Given the fact a barbarian will go with a 2h with 2h, it doesn't change a thing.
It is just an exploit to remove clumsy.
As said before, not needed.
Eventually, with 1 hand and another hand free as you suggested, is 2ven worse, because you will have access to ALL maneuvers and no penalty to str checks.
- full damage ( same damage as a 2h ). Instead of a dice increment.
- full maneuvers ( you will have all yhe maneuvers, and won't be limited by the weapon type )
You can see them from different points, and still they remain unjustified buffs.
There is no reason to give stuff like that, and fortunately seems that game developers decided otherwise.
If the size increase, just add +2 flat damage.
The players should be happy about both balance and flavor.
If they can't be happy because their weapon gets a +2 instead of an extra D12 the issue is your players.
A barbarian will also 10 extra free reach, and the clumsy condition will remain 1.
The barbarian will be the only class with reach 15 with any weapon ( reach 20 with polearms ), which means he could use axes for swipe while benefit with 15 feet reach.
With a polearm you will have a 20 reach whirlwind attack.
No need to buff even more an already competitive and broken ( because reach in this version is broken ) build.
Also you can't concede to use 2h weapons with 1 hand because of weapon trait balance.
Finally, companion extra dice are the extra dice you get from the weapon enhancements...
I also agree it is intentional.
Slower focus recovery progression and missing improved recovery.
Even though the slower focus progression means nothing.
As a champion I can unlock it by lvl 10, and still I don't have the next step.
A monk will unlock it by lvl 14 and will also get the third step by lvl 18.
Probably some classes are meant to have just the second step.
Captain Morgan wrote:
Not entirely true.
1) a fighter can forgo his secondary hit at full power by using a shield as second weapon for double slice.
Having the secondary double slice attack with a -2, but in exchange the possibility to have raise shield ac and shield block, could be worth it.
Not saying it is a must, but the alternative is real and good.
Same goes with reactive shield, if you need to save actions instead of reactions. Really balanced to have both.
2) twin feint is good in s 1v1 scenario since you will get your secondary attack flat footed, but you can also get it by positioning, feint, and so in.
This to say that a thief could go for double slice too.
In my opinion is good to have more than 1 possibility.
Also, if the rogue is intended to fight more than social stuff, he will definitely go for the fighter dedication.
The acro feats are not for thr check itself but to avoid being caught out of guard from
- balance checks.
Excellent feats for a warrior.
Reducing falling damage is also good at low lvls, bur at high lvls could not be worth it. Eventually you could replace it.
Also as a champion of Shelyn, i feel comfortable with being agile even without dex ( due to enhanced performance and agile stuff ).
Also Crawl ing fast and balancing stuff is combat training too, so even if under acrobatics checks is worth for any warrior.
A rogue has less hp and damage mitigation.
A fighter starts with shield block, and through a stance could always have his shield raised at some point.
He will be also proficient in heavy armor, which means a better armor than s thief.
I suggest you not to tank, and instead positioning yourself to get flat footed for both attacks, but indeed you could work on const + armor proficiency.
The point is that a rogue is not a frontliner, and because of that he should hit less time if compared to a fighter.
You will be using your friend to flank or to create a diatraction.
If you are going to tank there is something wrong with your character, or your party.
Or, if you want to tank, you should at least consider a dedication which allows you to do so.
Using a shield with a shield block reaction, getting more hp, and eventually some plate proficiency which will give you extra armor until lvl 19.
Apart from that, a rogue is not meant to be hit a hundred times per round, so by having a life Saver as a reaction, which leaves him the possibility to use 2 attacks, or twin feint, and a step, is definitely a thing.
The feat is ok
If you don’t like it go with a shield or with the dueling parry from a fighter dedication. Or eventually twin parry. Or a parry weapon. Or reactive shield. Etc...
The whole game is full of choices, and the nimble dodge is good, since it is a reaction, and because so an action less to spend.
You won't necessarily be hit,and eventually nor even targeted.
But if this happens you can decide or not to rely on that feat.
Definitely good to have.
To make it even more clear
-Unarmed > no defense (afaik)
-1 weapon/1 free hand
a) 1 action, if the weapon has parry, to gain +1 circ AC
b) 1 action, with dueling parry, with the fighter class feat to gain +2 circ AC
a) 1 action, if the weapon has parry, to gain +1 circ
b) 1 action, with twin parry, with the fighter/ranger class feat ( no parry weapons ), to gain +1 circ AC
c) 1 action, with twin parry, with the fighter/ranger class feat ( one of the weapons has parry trait ), to gain +2 circ AC.
a) 1 action to raise shield, to gain from +1 to +2 circ AC depends your shield.
It is simple and logical.
No need imo neither to discuss nor to find "an hidden roleplaying explanation because the developers decided to make it a manipulate action without adding that it doesn't provoke aoo".
Those both still sound like "because this is how it works" not "this is _why_ it is designed like this".
Not at all.
It seems more that you are having hard time to figure out why they decided to do that way.
It is not even armor or weapon, but both. So it was not an error of them, but a deliberately choice.
Other than pointing out their reasons, and discuss them, there is nothing else we can do.
To me was easy.
A fighter can easily get 1 down with power attack.
+9 hit and 2d12+4 dmg.
Or if with a shield,
+9 hit and 2d8/10 +4 dmg.
And a shield block reaction.
Rogue/ranger/ monk can do the same
Barbarian has way more hp and temp hp.
However, at low lvls you simply need to share bucks to enhance your fighter greatsword asap.
You will be likely able to get a +1 Striking greatsword by lvl 2 or 3.
The thread title mentions Smite Evil, so I thought I'd add that Blade of Justice and Smite Evil can be used together. So for 3 actions against an evil creature, you get +2 damage dice, +4/6 good damage, and +CHAmod persistent.
Ye but that was not correct.The thread is made of few words.
The point was to discuss about action economy and efficiency, comparing 2 attacks vs a blade of justice attack.
However, I decided to take 2x attacks and focus myself on focus points instead ( with lvl 3 arcane spellcasting ).
The GM can handle a dog or wolf or even a bear but with all the horse stats.
Same attacks, hp, bonuses etc...
You will be then able to ride whatever you want, but not to exploit by having both a combat companion and a mount companion.
You will renouce to knockdown, grab, and so on.
A dm giving free mount perk without trade doesn't really know about balance, and how the companion archetypes are balanced.
On the other hand, a player who pretend to have both the combat companion benefits and the mount traits doesn't understand the balance too.
A simply reskin is what you are looking for. Nothing more, nothing less.
Unless unbalanced trades.
We also have to remember that it is part of how retraining works.
The fact you can benefit from a specific general feat till lvl 13/14 means that the feat is great.
You can then untrain it in order to take something better, and maybe achieve a better proficiency by investing into some dedications.
Like the fleet feat, or nimble elf, which can be powerful at the beginning, but maybe not so good lategame.
Or on the other hand, toughness.
Same goes with ancestry and class feats.
N N 959 wrote:
Indeed, but it describe Flourish moves as something wide, which requires too much exertion.
That's why the Flurry is not a strike but 2x. You can't interrupt part of the action.
Like Sudden Charge or shield of reckoning. Once you declare the flourish action you do the whole stuff.
But it would.
What you can do is a homerule, if the current rulest is not what you are looking for.
But if the whole discussion is about the role of general stuff, then, since the rules are this way, you can just try to figure out why they did that way instead of what you think it would be "right to do".
You will definitely waste your second attack.
It is an attack with the Flourish trait
Flourish actions are actions that require too much exertion to perform a large number in a row. You can use only 1 action with the flourish trait per turn
So, the moment it starts, it executes the whole stuff.
If one hit is ok you waste the other.
Well, a crowbar is the thievery tool for those who use athetics.
A fishing line could be useful if your DM asks you how you want to gathered food ( imagine after a shipwreck on an island with no food ).
All this stuff could be used by both roleplayers and min max characters.
The question is
"How much time do you want to invest in stocking stuff and to manage it? "
A katar has the deadly trait that fists don't have.
It has a different type of dmg.
It doesn't have the finesse trait ( so you will be relying on str ).
It can be made out of special materials, like Silver and Cold Iron.
It also has the knife specialization, which deals persistant dmg.
Depends your monk setup, it could or couldn't be a good weapon for you.
Ok but the point was to build a character, not to meta.
I think I will join a paladin order to get the armor proficiency, then I will go slaughter women and children.
You forget that champion is not a defender of light, and that we will see Soon more tennets for both neutral and evil characters.
So while i do agree that currently you have to fight for the good side, it is also true that it is something temporary.
They could have given that perks to fighters too. But to use at least 2 class feat to unlock expert would be mandatory.
@megistone: it is always about a trade and balance. Or else I won't need to go with a fighter dedication, as a champion, to learn how to give a power attack. This could be silly too, but here the fighter is the one who has the right to use a power attack move.
I am currently facing some doubts about the new modifies about paladin abilities.
Here the current scenario:
I am all set with my character, apart from lvl 10, 12 and 20 class feats.
I will be using a glaive, and what concerns me more is the blade of justice ability.
I find that perk not very useful, mostly because it is a power attack which only works with evil enemies.
I could convert the damage to good dmg and add the divine smite even to not evil character, but would be way more useful to use 2x strike instead.
What do you think?
Also, if instead decide to take blade of justice i will also take both radiant blade spirit and radiant blade master, which are probably not the best deal.
On the other hand I could take a lvl 9 sorc dedication and lvl 10 Basic spellcasting, lvl 12 expert spellcasting and lvl 20 master spellcasting. Arcane spellcasting because of haste, untill i will get the quickened weapon rune, and because of ring of wizardly, which will enhance my spells, allowing me to save a class feat for divine bredth.
I am 99% with this second build, but I just wanted to know your thoughts towards blade of justice in comparison to 2x strike.
It is the opposite.
You have to invest in a dedication to get better bonuses than a general training.
You seem to miss the point that it is not related to only armors or weapons.
A barbarian, in order to get power attack, has to take fighter dedication.
And the dedication feat is useless for him.
He has to literaly throw a feat to unlock power attack, with another class feat, and eventually invest his lvl 12 feat to take furious focus.
He also has to have 14 dex tp dedication, so he would not perfectly suited for a no dex build.
As you can see whatever the progression you decide to pursue it is always a matter or choices.
You have to sacrifice something in order to get something else.
And general feats, as skill feats, are worth nothing in terms of trade, if not for generic stuff.
You fire a ray of burning sunlight from your weapon. You must be wielding a sword or spear to cast sun blade, and you perform this spell’s somatic component with the weapon. Make a spell attack roll. The ray deals 1d4 fire damage. If the target is evil, the ray deals an additional 1d4 good damage, and if the target is undead, the ray deals an additional 1d4 positive damage (both effects apply against creatures that are both evil and undead). If you are in an area of bright natural sunlight, increase the die size of each damage die by one step (from d4 to d6).
Another example about how champions are not bonded to their deity favored weapon.
The whole point imho is that general feats are not intended to bypass class feats or eventually ancestry feats ( from 2 to 3 perks per weapon/weapon subgroup ).
It is a big deal to sacrifice 2 class feats ( dedication + a lvl 14 feat ), not to mention tennets and oaths.
General training shouldn't give you more proficiency than the Basic one, because it is what it's meant for.
I don't really understand the problem.
General training gives you the Basic
A dedication or ancestry allows you to dig in even further, because of heritage or specific training.
And what would be the difference?
1 more AC if you are expert ( compared to expert unarmed ).
Is it worth 2 class feats and eventually some oath/tennet? You simply have a choice.
I think what the general feats should do would be to provide a generic option, that's "good enough" for almost everyone. But specialized feats for specific archetypes, would do their special thing better than the general feats.
Also, retraining is meant for stuff like this.
You could take armor proficiency through general feats because low lvl class feats are required for something else, then when close to thr passage from trained to expert, you could consider retraining, in order to get better proficiency ( now that you will have more class feats ).
General feats are general.
To me it is ok.
It is the same as armors.
In terms of potency we have
Class feats ( 1st tier )
It is then simply Normal that general feats are way less performants than ancestry and class feats, whenever it comes to the same topic.
You are given different choices to wear different armors and weapons, but what you have to sacrifice is some ( not one ) high tier ( not low ) feats.
Same goes with stats, if you Plan to take a dedication.
Want to go with a 0 dex character because you won't benefit from dex by wearing a full plate and you prefer to invest them somewhere else? Say goodbye to ranger, monk, rogue and fighter dedication.
What I probably would allow, and it is strange it is not allowed by default, is to change your stats too through training.
But apart from that, it is definitely not about bad customization.
The trade between stuff is real and balanced. Has Pros and Cons, and they have already been explained. The choices are rough, and they are intended to be that way.
They are fine, and they are meant to be balanced around all the classes.
Monk and champ will be tier 1
Fighters will be tier 2
All the other combat classes will be tier 3
All spellcasters will be tier 4
You can exploit by taking a dedication which let you use a heavy armor, but you won't go past lvl 18 in terms of higher ac.
And it is good to have higher AC until you hit lvl 19. Or forever, if you are a spellcaster.
By lvl 19 you will find yourself with 1 less armor, with some advantages:
- you would have played your way till 19 with 1 more ac. So the whole game.
- no need to put points in dex. So more points to put in other stats
- 3 bonus against aoe dmg effects, if wearing a plate.
Ps: if your point instead is to appear as a plate user, I would as gm let you have that appareance regardless the armor. If it is instead because of a +1 be my guest.
That would be overpower as hell.
The most similar to your needs is the animal one, which has less dmg and 2 resistances ( no choice. They will always be slashing and piercing ).
Not to mention that, if you check all of them, the instincts are meant for the specific enemies of that instinct.
Animals will deal you mostly piercing and slashing dmg.
Dragons will deal piercing and that dragon elemental dmg
Fury will deal with other tribes, which will use weapons.
Giants will deal bludgeoning dmg ( hammer and boulders ) and the element of that specific giant
Spirito will deal negative energy and special effects.
I guess I'm saying "extinguish" was a poor choice of words and should be "obscure"---which Webster actually gives as a meaning for "extinguish," so maybe I'm just saying that taking that meaning over "quench" is mandatory.
I think the same.
After Eclipse ends his effect, everything else is supposed to return the way it was.
It is darkness vs light, not a breeze or a gust of wind.
Creatures and objects in the area must attempt a Reflex save.
And The results are
A torch, as any other font of light, will probably be obliteratd.
1 type of damage could be enough, but trading thr other dmg resistance to gain resistance to all weapons, regardless the type of damage, is fine.
Many barbarians won't be able to use their reduction during an encounter. A rage barbarian is probably the one who will benefit from reduction the most.
Fury seems to be the well balanced instinct
And it works fine if compared to the other 4 kind of rage.
I feel exactly the same.
Talking about some stuff, wider choices would have been appreciated.
But even this way it is perfect.
I am enjoy mostly the 3 action system and the dedication system.
Some stuff shines late game, and I have to admit it worries me because I am mostly used to play between 1-12 lvl, but with this system there is definitely no issue in going further.
I am looking forward to master a high lvl campaign.
Champion gives you 2 skills.
Barbarian gives you 1 skill and rage
Fighter gives you 1 skill
So both champion and barbarian ( as well ranger ) are ok.
If you think that fighter is not worth it because he will only give you a skill, don't pursue that path.
But we both know that you will, because fighter has the widest melee feats possible, so it is the juciest.
I won't get anything with spellcasting too, cause cantrip are useless and i won't be using them no matter what.
As you see, the point you are trying to make is not objective, but merely subjective ( thanks for the reward spoiler though ).
Some dedications could not be the best choice for a specific class, or eventually a specific template.
But there is no problem at all.
As a spellcaster I will be using a lvl 4 spell by lvl 12. Worthless. But Hey, nobody is forcing me.
Also I wouldn't ne able to use dedication spells as caster dps because of laughable dc and low dmg.
Those are issues which needs to be addressed. Because currently the only meaning of a caster dedication is to use buffs or true strike.
And you are Angry at fighter and ranger feats? Lucky guy.
Any class loses a feat for a dedication.
Since a barbarian doesn't have a strong single target attack, fighter dedication is imho a must.
About twin takedown, it is a strong single target attack ( more than power attack, untill furious focus ), so using an action to track your prey us totally worth it, since it will be 1 roll with no map for both attacks.
Relentless stalker is a reaction which allows you to follow your target. You will be saving a stride action.
Not mandatory, but an extra choice ( since aoo won't occour 100%of the times ).
As you can see, both dedications are viable.
You simply don't find balanced the fact that you won't get stuff from the fighter dedication since you already have it.
I say, given the bonuses is still worth it. Definitely.
Barbarian gets aoo by lvl 6No need to take any dedication
He could take fighter for power attack and furious focus though.
Ranger dedication offers twin Takedown and relentless stalker. Also many ranged feats. Hunter prey too.
To me both are definitely ok.
To me it is more an habbit issue.
People are used to PF1 or other games where multiclassing was something meant to create op stuff by trying to take the best from classes.
Here you have your main class, which can be stuffed with some minor perks from other classes.
There are 2 differences here ( not issues, but simply differences ).
1) your dedication class will be 1/2 your lvl. Which means that by lvl 20 you will be able to take a lvl 10 dedication class feat.
2) the more you proceed, the better your main class talents.
What can a character take from a dedication?
Minor perks which enhances his main class gameplay.
They sacrifice their legendary casting proficiency and get expert and master quite a bit later than other casters. Even ignoring spell attack and spell DC, this makes their buffs easier to dispel and can give them a hard time counteracting anything.
Master to legendary is a 2 point difference ( eventually 3 depends the apex at end game levels ), which is not that much. Even in terms of dc.
Is is worse than a spell dmg cleric, but it is definitely good.
About dispells, i see them like aoo from monsters.
Not every monsters will have a chance to do them, and even if, the outcome would not necessarily be bad.
Warpriests are in a overpower hybrid spot, because they don't sacrifice anything in terms of spellcasting.
They can get a great boost to their abilities by using heroism and they can also support, healing, control, or even dps.
In my opinion they are totally fine and don’t need anything else. There are plenty of dps classes, and a hybrid should be a jack of the trade ( and a warpriest is not ).
I am all up for non dex characters, unless swifty and sneaky fellas.
To wear a plate you will be needing a moderate amount of Str, and eventually end up to get a mithril armor to lower the score needed and the speed penalty.
The dex/str trade is perfectly fine imo.
And because of the 4x increment of stats, you will be likely to get enough points for everything.
Edit: i realized now i read wrong your proposta. I thought from expert to master by lvl 18 instead of armor specialization.
That could be ok. It won't change much also because of the lvl you will get it.
Well explained ans totally agree, apart from armor lvl 18 feat.
By being expert in heavy armor you trade 1 AC ( eventually you will have master with light or medium armor, which will give e you 1 more AC than expert + heavy armor ) for the no need of dex.
Eventually, a caster could get 1 more ac with plates, but that's it.