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Anyone in Tim's goblin campaign bugger off now or massive spoilers!

TDLR: below the bolded part is something I would like help making better for my players, and good writing tips would be appreciated.

I'm running a campaign that started with B4 goblins (with custom goblins, not the premade ones), carried through We be goblins and We be goblins too, and then will carry into wrath of the righteous. Yes, EVIL goblin heroes will be playing the pinnacle roll in wrath. I just love the image of MYTHIC goblins, and them being evil but everyone being forced to deal with them because they are the chosen ones just tickles me.

I've written the following trying to explain why the goblisn would actually choose to go this route. It mostly comes down to a) the promise of power and b) demons aren't great for goblins either, they'll just enslave and kill them.

I'm not a super duper writer by any stretch. Looking for advice on any tweaks to make this moment stronger as I've seen some amazing writers here.

In case it matters, Justin (mentioned below) is am Infernal bloodrager so his devil blood would hate demons. and Sam as mentioned below is a warpreist whos god again isn't really down with demons.

Oh, and at the end of We be goblins, they returned to the camp and found it destroyed as described in We be goblins too but instead of by a random human attack, it was the abyssal forces. So this was already hinted at that the Storm Lord was trying to kill them.

The below happens immediately at the end of We be goblins too (we should finish this on Sunday):
--------------------------------------------------------------------
You return to the Birdcrunchers camp triumphantly, having slain the ogres and saved the goblins. For the heroes, the whole chieftain thing was exciting at first. They had a tribe of minions who fawned over them and brought them whatever they needed whenever they needed it. However, after a month, it started to get boring. The chieftains had to stay home all the time and watch over the tribe. They had to be big and mean so that other tribes wouldn’t bother them. They had to make sure the goblins had enough to eat. They had to organize raids that they didn’t get to go on. They had to settle arguments about exactly whose jar of leeches was stolen and eaten. After 3 months, it started to seem like being a chief was more trouble than it was worth.

You started leaving as a group, something you shouldn’t do as chiefs, because you just felt something more should be happening.

One day, on returning from a mission to another tribe that USED to be in the area (hehehe, stoopid gobos) you felt it again. The sentries you set up were missing. It was to quiet. Your instincts screamed that something was wrong. Regardless, you felt compelled to keep going, like you didn’t have control.

You came to the main camp and find this waiting for you.

(insert picture of the Storm Lord here)

This red skinned monster is 18ft tall, his forearms are bigger than a goblin. He is sounded in a fiery aurora. He wields a whip of flame in one hand and a vorpral sword in his other hand.

All the goblins of the tribe are on the ground in front of it, cowering in insane fear. You notice offhand that Wise Mummy Spittleharsh is the only goblin that had been killed.

“Ah, the great heroes return. FOOLS! How could anyone prophesize that puny goblins would not only kill me, the great Khorramzadeh, the Storm King, but that you would somehow kill me twice?!? “ Noticing you looking at Wise Mummy Spittleharsh he barks a laugh “Ah yes, this goblin actually had the spine to try and fight back, unlike the rest of these sheep” at this he lashes out with a whip, drags a goblin into his fiery aura where the goblin burns to death in an instant.

“Somehow, you all lived through my last assault on your “village” (he spits the word with disgust)! No more! You’ll watch me destroy each and every one of these puny beings, and then you’ll die, here, now”.

He starts destroying everyone and everything. You are paralyzed with fear, but also feel a deep anger growing inside. Sure, these are filthy git goblins, but they are YOUR filthy git goblins. How dare he! Justin in particular you can feel your blood squirming, telling you to fight this bastard demon. At one point you start moving towards him.

He is initially lost in the slaughter, but then notices you moving and turns to you, with a look of shock on his face. And perhaps a tiny bit of fear ‘YOU DARE!!! COWER WHERE YOU STAND MORTALS” and you all collapse to your knees (although Justin and Sam only collapse to one knee). At this, he just loses his s*%@, slamming his whip and sword around him in an insane fury, slaughter everyone. He then turns to you “and now, you’ll die, and I’ll laugh at the prophecy”.

As he charges, you close your eyes. You can’t help it, the power of him charging at you isn’t something you can process. For a long minute you wait for death, yet nothing happens. You peek open your eye and see this:

(Insert picture of Terendelev here)

A great silver beast is between you and the demon. It’s hundreds of feet long, and shines a brilliant silver colour. You are in awe, and certainly afraid, but nowhere nearly the same level of paralyzing fear as the demon exudes.

“Terendelev, you DARE show up! You know I am the one who will KILL you!” screams the Storm Lord.

“Ah, yes, so you will. But not here! Since you are prophesized to kill me elsewhere, what happens if you kill me here? Or perhaps I KILL YOU here now instead? The point is, you great hulking idiot, is we don’t know. If we fight here and now, neither of us is protected by prophecy. So shall we dance?” says the dragon, Terendelev.

The Storm King snarls in rage, and grips his weapons tightly. “Fine, dragon” he spits out “ Save these so called heroes. Look at them! Puny evil cowering wretches! They will never be a threat to me. I’ll see you soon, and you’ll die there! And then you’ll not be around to get in my way, and I’ll kill them there.” And with that, he teleports away.

The dragon visibly relaxes, and then looks at you 5. It’s face curls up in disgust and you here it mumble to itself “Seriously, Iomedae, these are the heroes??? Ones a freaking cannibal” She goes silent, apparently hearing something, then nod, sighs and turns to speak to you. “You 5 are goblins, but you are special. You have been prophesized to slay the Storm King and lead the 5th crusade to finally closing the WorldWound.

I know I can’t appeal to your sense of Justice and Honor “ at this she smiles wryly, knowing how ridiculous that is “to get you to do this. I don’t even understand how Iomedae expects lawful human armies to be led by evil goblins! However, she says this is exactly what will happen. What I can offer is this “and with that, she says some arcane words and you spiral into visions.

You are assaulted with images. You can’t keep up with them all. You see yourselves gaining power above and beyond any goblin before you, even the great goblin heroes of note, beyond any normal adventurers. MYTHIC power. You see yourselves leading armies of noble humans against armies of vile demons. You see cities falling around you, you see death and despair and hope and anger. It’s a confusing assault of your senses, and your very souls.

When you come too, the dragon is looking at you with almost pity in her eyes. “I know, this is such a burden to lay on you 5. I can’t fathom how this has fallen on you. Perhaps the fact that you are evil yet not demon aligned is an advantage I can’t yet see. Perhaps you will join the enemy and lead us all to our doom. It’s all so fuzzy and unclear.

You can stay here and rule this small corner of this continent, until eventually the WorldWound spits out enough demons that they take over everything and murder or enslave everyone, including you goblins. Or you can come with me, to see if Iomedae’s view of your future is correct.”


I'm GMing a goblin campaign that will run through all the We Be Goblins campaigns, and then plan to pop them into the Wrath of the Righteous. I was wondering if anyone has run this with an evil party - a lot of the path seems to be "Do this because you are good" and that won't work with evil git goblins.

Anyone done this previously with an evil party? My thought is along the lines of "they are the chosen ones, and they are still less bad then the demons, so the good guys HAVE to put up with these evil asshats" and i think that could be really fun to write. But i am rather concerned with it becoming me railroading the little gits where i want them.


I'm running a goblin only campaign, starting this week, and I'm going to run through all 4 of the "We be Goblins" books to start, so this should take the PCs to level 4-5. 4 PC's.

I'd really like to take them mythic after this. Mostly cause mythic goblins :D I like the Wrath of the Righteous path, and would like to make the goblins follow it somewhat, but they are evil so it's pretty hard to adapt that path in a lot of places.

Basically, the main thought I have is that demons are evil enough that even evil git goblins in the right place at the right time could become world saving heroes. I really like the idea of a group of evil stupid goblins becoming these stupid legendary heroes, and probably hating all the attention.

Or alternatively, I was thinking to have them find the emerald spire, kill the goblins on layer 1 and then find out the spire can make them mythic the deeper the delve, thus giving them a reason to do the huge dungeon crawl that is the spire.

I guess I'm just looking for any advise on how to pull off either path, and which path sounds better to you people.


Looked up Thornkeep and the spire, i like both. thanks. I'll look up the rest but as of now im thinking i move them to the top layer of the spire once they hit the end of the goblin missions (bored, look for new adventure, kick these goblins out of their home) and then have them start clearing spire levels as they want.


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Wondering if any of the Pre-made adventure paths/modules are good for a party of evil goblins. I'm going to go through the We be goblins 1-4 series, by which time they should be about level 5, and then i'm looking at another module to pick up. Most of them, as I understand, are more "on rails" and about heroes doing hero stuff.

I'd love for these evil gits to save the world, inadvertently, by getting dragged into big bad things and prevailing, thus saving everyone.

Any suggestions?


Backlash3906 wrote:

So, it finally hit the SRD, so I'd like to ask for advice in optimizing the Firebrand Gunslinger archetype. This is a gunslinger that believes there is one solution to all problems, and it is fire.

What you gain: Non-stacking Cha-based Bombs as an Alchemist of your level minus 4, constantly under the effect of the Explosive Bomb discovery, Cha-based Grit and Cha-increased save DC's for Dragon's Breath alchemical cartridges (at the cost of 1 grit point per round). Direct critical hits with bombs will restore grit, in addition to the usual killing blows and critical hits with firearms. DB cartridges will also scale in damage by 1d6 every 4 levels, starting at level 4. Misfire chances for DB cartridges are also reduced.

What you swap: Deadshot, the Gunslinger's Vital Strike With Better Crit Chances gives way to Big Boom!; for the cost of a daily bomb use and 2 grit points, you can make the following attack:
** spoiler omitted **

What you lose: bonus feats, deadeye, gun training, and the ability to choose a battered firearm other than a dragon
...

You lose all extra feats with this archetype, which means you can't stack with almost any of those. The only one that's valid that i can see is the maverick. Which is actually helpful.

This thing has great fluff and terrible delivery sadly. Really weak, takes away all the good things and gives subpar things back.


Thanks guys lots of good stuff in here. I agree with blur and cloud effects for sure. Haste from exciting the atoms themselves I loving

I'm just playing so don't have to worry about the balancing component - the dm thinks he can handle it.

I will be trying darkness and light, I think it'll work. Half the fun is I really don't know what just can pull off

I think healing will live with water casters but I will be able to stabilize and cure poison as suggested

I did already confirm I could do a grease effect with cold but it lasts less long - 1 round/ level plus concentration.

Keep em coming


I'm playing a custom campaign where magic is elementally controlled i.e. i am a fire caster, so all i can cast is fire related spells. I did already confirm that i can also cast cold aka the absence of heat :)

What are some of the best spell effects that you can think of that could be mimicked with fire?

As an example, i can cast an entropic shield no problem, but can't cast a regular shield spell - i lack the force element. I can cast charm spells and a host of damaging spells of course as well. I beleive i can cast blindness and deafness as well (a blinding burst of fire).

Basically, if i can rationalize it i can cast it. So, help me rationalize :)

The cool news is i can cast from ANY spell list. I'm not limited by divine or arcane.

I'm not so much caring about damaging spells, but control and buff effects that you could rationalize.

i beleive i can rationlize Rage (get the blood boiling), flight (human torch :)), stuff like that. A little less sure about stuff like haste and longstrider.

Cheers,

Tim


Timdog wrote:
To broken to even want to try?

One more bump for hope!


To broken to even want to try?


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Has anyone ever done/willing to do a conversion on this prestige class? This class is horrifically overpowered i think in the 3.5 version but i dig the idea. anyone game?

Becoming a Raging Hulk[edit]

The most likely candidate for raging hulk is a barbarian, though a fighter/barbarian may also choose to take levels in raging hulk to add a little firepower to his already strong attacks. Strength, Constitution and Dexterity are prime skills for this class.
Entry Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +8.
Feats Power attack, Improved Unarmed Strike
Special: Rage 3/day.
Table: The Raging Hulk
Hit Die: d12
Level Base
Attack Bonus Saving Throws Special
Fort Ref Will
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Barbarian Abilities, Improvised Weapon Proficiency, Powerful Build
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Hulk Up
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Colossal Rage +1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Colossal Stamina (DR 5/—)
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Agile Fury 1/2, Greater Improvised Weapon Proficiency +1
6th +6 +5 +2 +2 Fling, Colossal Stamina (DR 7/—)
7th +7 +5 +2 +2 Colossal Stamina (Fast Healing 4)
8th +8 +6 +2 +2 Colossal Rage +2, Colossal Stamina (DR 9/—)
9th +9 +6 +3 +3 Agile Fury 0, Greater Improvised Weapon Proficiency +2
10th +10 +7 +3 +3 Colossal Stamina (DR 11/—, Fast Healing 8), Hulk Smash
Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level)
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)..

Class Features[edit]
All of the following are class features of the raging hulk.
Barbarian Abilities: A raging hulk continues to gain rage, and its benefits, as if they were leveling in barbarian, including the improvements to the bonuses of rage and the number of rages per day. They may also add their raging hulk levels to their barbarian levels to determine the effectiveness of their Improved Uncanny Dodge if they possess it (it does not however grant it to a creature who lacks Improved Uncanny Dodge). A raging hulk does not gain the benefits of trap sense, a barbarian's damage reduction progression, indomitable will, or tireless rage.

Improvised Weapon Proficiency: A raging hulk does not take the standard -4 penalty for wielding improvised weapons.

Powerful Build (Ex): Being a raging hulk lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a raging hulk is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the raging hulk is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A raging hulk is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A raging hulk can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The raging hulk gains all of the pluses and minuses of advancing one size category (See The Monster Manual p291). The benefits of this extraordinary ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Hulk Up (Su): At 2nd level, a raging hulk can get so angry that his rage can also cause him to increase in size. He may spend an additional use of his rage ability to increase his size by one size category. Treat this as the enlarge spell for all intents and purposes except the raging hulk is treated as advancing another size category (See The Monster Manual p291). However, all this power comes consequences. While using the Hulk Up ability, the raging hulk trades brains for brawn. For every additional point of strength added, the raging hulk loses 1 point of intelligence and charisma, to a minimum of 5. There is no way to regain these lost points until the rage has ended. After the rage ends, the raging hulk regains lost intelligence and charisma at a rate of 2 per round. This ability stacks with Powerful Build

Colossal Rage (Su): At 3rd level, a raging hulk can increase his size whenever he rages. When going into any rage, a raging hulk can increase his size by one size category and 1 additional size each level starting with level 4. Treat this as the enlarge spell for all intents and purposes except the raging hulk is treated as advancing another size category (See The Monster Manual p291). This ability stacks with the raging hulks Hulk Up ability. However, for every additional point of strength added, the raging hulk loses 1 point of intelligence and charisma, to a minimum of 3. There is no way to regain these lost points until the rage has ended. After the rage ends, the raging hulk regains lost intelligence and charisma at a rate of 2 per round. The raging hulk also loses all use of feats, class skills, extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities that would require thinking (such as 'improved evasion', but not 'weapon proficiency'). When a raging hulk comes out of his colossal rage, he is treated as exhausted instead of fatigued.

Colossal Stamina (Su): At 4th level, a raging hulk becomes more durable when he is in his colossal rage, he gains Damage Reduction equal to (his raging hulk levels + 1) when he is using his colossal rage ability, at 7th level, he gains Fast Healing 4 as well, and at 10th level his Fast Healing increases to 8. This Damage reduction stacks with any other damage reduction the raging hulk may have.
Agile Fury (Ex): At 5th level, a raging hulk in a Colossal Rage can move just as well as he could when he is his normal size. The penalty to Dexterity for increasing in size is reduced by half for a raging hulk, and disappears completely at 9th level.
Greater Improvised Weapon Proficiency: At 5th level a raging hulk begins to master improvised weapons. All improvised weapons are treated as being +1 weapons. This bonus increases to +2 at 9th level.

Fling (Ex): At 6th level, a raging hulk can use its fury to throw things... really far. As a Full-Round Action, a raging hulk may throw an improvised weapon at twice its range increment, adding twice his Strength modifier to his damage roll.

Hulk Smash (Su): At 10th level, a raging hulks rage is so great, that he can unleash his fury in one devastating attack that can make mountains crumble. Once per encounter, as a Full Round Action, a raging hulk may slam the ground with great force, this is treated like the earthquake spell, except that the shock wave from the slam attack deals 5d6 plus strength mod. damage per size category bigger than medium to all creatures within 30ft per size category bigger than medium (reflex half DC=18).


Thanks for the thoughts. Quicken spell is a duh isn't it :)


Quarter staff master allows specialization. Missed the focus issue though. Hmmm. I'd like combat reflexes so good call. And yes I'm hoping I get a dex belt in time to take care of the penalty.


Has an idea for a character, seems quite strong to me, am i missing something?

Stats were rolled, and rolled VERY high, so that helps any build.

Full spell casting, full pet (who will be a dinosaur or a megafauna because he HAS TO BE based on the druid archetype) and the ability to hit like a tank himself. He’s slow on the number of attack compared to a melee class, but again, FULL casing and full pet.

Character idea: quarterstaff dual wielding druid who specializes in wildshaping into a giant. Can cast in wild shape form since it’s a humanoid, and my gear will size up with me, so no special armor or feats needed.

Level 1 stats (Human)

Str 19
Dex 18
Con 13
Wis 15
Int 11
Cha 7

Feats
1) Two weapon fighting, Weapon focus QS
3) Double slice
5) Quarterstaff master
7) Weapon specialization QS
9) Improved two weapon fighting
11) ?
13) ?
15) Greater two weapon fighting
17) Two weapon rend

Use regular ol Quarterstaff, cast Shillelagh on it, go large size = 3d6 per hit, hitting multiple times/turn due to dual wielding.

Notable steps.
Level 1: enlarge person comes active, when shillelagh is active and enlarged I’d be hitting +4/+4 for 3d6+6 per hit (weapon focus and shillelagh offset the negatives to hit from dual wielding)

Level 6: now can wildshape into a large giant (+4 str instead of +2 from enlarge and no AC penalty). Assuming a +2 str belt by now, now doing +9/+9 for 3d6 + 9 per

Level 8: finally get to BAB +6/+1, so my attacks now +11/+11/+6 same damage

Level 9: second two weapon fighting feat, so now +12/+12/+7/+7 same damage

Level 12: now as per giant form 1, so another +2 str. +16/+16/+11/+11 3d6 + 11

Level 14: can become a HUGE giant now. So another d6 damage and +2 str. +18/+18/+13/+13 4d6 + 12 per

Level 15: Ahhh yeah. 3rd attack with both sides of the staff. +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 4d6 +12 per hit.

Level 17: as long as I hit with 2 attacks, I get to add 1d10+12 damage once per round

Again, all of the above are with a NON magical quarterstaff, meaning I can sink my gold into defenses and my pet. And you know, I also have my full spell complement too – all level up attributes would go into wisdom to help with casting.

Obviously my +hit is still lowish, but hopefully some buffs like prayer and bless can be found.

Thoughts for improvments/feats for the missing two levels.


Yeah thematic wise I don't like the shield. Hmm theme vs function. ...

I'll check out cranestyle


Good morning Advice people,

I'm trying to make a character for a friend. the challenges are that it has to be pretty basic "mostly punch in face, not to much to stuff to activate/remember" and "buffy the vampire slayer" themed.

It would be starting at level 9 in a homebrew campaign but the DM allows no traits and only one archetype on the character.

The buffy inspiration is more "able to pick up and hit with a weapon, or just use her fists when she wants".

My thoughts were a snakebite brawler 6/slayer 3. Can punch with the best of them, can mix some weapons in efffortlessly, and gets some extra damage from sneak attack. I like the snakebite because it gets rid of both martial flexiblity which i don't think she'd handle very well.

I'd feat her up for feint (improved feint, two weapon feint) and basically have her able to always sneak attack via bluffing (snakebite ability to do it while moving, then give up first attack to do it while flurrying). I'd like to make her more strength based than dex based, since she ALWAYS goes dex based, but heres my issue:

how do i get her AC somewhere acceptable in light armor and only mid range dex?

Might be smarter to just skip slayer and do 3 levels unchaind rogue, therefore getting dex to damage, and just go that way. But i'd rather do this str based if i can.

Suggestions?


Rory wrote:
Timdog wrote:
Whats your thoughts on going EK for extra BAB? Would lose two levels of spell casting (one for the class to get all marital weapons, and then one for the first level of EK) so probably not worth it.

With EK, you gain +1 BAB at the cost of 2 levels of spell casting. Since the polymorphing wizard doesn't care about iteratives from higher BAB, that means it is simply +1 to hit that is lost. Typically, you can get +1 to hit with that whole level of higher spells you'd lose.

EKs advantage lies in weapon wielding instead of the polymorph path.

Timdog wrote:
Any way for a wizard to still cast while polymorphed?

You can't cast as an animal (Beast Shape I and II) or plant (Plant Shape).

You can cast as a humanoid (Alter Self), monstrous humanoid (Monstrous Physique), magical beast (Beast Shape III and IV), giant (Giant Form), dragon (Form of the Dragon), and elemental (Elemental Body).

Timdog wrote:
If I go the shape change school, would I be able to battleshape on top of a polymorph spell?

Yes. This is really powerful at lower levels, but isn't as powerful later. At later levels, you can gain claws, bite, and gore in a single form already. Plus, swift action spells start to pick up more and more power later. It also doesn't work well with Arcane Strike.

The Enhancement subschool is the opposite. It is weaker to start and gets more powerful as you gain levels due to its versatility. The 8th level ability is pretty powerful to raise saves for a round or boost spell DCs when needed.

Both options are better than the base school in my opinion.

Is the enhancement bonus really any good? They don't stack and you can usually get it via gear drops by this point


My Gm doesn't use traits :(


Thanks! Now I just need a new campaign to start ;)


If I go the shape change school, would I be able to battleshape on top of a polymorph spell?


Kaboogy wrote:
If you go wizard don't forget about the knowledge is power and multimorph discoveries. With a half decent strength and intelligence you make a formidable combat maneuver specialist. I like mixing contingency with transformation for a boost to melee abilities with this build. In general check out this nifty new guide.

Super helpful two discoveries! Thanks.

Any way for a wizard to still cast while polymorphed?


Rory wrote:

Ever consider a straight Wizard - Transmutation Specialist?

- get a permanent-like bonus to a physical stat that increases with level
- enchant your Arcane Bond Amulet of Mighty Fist for half cost
- get your best polymorph spells faster

S: 18 D: 14 C: 14 I: 14 W: 10 Ch: 8 (20 pt human, +1 STR via trans spec)

Feats:
Improved Init (human)
Toughness (1st)
Arcane Strike (3rd)
Power Attack (5th)
etc.

Enhance your defenses with long lasting buff spells: Mage Armor, False Life, Arcane Barrier, Heroism, Stoneskin, etc.

You'll make up for lower BAB by using multiple natural attacks, Heroism spell, higher than normal STR, and cheap Amulet.

Sample Strength Progression:
1st - 18 STR (17 base, +1 trans spec)
3rd - 20 STR (17 base, +1 trans spec, +2 Alter Self)
5th - 22 STR (18 base, +2 trans spec, +2 Monstrous Physique I)
7th - 24 STR (18 base, +2 trans spec, +4 Monstrous Physique II)

And if things go bad, you can always have some pretty nice spells to fall back on for range damage, area control, stealth, and/or escape.

Whats your thoughts on going EK for extra BAB? Would lose two levels of spell casting (one for the class to get all marital weapons, and then one for the first level of EK) so probably not worth it.

Although if i did dip a magus or two it would open this door the door for spell combat and spell strike...

But that probably loses the beauty of yours which is quick access to the relevant poly spells.


Rory wrote:

Ever consider a straight Wizard - Transmutation Specialist?

- get a permanent-like bonus to a physical stat that increases with level
- enchant your Arcane Bond Amulet of Mighty Fist for half cost
- get your best polymorph spells faster

S: 18 D: 14 C: 14 I: 14 W: 10 Ch: 8 (20 pt human, +1 STR via trans spec)

Feats:
Improved Init (human)
Toughness (1st)
Arcane Strike (3rd)
Power Attack (5th)
etc.

Enhance your defenses with long lasting buff spells: Mage Armor, False Life, Arcane Barrier, Heroism, Stoneskin, etc.

You'll make up for lower BAB by using multiple natural attacks, Heroism spell, higher than normal STR, and cheap Amulet.

Sample Strength Progression:
1st - 18 STR (17 base, +1 trans spec)
3rd - 20 STR (17 base, +1 trans spec, +2 Alter Self)
5th - 22 STR (18 base, +2 trans spec, +2 Monstrous Physique I)
7th - 24 STR (18 base, +2 trans spec, +4 Monstrous Physique II)

And if things go bad, you can always have some pretty nice spells to fall back on for range damage, area control, stealth, and/or escape.

Well darn. I think that's a winner :)


Witches don't have the poly spells on their list, although some patrons have some most notably the transformation patron.


Oh and I will look up that witch - I know nothing of it atm


No I really do want to emphasize the poly spells but they really suck till at least 3rd level spells so I need to fill that gap. It's a hard (imposible?) Build to do well because I honestly think the poly spells are underpowered for their level


Scott: wow. I knew some wicked druid builds were out there, and you provided one. I'm really stuck on trying to make the arcane polymorphism build work though. Maybe I can steal some of your elements though


thistledown wrote:

Are you focusing on Polymorph to enhance yourself, or to be baleful to others?

I can't help much on using it to improve yourself, but I just made an offensive polymorph specialist. Used a gnome sorcerer with Warped (Aberrant) bloodline.

For a level 3 spell, Monstrous Extremities is your best friend. Make a touch attack, they make a save or their arms (or legs) turn into non-functional wings - try wielding your sword without hands... It won't come on until Arcanist 6 though, so a bit of a wait.

Interesting spell. I could use it to give myself hooves, extra natural attacks.


Just a Mort wrote:

I think you need to decide if you want 9th level spells or you want to beatstick stuff.

I think if I were doing it I might try Sorcerer into EK and Hellknight Signifier.

Also most campaigns don't go up to level 20.

I want to beatstick stuff WITH level 9 spells :P

No, its the higher tier poly spells that interest me more - like level 5-7 spells. I was just pointing out that the build could in theory still hit level 9 spells.


Yeah bloodrager would be way better but he doesn't count as a caster till later levels so would kill the arcanist path completely. I wanted to get to the top tier polymorphism spells.

I could skip the brownfur archetype and instead do the bloodline archetype instead but I think the level 9 ability to cast poly spells on your team ates is wicked and worth the 1 sorcerer dip. And the extra +1 per die on all damage spells of the correct element is a nice bonus.

Thanks for the helm and arcane strike both good calls. Any other feats?


No advice at all?


I’ve been trying to make a melee arcane caster who relies on polymorph. This is my attempt. I am fully aware that it’s not the strongest build, I just want to know I can make THIS character better – a pure caster arcanist would be way more powerful, I get that. I just want a polymorph-based build and this is the best I’ve been able to come up with. This is a homebrew campaign btw but nothing 3rd party – basically, if its not on the pazio website it’s not allowed. Additionally, only one archetype is allowed on each character and he doesn’t like traits.

I plan to focus on spells that don’t involve saves such as shocking grasp so I don’t need a stupid high Int, but it does get up to level 9 spells at level 20.

Sorcerer/Brown Fur Arcanist/Dragon Disciple

Human
Dual talent

Starting stats (rolled)
13 14 10 17 12 12.

I was going to array them like so

Str 17 +2 human = 19
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 14 + 2 human = 16
Cha 12
Wis 10

Planning to take a +1 dex at level 4, then probably Int at 8, then str every other level.

Progression plan

Level 1 Sorcerer – dragon bloodline
Level 2 --> Level 5 Brown fur arcanist. First exploit is bloodline development
Level 6 --> 9 Dragon disciple
Level 10 --> onward Brown fur arcanist

Levels 1-4 rely on enlarge person + dragon claws (only get 4 rounds per day, this is the largest limitation, although between casting shocking grasp and the fact that my GM almost never strings together multiple combats at lower levels, I think im ok – I’ll be buffing and casting for multiple rounds so I don’t actually need the claws that much, I think). Plan to cast shocking grasp and deliver with dragon claws for extra damage.

Level 5 opens up alter self. I was thinking I could use catfolk form for claws if the 4 rounds per day just isn’t cutting it. Question: can you enlarge person on top of alter self? Regardless, I can’t see how levels 5-8 are just not going to suck. How I wish they stuck a decent polymorph spell here.

Level 8 finally the build starts to not suck with monstrous physique opening up.

Hoping the high strength will help offset the bad bab and low damage dice. At level 1, it will start at 19 + 2 when I enlarge. Level 4 gets another +2 added via the Brown fur special exploit. Level 7 gets another +2, as does level 9 from dragon disciple. Assuming a belt of +str shows up around level 6-7, I should be having about a str of 25 as of level 7, 27 by level 9. I think with monstrous physiques options for many natural attacks, I’ll be at least respectable at that level.

I plan on taking the exploits that let me cast while shapeshifted and change the shapeshift spell on the fly (I forget the specific names).

Feats are where I’m most stuck. I’m thinking weapon focus claws at level 1 to help with the low bab. Perhaps just dodge at level 3 since I won’t be an AC monster (although all the natural pluses from both bloodline and disciple will help). Perhaps combat casting as I do figure I’ll be casting touch spells defensively in combat before slashing people with my claws. With my low bab and multiple attacks, I’m not sure power attack is a good idea. Suppose I could take meta magic feats to make my touch spells hit harder. Advice?


I’ve been trying to make a melee arcane caster who relies on polymorph. This is my attempt. I am fully aware that it’s not the strongest build, I just want to know I can make THIS character better – a pure caster arcanist would be way more powerful, I get that. I just want a polymorph-based build and this is the best I’ve been able to come up with. This is a homebrew campaign btw but nothing 3rd party – basically, if its not on the pazio website it’s not allowed. Additionally, only one archetype is allowed on each character and he doesn’t like traits.

I plan to focus on spells that don’t involve saves such as shocking grasp so I don’t need a stupid high Int, but it does get up to level 9 spells at level 20.

Sorcerer/Brown Fur Arcanist/Dragon Disciple

Human
Dual talent

Starting stats (rolled)
13 14 10 17 12 12.

I was going to array them like so

Str 17 +2 human = 19
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 14 + 2 human = 16
Cha 12
Wis 10

Planning to take a +1 dex at level 4, then probably Int at 8, then str every other level.

Progression plan

Level 1 Sorcerer – dragon bloodline
Level 2  Level 5 Brown fur arcanist. First exploit is bloodline development
Level 6  9 Dragon disciple
Level 10  onward Brown fur arcanist

Levels 1-4 rely on enlarge person + dragon claws (only get 4 rounds per day, this is the largest limitation, although between casting shocking grasp and the fact that my GM almost never strings together multiple combats at lower levels, I think im ok – I’ll be buffing and casting for multiple rounds so I don’t actually need the claws that much, I think). Plan to cast shocking grasp and deliver with dragon claws for extra damage.

Level 5 opens up alter self. I was thinking I could use catfolk form for claws if the 4 rounds per day just isn’t cutting it. Question: can you enlarge person on top of alter self? Regardless, I can’t see how levels 5-8 are just not going to suck. How I wish they stuck a decent polymorph spell here.

Level 8 finally the build starts to not suck with monstrous physique opening up.

Hoping the high strength will help offset the bad bab and low damage dice. At level 1, it will start at 19 + 2 when I enlarge. Level 4 gets another +2 added via the Brown fur special exploit. Level 7 gets another +2, as does level 9 from dragon disciple. Assuming a belt of +str shows up around level 6-7, I should be having about a str of 25 as of level 7, 27 by level 9. I think with monstrous physiques options for many natural attacks, I’ll be at least respectable at that level.

I plan on taking the exploits that let me cast while shapeshifted and change the shapeshift spell on the fly (I forget the specific names).

Feats are where I’m most stuck. I’m thinking weapon focus claws at level 1 to help with the low bab. Perhaps just dodge at level 3 since I won’t be an AC monster (although all the natural pluses from both bloodline and disciple will help). Perhaps combat casting as I do figure I’ll be casting touch spells defensively in combat before slashing people with my claws. With my low bab and multiple attacks, I’m not sure power attack is a good idea. Suppose I could take meta magic feats to make my touch spells hit harder. Advice?


Big help, thanks. I've been wanting to play an arcane caster who relies on polymoprh and goes to town in melee that way, and this guide helps tons. I'll post the build for help once i get further along.

Does anyone else feel like they made the spells a step to weak though? like we should get what we get at 3rd level at second, what we get at 4th at 3rd etc? It feels like the poly spells are the way less powerful option for casters and that's too bad - it really pushes you away from making a viable build. To me.


Possibly dumb question - as a four armed gargoyle, could one choose to use a weapon in two of the hands instead of use the claw attacks? Would that make all natural attacks secondary then?


I've wanted a viable shape change (via polymoprh spells) arcane character since pathfinder but it's usually just not viable. I think the Arcanist is my best shot, but expect that it too is doomed to fail. Anyone able to prove me wrong? I think its just so MAD that it can't be done.

What about a 1 sorcerer/4 Brown fur arcanist/7 dragon disciple/rest arcanist? Could we make that work? Focusing on spells to buff mostly since DC would have to be pretty low.

Could also go eldritch heritage feat chain to pick up a second bloodline (abysall) to add more strength to the build to try and offset the weak BAB.

Any way to make this valid?


Thanks. I've really never been to those Archives so I'll look around :)
Abyssal vermin sounds promising!

Never even thought if merciful would work. Hmmmm.

I'd say swarms aren't affected by augment summons but next level I'll be getting some single target summons that will work.


Nothing? Too "not core" for people to help?


I've got a gnome sorcerer for home brew who's very good at one specific job (debuffer) but that's about it. I'm interested in fleshing him out now, but keeping in theme is more important than power. Looking for advice and perhaps any appropriate feats i may have missed along.

theme is a warped yet charismatic gnome who borders on pacifist (no direct damage spells typically, no weapons but a blow gun). Childhood event (specific to the game theme, can explain later if there is interest) warped my little developing brain and I've always identified with vermin more than anything else as a result.

I hit things with my vampiric touch first (no save) and apply my pestilence power (with a magic robe that i can use 3x/day) to give the enemy -2 on basically everything, saves being the most important to me. They get no save, auto works. Next turn i either debuff more with bestow curse or ray of exhaustion typically. I love ray of exhaustion because of the secondary effect even if they save. Great for one big bad, i usually have them poisoned and fairly crippled within about 3 turns. I'm pretty useless against groups or things immune to these kinds of attacks though as i have NO direct damage spells although i can summon a swarm to mess with people (and more summoning spells are coming). This is on purpose though, again, fluff reasons (it's tied up in my history). So i'm not asking for advice there, just showing you the whole picture.

To make things a bit more complicated, my Dm allowed the following 3.5 converted prestige class. It adds summoning spells and vermin form, which i'm very happy to be getting eventually as it gives me a melee presence, even if a bad one, its better than what i have.

Right now i'm sorcerer 7 Verminomancer 1. I will be getting a modified summon animal spell (that only has vermin options) at next level so that will give me something else to do other than debuff. I'm considering trading in my improved initiative for Spell focus conjuration and picking up the improved summoning feat at next level to make my summoned vermin tougher. My initiative is currently +12 (4 from feat, 4 from dex, 4 from familiar) which is pretty stupid high :)

Current feats:

Spell Focus (Necro)
Greater Spell Focus (Necro)
Silent Spell (allows for stealth on verbal only spells, DM approved)
Still Spell (my DM LOVES grapple and this has already saved me a few times)
Improved Initiative

I'm at +3DC on necro spells (+1 racial, +2 above feats) so I'm actually able to hit things pretty often. My CHA is +5 atm.

Current Spells (Selected for theme, not usefulness)

0 Bleed, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Detect Magic, Light, Acid Splash, Ghost Sound
1 True Strike, Mage armor, Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Charm animal
2 Ghoul Touch, Blindness/deafness, summon swarm, Spectral Hand
3 Ray of Exhaustion, Vampiric Touch, Contagion
4 Bestow Curse

Presitage class:
Verminomancer

Bloodline required: Pestilence
Con: 15 (to be healthy enough to stand the presence of the vermin and pestilence that will live inside him)

HD D6
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Vermin empathy +1 level of existing spellcasting class
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Vermin magic +1 level of existing spellcasting class
3rd +1 +1 +3 +1 Vermin shape —
4th +2 +1 +4 +1 Pestilence touch+1 level of existing spellcasting class
5th +2 +1 +4 +1 Vermin shape 2 +1 level of existing spellcasting class

Blood of Vermin: A Verminomancer adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline.

1: Vermin empathy – like wild empathy, but only with vermin. Gain a vermin familiar (got a greensting scorpion with the totally broken +4 initiative).
2: Vermin magic – gains a summon monster spell known for every spell level, but only for vermin. Will make a list of appropriate creatures for each level, mixing in swarms and giant vermin.
3: Vermin form – as per spell except lasts 1 hr per verminomancer level, and usable once/day
4: Pestilence Touch – as per below
5: vermin form 2 – as per spell and now usable twice per day.

Pestilence Touch (Ex): The verminomancer can secrete poison as a free action. His touch deals any posion/disease effect carried by vermin i.e. Fever filth from rats, spider poison, giant centipede poison etc. A successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + verminomancer level + Con modifier) saves. The verminomancer's poison cannot be harvested or saved for any purpose, but he can use it on his weapons.

Any feats that would help me hit things that are immune to my spells at this point, or just theme appropriate feats that you know of that i may have never seen?


I have not. That's an evil spell! thanks


Ack, nicholas, totally good call. Hence why we post for other brains to look at lol.

Yeah, that's a killer.


Honestly haven't decided. It'll be a two handed something, with power attack coming onboard at level 7. Mount will be pretty generic unless i stall power attack till 9 and pick up the orc "beast mount" feat at 7...

Also possible that i skip the mount part and just go with the companion part. Being mounted isn't essential for anything, may work better to just skip the mounted idea and just go with a companion. He'll still be pretty squishy after level 7 and he stops leveling though....

and even against things with immune to SA, i am still +10 str from raging + companion, +4 to hit from outflanking, plus power attack and whatever weapon enchants i have by that point... so i'm not hurting terribly.

So overwhelmingly though the feedback seems to be that an extra 1d6 SA damage every two levels (plus all the other "normal" rogue stuff) is offset by the specials that either barbarians or hunters get.


But with mount flanking, doest that solve most of the unreliability?


See that's why I want the rogue levels -/I don't depend on charge


Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Timdog wrote:
I've done mounted combat as a cavalier, was just looking at doing a different ish twist on it.
Ever try a Over run/trampling Build?

Actually, yes, im a half orc mounted on a elephant who does indeed like to overrun and trample on the way to my actual target :)


I've done mounted combat as a cavalier, was just looking at doing a different ish twist on it.


I thought of this build today based on another thread i read. It's got potential, and one big weakness that i wonder if you can help with.

2 levels barbarian\3 levels hunter\ rest half orc rogue (skulking slayer)

Point of build: Make the DM cry :P or A potent self buffer who also buffs his mount and then flanks with his mount so gets "free" sneak attacks on anyone he hits.

Barbarian Level 1: Rage +4 str and con. take feat Combat Expertise (needed for another feat later (Pack flanking))

Barbarian Level 2: Rage power: Ferocious Beast: When you rage, your companion pet does too

Hunter level 1 (3 overall): Give you and your companion an animal Focus. One of these is Bull , which gives +2 Str. Take Pack flanking feat so i now flank with my mount while riding my mount

Hunter 2 (4 overall) Outflank +4 to hit when flanking (solves BAB issues of rogue)

Hunter level 3 (5 overall): You get a free teamwork feat which automatically works on you and your companion. Take Amplified rage feat as below:

Prerequisites: Half-orc or orc, rage class feature.
Benefit: Whenever you are raging and adjacent to a raging ally who also has this feat or flanking the same opponent as a raging ally with this feat, your morale bonuses to Strength and Constitution increase by +4. This feat does not stack with itself (you only gain this bonus from one qualifying ally, regardless of how many are adjacent to you). so +10 str +8 con at this point when raging.

Feat at level 5: Take Boon companion. Companion now able to get to level 7 equivalent mount.

Rest of layers: this Half Orc rogue racial

Skulking Slayer (Rogue)

Has some good stuff, not losing much i care about, and adds this at level 3 rogue, 8 overall:

Bold Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, when a skulking slayer charges and makes a sneak attack with a two-handed weapon, she rolls d8s instead of d6s for her sneak attack damage. This ability replaces trap sense +1 and +4.

Overall quite potent I think, able to sink all into strength and wield either a reach or not two hander. However, the mount will stop advancing past level 7, so long term that's the biggest drawback of this. But those delicious sneak attack dice on top of my very impressive strength seems to be worth it.

Any way to make this better/fix the mount problem?


wait, why would you care for dex to damage? Are you really stealthing on your mount? Cause wicked but probably not needed :) Just go thug.


Dipping two or three hunter levels gets rid of the gear as they automatically share teamwork feats. Probably worth it. And they get outflank so +4 to hit which is useful to a non-full bab


Ooo the Cult leader fits pretty much bang on, thanks :)

Cult leader with dogslicers is probably where this will end up. thanks gents :)

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