Min-Maxing Cure Spells

[EvilPaladin]

Hello, fellow pathfinders!

The thread Am I the only one who like healing? got me thinking about the line of cure spells. More specifically, I was wondering, how hard would it be to try and min-max the Cure line of spells. I was thinking a Cleric with the healing domain[free Empower Spell], and Magical Lineage and Wayang SpellHunter in your favorite Cure spell [I was thinking Serious, since it comes online about the same time the optimized fireball flingers do], and then looking into other feats that could be applied for free. Oracle of life might also be good, since they have the whole quickened for free revelation [though so few times per day :-{ ]. Any thoughts?

[bigrig107]

Spell Focus (conjuration) and Spell Specialization will help at early levels.
It adds two caster levels to the chosen spell, and you can change the selected spell every odd level.

At 1st, with Human, your Cure Lights do 1d8+3.
That's huge.

[revaar]

If playing in a home game, there are two achievement feats that can boost your curing: Healer's Touch and Lifting Hands of God. The Life Oracle in my home game uses Healer's Touch, and he heals crazy amounts of damage. The only downside is that you basically have to cut yourself off from dealing Hit Point damage, but as a Full Caster, I'm sure you can find more controller-y ways to contribute when you are not healing.

[Finlanderboy]

There is a an obedience that gives you +1 hp healed per die rolled
Alzea I think.

[Set]

The Jade Regent Players Guide has a Campaign Trait called 'Rescued - Koya' that can grant you a +2 to cure spells that heal hit point damage.

[Paulicus]

There's Fey Foundling, which can help your party combined with shield other.

[EvilPaladin]

So, taking from the advice given, and some research of my own,

Here is a rough build:

Human Cleric of ? 1-12
Str7
Dex12
Con12
Int10
Wis18
Cha18[Levels Here]

Feats:
1:Spell Focus[Conjuration]
1:Fey Foundling
3:Selective Channeling
5:Spell Specialization[CSW/CCW/Breath of Life/Heal]
7:Additional Traits
9:Reach Spell
11:Quick Channel

Traits:
Rescued-Koya
Exalted of the Society
Magical Lineage[Cure Serious Wounds]
Wayang Spellhunter[Cure Serious Wounds]

Special Abilities:
Rebuke Death 7/day
Healer's Blessing
Unspecified Domain Power
Unspecified Domain Power
Channel Energy 8[+]/day 1d6-6d6
Spells

Spells Prepared:

Orisons

• Stabilize
• Light
• Detect Magic
• Read Magic

1st level

• Cure Light Wounds[domain]
• Bless
• Sanctuary
• Protection from Evilx2
• Remove Fear

2nd level

• Cure Moderate Wounds[domain]
• Shield Otherx2
• Grace
• Lesser Restorationx2

3rd level

• Cure Serious Wounds[Reach, domain]
• Prayerx2
• Magic Circle Against Evil
• Magic Vestiment
• Reach Cure Serious Wounds

4th level

• Cure Critical Wounds[domain]
• Blessing of Fervorx2
• Freedom of Movementx2

5th level

• Breath of Life[domain]
• Wall of Stone
• Breath of Life
• Break Enchantment

6th

Heal[domain]

Blade Barrier

Heal[/list]

Spells aren't set, other then domain spells, but remember to spontaneously cast Cure spells when needed. Unfortunately, Healer's Blessing and Spontaneous Casting don't apply to Heal or BoL, so those were prepared more.

Healing per level w/spells:
1:CLW 1d8+3
2:^^^ 1d8+4
3:CMW 2d8+5
4:^^^ 2d8+6
5:CSW 3d8+9
6:CSW 4d8+10
7:CCW 6d8+11
8:CCW 6d8+12
9:BoL 5d8+13; CCW6d8+11
10:BoL 5d8+14; CCW6d8+12
11:Heal 130; CCW6d8+13
12:Heal 140; CCW6d8+14

From 9th level on, CSW will be prepared w/Reach Spell each time, letting you heal at range. You could go for CCW, but I prefer CSW due to the lower level, which lets you cast it more times a day. Shield Other+Fey Foundling is a common tactic, and if you prefer, a bit of re-arranging feats could probably land Quick Channel at 5th, but I don't think its necessary. Offensive spells don't really work with this build, so you only really need to cast a buff at the start of the fight, and Channel Energy is a pretty good use of a standard action, as it heals everyone, doesn't provoke, and doubles up on the healing w/Shield Other. Also saves you spells and you should have a bunch per day, considering charisma boosts through magic items and levels.

I chose to stay away from the Achievement feats, because at the moment this is mostly theorycraft, and its hard to tell when you will meet the requirement with them, otherwise totally would go for Healer's Touch ASAP. Also stayed away from the Evangelist because I can't access Inner Sea Gods at the moment, and can't find info on "Alzea" online anywhere.

Also, the spells are prepared with my limited knowledge of the higher level spells, so I'm probably missing something

It only goes up to level 12 as this allows modification for PFS and [from these forums] it seems most games either end or fall apart around this level. I myself have seen many-a-game disintegrate in these levels, and a new one rise and take its place.

Hows it look? Anything huge I'm missing?

[EvilPaladin]

EvilPaladin wrote:

So, taking from the advice given, and some research of my own, ** spoiler omitted **...

So, just realized that I need to shift stats around in order to allow a feat [forgot the requirement for Spell Specialization], and make an adjustment [started the stats as Aasimar then changed to human but forgot to lower WIS]. Change stats to

Str7
Dex10
Con12
Int13[4th level here, rest CHA]
Wis16[buy a +2 Headband before 9th level]
Cha18

[Thomas Long 175]

What about sneak attack and the orc bloodline?

Technically positive energy is still damage and each sneak attack die will give you another +1. It requires an attack roll though most people forgo it since the person allows themselves to be touched but that doesn't change the fact if you can sneak attack them you can add the dice involved there.

Heck, since your fists are technically naturally nonlethal and bludgeoning you can attack with them instead for an additional +2 per die by for an additional 1d6+3 for every sneak attack die you add to your cure spells.

Of course no GM would likely allow it but it should technically float by the rules as positive and negative energy are still damage.

Edit: Likely a bard/Rogue/arcane trickster for this so you can keep scaling your cures and sneak attacks.

[wraithstrike]

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

What about sneak attack and the orc bloodline?

Technically positive energy is still damage and each sneak attack die will give you another +1. It requires an attack roll though most people forgo it since the person allows themselves to be touched but that doesn't change the fact if you can sneak attack them you can add the dice involved there.

Heck, since your fists are technically naturally nonlethal and bludgeoning you can attack with them instead for an additional +2 per die by for an additional 1d6+3 for every sneak attack die you add to your cure spells.

Of course no GM would likely allow it but it should technically float by the rules as positive and negative energy are still damage.

Edit: Likely a bard/Rogue/arcane trickster for this so you can keep scaling your cures and sneak attacks.

No positive energy is not damage, not even technically, unless used to attack undead(or any other creature harmed by it). Otherwise it is healing, which is the opposite of damage. That is why you can't crit on a cure spell when you heal someone, but you can when you attack them.

[Thomas Long 175]

wraithstrike wrote:

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

What about sneak attack and the orc bloodline?

Technically positive energy is still damage and each sneak attack die will give you another +1. It requires an attack roll though most people forgo it since the person allows themselves to be touched but that doesn't change the fact if you can sneak attack them you can add the dice involved there.

Heck, since your fists are technically naturally nonlethal and bludgeoning you can attack with them instead for an additional +2 per die by for an additional 1d6+3 for every sneak attack die you add to your cure spells.

Of course no GM would likely allow it but it should technically float by the rules as positive and negative energy are still damage.

Edit: Likely a bard/Rogue/arcane trickster for this so you can keep scaling your cures and sneak attacks.

No positive energy is not damage, not even technically, unless used to attack undead(or any other creature harmed by it). Otherwise it is healing, which is the opposite of damage. That is why you can't crit on a cure spell when you heal someone, but you can when you attack them.

You can crit on someone if you bothered to use an attack roll, but we usually don't because that would allow a chance to miss as well.

That's like saying fire damage is no longer damage because its used on a construct. It's still damage. Negative energy is still damage even if you use it on undead. It doesn't suddenly morph into something else.

It would be like saying you empowered and maximized your fireball which you were a dual blooded sorcerer for and threw your fireball onto the enemy iron golem but because fire became healing all of the bonuses to your roll no longer counted. Completely ridiculous argument to say the least.

Edit: So your scorching ray arcane trickster with 5d6 sneak attack die and 12d6 total scorching ray throws down 17d6+34. You're saying quite literally with that statement, that since fire heals the iron construct, he will gain life as if only 12d6 of that had gone off and 5d6 + 34 just evaporates.

How would you do that? Tell the player to roll only 12d6? Subtract average of 5d6+34? Have the player roll 5d6 and subtract that plus 34? Its nonsense. Your ability is just as powerful whether you meant to heal or harm something.

[wraithstrike]

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

You can crit on someone if you bothered to use an attack roll, but we usually don't because that would allow a chance to miss as well.

No. You don't roll an attack roll because you are not attacking and melee touch and melee touch attack spells are called out as not being the same. Cure spells use to heal are melee touch. When use to attack they use the melee touch attack, and deal damage. Damage subtracts hit points. Healing adds to hit points. That is the difference so healing is NOT damage.

PRD wrote:

Damage reduces a target's current hit points.

prd wrote:

Healing

After taking damage, you can recover hit points through natural healing or through magical healing. In any case, you can't regain hit points past your full normal hit point total.

As you can see healing is not damage, which means the use of the spell determines if it is a healing or damage affect.

So going to your construct example you may have intended to harm the construct, but you actually healed him assuming you failed your knowledge check.

As for that 5d6 that is a GM call. I would just have my players roll the dice separately in case they run into a monster that is immune to sneak attack. That eliminates the problem altogether, and only slightly slows the game down.

[Thomas Long 175]

wraithstrike wrote:

Thomas Long 175 wrote:

You can crit on someone if you bothered to use an attack roll, but we usually don't because that would allow a chance to miss as well.

No. You don't roll an attack roll because you are not attacking and melee touch and melee touch attack spells are called out as not being the same. Cure spells use to heal are melee touch. When use to attack they use the melee touch attack, and deal damage. Damage subtracts hit points. Healing adds to hit points. That is the difference so healing is NOT damage.

PRD wrote:

Damage reduces a target's current hit points.

prd wrote:

Healing

After taking damage, you can recover hit points through natural healing or through magical healing. In any case, you can't regain hit points past your full normal hit point total.

As you can see healing is not damage, which means the use of the spell determines if it is a healing or damage affect.

So going to your construct example you may have intended to harm the construct, but you actually healed him assuming you failed your knowledge check.

As for that 5d6 that is a GM call. I would just have my players roll the dice separately in case they run into a monster that is immune to sneak attack. That eliminates the problem altogether, and only slightly slows the game down.

Lol its not GM call its blatantly still in there. 5d6 + 10 actually because 10 came from the sneak attack die bonuses. Aka "you're unaware of me so you heal more!"

Technically the iron golem can gain the extra as temporary hp as well.

Oh, and as for them calling touch attacks and touching separately.

Cure light wounds

Shocking Grasp

Check the range. Doesn't look like it to me. The only reason it doesn't specify cure light wounds needs an attack roll is because its assumed that you'll be accepting healing spells.

Nothing in there states that healing or damage are actually separate things. Yeah there are separate sections in the prd. That doesn't change that different energy types heal or damage and not one thing changes about them based on who you hit.

[wraithstrike]

Actually since it is not damage by RAW the sneak attack dice don't come into play. I only said it was a GM call because of how annoying it is to track various die.

If you use CLW to attack then it becomes a touch attack. I thought I was clear on that.

As for shocking grasp "Your successful melee touch attack"<--- That is the base intention for the spell. Now of course if the monster is heal by electricity then it still heals, and does not damage.

Energy types don't determine if it is damage or not. The effect of actually damaging or healing does.

My quotes in the other post don't care about intention. They just care about the result. You don't damage and heal all at once. You do one or the other and the rules are clear about which one adds to hit points, and which one subtracts from hit points.

So where is your RAW that damage heals, and healing damages?

[Thomas Long 175]

wraithstrike wrote:

Actually since it is not damage by RAW the sneak attack dice don't come into play. I only said it was a GM call because of how annoying it is to track various die.

If you use CLW to attack then it becomes a touch attack. I thought I was clear on that.

As for shocking grasp "Your successful melee touch attack"<--- That is the base intention for the spell. Now of course if the monster is heal by electricity then it still heals, and does not damage.

Energy types don't determine if it is damage or not. The effect of actually damaging or healing does.

My quotes in the other post don't care about intention. They just care about the result. You don't damage and heal all at once. You do one or the other and the rules are clear about which one adds to hit points, and which one subtracts from hit points.

So where is your RAW that damage heals, and healing damages?

Read iron golem again. For every 3 points of fire damage it would have taken, it heals instead.

As for raw, positive energy heals living creatures. Or are you arguing that? Are you in fact arguing the asinine statement that positive energy can harm living beings.

The only reason it calls out damage and healing is to tell people what happens when you heal and what happens when you damage. It does not state they are different things. Ever.

Edit: Better yet, I'll post it for you.

iron golem healing wrote:

A magical attack that deals fire damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. An iron golem gets no saving throw against fire effects.

2nd Edit: One final postulation before bed. Since we know you cannot harm a living creature with positive energy, you always attack it, and since you just admitted that your bonuses still come into play even if you attempt to damage your enemy, what stops me from "attacking" one of my fellow pc's?

What's the difference between me "attacking" my ally with a positive energy spell and me just touching him? There isn't one. So if I flanked with an enemy and touch attacked an ally with a cure spell "intending to do damage" I should still get my sneak attack dice. And all bonuses involved.

[wraithstrike]

That is nice, but that just means would be damage is converted to healing. My point still stands that healing is not damage because the book says so.

At the end of the day that fire either is damaging(removing hp) or healing(adding hp). It is not doing both.

[Thomas Long 175]

wraithstrike wrote:

That is nice, but that just means would be damage is converted to healing. My point still stands that healing is not damage because the book says so.

At the end of the day that fire either is damaging(removing hp) or healing(adding hp). It is not doing both.

Book does not say so. I fail my knowledge check against humans. I attempt to damage them with cure light wounds. I gain all of my attack benefits against them. I mistake a human being for an undead and try to damage him with it.

It's still an energy type, sneak attack automatically converts to the energy type of whatever you're using it with. If you honestly think you can argue that it just disappears because "you're healing instead of damaging" even though you're attempting to damage and should still gain sneak attack dice you're just being ridiculous.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

perhaps I could add a bit of help onto this, or at least my 2 cents

First off negative energy affinity means some living creatures do take damage from positive energy and heal from negative.

As for positive energy always healing normal living creatures there are two rule references that show otherwise.

The best of the two is
""channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures.""

Since a clerics channel energy makes you choose to ether damage undead or heal living it shows clearly that when dealing positive energy damage normal living creatures are simply immune to positive energy damage, and when healing living creatures undead are immune to healing from positive energy.

At it's core the energy subtly changes based on if you are trying to use it to damage or heal. Though you can certainly try to resist any form of energy that your not immune to, and if you don't know what the spell is you might actually try to resist that healing spell.

Secondly, on the plane of positive energy you actually take positive energy damage based on basically having to much positive energy infused into you and overloading what a normal person can handle, This energy always damages, it don't heal sometimes and damage other. Thus I would interpret any positive energy spell capable of dealing damage to normal living creatures as a focused type of positive energy and thus it becomes damaging and unable to heal.

In the case of the golem, the golem is actually Immune to the Fire damage however has a ability that drains the energy of the fire in order to fuel it's own healing power, thus it isn't actually healing from fire damage it is healing based on the amount of energy(damage) that the fire ability contained. though really thematically it uses the heat of the flames to basically reforge itself but all the same it clearly states that it Heals a amount equal to 1 per 3 it Would have taken Thus it converts part of the damage to healing and is completely immune to the rest.

In this case the more damage the fire spell would have dealt the more effective the golems natural ability is as the more fire energy is readily available for it to convert and use. Rules/Raw wise damage Never heals, though damage can sometimes be Converted into Healing but this changes it so that it stops being damage and unless converted back by something else it simply can't harm. Best example of this is a creature that has negative energy affinity does not take damage if you try to heal them with Cure light wounds nor does it heal if you try to harm it with Inflict Light damage, though this is by Raw. House rule wise we remove the distinction between healing and damage and simply regard the energy itself, however this is very much a house rule and isn't the Raw on the subject, by raw healing is healing damage is damage unless something converts one to the other they are completely separate.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

""It's still an energy type, sneak attack automatically converts to the energy type of whatever you're using it with. If you honestly think you can argue that it just disappears because "you're healing instead of damaging" even though you're attempting to damage and should still gain sneak attack dice you're just being ridiculous.""

Actually by Raw if you are trying to deal damage your right it don't disappear the entire effect however becomes unable to heal. If you cast Cure light wounds on a friend who is desguized as a undead and your attempting to hurt it then the energy type is attuned to disrupting the flow of negative energy which thus allows it to damage undead.

However if you try to heal a undead who you think is just a badly damaged person then again the spell doesn't work as your trying to infuse them with positive energy which there body is no longer capable of accepting and as such the spell fizzles.

Basically though Both Positive energy; positive energy used to heal and positive energy used to damage are by Raw different energy. This is in large purely a effect of mechanical balancing in order to prevent damage stacking in order to instead heal and vice versa

If you have a zillion healing feats and effects you can't use them to heal a undead to death unless such effects specifically mention being used in such a fation, this at it's core is again balancing mechanics to help retain game balance and functionality, They simply try to ration it out best as they can

[Thomas Long 175]

STARGAZER_DRAGON wrote:

perhaps I could add a bit of help onto this, or at least my 2 cents

First off negative energy affinity means some living creatures do take damage from positive energy and heal from negative.

As for positive energy always healing normal living creatures there are two rule references that show otherwise.

The best of the two is
""channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures.""

Since a clerics channel energy makes you choose to ether damage undead or heal living it shows clearly that when dealing positive energy damage normal living creatures are simply immune to positive energy damage, and when healing living creatures undead are immune to healing from positive energy.

At it's core the energy subtly changes based on if you are trying to use it to damage or heal. Though you can certainly try to resist any form of energy that your not immune to, and if you don't know what the spell is you might actually try to resist that healing spell.

Secondly, on the plane of positive energy you actually take positive energy damage based on basically having to much positive energy infused into you and overloading what a normal person can handle, This energy always damages, it don't heal sometimes and damage other. Thus I would interpret any positive energy spell capable of dealing damage to normal living creatures as a focused type of positive energy and thus it becomes damaging and unable to heal.

In the case of the golem, the golem is actually Immune to the Fire damage however has a ability that drains the energy of the fire in order to fuel it's own healing power, thus it isn't actually healing from fire damage it is healing based on the amount of energy(damage) that the fire ability contained. though really thematically it uses the heat of the flames to basically reforge itself but all the same it clearly states that it Heals a amount equal to 1 per 3 it Would have taken Thus it converts part of the damage to healing and is completely...

Actually all the cleric states is that you have to choose whom you're targetting. Undead or living. Unlike fireball its not "everyone in this area." It won't auto effect constructs, elementals, planars, etc. You have to choose and have the power to affect who you want to affect.

Let me counter with the death throes ability of the positive energy elemental. Specifically calls out that it damages negative energy beings upon death and heals positive energy beings in a burst radius, including beings from material plane.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

actually the wording is
""A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures or to heal living creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures or to heal undead creatures.""

They have to take a special feat of selective channeling in order to not effect all valid targets in the area

""Selective Channeling
You can choose whom to affect when you channel energy.

Prerequisite: Cha 13, channel energy class feature.

Benefit: When you channel energy, you can choose a number of targets in the area up to your Charisma modifier. These targets are not affected by your channeled energy.

Normal: All targets in a 30-foot burst are affected when you channel energy. You can only choose whether or not you are affected.""

as for the death throes ability of the positive energy elemental, it just implies that it sends off both healing and damaging positive energy but since creatures are only effected by one of the other then they only get the one that effects them

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

Like if a cleric swift channels and normal channels first dealing damage to undead and second healing living

Again I point out that all Valid targets (all targets capable of being healed by positive/negative when used to heal and all those able to be damaged by positive/negative when damaging within the area are effected unless selective channeling is used.

If you are standing next to a enemy living target a living ally and a undead monster and use the healing power both the living ally and the living enemy are healed however the undead is not effected, now if you use the channel to hurt the undead the undead takes damage but the living do not heal as it specifically states

""can choose to deal damage to undead creatures OR to heal living creatures.""

""Normal: All targets in a 30-foot burst are affected when you channel energy.""

""Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st""

[Thomas Long 175]

STARGAZER_DRAGON wrote:

Like if a cleric swift channels and normal channels first dealing damage to undead and second healing living

Again I point out that all Valid targets (all targets capable of being healed by positive/negative when used to heal and all those able to be damaged by positive/negative when damaging within the area are effected unless selective channeling is used.

If you are standing next to a enemy living target a living ally and a undead monster and use the healing power both the living ally and the living enemy are healed however the undead is not effected, now if you use the channel to hurt the undead the undead takes damage but the living do not heal as it specifically states

""can choose to deal damage to undead creatures OR to heal living creatures.""

""Normal: All targets in a 30-foot burst are affected when you channel energy.""

""Channeling energy causes a burst that affects all creatures of one type (either undead or living) in a 30-foot radius centered on the cleric. The amount of damage dealt or healed is equal to 1d6 points of damage plus 1d6 points of damage for every two cleric levels beyond 1st""

That still doesn't change the fact that you're selecting your targets when channeling. You may be selecting by type rather than individual, and there may be a feat that allows you to become more specific than that, but you're still selecting your targets with that.

Btw you never responded to positive elemental death throes which does heal and damage at the same time.

[Corvino]

Over in the "Advanced Classes: are they awesome?" thread Deadmanwalking pointed out that the new Skald class in the ACG can hand out the barbarian rage power Lesser Celestial Totem to the whole party. This gives you a nice 1HP/caster level bonus to all healing for as long as the Skald keeps up Raging Song.

Given that it'll effect all willing party members in range with +caster level HP for every healing spell, it can be big boost to any multi-target heal. So Life Link, Channeling and Mass Cure spells all get a scaling boost. You will need to convince the rest of the party it's better than Greater Beast Totem for everyone though.

[Corvino]

As a Thought Exercise:

How much would a level 10 Life Oracle heal in a single turn without overusing resources on a typical party including a Skald with Lesser Celestial Totem?

Let's assume 3 other party members and an Animal Companion/Eidolon. The Life Oracle doesn't gain the benefit of Raging Song as they still have to cast. The Life Oracle has Selective Channeling and Quick Channel feats, and the Life Link and Channel Energy revelations.

4 Life Links: 4x(15) healed, no action cost. Up to 20 damage to the Life Oracle.

Quick Channel: 4x(5d6 + 10) + 5d6 healed, costs 1 move action & 2 channels.

Cure Light Wounds, Mass: 4x(d8+20) + (d8+10) healed, costs 1 standard action & 1 level 5 spell.

Total healed: 220 to 380, average 300.

Total Cost: 2 channels, 1 level 5 spell.

And this is without going nova and using the Combat Healer Revelation to get an additional Mass Cure Light Wounds in. A large amount of this is likely to be lost as overhealing unless the party has just eaten a nasty AoE effect. This does make the Spirit Boost revelation very powerful though. The Skald with Lesser Celestial Totem gives great benefits to multiple small heals instead of few big heals. Very interesting...

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

You can argue a zillion different ways and by searching enough you can find Books that don't follow the core (or Pizio published) books. I point out that positive energy elemental is ((Necromancer Games, Inc., published and distributed by Frog God Games; Author Scott Greene)) and as such might not follow Raw exactly, as different companies and people like yourself and even myself might have a different view of the way positive energy should work. But it really don't change the core points or that damage by raw is always damage and healing is always healing even if some powers and abilities can convert one to the other it.

Back on topic alchemist with healing bomb and some o the other discoveries that buff healing makes for a very wicked healer also.

[Kudaku]

Alchemy healing bomber sounds interesting. I'll see what I can do with that. :-)

Edit: Hmm... Healing Bombs have pretty good output (1d6/2 levels + intelligence modifier and splash heal) for 1st level extracts and at level 8 you can throw quite a few of them with Fast Bombs, but you're likely to run out of extracts before you run out of bomb uses as alchemists tend to be pretty tight on extract slots. You could always burn CLW potions instead of extracts I guess.

Remote + Healing Bomb has some potential, but Remote Bombs can only be delayed by 1 minute/level so your timing is pretty tight.

Implant Bomb + Healing Bomb + Remote Bomb is hilarious! You're basically surgically implanting a remote controlled pacemaker.

I'm not tremendously familiar with the Alchemist, so I'm sure there are ways to tweak this higher but here's what I came up with:

Level 10 Mindchemist throwing healing bombs, assuming Cognatogen and Haste is active:
5D6+10 (intelligence) +5 (half-orc) healing x4 (base attack x2, Haste, Rapid Shot) = an average of 130 HP healed on target per round, with an additional 60 HP healed to anyone around him.

Discoveries needed: Healing Bomb, Precise Bombs.

This also makes for a fairly good bomber build since it's not particularly feat intensive. The only real investment is the healing bomb discovery.

I'm not sure what the action is to activate a remote bomb - if it's a free action then it might well be viable to implant remote healing bombs
and detonate them in times where extra healing is called for.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

you can also take rocket bomb I think it is in order to fire the bomb from a bow, then make the arrow a nonlethal arrow giving you a great range on the bomb, plus there are feats to avoid effecting targets, then other discoveries to gain fast healing and give fast healing and a TON of other discoveries that allow for powerful healing, plus of course you can hand out healing potions (cure extracts) with a discovery that allows others to use your extracts.

We have one in my current game and he can swap between powerful dpr and great healing

[K177Y C47]

Dot for coolness

[K177Y C47]

As for the whole "do healing spells count as touch attacks or not?"

How would you rule the whole Dhampir thing?

Lets say you have a Dhampir who has been disguising as a human in the party. Lets say the poor guy gets pretty banged up and the cleric runs to his side and casts CSW (because why not?) on him. Would you rule that he would need to make an attack roll? Because that would seem very weird....

[Kudaku]

I'd say that the Dhampir has a choice of whether or not to declare himself a friend or opponent to the touch "attack". If he declares himself as an opponent the cleric would have to make a touch attack (and the cleric might realize something is off if the Dhampir actively tries to avoid his touch), otherwise I'd say the healing would go as normal.

I'd also note that the Dhampir should only have the option to avoid the spell if he has realized the cleric is using a cure spell - either by divining intent or making a spellcraft check.

[EvilPaladin]

As a GM I'd ask the Dhampir if he wanted to be subjected to it, and if not, I'd say the Touch Attack and Save were necessary, along with a Sense Motive or Spellcraft check to tell what the cleric was doing. Or, were it an NPC, I'd give it an amulet of Life Channel.

Back on topic, hmm Alchemist Healer. That seems rather interesting. The remote controlled healing bomb seems incredible. However, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think you get the bomb's normal damage or +Int to damage with it.

Healing Bomb wrote:

When the alchemist creates a bomb, he can choose to have it heal damage instead of dealing it. Creating a healing bomb requires the alchemist to expend an infused extract (Advanced Player’s Guide 31) or potion containing a cure spell.A creature that takes a direct hit from a healing bomb is healed as if she had imbibed the infusion or potion used to create the bomb. Creatures in the splash radius are healed for the minimum amount of damage the cure spell is capable of healing. A healing bomb damages undead instead of healing them.

Still, depending on the action, the Remote Implant Healing bombs could be a great way to do action-efficient combat healing.

Corvino wrote:

How much would a level 10 Life Oracle heal in a single turn without overusing resources on a typical party including a Skald with Lesser Celestial Totem?

Let's assume 3 other party members and an Animal Companion/Eidolon. The Life Oracle doesn't gain the benefit of Raging Song as they still have to cast. The Life Oracle has Selective Channeling and Quick Channel feats, and the Life Link and Channel Energy revelations.

4 Life Links: 4x(15) healed, no action cost. Up to 20 damage to the Life Oracle.

Quick Channel: 4x(5d6 + 10) + 5d6 healed, costs 1 move action & 2 channels.

Cure Light Wounds, Mass: 4x(d8+20) + (d8+10) healed, costs 1 standard action & 1 level 5 spell.

Total healed: 220 to 380, average 300.

Total Cost: 2 channels, 1 level 5 spell.

And this is without going nova and using the Combat Healer Revelation to get an additional Mass Cure Light Wounds in. A large amount of this is likely to be lost as overhealing unless the party has just eaten a nasty AoE effect. This does make the Spirit Boost revelation very powerful though. The Skald with Lesser Celestial Totem gives great benefits to multiple small heals instead of few big heals. Very interesting...

That seems incredible. And, it gives casters a reason to take the Raging Song from the Skald [beyond Gish not casting spells for a round].

Wow, I didn't think there were so many different ways to change the Cures Spells, great work guys!

[Kudaku]

EvilPaladin wrote:

Back on topic, hmm Alchemist Healer. That seems rather interesting. The remote controlled healing bomb seems incredible. However, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think you get the bomb's normal damage or +Int to damage with it.

*quote omitted for brevity*

Still, depending on the action, the Remote Implant Healing bombs could be a great way to do action-efficient combat healing.

Damn! That's what I get for reading the healing bomb description at 2 AM - I assumed it worked more or less like other bomb variants, but required a cure extract as a material component. You are absolutely correct.

And near as I can tell, that makes the healer alchemist kind of dead in the water. Cure spells already struggle to keep up with damage on a 9th level spell progression so the alchemist's slower spell progression works against him, and he's burning both bomb uses and his high level extracts to provide sub-par healing.

He still has some potential as a nova healer (10th level alchemist throwing 1x CCW bomb + 3 CSW bombs = an average of 98 healing to one target with 50ish healing to anyone around him) but his healing output is directly tied to his high level extracts, which the alchemist gets very few of.

More thoughts on the "pacemaker":

Implant Bomb specifically states that you can use any bomb-affecting discovery on the implanted bomb as normal, so healing bomb is definitely acceptable.

Delayed Bomb restricts you to one delayed bomb at a time, so you'd only be able to do it to one target.

I can't find the required action for Remote Bomb detonation anywhere. :(

A 16th level alchemist could implant a Heal bomb and potentially detonate it as a free action. That's pretty cool until you realize that the cleric gets Mass Heal on the next level. :-(

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

at lvl 6 breath weapon bomb mixed with healing bomb would mean all targets in 15' cone would be effected by the healing bomb as if it has been a direct hit, this is pretty strong, 1D8+lvl+int healing to all targets in 15' cone - would be kind of easy to get multiple party members.
Though the +int is arguable ether way, as it is technically still considered a splash weapon however healing bomb says it heals as if they had drank the extract.

and healing touch grant the spontaneous healing ability to others (basically fast healing 5)

Elixir of life at lvl 16 is also great as then even if the healer dies he can be brought back with it.

Plus being able to hand elixirs out means that others can cure themselves allowing him to spread his healing abilities a bit further, also has easier time making potions so he can brew cure spells easily and fast enough to be viable.

healing bomb+ fast Bomb + rapid shot+ two weapon fighting+ improved two weapon fighting + bab 6 or more = 5 bombs per round = 5D8+25 to primary target + 30 to secondary targets in a single round. granted you will run out of extracts fast. Extra spells feat (grants 2 additional spells per day of any level below your highest level) could help relieve some as can extra bomb power. when you move this to second lvl extract it becomes 10D8+30 and 40 to secondary targets at only lvl 6

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

all bombs are possibly +int depending on DM read of if the healing bomb counts as a splash weapon thus adding Int

- two weapon fighting -Rapid shot - Breath Weapon bomb - imp two weapon fighting

LV Healing bomb effect Targets
1 -1d8+1 single target+splash
4 -1D8+4 OR 2D8+4 single target+splash
6 -1D8+5, 2D8+6, or 3d8+6 All targets in 15' cone
8 -5D8+25,10D8+40,15D8+40,20D8+40 single target+splash

Thats still pretty good healing, however it does def have a bit of a hard time comparing to the cleric, but pally and cleric I think have a monopoly on the strongest healing. However the ability to deal instead of heal should count for something and it is definitely a different build

[EvilPaladin]

STARGAZER_DRAGON wrote:

at lvl 6 breath weapon bomb mixed with healing bomb would mean all targets in 15' cone would be effected by the healing bomb as if it has been a direct hit, this is pretty strong, 1D8+lvl+int healing to all targets in 15' cone - would be kind of easy to get multiple party members.

Actually, Breath Weapon Bomb and Healing Bomb can't be combined, as they both have * next to them. Still, the Fast-Rapid-TWF Bombs cure thing is a neat little nova trick.

On a different note, considering Corvino's post about Celestial Totem Skalds, I made a bit of a

Rough Skald Healer:

Human Skald 3
Str16
Dex12
Con14
Int13
Wis10
Cha14

Feats:
1:Spell Focus[Conjuration]
1:Spell Specialization[Cure Light Wounds]
1:Scribe Scroll
3:Power Attack

Traits:
Maestro of the Society
Rescued-Koya

Class Features:
Raging Song 10/day
Bardic Knowledge+1
Well Versed
Rage Powers
-Lesser Celestial Totem

Attacks:
Masterwork Glaive +5[1d10+4]
-Power Attack +4[1d10+7
-Raging +6[1d10+6]
--Power Attack +5[1d10+9]

Spells Known
Cantrips:
Light
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Prestidigitation
Mage Hand
Mending
1st level:
Cure Light Wounds [1d8+7]
Timely Inspiration
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall

Spells per Day
1:4

Well, he's not the best melee, but he's definitely a strong character, especially considering he can multiply damage and In-Combat healing, along with a Glaive for flanking[free buff], and being a good Skill Monkey [8/level ranks and free knowledge checks]. His Cure Light Wounds can, if using Raging Song, heal 1d8+12, which means that his average CLW can erase a fighter's greatsword swing [2d6+9, average of 16, v. 1d8+12, average of 16.5].

Kudaku wrote:

I can't find the required action for Remote Bomb detonation anywhere. :(

Sadly, I believe this means it is a Standard. Which pretty much puts primary healer alchemist behind by quite a bit. Still, a backup "Nova" healer alchemist, with Spontaneous Healing Touch for preemptive heals and the potential for a nova 4-cures in a round is a very nice thing to have. Especially if the above Skald in the party.

Too bad Breath of Life[from Chirurgeon] doesn't work with Healing Bombs. That would make the Pacemaker a 1-up that is much cheaper then the normal 5k raise dead. Totally going to ask if my GM will allow it with my current Chirurgeon/Cryptbreaker though.

[Kudaku]

EvilPaladin wrote:

Too bad Breath of Life[from Chirurgeon] doesn't work with Healing Bombs. That would make the Pacemaker a 1-up that is much cheaper then the normal 5k raise dead. Totally going to ask if my GM will allow it with my current Chirurgeon/Cryptbreaker though.

If we could get a FAQ ruling saying that Breath of Life qualifies for Healing Bombs then Power over Death would finally make sense... That's a really elegant solution to the Chirurgeon problem actually.

[Devilkiller]

Due to my fascination with having pets, mounts, and servants I’ll suggest using an Improved Familiar with the valet archetype instead of Reach Spell. Besides being able to move before and after delivering your touch spells the familiar could potentially use wands and help out with other action economy problems.

[Wiggz]

EvilPaladin wrote:

Hello, fellow pathfinders!

The thread Am I the only one who like healing? got me thinking about the line of cure spells. More specifically, I was wondering, how hard would it be to try and min-max the Cure line of spells. I was thinking a Cleric with the healing domain[free Empower Spell], and Magical Lineage and Wayang SpellHunter in your favorite Cure spell [I was thinking Serious, since it comes online about the same time the optimized fireball flingers do], and then looking into other feats that could be applied for free. Oracle of life might also be good, since they have the whole quickened for free revelation [though so few times per day :-{ ]. Any thoughts?

Divine Interference is a must for such a character - it's an instant crit eraser.

Best healer we ever had was actually our Tiefling Paladin with Fey Foundling and a level dip in Life Oracle for the bond revelation. That favored class bonus is killer.

[SmiloDan]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/rite-publishing/general-feats ---3rd-party---rite-publishing/mystical-healer

Mystic Healer is my new favorite feat. +1d4 at level 1, +1d6 at level 4, +2d6 at level 7, +3d6 at level 10, and +4d6 at level 13.

Sure, it's 3rd party, but it is amazing. It scales with level, but not as fast as damaging spells and effects.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

On the topic of maximizing healer

Aasimar with (+2 cha Aasimar ability is allowed to select)
Neutral alignment

Vitalist 1 (collective healing -lets you transfer healing from creatures in the collective to others in the collective including potions,spells,channel, even fast healing.)

Cleric 1 (just for the extra channels used primarily between combat)
Paladin 2
Divine channeler 2+ - faster channel progression then cleric

feats
Healing Focus (+2 Healing),
Improved Channel(+1d6 to channel power)
Mystic Healer (+1d4+ Healing)
Improved Channel (+2 DC)--Prereq to psionic chanel
Psionic Chanel (spent 1 Power point to increase channel by 1D6)
Selective Chanel (don't wanna heal the wrong people)
Synergistic Training (allows you to keep the caster level up target vitalist as first and divine channel as second)
Extra Channel and channel altering feats
Interrupting channel energy (use channel as interrupt action for emergency uses)

So a break down at lvl 6

Using heroic NPC stats
Cha 20 (15 +2 racial +2 aasimar ability +1 lvl 4 bonus attribute)
wis 16 (14 +2 Aasimar race)

Cleric LV 1 - Few cure spells - 8 Chanel energy 1D4+3D6+2 cost 1 Power point)

Vitalist Lv 2 -Collective Healing + Power points)A few powers

Divine channeler LV 3-6 - Few cure spells - 8 Chanel energy 6D6+2 cost 1 Power point)

Then if you get multiple people in the channel energy even the ranged people who are not hurt you can transfer there healed energy to those who need it effectively greatly increasing there healing power.

best of all 1 vitalist and you can spread the heals that anyone does to those who need it, front line fighter getting hurt, have the archer down a cure potion and transfer it to the fighter.

2 party members sitting in the back use a channel energy and heal one up to 6D6+2 X2 targets to transfer healing from for a total of 16-74 damage healed, Still not enough blow 2 more channels and next turns move action and as immediate action do it again. collective healing is prob the biggest win when combined with AOE healing less I missread something somewhere.

Paladin 7-8 8 Lay on hands 1D4+2D6+2 as a swift action, + save bonuses.

Again vitalist allows you to transfer the healing thus lay on hands can be used to give out that extra healing as needed. Out of combat or on the side you can use cure wands and the low lvl spells to buff and add small heals.

I am pretty sure this has to be one of the strongest heal comboes

[EvilPaladin]

STARGAZER_DRAGON wrote:

On the topic of maximizing healer

Aasimar with (+2 cha Aasimar ability is allowed to select)
Neutral alignment

Vitalist 1 (collective healing -lets you transfer healing from creatures in the collective to others in the collective including potions,spells,channel, even fast healing.)

Cleric 1 (just for the extra channels used primarily between combat)
Paladin 2
Divine channeler 2+ - faster channel progression then cleric

feats
Healing Focus (+2 Healing),
Improved Channel(+1d6 to channel power)
Mystic Healer (+1d4+ Healing)
Improved Channel (+2 DC)--Prereq to psionic chanel
Psionic Chanel (spent 1 Power point to increase channel by 1D6)
Selective Chanel (don't wanna heal the wrong people)
Synergistic Training (allows you to keep the caster level up target vitalist as first and divine channel as second)
Extra Channel and channel altering feats
Interrupting channel energy (use channel as interrupt action for emergency uses)

So a break down at lvl 6

Using heroic NPC stats
Cha 20 (15 +2 racial +2 aasimar ability +1 lvl 4 bonus attribute)
wis 16 (14 +2 Aasimar race)

Cleric LV 1 - Few cure spells - 8 Chanel energy 1D4+3D6+2 cost 1 Power point)

Vitalist Lv 2 -Collective Healing + Power points)A few powers

Divine channeler LV 3-6 - Few cure spells - 8 Chanel energy 6D6+2 cost 1 Power point)

Then if you get multiple people in the channel energy even the ranged people who are not hurt you can transfer there healed energy to those who need it effectively greatly increasing there healing power.

best of all 1 vitalist and you can spread the heals that anyone does to those who need it, front line fighter getting hurt, have the archer down a cure potion and transfer it to the fighter.

2 party members sitting in the back use a channel energy and heal one up to 6D6+2 X2 targets to transfer healing from for a total of 16-74 damage healed, Still not enough blow 2 more channels and next turns move action and as immediate action do it again. collective healing is prob...

While this is certainly a very impressive healer character, I do have 2 problems with it.

1:It uses a fair bit of 3rd party. Which is all well and good, but with this thread I was looking more for some 1st party tricks, because 3pp isn't available to a fair deal of people.

2:It is kinda drifting away from the Cure x Wounds spell line, which was the original purpose of this thread. The main thing that inspired me to create this thread was This post, namely, the bit about how Cure x wounds spells don't have a Min-Max Me button. The alchemist thing was drifting a little bit away, but I figured it still would count because you still are using Cure x Wounds extracts.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

I used the stuff from my hero lab didn't really check what was 3party, but yea it was more f a massive channel focused heal.

Cure X spells really wand slinger archetype from gunslinger fits the bill a bit with the ability to recharge a wand up to 50 charges and craft wands and use other wands at class lvl, allows wands to grant a TON of healing ability and still leaves you with good BAB and HP ect. Best of all it don't use guns at all so no problems if firearms don't exist. Though if you over use the main wand it will take a few days to fully recharge but a good solid start of 50 charges of any spell that is 1/2 your lvl from any spell list and not restricted by normal max of lvl 5 spells.

Might also be third party not sure but least that's only 1 3rd party thing lol

[EvilPaladin]

Bit more on the alchemist healer, but you can make Sticky Healing bombs to make those Cure X Wounds potions heal another round later.

On a different note, do any Metamagic feats beyond Quicken, Maximize and Empower actually boost the cure spells? I know intensify doesn't, because that specifies dice, and as Devilkiller said, a Valet familiar is better than Reach Spell[and 2 feats can net anyone who wants it], so that leaves...what?

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

there are some feats out there that reduce/negate meta magic costs but I forget there name and have no clue if there core or 3rd party, have just seen them in hero lab before

[EvilPaladin]

Yeah, there are 2 different 1st party traits that reduce metamagic costs Here. And then there is Spell Perfection at higher levels. The only issue is that even with those, there still aren't many options to add to them in the way of feats.

Also, for campaigns that aren't Jade Regeant[the campaign Rescued-Koya comes from], there is Blessed Touch for a slightly lower benefit that applies to Channels/Lay on Hands as well as Cure spells, and is non-campaign.

[Kudaku]

I doubt it's what the writer had in mind when he made it, but Consecrate Spell lets you maximize healing spells at +2 spell level instead of +3 as long as you're healing creatures with the evil subtype. Could be a fun feat for an aasimar healer villain with some outsider goons. :)

[FuelDrop]

Let us not forget that the Holy Vindicator prestige class gets some nifty bonuses to cure spells cast on themselves. If they started off as clerics with the healing domain, then switched over to HV at 7th level, then by 15th level all cure spells he casts on himself are empowered and maximized.

Heck, by 10th level his cure spells are empowered by healing domain and empowered when he casts it on himself.

EDIT: Combine with an ally casting Healing Thief for extra win.

[EvilPaladin]

Consecrate Spell looks good for an Evil-campaign or BBEG. I suppose it would work with getting the 2 traits also, so you could theoretically have free Empowered Maximized CSW at 6th level on an Evil Cleric for 1d8+25[including Spell Spec and Blessed Touch trait].

Holy Vindicator looks interesting as well. Though I think Life Oracle entry might be better. Main reason is that, although you don't get negative energy channeling, which is a loss, you get Combat Medic for free Quickened Maximized Spells on yourself[at the cost of 2 slots]. Also, on the topic of Life Oracles, it seems like you could get some decent[ish] healing with just CLW. With Revelations, you can have no cap on the spell, not provoke when casting it, and potentially "Over-heal" allies. Add in free Quicken and you might have yourself a nice swift-action way to burn your spell slots.

With the upcoming Advanced Class Guide, any ideas as to what might be in there for healing? I believe the Playtest Warpriest and Shaman had some nice healing things. Thoughts?

[Corvino]

It's worth noting that you only get 1 use of Combat Medic per day at level 7, then an additional use at 11, 15 and 19.

The "Enhanced cures" revelation which removes the +level to healing limit only really adds much to CLW and CMW (Which are capped at +5 and +10). It feels like a trap revelation: it only has a major effect on your weakest heals, and only kicks in at mid-to-high levels.