practice, you spend too many swift actions setting it up. You could have spent those swift actions on Arcane Strike or something instead.

I'm never quite sure how to take things like this, as often times I'm told I'm being too vague (we NEED sample builds, we don't actually know what a C. Hyde build is), and other times to specific, so I'd rather just give the options the way I have, as otherwise I risk some people not understanding things.

Yeah, Kirin style is kinda crappy, I probably should drop it a bit.

I don't consider it purple because it isn't a centerpiece of the build. It's still always a good call (Especially for a dedicated bomber), but I'd rather not oversell it. Maybe I will make it purple for bombers though.

Quote:

Extracts

- Your Extract List suffers from the same issue I see from similar lists judging Spells... So I can't really hold it against you. You really use a different measure in different situations. When I'm looking at a spell list, I want to know what I should get immediately and spend my precious combat action on, what I should prioritize to use during non-combat time? How does that change as I level? Beyond that I want to know what situations situational Extracts are useful in. As a book-based caster, its hard to really have a red spell as well.

- Alchemical Allocation deserves its own section.

- Vomit Swarm is disgusting against (and only against) clever GMs. Its particularly useful if you stealth and control the engagement. Thing is an amazing Kobold-Tunnel-Clearer.

- Your ratings are sometimes at odds with your description. For instance, blistering invective. This is confusing to a new person.

- Touch Injection is also disgusting, for reasons people have already said and so many more. Not only does it let you mass-apply buffs but some infusions have rather amusing offensive-possibilities.

- The more I read your extract section the more I realize I'm not getting the information I want, or would hypothetically want as a new person. There are too few Blues. I can't even begin to imagine what an optimal Extract spread is, going entirely from your list, because apparently every thing sucks. Alchemical Allocation in every slot ever?

- Communal Spells exist as Extracts just so the Alchemist can learn them from a spellbook, not because they in any way bypass the rules for infusions or extracts. This was stated by a developer or something a while back, but I'm too lazy to go digging for the quote.

- You keep referencing types of hydes, et cetera at this point but you haven't explained what, exactly, they are. I can infer thanks to prior knowledge, but a new player would not be able to.

- Magic Jar should be Purple, and then stricken from existence because it breaks the game.

- Over all, relate Extracts to other Extracts of the same level. An option is blue if its the only good option, et cetera.

I'm not really sure how you're starting this off, and it seems like a little too much hand holding to me. That's probably just me, as I'm not a fan of it excessively (I don't think you NEED sample builds myself) but the amount of word count that would go into what you're asking is beyond the scope of this guide. I probably should have done it as a doc for that reason.

Yes, yes it does. I feel I almost did that with the "Potions you should take" section later in the guide.

I did undersell Vomit Swarm a bit, as it does scale, which I really like.

And yeah, that's mostly because of revisions that didn't get changed, I'll try to keep those more consistent.

You don't only have to take blue listed things, and I'd rather be honest about the power levels about things than lie about how good something is to fill in room at the top. All I'm giving is an opinion on the ability, and a somewhat vague/generic use for it. There's nothing wrong with doubling up on good extracts either, and the Alchemist does have a lot of REALLY situational abilities. That's almost the definition of orange.

I'm...not really sure what you mean by this one. I just think the Communal versions weren't really explained well enough for my taste, and don't make a huge amount of sense for an Alchemist to even have them on their list.

...? I described them in the second post. And their design goals. I don't see how someone would have a problem figuring out what I meant here, since the concepts were already spoken about earlier in the guide.

I'll agree here, I'm not sure what I was thinking making that just blue.

I'll consider that, but it does go against what I'm trying to do to some extent. I guess I like taking a long view on things myself.

Silver Crusade

Continuing in a second post as this is getting a bit long.

SoulGambit0 wrote:

Archetypes

- Archetypes feel somehow unfocused, but I can't put my finger on it.

- Crypt Breaker should be higher than Red. Not only does it give trapfinding, which may be amazing depending on party composition, but their bombs deal acid damage, which is a less common resistance. The situational bonus damage may or may not be fantastic depending on your campaign. The only reason I wouldn't say blue is because its competing with Grenadier.

- You really love Brew Potion too much.

- Alchemical Weapon deserves its own section. There are not words to describe how disgusting this ability can get, particularly at level 6+.

- Preservationist should be Blue. Summoning is and will always be the strongest choice.

- Briar Bombs wins combat at lower levels. Hyde will want to look elsewhere, however. That said, its a tad party-contextual.

- Gnome Saboteur should be at least green, if not blue.

I don't know why you find this disorganized, as I've done more to organize this section than 90% of other guides, especially warning people of archetypes that aren't optimal until a certain point.

Trapfinding is garbage, period. No questions on this, it's not worth considering in a serious conversation. Acid bombs are nice, but most opponents are going to be one that's only taking 1d4, and if I wanted to drop my bomb's damage, I'd make them force, not acid. Also Cryptbreaker's Draught is terrible. All the visions it gives you are things you could have racially or just buy, and it gives you light blindness too? I don't like taking abilities that give me weaknesses. This is a terrible archetype, and far outstripped by Trap Breaker.

I do like Brew Potion a lot, since it's both thematic and valuable. I may value it a little high, but it's worth keeping if you can.

Yeah, it does. But I'd rather people figure out how to use it on their own, really experiment with it.

This I will give you, I'm not sure why I placed that as lowly as I did, as being able to pass off summons for party members to use even when you're not around is pretty awesome.

I suppose I was a little stingy, I guess the lack of damage just bothered me a bit.

I'm willing to bump this up a bit, but it doesn't feel blue to me for anyone. I just don't see it as a massive shift for the alchemist.

Quote:

Items

- Why are you listing every conceivable weapon? Like... Why? We really only need to know about the good ones.

- You aren't advocating proper use of firearms, launching crossbows, syringe spears (which are awesome, by the way), et cetera. Namely, you're advocating actually reloading the buggers in combat. Don't. Fire and forget.

- Shotguns are amazing on a Grenadier. It turns your alchemist fire, tanglefoot bag, whatever into cone-based AoE.

- Use Burst Jars to get your Int*2 to damage using a hybridization funnel.

- Re: Ghast Retch Flask. I'm pretty sure that rules for stacking sickening don't actually exist. There's a single mention of it in an example used by the Monk.

- Shard Gels are splash weapons.

- Unstable Accelerant really shouldn't be purple. Its rarely worth the GP at any level where its damage matters, especially en-masse.

- Fungal Stun Vial should really be blue. It remains relevant into your teens, and Stun is a no-joke condition.

- There are more good uses for alchemical items for you to find.

Every weapon? You sure about that, because theres A TON I left off. The only red ones on there are as warnings away from it.

For firearms, do you really have enough cash to pick up more than one? The default assumption is that they're nearly 1k a pop, so I wouldn't want more than one. And I may be paranoid, but I don't like dropping my weapons, although I'll admit that I could list it as a way to use them.

I will admit that I love scatter as a capability, especially with Explosive Missile, as it could possibly hit everything in the cone for bomb damage (as discussed earlier in the thread.)

The Burst Jar thing seems fun, not sure how to include it, but god bless the HF.

Maybe that was a 3.5 thing I'm remembering. Most conditions like that seem to stack, like the rules for stacking with fear. I'll have to ask about that later.

I wasn't sure about this since they don't cause splash damage, it feels like a grey area for me.

I myself still like it, although I could see dropping it to blue, as being able to boost damage for a cheap GP cost still seems very valid.

I really was on the cusp of making this blue, so yeah, that's happening.

This last thing...well that just sounds inspirational. I did find out that I left out a rather useful weapon blanche, so I'll have to add that later too.

Quote:

Magic Items

- +1 Bane Arrows are a common thing, and awesome.

- I believe Conductive Stacks with Explosive Missile, but I may be wrong. Explosive Missile + Conductive + Coated Acid Flask remain a viable source of damage into your teens, at least.

- Designating, notably, does not stack with Pheremone arrows.

- Endless Ammunition is useful in the hedge case where you are using a Double Crossbow late-game.

They are, but I feel like that's archery common knowledge so it's not really too important to put in.

Yeah, they should stack. I actually enjoyed this idea myself. The idea of going for a Raining Arrow filled with a hybrid Acid/Alkali (if your GM allows substitutions into the Raining Arrow, which they really should) with Alchemical weaponing another Acid/Alkali and Explosive Missile with Conductive is one hell of a way to start a party.

It's okay, but I still think it's overcosted for what it does.

Thanks for the input man, a lot of the suggestions have been taken into consideration and placed into the guide.

Silver Crusade

Leisner wrote:

A very minor thing, but a Preservationist gets Summon Nature's Ally, not Summon Monster. The latter is what your C.Hyde build has.

Edit: Nice guide BTW, very useful info, and one of the few that is actually updated!

Check the feats, Auric took Planar Preservationist, which allowed it to get Summon Monster instead.

And thanks, I'm trying to keep on top of everything while I do my new guide.


N. Jolly wrote:
Yeah, it seems you didn't get that the first option was being rated for a non specific alchemist. I'll admit that's partially my fault, and now I've put a little blurb in the beginning that states how the ratings are working, as not everyone wants to play either Hyde or a bomber.

Like me. I like the idea of playing an Alchemist more than I like the idea of playing a mad bomber or a Hyde, so I'm looking at the first color instead of the other two. This part wasn't confusing for me at all.

Joesi wrote:
Yes, definitely. They just might not be as optimally built. Realize that this guide is more or less a powergaming guide, not a guide on how to make a cool role playing character.

But there's still a difference between a cool roleplaying character that quickly becomes boring because he's no good at what he's supposed to be good at, and a cool roleplaying character that does what you expect him to.

For that reason, I would still love to see some advice on that included in the guide. And this doesn't have to be limited to class abilities and feats. Maybe there's stuff that anyone can do, but that's more conceptually appropriate for an alchemist, and there are some ways to get more out of that. Alchemist's Fire is the obvious one (anyone can throw it, but Alchemists get a bonus) and did get mentioned in the guide, but there might be more. A better treatment of Craft (Alchemy) would make sense. Is there any other alchemical, mechanical or academic stuff that would fit right in? Are there any rules for demolitions (bigger but much slower than bombs)? Is there other stuff I can make that nobody ever does, but actually starts to make sense with an Alchemist?

Quote:
You could have an alchemist/herbalist monk or an alchemist wizard/summoner, alchemist gunslinger, or other —in my opinion— interesting scenarios. That said, those are classes, not just builds (and you could run a specific build while staying pure alchemist).

I'm leaning towards pure alchemist or maybe just one level of gunslinger for the mechanical edge (and the gunpowder!).

Quote:
Build-wise, there's the poison option, since poison is the most effective in the hands of an alchemist. There's also the ability to buff/heal, which would rely on using infused extracts (and/or troll styptics), but it's not much different than what a cleric/wizard/other can do without having to spend a feat (except the ability to buff people with personal spells like false life or shield).

I think the way I see an alchemist is as a jack-of-all-trades in these things. He should be able to use bombs and poison if he wants to, but they should not be his primary focus. I would really like making alchemical items (acid, alchemical fire, etc) to be viable, but I'm not sure it is; it takes a very long time compared to true magic items.

Crafting real magic items might also make some sort of sense, but I'm not sure an alchemist can actually do that, considering he's not really actually a spellcaster. Some engineering related stuff would be cool, but are there any rules for that? Is it even practical in an adventuring setting?

Quote:
I guess you could use a gun, but I personally wouldn't do it and some GMs might be adverse to it because I and/or they have an aversion to having guns in fantasy (magical medieval) settings. That may not apply to all players/GMs though. Alchemist does seem to be a person that makes the most sense to be wielding a gun though. Aside from that, guns are just expensive too— 11 gold per shot (around the price of +1 arrows I think?), as...

Obviously guns require GM fiat, and just having read the gun rules, it's pretty clear you have to be a Gunslinger to use them unless you're playing with Guns Everywhere. But a single level of Gunslinger would not be out of place, would it? That class sounds like they're tinkerers and inventors, and that might fit reasonably well with an alchemist.


Alchemist [Grendier] does make nice use out of their alchemical items.

Add the HF with that, along with alchemical weapon--as the guides suggests--and you are doing some nice damage.

Choose the weapon to use with it too, including natural weapons from Feral mutagen!

I really appreciate the Alchemist class thanks to N.Jolly's guide!

There are sooooo many ways to go!


N. Jolly wrote:
Leisner wrote:

A very minor thing, but a Preservationist gets Summon Nature's Ally, not Summon Monster. The latter is what your C.Hyde build has.

Edit: Nice guide BTW, very useful info, and one of the few that is actually updated!

Check the feats, Auric took Planar Preservationist, which allowed it to get Summon Monster instead.

And thanks, I'm trying to keep on top of everything while I do my new guide.

I didn't even know there was a feat that did that (I haven't played an alchemist yet, but it is on my short list). Nice.

See, the guide does help :D .

Silver Crusade

mcv wrote:

I only just took up an interest in Alchemists, and I'm wondering if it's possible to play an effective alchemist that's neither a Mad Bomber nor a Mr Hide. I'm imagining alchemists as more academic, scholarly types, and while they no doubt know how to make bombs, it's not their primary hammer in search of a nail. A brainier alchemist. Maybe one that uses guns and other high tech stuff? Is that possible while still being effective?

I think the main thing I'm missing in this guide is a discussion on play styles. A listing on abilities that are good or bad is useful, but how should I use them? How do I turn those abilities into a coherent whole? And what alchemisty things can I do that aren't specifically tied to these abilities?

That's actually a request I got in the other thread, and honestly the best advice I can give is the Substitute Rogue. The race I talked about for this was the Vanara, as it gets all knowledge skills as class skills, which really gives you the chance to play more of an academic. I wish technology was a larger part of the game, and maybe once Iron Gods comes out this will be more of an option.

For a guide, all I can really give are build styles as playstyles are more subjective. I can leave you with a build, but how you use it is really up for discussion. I mean hell, I could tell you all about the tiefling alchemist I'm running and how much I love her, as well as how I run her IC, but it's not really relevant to building a better character.

Playstyles are something you yourself need to develop, and a guide like this really isn't going to help.

Although you have given me a bit of an idea, possibly for a mini guide on how to add flavor to your character. Right now I'm still involved in my Barbarian guide, but this might be a fun side project to pick up later.

Silver Crusade

joesi wrote:
I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree with this, and think it should be at least blue. Overall I think the difference between blue and purple is somewhat negligible. This is an excellent way to boost damage in the toughest combats without even spending an additional action

This actually made me think of how I decided to include purple into the guide at all. Most guides have a pretty solid Red/Orange/Green/Blue set up, but for me some blue options were just good enough to feel the need to cause extra attention to them. It's like Power Attack for a Fighter; it's such a good option that making it just blue doesn't seem good enough.

If I had to scale things, it'd probably be

Red: 0%-20%
Orange: 21%-45%
Green: 46%-70%
Blue: 71%-95%
Purple: 96%-100%

Purple is really just for things I don't think should be ignored, things that are absolutely vital if taken. That's why I try not to use it a lot, really just to draw attention to things I particularly find valuable.


You're splitting hairs by turning some if the blues to purple, and IMO adding unneeded complexity.

Silver Crusade

Ciaran Barnes wrote:
You're splitting hairs by turning some if the blues to purple, and IMO adding unneeded complexity.

As I stated, it's only to call attention to things that I thought were truly important. I don't go using it like crazy, it's just more like a sign that says "I REALLY like this, check it out!"

As someone who does this myself, they're almost a waypoint for powergamers to say "THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED!" which I myself generally appreciate seeing. The guide's skewed to my perspective, which is why I try to keep the purple to a minimum.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Fantastic guide! A lot of work and thought went into creating it and I really appreciate all of your effort. I am starting a Alchemist and the guide has helped me immensely.

Thank you.


Yeah I think the occasional purple is nice.

People are probably smart enough for themselves to figure out if it's something that fits their build GREAT, or something that's just good for them.

Making them purple points to them "hey, consider this, at the least; it's really really good"

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Hi,

I had a quick question about the following Chirurgeon's (Archetype)ability:

Infused Curative: At 2nd level, a chirurgeon's extracts of cure spells automatically act as infusions, and can be used by non-alchemists. When a chirurgeon prepares his extracts, he may choose to render any or all of his infused curatives inert and prepare other extracts to replace them (unlike infusions, which continue to occupy the alchemist's daily extract slots until consumed or used). This ability replaces poison use.

Therefore, if I have this right, at 1st level, if I make two Cure Light Wounds extracts (I only can make two for my level), and give them to party members, but I then make two additional extracts, the two Cure Light Wounds extracts become inert.

However, can I later, in the same day, re-activate those inert extracts? I somehow don't think so, and therefore, I don't know how good this ability is if this is the case. You will probably need all of your extract slots for combat, and therefore, all of your curing extracts you prepared in advance will then become inert.

Thanks for any help in clarifying this issue.


Cyrus007 wrote:

Hi,

I had a quick question about the following Chirurgeon's (Archetype)ability:

Infused Curative: At 2nd level, a chirurgeon's extracts of cure spells automatically act as infusions, and can be used by non-alchemists. When a chirurgeon prepares his extracts, he may choose to render any or all of his infused curatives inert and prepare other extracts to replace them (unlike infusions, which continue to occupy the alchemist's daily extract slots until consumed or used). This ability replaces poison use.

Therefore, if I have this right, at 1st level, if I make two Cure Light Wounds extracts (I only can make two for my level), and give them to party members, but I then make two additional extracts, the two Cure Light Wounds extracts become inert.

However, can I later, in the same day, re-activate those inert extracts? I somehow don't think so, and therefore, I don't know how good this ability is if this is the case. You will probably need all of your extract slots for combat, and therefore, all of your curing extracts you prepared in advance will then become inert.

Thanks for any help in clarifying this issue.

Yeah, that's pretty much how it works.

The intent isn't to give you more extracts/day, just to give you cure extracts you can use on other people.


i need some help for my alchemist that i will bring to table at the next session, my last character was a zen archer and for many months i was the most useless man in the team, since we encontered only plants, constructs and skeletons :( , so next i want to play a generalist alchemist, so i always have something to do.

guidelines are: lv 4,1590 mo, pb 15 points,2 +1 increments instead of 1 at 4° 8°12° ecc, no alternate class traits, no background traits (gm reward us with these while playing), manual allowed: core, advanced guide and all ultimates, other official material found in the srd need the approval of the master.
Feral mutagen is banned, also is elven curved blade
My idea is to use bombs for nasty debuff, and in case i run out of them i just pop out a sword a mutagen.

that is what i have thinked so far

Class: alchemist
Archetype Grenadier(for the weapon prof and precise bomb )
Human
15 pb
str 15 +1 lv 16
cos 12
dex 14
int 13 +2 human +1 lv
cha 9
wis 9
at 4th +1 to str and int

feats: Power attack (so i got the melee part covered) 2 extra discovery (master let me take extra discovery at lv 1),weapon prof(greatsword or falchion)

discovery: infusion, precise bomb(free discovery), frost bomb, smoke bomb,stink bombs

i have hard time deciding on equipment, i have 1590 mo to spend, i can buy alchemical items at 1/3 of their price

its a good start or i should build him in a different way? i thinked of going the dex route but since we are low of money i dont know when i will be able to buy a agile weapon

EDIT: can some one explain me this alchemist lab

Artificer's Lab, Portable:

Artificer's Lab, Portable
The portable artificer's lab contains everything needed to create magic items, though many of the tools and implements are of only the most basic type. This lab allows the artificer to spend 4 hours crafting each night while out adventuring, and net 3 hours' worth of work (instead of 2). However, because the tools are all designed to fulfill multiple functions and the portable lab lacks the space and quiet that provide ideal circumstances for creating magic items, the skill check to complete a magic item that had any of its work done using a portable lab takes a –5 penalty

it allow me to craft every day out adventuring? if i make day by day checks, how much hours of the day i use for the crafting?

Silver Crusade

alexander leah wrote:

i need some help for my alchemist that i will bring to table at the next session, my last character was a zen archer and for many months i was the most useless man in the team, since we encontered only plants, constructs and skeletons :( , so next i want to play a generalist alchemist, so i always have something to do.

guidelines are: lv 4,1590 mo, pb 15 points,2 +1 increments instead of 1 at 4° 8°12° ecc, no alternate class traits, no background traits (gm reward us with these while playing), manual allowed: core, advanced guide and all ultimates, other official material found in the srd need the approval of the master.
Feral mutagen is banned, also is elven curved blade
My idea is to use bombs for nasty debuff, and in case i run out of them i just pop out a sword a mutagen.

Okay, a few things hear are confusing. Do you mean 1,590 gold? What do you mean by no alternative class traits; do you mean race traits? That ban list is pretty weird...


yeah, its 1590 gold, i kept my native language acronym for error, and with alternate class traits i meaned the Favored Class Options (god, my english is awfull), i can take only a bonus hit point or skill point when i take a level in my favored class.
He said that he may concede feral mutagen, but the 2 claws attack will be done at -5


Talk about noobing a great class option!

You could still make a really effective ranged Alchemist, concentrating on bombs.

Also Grenadier would allow an efective melee or ranged with Alchemical weapon feature.

The guide points the way...


yeah i know that i can be a really good ranged class, but since my last character was full ranged this time i want to try to be more of a switch hitter type.

good news is that my master has unbanned feral mutagen, my idea is to swap power attack with extra discovey feral mutagen and weapon prof(greatsword) with weapon prof(bow), this way options are: 7 bombs/day with some nasty debuff, ranged alchemical weapon and pop out a mutagen and start mauling if all comes to melee.

what do you think?

Silver Crusade

alexander leah wrote:

yeah i know that i can be a really good ranged class, but since my last character was full ranged this time i want to try to be more of a switch hitter type.

good news is that my master has unbanned feral mutagen, my idea is to swap power attack with extra discovey feral mutagen and weapon prof(greatsword) with weapon prof(bow), this way options are: 7 bombs/day with some nasty debuff, ranged alchemical weapon and pop out a mutagen and start mauling if all comes to melee.

what do you think?

Okay, probably the first and most important thing...can you be a lizard folk? Thanks to the trait restriction, I can't get you a full natural attack line up (Tiefling with Maw or Claws, going with claws and Adopted:Tusked), so a lizardfolk would REALLY help your natural attack routine. As for money, since you're that low, you should just spend it all on different alchemical items. I'd say Acid is your best friend, since it's cheap and always useful, especially with Alchemical Weapon.

For stats, there's no reason your Charisma shouldn't be a 7, that's points left on the table. Use one of them to push your Wisdom to a 10, and the other two to move your Intelligence to a 14 to start. Honestly if your secondary attacks (claws) are swinging at a -5, they're basically useless, which is why I suggest Lizardfolk. Even something with just claws would be better. Tengu is another option that'll get you both claws and a bite if it's allowed, but Lizardfolk are...just beautiful.

I'd take HP for your favored class bonus, and keep bombs as your preferred style of discovery. You'll probably be starting most encounters with them. And I'd suggest taking your Mutagen before you think you're going to be in combat, as that duration really makes it the kind of thing you can abuse. Consider getting an adaptive Longbow just to make sure you can abuse the Strength bonus from your Mutagen, and when you can try to pick up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, if only because of the value those have to ranged combat, especially since you'll be needing them for bomb throwing.


the master has decided to let me have full use of feral mugan since i will not go to the beastmorph/vivisection route, so all attacks at full bab.
i will stay human because of my background and yeah, i can dump cha to 7, but i dont really like roleplay character with so low cha

Silver Crusade

alexander leah wrote:

the master has decided to let me have full use of feral mugan since i will not go to the beastmorph/vivisection route, so all attacks at full bab.

i will stay human because of my background and yeah, i can dump cha to 7, but i dont really like roleplay character with so low cha

Yeah, Grenadier is still your best way. Although if you want to go crazy, start with the B. Hyde Build (Drake Exle), throw on two Boot Blades, a Dwarven Boulder Helmet (bonus points if you can make it into a Helm of the Mammoth Lords to give you a gore attack too), a Barbazu Beard, Armor Spikes, and two Thorn Bracers (they state they'll let you make an offhand attack if you aren't wielding a weapon or shield in them, which you're not with your clawed hands.) I think since we're using the daggers, that'd make that helmet/-2 claw/-2 claw/-2 gore/ -2 bite/-2 boot/-2 boot/-2 dagger/-2 dagger/-2 beard/-2 spikes/-2 bracer/-2 bracer. It'd be even better if you could get the Feral Mutagen claws on your Vestigial Arms to get two more claw attacks.

Aside from common sense, nothing makes this build illegal. From the rulings, if you took Two Weapon Fighting, you could take Double Slice next, and get full strength bonus on all your attacks, which at this point numbers about...13. As long as you didn't have to touch the ground to avoid the penalty of the boot blades, you would still provoke from the Barbazu Beard. Just make sure to have Quick Learner and Adopted: Arms Master and you won't be taking a non proficiency penalty with any of those weapons too.

Consider that with pounce (assuming you weren't on the ground so that you could charge with the boot blades out), and you'd just splatter anything that was caught in front of you. It's crazy and stupid and impossible, but damn if it isn't the most cool insane power gamey idea that this thread has given me.

Edit: Actually, according to the text of Multiweapon Fighting, you could use it to meet the prereqs for Double Slice and all the other TWF feats. That's just wonderful. But what you can do is take Improved Unarmed Strike or take a level in Monk to get it, and then take Two Weapon Fighting, and add 2 unarmed strikes to that, since it could be from knees/elbows/etc. That'd put us up to 15 attacks.

Silver Crusade

Due to new FAQ rulings on vestigial limb, I'm going to have to change the B. Hyde build, as well as having to change my rating of confusion bomb since it now has a save and is considerably worse. I'm not at a point where I can alter it now since my comp died, but I'll try to get to it soon. Barb guide is still on the way, and as always, comments about this guide are welcomed.


I'm playing a goblin madbomber but at lv 5th i nave only 10 bombs, 4 from int + 5 from classe level. Manu time i become useless in the dungeon because i go out of my bombs. So i'm thinking to change something for doing somethimg after hte bomba end.

So i'm thiking to pick the beastmorph archetype AMD something Luke weapon finesse and piranha strike for melee.

My stata are:
Str 12 - 2 racial = 10
Dex 16 + 4 racial = 20
Cos 14
Int 17 + 1 4th lv = 18
Sag 14
Che 10 - 2 racial = 8

I can change everything except the race and the ability scores


Chelios wrote:

I'm playing a goblin madbomber but at lv 5th i nave only 10 bombs, 4 from int + 5 from classe level. Manu time i become useless in the dungeon because i go out of my bombs. So i'm thinking to change something for doing somethimg after hte bomba end.

So i'm thiking to pick the beastmorph archetype AMD something Luke weapon finesse and piranha strike for melee.

My stata are:
Str 12 - 2 racial = 10
Dex 16 + 4 racial = 20
Cos 14
Int 17 + 1 4th lv = 18
Sag 14
Che 10 - 2 racial = 8

I can change everything except the race and the ability scores

Given the dex (and lack of strength) I'd say it might be tough to go into a close in fighter unless you have a bit of gold. It will run you 20k in gold to pick up a Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (+1 enhancement, +1 Agile weapon quality). With Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike (and mutagen into dex) you'll have +10 to hit and +10 damage assuming you pick up Improved Unarmed Strike (I don't believe the mandibles from beastmorph grant a natural attack).

You probably lack the cash to go that route right now. If your party has two (or more) line fighters already I'd probably go the ranged route with Grenadier.

Dunno....what sort of equipment do you have and how accessible is selling\buying new magic items in your campaign?


Grue wrote:

Given the dex (and lack of strength) I'd say it might be tough to go into a close in fighter unless you have a bit of gold. It will run you 20k in gold to pick up a Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (+1 enhancement, +1 Agile weapon quality). With Weapon Finesse and Piranha Strike (and mutagen into dex) you'll have +10 to hit and +10 damage assuming you pick up Improved Unarmed Strike (I don't believe the mandibles from beastmorph grant a natural attack).

You probably lack the cash to go that route right now. If your party has two (or more) line fighters already I'd probably go the ranged route with Grenadier.

Dunno....what sort of equipment do you have and how accessible is selling\buying new magic items in your campaign?

I have 3500 gold, but i can improve equip in the campaign.

I don't like the granadier, i love using brew potion. I can pick hunter's eye for the bow. I can go with preservatiost, can my tumor fmiliar/monkey use my infusion-extract?

The Exchange

So they FAQ'd confusion bomb and made it pointless? Awesome.

Silver Crusade

Rushley son of Halum wrote:
So they FAQ'd confusion bomb and made it pointless? Awesome.

Yeah, Confusion bomb is now basically worthless. Whatever, there was enough good bombs without this.

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this in forever, updated a few rankings (Learned some stuff about Tumor Familiars that makes them quite boss), and have to update some other things real quick.

Silver Crusade

Went through, updated a few things, added most of the relevant content from Blood of Night, fixed Harrison Zahhak, and basically did a once over of the whole thing, including being turned onto Brew Fleshcrafter Poison, which is freaking insane.

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays all, and hope this guide helps you out!

Silver Crusade

I'd rarely update the guide for one trait, but this is a trait that literally invalidates everything the Rogue could ever hope to compete with.

Trap Finder

If you need me, I'll be laughing at Rogue advocates.


Alchemist's ah so fun

I didn't see it last I looked but a note for poison loving alchemists. Grippli's favored class bonus upps DC and gives craft alchemy a boost for poisons. You can get it as a human with that heritage (if ya don't mind a bit of frog blood :p) It's pretty nifty for those who want to use poisons. Though not amazing.


That is a campaign trait, so kind of limited, but yeah lol

I disagree that Visionary researcher is Red. Poison is awful, and if you don't care about being a grenadier it is useful to share your mutagen. Also, your mutagen is still normal strength if you make it for yourself, so it doesn't seem that bad?

I would rate it Black probably

Silver Crusade

Zwordsman wrote:

Alchemist's ah so fun

I didn't see it last I looked but a note for poison loving alchemists. Grippli's favored class bonus upps DC and gives craft alchemy a boost for poisons. You can get it as a human with that heritage (if ya don't mind a bit of frog blood :p) It's pretty nifty for those who want to use poisons. Though not amazing.

Racial poisons are rarely worth the effort to keep them up. I'd rather work with real poisons than some lame racial poison.

CWheezy wrote:
That is a campaign trait, so kind of limited, but yeah lol

While I see the logic here, it's a trait, and it's not specific to anything. It's literally "I grew up near tombs now I'm good at tomb traps." It's no Finding Haleen, that's for sure. The fact that there's a trait that says "no Rogue is special" is enough. Can you really imagine banning this trait or limit to let someone play an actually functioning character instead of a crappy Rogue? At that point, it just feels vindictive. How much more do you need to see as a GM before realizing Paizo is done with the Rogue?

CWheezy wrote:

I disagree that Visionary researcher is Red. Poison is awful, and if you don't care about being a grenadier it is useful to share your mutagen. Also, your mutagen is still normal strength if you make it for yourself, so it doesn't seem that bad?

I would rate it Black probably

Okay, the archetype isn't TERRIBLE like Blazing Torchbearer, but the problem is (And I did state this in the review of it)

CTPS wrote:
...and even giving up Poison Use locks you out of a lot of far better archetypes.

Visionary Researcher gives you so little that it's basically the base class, so the red rating it has is for the opportunity cost of not being able to go for something better and a relatively weak ability (sharing your mutagen at 1/2 strength is not valuable at all), making it a poor choice for optimization. I could probably only go up to orange, as you're purposefully making yourself weaker to share a weak buff as well as some minor (not even scaling) acid resistance.

Actually, I just looked at it, and it states:

Visionary Researcher wrote:
The experimental mutagen works just like a standard mutagen, except the natural armor bonus and the alchemical bonus to the ability score are half normal (+1 natural armor bonus and +2 to one ability score). The experimental mutagen has no risk of nauseating a creature who drinks it. The researcher decides when he creates the mutagen if it is a standard mutagen (which gives no benefit if another creature drinks it) or an experimental mutagen (which does); there is no difference in the cost, time to create, or any other aspect of the mutagen. If the researcher has discoveries or other abilities that alter or increase the benefits of the mutagen, these apply to the experimental mutagen (though the drinker only gets half the numerical bonus of the mutagen).

So they either make a normal one (which they should), or a gimped one, which means if the Alchemist themselves take it, it's still gimped. That's not a lot of benefit at all.


it's not a racial poison.
It's a racial bonus to any crafted poison.

So, if I made drow poison, the DC is automatically raised by that many points. I don't remember off hand if it was 1/3rd dc or 1/4dc a level but it raises it a pretty decent amount. (I'm pretty sure it was 1/3rd though)
it would make stacking inhale a bit less costy, and make injury ones better.

Granted it's likely better to get more bombs, more bomb damage, hp or skill points but if your a poison lover like me, this thing is epic.

Silver Crusade

Zwordsman wrote:

it's not a racial poison.

It's a racial bonus to any crafted poison.

So, if I made drow poison, the DC is automatically raised by that many points. I don't remember off hand if it was 1/3rd dc or 1/4dc a level but it raises it a pretty decent amount. (I'm pretty sure it was 1/3rd though)
it would make stacking inhale a bit less costy, and make injury ones better.

Granted it's likely better to get more bombs, more bomb damage, hp or skill points but if your a poison lover like me, this thing is epic.

Okay, I did think it was something about racial poisons, but it's just saving you a little cash. Sadly poison isn't really viable except as inhaled...sad day. I'm shocked there's no more focused poison archetype, like the best poisoner you can get is the default Alchemist.


Yeah I'm really sad since I'm a poison lover.

Though it'll save a little bit on stacking inhaled poison, doubtful it's worth the money you save since it'd be like 3 -4 drow poison. not really worth a bomb.

I made an amusingly effective at mid levels build with alchemist and that Prc guild poisoner class but really not any good poison users.

Unless you've got a nicer gm who takes the wording of that racial bonus "created" not "crafted" and allows it to apply to any way you make it.(racial poison, poisoner's jacket etc). It's pretty unlikely.


Yeah, that is why I said black. It doesn't make you better, but it doesn't really make you worse

Silver Crusade

Zwordsman wrote:

Yeah I'm really sad since I'm a poison lover.

Though it'll save a little bit on stacking inhaled poison, doubtful it's worth the money you save since it'd be like 3 -4 drow poison. not really worth a bomb.

I made an amusingly effective at mid levels build with alchemist and that Prc guild poisoner class but really not any good poison users.

Unless you've got a nicer gm who takes the wording of that racial bonus "created" not "crafted" and allows it to apply to any way you make it.(racial poison, poisoner's jacket etc). It's pretty unlikely.

The problem is how poison exist, it's like disease in that it's a better NPC weapon than a PC tool. Aside from the Drow Knockout (instant effect), the others are really just great hit and run tactics, since you either save or take moderate damage that only matters if you're poisoned for a long time.

Most enemies don't last long enough for poison to matter (it's not as bad as 3.5), since most combat last 3-5 rounds, and assuming you're poisoning on T1 every time and your opponents CONTINUE to fail their saves (rare considering how good most monsters fort saves are), you're not doing appreciable damage to their stats. I wouldn't use any of them, even the Drow Knockout, as it's either an instant win or wasted money.

It's why I didn't put a lot of time into Poisons, since they're not an optimal choice, even if they are iconic.

Silver Crusade

CWheezy wrote:
Yeah, that is why I said black. It doesn't make you better, but it doesn't really make you worse

I'd argue it makes you worse in that you can't take another archetype, which as my guide shows, are ways to easily increase your power. The locking out is what makes it a terrible option to me. I can't really suggest it to others even as black because I can rate it, and it's just a poor choice. Again, I might make it orange since it doesn't actively make you worse, but it is a lacking option.

Silver Crusade

Added a new update to the guide espousing the value of Tumor Familiars and the necessary evil of Infusion.

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