|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This seems to be the Rubicon of verisimilitude to my PF1 / 5E players. It was something disliked in the PF2 Playtest.
Removing it gives more actions to doing things and less juggling gear around when your hands are full at the start of the round.
An alternative would be giving them one free Interact action per round.
I believe it was very intentional to add the action cost to make using two weapons or using a two-handed weapon challenging if you wanted to do other things in combat as well.
Would it destroy your game if you got rid of it? No. But I wouldn't do it all the same.
Releasing your grip is a free action, so starting your turn with your hands full is no more of a problem than starting with your hands empty if you are willing to drop anything that is getting in the way of what you want to do.
It is only adding a hand to something that costs one of your three actions.
yeah, basically i think the idea was to make wielding a two-handed weapon not as versatile as smaller weapons. you can't drink a potion without letting go with 1 hand of your greataxe for instance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm leaving it in because it's a whole lot better than making a bunch of edge case rules to try to make people like Magi and open-hand fighters not all use a two-hander.
It's a bit of a shame, but "Attack -> let go -> cast/grab/punch" still works so I'm happy enough.
There is no basis for it in reality, and it's in fact pretty laughable that anyone considered competent in melee combat would need 2 whole seconds just to adjust their grip on a weapon.
The game isn't unplayable with this RAW, but it's pretty goofy. I'd make the change to free action.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I hate this. They could have balanced two handed weapons in other ways. They should have. They didn't and that's a huge flaw in the game. Maybe a good solution is removing two handed weapons entirely.
If the round was split into 6 actions(for 6 seconds), I would be all for having attack cost 2 actions, and drawing weapons/adjusting grip costing 1 action.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's needed for balance. Otherwise spellcasters would be better off with 2-h weapons. So: no not for me.
A compromise might be to let someone grip or let go as a free action once per round.
That eliminates the flapping hand syndrome folks are worried about, but also allows some degree of flexibility. If you start a round two-handing and let go as a free to do something else with that hand, you can't go back to two-handing without spending an action. The next round, you can re-grip for free, but can't let go again without spending an action.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am more on the balance side of things also.
Part of the problem of course is more where in earlier rule systems making a caster using a two handed weapon was actually easier than one using one-handed and shield. Having bows as a 1+ handed doesn't help the case when they can do the cast and shoot in the same combat round.
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of this rule at first but after more exposure to the rules I see where it matters to the balance.
To give a particular example, bastard swords are a lot less attractive compared to greatswords if you can regrip for free.
How about:
If you use two hands on a weapon, your hands can't do anything else that round.
If you spend an action that uses one hand, then you can't spend an action using two hands that round.Cast a spell with one hand? Then you can't use that hand to also swing a weapon.
That's a straight nerf in many cases, though. For example, assuming the classic Skald-like bard wielding a greatsword and a hunting horn, it prevents them from casting inspire courage and attacking in the same round, when they otherwise could (let go of greatsword, inspire courage, regrip greatsword, attack).
It also the prevents the much more common reverse case, where said two-hander bard has just attacked and now wants to let go of their weapon with one hand to use inspire courage.
1e had that sort of "committed hands" rule, and it was wonky; I don't think we need to bring it back.
There is no basis for it in reality, and it's in fact pretty laughable that anyone considered competent in melee combat would need 2 whole seconds just to adjust their grip on a weapon.
The game isn't unplayable with this RAW, but it's pretty goofy. I'd make the change to free action.
Ah yes, the fact that the Alien Shapeshifter with a Flying Pet Mushroom takes too long to grip their spear is what makes the game goofy and unrealistic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone's talking about two-handed weapons but what really happens if you make changing your grip a free action is that the bastard sword becomes the unopposed optimal martial weapon for any character that isn't doing maneuvers. Best of both worlds at no cost.
Reloading a crossbow requires removing a hand from a grip, and a crossbow requires two hands. Once you realize that, the tax for shifting handedness just breaks any concept of logic entirely.
Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
Reloading a crossbow requires removing a hand from a grip, and a crossbow requires two hands. Once you realize that, the tax for shifting handedness just breaks any concept of logic entirely.Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.
So,
let's go with hand crossbow, 1 action reload.
and you already have free hand.
In one action you crank the crossbow, then draw the bolt, then place the bolt on the crossbow.
I can tell from personal experience that it takes 20× longer to reload a crossbow than re gripping a sword.
Reloading a crossbow requires removing a hand from a grip, and a crossbow requires two hands. Once you realize that, the tax for shifting handedness just breaks any concept of logic entirely.Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon.So,
let's go with hand crossbow, 1 action reload.
and you already have free hand.In one action you crank the crossbow, then draw the bolt, then place the bolt on the crossbow.
I can tell from personal experience that it takes 20× longer to reload a crossbow than re gripping a sword.
still probably costs you a swing compared to the guy wielding a shortsword while you both chugs your potion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules are about balance, not simulating reality.
Any appeals to "this is how it works in reality" miss that very important facet. The developers made this rule because they thought it was needed from a mechanical perspective.
The rules are about balance, not simulating reality.
Any appeals to "this is how it works in reality" miss that very important facet. The developers made this rule because they thought it was needed from a mechanical perspective.
Yes, you need the suspension of disbelief to play the game by the rules especially turn based game but some rules just slaps you across the face and return you instantly to reality. Like this. And Volley.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't find either rule particularly offensive to my sensibilities.
I don't find either rule particularly offensive to my sensibilities.
Not offended by that at all.
I was just: WHAT?!?! when I 1st time came across it.
Re-gripping Strike
(Class Feat 2)
(Flourish)
As a single action, you Interact to change the grip from holding a two-handed weapon with one hand to wielding it with two hands, then Strike.I'd say Barbarian, Champion, and Fighter.
You could also just rule that Dual-Handed Assault lets you choose to keep your grip afterwards. Although I suppose you would also need to allow it on two-handed weapons, without any damage increase.
Something like this:
Dual-Handed Assault (1 action)
(Fighter Feat 4)
(Flourish)
Requirements: You are holding a melee weapon in one hand and your other hand is free.
You snap your free hand over to grip your weapon just long enough to add momentum and deliver a more powerful blow to your opponent. Make a Strike with the required weapon. You quickly switch your grip during the Strike in order to make the attack with two hands. If the weapon is one-handed and doesn’t normally have the two-hand trait, increase its weapon damage die by one step for this attack. (Rules on increasing die size appear on page 279.) If the weapon has the two-hand trait, you gain the benefit of that trait and a circumstance bonus to damage equal to the weapon’s number of damage dice. If the weapon is two-handed, you gain no special benefit on the Strike. When the Strike is complete, you may keep your grip or resume gripping the weapon with only one hand. This action doesn’t end any stance or fighter feat effect that requires you to have one hand free as long as you don't choose to keep your grip.
Re-gripping Strike
(Class Feat 2)
(Flourish)
As a single action, you Interact to change the grip from holding a two-handed weapon with one hand to wielding it with two hands, then Strike.I'd say Barbarian, Champion, and Fighter.
That's a good solution, thanks for sharing.
|
Re-gripping Strike
(Class Feat 2)
(Flourish)
As a single action, you Interact to change the grip from holding a two-handed weapon with one hand to wielding it with two hands, then Strike.I'd say Barbarian, Champion, and Fighter.
Rather than create it just as a class feat for each of the melee types, I propose this:
Re-gripping Strike
(General Feat 1)
(Requirement: Expert skill in the weapon)
(Flourish)
As a single action, you Interact to change the grip from holding a two-handed weapon with one hand to wielding it with two hands, then Strike.
Re-gripping Strike
(Class Feat 2)
(Flourish)
As a single action, you Interact to change the grip from holding a two-handed weapon with one hand to wielding it with two hands, then Strike.I'd say Barbarian, Champion, and Fighter.
Rather than create it just as a class feat for each of the melee types, I propose this:
Re-gripping Strike
(General Feat 1)
(Requirement: Expert skill in the weapon)
(Flourish)
As a single action, you Interact to change the grip from holding a two-handed weapon with one hand to wielding it with two hands, then Strike.
Well... I just think no one would pick this level 11 or so. I would rather see it as a class feat.
|
|
Well... I just think no one would pick this level 11 or so. I would rather see it as a class feat.
It's level 1, not level 11. I set it low so that whenever you become Expert you qualify. Fighters start at Expert and Barbarian and Champion get it at 5th level. The non-martial classes take a bit longer, but they can also take it if they want. A Wizard may want to grip his staff with 2 hands for the extra damage.
It's level 1, not level 11. I set it low so that whenever you become Expert you qualify. Fighters start at Expert and Barbarian and Champion get it at 5th level. The non-martial classes take a bit longer, but they can also take it if they want. A Wizard may want to grip his staff with 2 hands for the extra damage.
Well... I just think no one would pick this level 11 or so. I would rather see it as a class feat.
It's a level 7 feat for most martials(Except fighters that as human can start with it level 1 or non human fighters that can grab it level 3) and a level 11 feat for anyone who isn't a martial...
In case you didn't get it, you can't retrain earlier feats for general feats with requirements you didn't meet at the time. So what you are doing is basically making fighters the guys who already got ways to do it become even better at it while making the rest wait more to get that... I would rather just make a class feat at level 2 that every martial who needs can get(At most level 4 with dedication and a basic feat for non martials) than instead make people wait until a high level to make the build work.
Edit: Just saying i still think it isn't a good idea. As a bastard sword is already good and would instead become just a better weapon...